Another week spent trying to figure out what level of schadenfreude is appropriate

by liberal japonicus

This Graniaud piece caught my eye.

A group of men removed from the US to Djibouti, in east Africa, are stranded in a converted shipping container together with the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (Ice) officers sent to supervise them after a deportation flight to South Sudan was stopped by an American court.

The eight deportees and 13 Ice staff have begun to “feel ill”, the US government said.

Eight men, from Latin America, Asia and South Sudan, and the Ice staff have been stuck at a US naval base since late May. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) said that the Ice officers began to fall ill “within 72 hours of landing” in Djibouti, and continue to suffer from suspected bacterial upper respiratory infections.

[...]

Mellissa Harper, a top official at the DHS and Ice, said in a court declaration that the detainees are being held in a shipping container that was previously converted into a conference room. The Ice officers are “sharing very limited sleeping quarters”, Harper said, with only six beds between 13 people.

In the declaration, Harper said burn pits in Djibouti have led to Ice officials experiencing “throat irritation”. She said the outside temperature frequently exceeds 100F (38C) in the daytime, and said Ice officials were at risk of malaria because they did not take anti-malaria medication before arriving in Djibouti.

“Within 72 hours of landing in Djibouti, the officers and detainees began to feel ill,” Harper said, but they were unable to obtain proper testing for a diagnosis.

Harper added: “Upon arrival in Djibouti, officers were warned by US Department of Defense officials of imminent danger of rocket attacks from terrorist groups in Yemen. The Ice officers lack body armor or other gear that would be appropriate in the case of an attack.”

I'd like to think that guys in ICE might rethink their career choices seeing how little thought goes into their safety. More importantly, why does the Guardian write it as Ice rather than ICE?

Comments

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"why does the Guardian write it as Ice rather than ICE?"

Because they're melting? Because they should be liquidated?
Because it's pronounced "ice", rather than I.C.E.?

Take your pick.

[Pro Bono]

Because it's the Grauniad?

Isn't it obvious to bring them all back to the USA while the legal issues get sorted?

[wj]

Isn't it obvious to bring them all back to the USA while the legal issues get sorted?

Better yet, just slap a 150% tariff on the Guardian. Including, natch, electronic versions. (Never mind that there is no practical way to implement tariffs on electrons.) That will force them to chance their policies, and write stuff in English!

[JanieM]

Guardian style guide entry for acronyms and abbreviations:

Do not use full points in abbreviations, or spaces between initials, including those in proper names: IMF, mph, eg, 4am, M&S, No 10, AN Wilson, WH Smith, etc.

Use all capitals if an abbreviation is pronounced as the individual letters (an initialism): BBC, CEO, US, VAT, etc; if it is an acronym (pronounced as a word) spell out with initial capital, eg Nasa, Nato, Unicef, unless it can be considered to have entered the language as an everyday word, such as awol, laser and, more recently, asbo, pin number and sim card. Note that pdf and plc are lowercase.

If an abbreviation or acronym is to be used more than once in a piece, put it in brackets at first mention: so Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), seasonal affective disorder (Sad); alternatively, use the abbreviation with a brief description, eg the conservation charity the RSPB. Remember that our international online readership will not necessarily be aware of even well-known UK abbreviations. If an organisation is mentioned only once, it is not necessary to give its abbreviation or acronym.

Cap up single letters in such expressions as C-list, F-word, “the word assassin contains four Ss”, etc.

Ice, Nato, UN, US, EU.....

[JanieM]

Not saying I approve of it..... ;-)

[Hartmut]

ICE agents are bringing in a new Ice Age. No surprise since their masters do not tolerate the idea of global warming. On the other hand they produce so much hot air that the effect of their agents is partially compensated - and they are already compensating for so much.

[JanieM]

The Ice [sic] officers lack body armor or other gear that would be appropriate in the case of an attack.

And whether the prisoners might be at risk of a rocket attack without any protective gear is not even worth mentioning.

[wj]

Not worth mentioning because what else would anyone expect from these scum?

[JanieM]

Also this: The Ice officers are “sharing very limited sleeping quarters”, Harper said, with only six beds between 13 people.

Gee, I wonder how many beds the kidnapped people have to share... If any.

Drumming up sympathy for the poor, put-upon, mistreated kidnapping thugs of I C E.......hell of a prestigious job she's got there.

[liberal japonicus]

Thanks Janie. I know it's not great to worry about acronyms while Rome burns, but not capitalizing them obscures where they come from, which I do not approve of.

[JanieM]

lj -- totally agree with you.

[Pro Bono]

The Guardian's style guide is nuts (which should be "NUTS" if it stands for "Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics"). But credit to JanieM for looking it up.

[JanieM]

Concerning worrying about acronyms while Rome burns, a memorable exchange from Crooked Timber from long ago:

Henry: ‘reticence’ does not mean ‘reluctance’ – I admit that I am losing this linguistic battle and am likely irrational on the topic, but am going to hold out as long as I possibly can).

geo: Fight on, Henry! As Karl Kraus observed during the Japanese bombardment of Shanghai: “If those who are supposed to look after commas had made sure they are always in the right place, Shanghai would not be burning.”

Not at all sure I agree with geo, but the comment has stuck with me for all these years...

http://crookedtimber.org/2012/04/02/seminar-on-debt-the-first-5000-years-reply/

[Pro Bono]

I tried, and failed, to find some specifics of Musk's objections to Trump's Big, Ugly Bill. There seem not to be any available. But the indications are that he objects not to the suicidal tax cuts for the megarich, but to insufficient cruelty towards the poor. He's not personally quite as vile as Trump, but he's at least as wrong about everything.

I note that whereas he's now calling Trump something equivalent to "pedo guy", he didn't seem to mind that while he thought he might be able to get Trump onside with his budget views.

[JanieM]

Pro Bono:

Zoom in: The sources familiar with the Trump-Musk relationship say there appeared to be four inflection points that led to his caustic attack on Trump's bill:

1. The legislation cuts the electric vehicle tax credit that helps car makers like Musk's Tesla. As of late April, his company had spent at least $240,000 lobbying on behalf of the credit and other company matters. Behind the scenes, sources say, Musk also advocated for the measure in the legislation, but to no avail.

2. Musk was working at the White House as what's called a "special government employee," and he had discussed trying to stay in that role beyond the 130-day time limit set by statute for the unpaid advisory position. But ultimately, White House officials said he couldn't keep serving in that capacity.

3. Musk also wanted the Federal Aviation Administration to use his Starlink satellite system for national air traffic control, the sources said. But the administration balked at it because of the appearance of a conflict of interest and for technological reasons. "You can't have air traffic control just run off satellites," the second source said.

4. The final straw for Musk appeared to come Saturday night, when Trump abruptly announced he was withdrawing the nomination of Jared Isaacman, a Musk ally, to be NASA administrator.

From here, for what it's worth.

[Pro Bono]

Thanks. Excuse me if I'm sceptical that this administration could GAF about the appearance of a conflict of interest.

[JanieM]

I don't buy the conflict of interest stuff either, but the question was what pissed Musk off about the bill.

It's pretty plausible that what pissed him off in a general sort of way is that they failed to hand him everything he wanted wrapped up with a nice bow on top, and I would assume that they did that because he was getting too big for his britches and needed to be taught just who was in charge.

[Pro Bono]

I'm sure you're right. I want to make the point that there is no sense in which Musk is on the side of right. D's should absolutely not see him as any sort of a potential ally.

[JanieM]

I agree completely. In fact, as to this from your previous comment: He's not personally quite as vile as Trumpg -- I'm not entirely convinced that that's true.

I agree that Skummy is at least as wrong about everything, but in some ways he seems to me to be even more vile, because he's more soulless. To treat people as badly as he does, Clickbait has to at least, in some sense however elementary, realize that they exist. I don't think Skummy has any clue that other people are real, or that it might matter in any way to him that they are.

It doesn't matter; it's just a thought game on my part, and most of the time I try hard to think about something else instead.

[JanieM]

Along with those poor put-upon agents in Djibouti (who put it upon them, I'd like to know...), there's a press release about those poor put-upon agents in the LA area today:

DHS Releases Statement on Violent Rioters Assaulting ICE Officers in Los Angeles, CA and Calls on Democrat Politicians to Tone Down Dangerous Rhetoric About ICE

"Democrat politicians" -- maybe this immature playground jibe is as trivial and useless as concern about acronyms, or maybe it's just one of the many tiny bricks that helped them build this edifice in which we're all now living.

[wj]

"DHS calls. . . to tone down dangerous rhetoric"

As so often, every accusation from these lowlifes is a confession.

[liberal japonicus]

posted without commment

https://www.thedailybeast.com/musk-hit-rival-like-a-rugby-player-during-infamous-white-house-fight/

[Donald]

I guess this fight with the Treasury Secretary establishes that Musk was wise to avoid the bjj contest with Mark Zuckerberg.

We are all living in Joe Rogan’s world now. ( I like Rogan when he is just talking about fighting— nowadays that would give him expertise as a pundit in a situation where infighting between Washington bureaucrats literally means infighting.)

[Pro Bono]

Is it worse to treat people horribly because you don't acknowledge their humanity, or because you do?

My answer: they're both worse, each in its own way.

[nous]

What’s the current odds on Fox running commentary about LA over footage of violent riots in Venezuela or Syria? You know they aren’t going to show any footage of crying abuelas being peaceful.

Also, I’d like to see the left shift away from comparing ICE to brownshirts - not because it’s not an apt historical comparison, but because the public has been rhetorically prepared to reject those comparisons. Instead, I’d prefer comparisons along the lines of ICE = KKK focusing on the faces being covered and the intimidation tactics. The US has seen this before, and its history here predates the Third Reich. It’s a fully homegrown hate.

[novakant]

Trump want his Reichstag Fire.

I hate to be alarmist but this could be a tipping point.

[novakant]

And he actually calls the governor "Newscum".

I don't think it's prissy to remark on the complete deterioration of any kind of propriety in the communication from the White House. Can you imagine any other president in recent memory (not sure about the 19th century) talking like that?

And the language is not an unimportant aspect, it's a major part of the dehumanization of political opponents and out-groups.

[novakant]

This has been long in the making:

Deploying on U.S. Soil: How Trump Would Use Soldiers Against Riots, Crime and Migrants

[novakant]

shared link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/17/us/politics/trump-2025-insurrection-act.html?unlocked_article_code=1.NU8.yOqF.HtoQfkx4EVYE&smid=url-share

[GftNC]

Instead, I’d prefer comparisons along the lines of ICE = KKK focusing on the faces being covered and the intimidation tactics. The US has seen this before, and its history here predates the Third Reich. It’s a fully homegrown hate.

Excellent point, and good suggestion.

[russell]

ICE = KKK

ICE = orcs is how I think of it.

[GftNC]

It's horrifying, but not surprising. I wonder what it will take for the kind of people who thought people like us were being alarmist to become sufficiently alarmed themselves. The marines, as Hegseth posited? Or, God forbid, some (how many?) deaths...

[CharlesWT]

The marines, as Hegseth posited?

Who are going to be in a mood after having their weekend disrupted.

[liberal japonicus]

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2025/06/presidenting-is-hard

I don't want to makes this a 'if the Czar only knew' kind of argument (which I think a lot of MAGA types use to explain away their support of the Orange shitstain) but it would not surprise me if he was unaware of the order. Which suggests that the way to stop it is to explain to him that there is no way he gets the Peace prize if this explodes

[Cheez Whiz]

Trump may not have known about the order, but if so it didn't seem to bother him. Miller and Trump are on the same page with this strategy where Miller does the heavy lifting while Trump, well, Trumps. Most of the White House minions are various types of idiots, but Miller seems very focused and careful as he goes about cleansing the blood of the Homeland, He likely has some milestones to meet before the Insurrection Act is invoked. They need a big, splashy riot.

[novakant]

Regarding Stephen Miller, his uncle's article is priceless, though of course it has fallen on deaf ears:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/08/13/stephen-miller-is-an-immigration-hypocrite-i-know-because-im-his-uncle-219351/

[novakant]

This is also good:

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/stephen-miller-hatemonger-biography/

[Donald]

I generally feel empathy for poor whites who are embittered and support Trump, but this article, which is intended to produce that emotion, had the opposite effect in my case. I understand the exhortation at the end, but I also think these people are choosing to be mean spirited and their hurt pride has become a twisted poisonous thing. Of course my attitude towards them is precisely what the author warns against, but their own attitudes are not good either.

Free article

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/09/opinion/trump-supporters-kentucky.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Nk8.a0Ip.8fbql8Cqzl_u&smid=url-share

[Cheez Whiz]

Well, these people are not just going away somehow, so the intent of these empathy articles is "what do we do about them?". Understanding a problem is supposedly the first step in solving it, but these articles all have the unspoken assumption we must "reach out" to them to change their minds, after documenting in painful detail that they are not remotely interested in being
"reached out" to. They want Yesterday back, and are settling for a promise of Yesterday that is always coming tomorrow, because it is backed with an enthusiastic acceptance of their resentments and grievances. That acceptance means more to them that promises of Democratic help that deny those resentments. The Centrist solution is to not inflame those resentments by supporting the targets of that resentment, but replacing resentment with nothing isn't going to help.

[russell]

From the NYT piece, my bolds:

Democratic attempts to build a green America, which many Kentuckians support, fell on deaf ears because the people providing these ideas were Democrats. With his Inflation Reduction Act, Joe Biden directed 73 percent of clean energy investments to projects in red states — projects like making batteries and installing solar panels. Red state residents were expected to receive almost double the investment compared to their blue state counterparts.

Paradoxically, this should have greatly appealed to Roger Ford, whose energy start-up aims to combine municipal waste with harvested hemp to create a cleaner aviation fuel for Delta Air Lines. It didn’t seem to

It's a cliche now to talk about rural red state folks "voting against their own economic interest". And, it's fundamentally true.

Why? I have no idea. And whenever I read stuff like this, I walk away feeling like these people are more attached to their feelings of self-pity and victimization than they are to doing anything whatsoever to improve their situation.

Coal is not coming back as a regional economic anchor, and it shouldn't, which is why it isn't. That sucks for a lot of folks whose identity is connected to that, who feel a sense of pride in having done (or whose forbears did) a difficult, dangerous, and necessary job. And the loss of that has hollowed out many areas.

I get all of that.

This is not a phenomenon that is, remotely, unique to rural red states. When I first moved to Salem MA back in the early 80's, it was a run-down sort of depressed place. The factories had long since moved on to places with cheaper labor. Perhaps ironically, many of those places are now hotbeds of "forgotten man" "stolen pride" Trumpism, because the same industries have since followed the promise of even cheaper labor overseas. Plus ça change.

And all of the old school blue collar townie factory worker folks - children and grandchildren of immigrants from Ireland and Canada - spent their days complaining about the new wave of immigrants from the Dominican Republic who were moving into the triple deckers that had been built as factory labor housing.

Little by little, things turned around, as other industries - tech and medicine mostly - took the place of factory work. It took something like a generation, and investment, and mostly sane governance.

The old school townies are still here, but now they complain (with justification) about gentrification and the cost of housing.

I sort-of understand the sense of resentment - the feeling of having been left behind by forces beyond your control - that the folks in the article talk about. Because I've seen it in places I've lived. It hasn't touched me, directly, because I somehow stumbled into a stable career, for which I am grateful. But it's been part of my environment.

I sort-of understand it, but my empathy is kind of limited, because the response of people like the folks in the article is to embrace policies that will only do them harm, and political actors who basically don't give a shit about them and exploit their sense of abandonment for their own ends in the most obvious ways.

Donald J Trump does not give one single flying fuck about Roger Ford. The "red version" of Biden's clean energy initiative is not going to happen, ever. Because there isn't enough money in it for (R) leadership and their patrons, full stop. And yet, Roger Ford will be damned if he will give any support whatsoever to folks who actually will make at least some effort to turn things around for him and his community.

If they can't tolerate the (D)'s helping them, there are a wide variety and number of organizations rooted in Appachia that are working to build a decent future there that are not specifically affiliated with the (D) party. The Roger Fords of the world could consider working with them. Whether he does or not is on him, (D)'s and "liberals" and "coastal elites" have nothing to do with it.

Apologies for the long post, but I am heartily sick and tired of the NYT and their periodic safaris into the "red heartland" in an effort to understand the beating heart of Trumpism. It's not helpful, and in fact is condescending and offensive. Not to me, to the folks they are "analyzing".

This stuff is not mysterious. We used to have useful work to do, now we don't. We used to have enough money to get by, now we don't. There used to be something here to hold our young people, now they can't wait to get the hell out.

Totally easy to understand why that would make folks sad, or angry, or depressed. Or all of the above.

But you can either nurse your anger and resentment like some kind of petulant child, or you can try to find a constructive path forward. Or, at least, not hate the people who are trying to help you do that, however clumsy or ineffective their efforts might be.

Industries come and go. When they go, people and places organized around those industries suffer. New England and textiles, Detriot and cars, the Rust Belt and manufacturing in general. Lots of places have been through it, and it takes time and constructive effort and investment to turn it around.

But if you're gonna basically hate the people who are actually trying to help out, it's gonna take a lot more time, and be a lot harder.

If that feeds your sense of resentment in some way that weirdly floats your personal boat, then I have no idea what "people like me" can do or say about it.

[russell]

Might be a long comment from me lost in space out there somewhere...

[JanieM]

Lost comment rescue service came along....

[wj]

There used to be something here to hold our young people, now they can't wait to get the hell out.

It would, of course, be too much effort for the NYT reporters to go and ask those kids who are leaving: Why? And, answers in hand, then ask the folks upset about that what they are doing to fix that real, identified, problem. Besides voting for Trump, who didn't even start to change things last time around.

For example, if the kids complain about no good jobs, start by finding out what they, not their parents and grandparents but they, think constitutes a "good job." But the folks who feel abandoned by the kids apparenytly aren't interested. And, no surprise, the media aren't either.

[russell]

Thank you Janie!

In other news, Sly Stone has passed, at age 82. Kind of a miracle he made it that long, to be honest, but it still makes me sad to see him go.

Many musicians my age point to the Beatles on Sullivan in '64 as a life-changing event - the thing that made them want to play music.

For me, it was Sly. Funky, slinky, shiny, Sly and the Family Stone.

Just the hippest thing in the world to little white suburban kid me. It's really just in retrospect that you see how far ahead of his time the man was.

[Pro Bono]

I don't know about Kentucky, but in the UK aspiring young people leave home to go to university, then, if they don't become academics, they get jobs in London. There's no expectation that politicians will change that.

There's a general question: what can a politician do to persuade people to vote for them when they prefer the lies the other lot are telling to a fact-based narrative? Not much, unless it's to compete to tell more attractive lies.

[Michael Cain]

I am heartily sick and tired of the NYT and their periodic safaris into the "red heartland" in an effort to understand the beating heart of Trumpism.

A couple of months ago while I was updating my cartogram and prism map software, I ran it on new data for Appalachia and the Great Plains. I often mention that the NYT would be well-served to visit someplace that has been in decline far longer. The Great Plains' population peaked in the 1930 Census and has been declining for 90 years. Today, population density in Appalachia is a bit more than 10x the Great Plains density. Crowded :^)

A half-century ago, while I was a student at the University of Nebraska, I knew a fair number of kids from the Great Plains portion of the state. All of them were there to get a degree and find a job anywhere other than home (or places like it). Still going on today: outside of Omaha, Lincoln, and their suburbs, the state is shrinking.

[GftNC]

But if you're gonna basically hate the people who are actually trying to help out, it's gonna take a lot more time, and be a lot harder.

I'm just utterly bemused by this phenomenon. I cannot get my head round it at all. If it is a matter of deep identification with "people like us", on cultural wedge issues, to the extent that it trumps any actual chance of bettering your lives and circumstances, I cannot imagine how one can change that. If Ubu's Big Beautiful Bill is going to result in your losing your Medicaid, while billionaires get tax cuts, and you're still supporting Ubu and his project....how? what? why? OK, I know they never thought leopards would actually eat THEIR faces, but what does it take to change that support?

And now we actually have to listen to them talking about insurrection? Jesus F Christ.

[liberal japonicus]

I'm interested in the title of her book, which is 'Stolen Pride'. Thanks for sharing that. I found the Guardian review
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/oct/06/arlie-hochschild-pride-paradox-appalachia-politics
which mentions that the author's notion of a 'pride economy', so the question presumes that some undefined liberal/progressive agent reached out and stole something and that some sort of restitution needs to be made to make them whole.

[GftNC]

I am heartily sick and tired of the NYT and their periodic safaris into the "red heartland" in an effort to understand the beating heart of Trumpism. It's not helpful, and in fact is condescending and offensive. Not to me, to the folks they are "analyzing".

Mind you, I don't think I agree with this. Unless you talk to people who feel like this, against their own interests, I can't think the Dems will ever find a solution to getting their message across to the people whose votes they need.

That's if votes are even going to be relevant in 2026, and 2028.

[bobbyp]

Mind you, I don't think I agree with this. Unless you talk to people who feel like this, against their own interests, I can't think the Dems will ever find a solution to getting their message across to the people whose votes they need.

The Dems get their message across to many. They lost in '16 and '24 by a a combination of slim margins and electoral flukes...a mere whisker. This whole line of argument I find baffling...why, when Clinton and Obama each won twice, did I not see anybody at my door asking me what it would take to get me to vote for the thugs who call themselves republicans.

There are leaners of all types, no?

Now ask yourself, why no "cletus safaris" in '92, '96, '08, '12, and '20 going deep into the recalcatrant voter areas in the black heartland of Missippippi, or urban San Franciso?

Thanks,

[JanieM]

bobbyp said something related to I would try to say if I weren't in babysitting mode. But I can drop a quote from Children of Dune here that seems relevant:

The assumption that a whole system can be made to work better through an assault on its conscious elements betrays a dangerous ignorance.

Thinking of each voter as a "whole system..." and Dems trying to tailor their message to MAGA People as "an assault on ... conscious elements"* -- whether it could work any time in the next several millennia who knows, but it seems to me that Dems’ energies would be far better spent figuring out how to talk to fence-sitters, non-voters, younger people who haven't gotten stuck in any particular political space yet ... pretty much anyone but the hard-core MAGA voters that the cletus safari people love so much.

Here's a link relevant to, among other things, how many eligible voters there are who are not hardcore MAGA types (I think this link came from bobbyp....?)

https://www.weekendreading.net/p/the-re-emerging-anti-maga-majority

*This goes for efforts like "white fragility.” Directly telling people they're "bad, stupid, and/or wrong" [as a workshop leader once phrased it] seems to me to be the best possible way to cement them in their positions immovably.

PS: 2026 elections? Ha ha. And once we miss one....

[JanieM]

Separate but related thought train: In moments of discouragement long ago (long before Clickbait ran for office) I used to muse on the possibility that this country is actually too big and diverse to govern effectively. Now I'm wondering if it's too big and diverse to take over / obliterate effectively.

Last night I looked up stats related to population density for the US now and Germany in the 1930s. I'm not at home and don't have time/attention to look them up again, but the continental US is about 25 times as big as Germany (not counting Alaska and Hawaii), and the population density is maybe a third (or less?) of what Germany's was pre-WWII. (Although I was shocked at how high that population actually was.)

And that's to say nothing of cultural, regional, and ethnic diversity....

If I had to bet a nickel, I'd bet that we don't have elections again any time soon, but that Clickbait and his minions and handlers never manage to consolidate their power over the longer term, either. What happens in the meantime and where the US ends up in the longer term I have no idea, and I don't really expect to live to see it. I grieve for nous's "people of the future" ....

*****

Also not unrelated, Digby quoting James Fallows on a different comparison from the frequent references to fascism and Nazis, i.e. the Cultural Revolution in China:

https://digbysblog.net/2025/06/09/the-china-syndrome/

[bobbyp]

The Times essay by the author is illuminating (gift link below). The crux is this, these folks (currently) value their cultural priors way more than any rational appeals to public policy (cf giving all our wealth to people who already have way too much of it). Insofar as this take more or less matches reality (make your case), "meeting them where they are" is essentially hopeless.

There were a couple folks described in the essay that could possibly be reached....but the question is this: What price are you willing to pay to get them to come over to "our" side?

The rest? I am truly sorry, but their intoleranace and ignorance should be met with unyeilding white hot opposition.

They are the enemy.

They revel in it.

They radiate hate and grievance. Return fire with fire. There are greener voter pastures elsewhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/09/opinion/trump-supporters-kentucky.html?smid=url-share

20% of Kentucky's white (a tell to those who pay attention) 5th District still found a way to vote for Democrats. That's who we need to reach out to to shore them up and provide resources for them to fight the fight and let them know we are with them and THEY shall NOT be abandoned. If you want to "meet them where they are" you need to allocate a lot more resources to our allies who are already there.

LGM thread on this--many sides make their case:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2025/06/stolen-pride

Be kind.

[wj]

Also not unrelated, Digby quoting James Fallows on a different comparison from the frequent references to fascism and Nazis, i.e. the Cultural Revolution in China:

The parallels to the Cultural Revolution have been obvious for some time. I'm hoping our case doesn't go that far. Not to mention that long -- at least Trump is unlikely to live as long as Mao did, which probably means fewer years for our disaster.

[nous]

I have no time for the endless media post-mortems of Democratic messaging failures not because Democratic messaging isn't in need of help, but rather because what the American people need is a realignment of the political discourse. Republicans have blown up the norms and protocols. They are not even bothering to cover it up anymore, and too many voters continue to act as if the Republicans are still the party of small business, and the rule of law - when everything they do is an attack on the very grounds that make those things possible.

Meanwhile, the Democrats continue to talk as if those norms and protocols can be restored just by refusing to give them up - the government is just out of balance.

No.

Democrats need to forge a new coalition around a new vision of the common good. They need a fresh vision of what the Constitution and the Declaration promise that rings true with the documents and shines a spotlight on the weak, terrified, ravenous, hollow heart of the modern GOP and drive a stake into it.

That, or we need to take a sledge to the parts of the constitution that have been hollowed out by years of termite infestations and put in some new walls and framing that will support the load.

'Cause this house is crumbling.

[wj]

I wonder if it might be useful to take a look at what happened in China after the Cultural Revolution. How did they go about walking back what had been happening? What process was involved in establishing a different direction for society?

Not to say that we want to do the same sorts of things here. Nor that it wouldn't be far better to avoid going down that path if we can possibly avoid it. But we might consider the potential of avoiding the traditional American Not Invented Here syndrome. Why reinvent the wheel?

[liberal japonicus]

I wonder if it might be useful to take a look at what happened in China after the Cultural Revolution. How did they go about walking back what had been happening? What process was involved in establishing a different direction for society?

Well, the first thing they did was to pin everything on the Gang of Four, which included Mao's widow, so if I were Melania or Vance, I'd be careful.

[JanieM]

Nor that it wouldn't be far better to avoid going down that path if we can possibly avoid it.

Too late.

[wj]

Should has said "further down that path"

[russell]

I think we're at the point where a lot of people are gonna get hurt before anything gets better.

Everyone is gonna have to make their own assessment of what they are willing to risk. And we don't have to look at China to find historical parallels, we have a rich history of our own.

[Michael Cain]

Now I'm wondering if it's too big and diverse to take over / obliterate effectively.... Last night I looked up stats related to population density for the US now and Germany in the 1930s.

Consider the rural Great Plains (white counties in this map). 520,000 square miles -- that's 55% larger than California, Oregon, and Washington combined. East-west width ranges from 300 to 600 miles. The average population density is 9.9 people per square mile. 231 of those 360 counties have a population below 7.0 people per square mile. That's the standard definition used for "frontier" in US history. The frontier is expanding: there were several more frontier counties in the 2020 census than in 2010. Only ten of those counties have a population >100,000.

How do you "occupy" something like that?

[Hartmut]

How do you "occupy" something like that?

Concentration obviously. Only one residential area per county and an obligation to report there in person at least twice a week.
Small farms should be abolished anyway for efficiency's sake. Since collectivation is un-American, they have to be eminently domained and then privatised in huge chunks. The former owners will be either moved to the county residential area or bound to the soil (and tagged, so they can be located at any time).

[wj]

Hartmut, the thing is, the family farm is a serious minority of the farm acreage. Has been for decades. They do still exist, but big industrial operations are the norm already.

[CharlesWT]

As farm equipment becomes autonomous, fewer people will be needed in the Great Plains. Even now, tractor, combine, and other operators spend just some of their time keeping track of things and tweaking the controls. They can spend the rest watching YouTube, listening to podcasts, babysitting their kids, etc.

[nous]

I think the Great Plains could make a comeback if the government broke up Big Ag and supported carbon-negative farming. I know a lot of Millennials who are locked out of the housing market who would be willing to give permaculture farming a shot.

It's the culture war that makes the Great Plains unattractive. How to change that is a bigger conundrum.

[russell]

I know a lot of Millennials who are locked out of the housing market who would be willing to give permaculture farming a shot.

And... immigrants.

[nous]

And... immigrants.

Sounds like a plan. I'm for it.

The automated tractor/combine operations need to give way to no-plow mixed farming practices. Those can be managed with tech as well, but it's a more hands-on sort of tech.

I recommend reading The Blue Plate - by Mark J Easter. He's done a lot of work on this out of Colorado State University.

[CharlesWT]

Hartmut, the thing is, the family farm is a serious minority of the farm acreage. Has been for decades. They do still exist,

A few exist or find it much easier to exist because they have a YouTube channel that may generate more income than their farm.

[Hartmut]

I am subscribed to one of those YouTube channels
https://www.youtube.com/@FarmCraft101

Concerning family farms, I thought it was obvious that my post was satirical in nature.

[nous]

Just FYI in the face of the breathless coverage of Unrest In Los Angeles!!! - yeah, no. Not that big a deal. Nothing much is threatened. Crowds are all manageable. LAPD is handling looters with their usual loving care.

101 was stopped for a little, but I routinely avoid the 101 because it's often an eight lane parking lot in that area.

Outside of a couple two block radius areas everything is completely normal. And in those two block areas there is nothing that threatens to spill out of control or grow larger.

Don't believe the hype.

[wj]

Don't believe the hype.

Unfortunately, as we saw with the George Floyd "riots", it only takes a handful of anarchists and thugs to make a huge, peaceful, protest look like a massive riot. And a "riot" makes much more riveting TV "live-from-the-scene" reporting.

[CharlesWT]

Yep. Only a couple of dozen people died and a few billion dollars in damages.

[JanieM]

More to the point of what's likely to happen, and related to what wj said at 8:30, what we believe -- hype or reality -- is irrelevant to what is going to happen. (Unless someone knows some magic words that will wake us all up from the current nightmare.)

The whole point of the hype is to justify the next thing....

*****

I think i've told the story here of going into a store in Augusta a couple of years after the George Floyd protests. The person who waited on me was from Portland (the other one, i.e. Oregon) and was about to take his Maine girlfriend home to meet his family. He was afraid about the devastation he was going to see when he got there. Like, a dumpster burned somewhere during the protests? But he was dead serious.

[JanieM]

a few billion dollars in damages

More complicated than it might seem on the surface. Surprise surprise.

[Michael Cain]

I think the Great Plains could make a comeback if the government broke up Big Ag and supported carbon-negative farming. I know a lot of Millennials who are locked out of the housing market who would be willing to give permaculture farming a shot.

Respectfully, I have to disagree.

Historically, perhaps a third of the Great Plains has ever been plowed, another third grazed, and the last third won't support enough forage to run livestock. The western half of the GP is too arid for dry land farming of any sort -- without irrigation it's nothing. Driving through northeast Colorado on I-76 where it parallels the South Platte river is educational. On the river side of the highway things are green and all summer long you can watch the irrigation systems that keep it that way run. On the other side, sagebrush and bunch grass steppe, with lots of crusty ground showing. No fences because there's not enough forage for livestock.

Lubbock, TX got its start growing irrigated cotton. Take a look at this picture. In the center is Lubbock-area cotton grown with just natural precipitation. Off to the left is cotton grown with heavy irrigation. In dry years, that stunted cotton would be dead.

Climate warming is just going to make things worse. A couple degrees Fahrenheit warmer, and almost every year will be a dry year. The Poppers were largely correct: "Greatest failed agricultural experiment in history."

[hairshirthedonist]

Lubbock, TX got its start growing irrigated cotton.

Also largely true of Phoenix, AZ. Imagine growing cotton there without irrigation. (Not the Great Plains, but still...)

[russell]

I've sometimes thought it might be good to identify all the non-arable land in the Plains and set up a buffalo reserve. Just let them roam and graze and do their thing.

Manage it as a national asset and let people go in and hunt some to manage population, like we do with deer.

My assumption is that this is a total non-starter for about a hundred reasons, but it seemed sensible, to me.

But I don't live in the Plains.

[russell]

Also wanted to mention that small acreage farming is not-uncommon here in New England. Mostly because there are not many large holdings available any more due to development etc.

In my county (Essex County, MA) there are some grandfathered farmsteads that were purchased by a non-profit, who then leased the land to farming families. The biggest one is 1,000 acres, most are smaller, some much smaller.

It's a pretty successful program. They all run CSA's, sell at local farmers markets and at their own farm stands, some raise stock for meat. The food is really good, and they're pretty popular.

It's probably the only way to make small scale farming viable, at least in my country. The pressure from land prices is insane.

As you go west in the state, there are more small farms that are actually owned by the folks who farm them. A surprising amount of the state (and of New England in general) is rural.

You just gotta get west of Worcester.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

On the "Original Topic", we haven't got close enough to the MD50 for schadenfreude for any definite conclusions, so many more failures of Trump will be on the schedule.

FDA (what's left of it) is ON IT.

[JanieM]

You just gotta get west of Worcester.

Clears throat to say: "Or north of Portsmouth."

https://modernsurvivalblog.com/lifestyle/northeast-population-density/

Maine comes within a hair of having as much land area as the rest of NE combined.

Fascinating agricultural stats here. VT pulls way beyond its tiny size in total farmland (almost as much as Maine). I imagine lots of sugarbush acreage... ;-)

And Maine has a lot of probably unfarmable forestland as well.

[nous]

Yeah. My musings were less about the population density and more about the revitalization of small cities and surrounding farmland in the viable areas. Sustainable farming practices are going to require a lot more human oversight than the factory farming practices that are exhausting the soil and causing massive carbon release.

The good news is that a lot of the farmland that had been depleted in the past with traditional farming practices (plowing) can probably be recuperated with modern regenerative soil management. Give people a subsidy for carbon farming - their crop could be partly measured in how much carbon they can sequester in their soil and a bounty paid on that.

[GftNC]

RIP Brian Wilson. Responsible for an indelible American sound, and a huge part of my youth.

[bobbyp]

Indeed, GftNC. I remember listening to this tune long long ago in a different time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwgGuadsqyo

[JanieM]

Well, hell.

[GftNC]

And I can never decide whether it's Good Vibrations or God Only Knows in my desert island discs...
(a radio show which has been running in the UK for many decades, you only get eight).

[Michael Cain]

The good news is that a lot of the farmland that had been depleted in the past with traditional farming practices (plowing) can probably be recuperated with modern regenerative soil management.

My BIL is a successful family farmer in central Kansas. He's in an odd place -- not quite far enough west to need irrigation to survive, but far enough west that you have to have a certain volume to make it work. He has a couple square miles. He could have more -- for years, the kids he went to high school with who inherited their fathers' land when the old men died have offered him a discount price before they sell to the corporates. He tells me that he walks the property, takes lots of soil samples, has a lab test them. His most common response is, "Your dad absolutely ruined the soil. It's not worth the decade it would take me get it uniformly productive again." He does the same on his own land every couple years, and pays for computer controls for some of the equipment so it works in organic material where the map says it's needed, stuff to balance the pH, even out nitrogen, etc.

Last time we talked he listed off his revenue sources: (1) the federal government says some of the land can be farmed, but since he doesn't agree, he lets them pay him to leave it fallow; (2) he pays a market advisor to steer him to specialty wheat that's going to be in demand; (3) the family has accumulated enough capital equipment that they can sell services (eg, custom cutting); (4) the younger son is a genius at keeping old diesel equipment running, a talent in high demand now that the equipment vendors make independent repair of new gear impossible; and (5) fully grass-fed beef that goes into the pipeline of small slaughter, small butcher, and higher-end restaurants.

He says the services are surprisingly lucrative some years. Now that cutting wheat is in the hands of big corporations, they won't leave a crew behind if unexpected rain means the fields are too wet the week they're coming through a particular county. He can charge a premium to cut ten days later.

It's been several years since I've been back there. The last time, his wife asked if anyone had seen her son. Someone told her that yes, Adam and Mike were in the kitchen discussing politics. When she crashed through the back door, she had obviously run the whole way, thinking that there would be blood on the floor. Adam and I were having a pleasant conversation agreeing on the evils of giant corporate intellectual property, and how "right to repair" was a right worth fighting for.

[Michael Cain]

(a radio show which has been running in the UK for many decades, you only get eight)

Linda Ronstadt's "Long, Long Time". Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven". Second movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Handel's "Music for the Royal Fireworks". We can discuss the other four.

[nous]

My desert island discs change every time I go back to reconstruct a list. I could live with:

Peter Gabriel - The Rhythm of the Heat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7w1SrtNwHc

Dead Can Dance - Yulunga
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ariSCwZp_Lc

Opeth - Blackwater Park
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4xCb_OU_lM

The Cure - A Forest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbAxbmAHgx4

Michael Hedges - i carry your heart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwczXm64eRk

Maria McKee - Breathe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdJOpb6dJlY

Sólstafir - Ótta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRHuvk-fzwo

Cynic - Veil of Maya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMn9T9OkRYA

[GftNC]

Mine changes from time to time too. But it would definitely include:

1. Paul Robeson - Lindy Lou

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHG_VK1tFHs

2. Joan Baez - Silver Dagger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xlmb8gG7HU

3. Dylan - Like a Rolling Stone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwOfCgkyEj0

4. Beach Boys - God Only Knows

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u90beUXTKwo

That's all I am pretty sure of at the moment. If I were going to include any Handel (which I'm not) it would be the Water Music. There'd possibly (probably) be more Dylan, (maybe singing Girl from the North Country with Johnny Cash - it's my handle for a reason), maybe some Janis Joplin (Piece of My Heart).

Over and out.

[CharlesWT]

There are songs I like when I hear them, but I don't have any particular favorites.

Here is a stab at the eight most popular songs from 1960 to the present. Depending on the metrics you use several of them may be in that range.

The Beatles - "Hey Jude" (1968)

Queen - "Bohemian Rhapsody" (1975)

Michael Jackson - "Billie Jean" (1983)

ABBA - "Dancing Queen" (1976)

Luis Fonsi ft. Daddy Yankee - "Despacito" (2017)

The Weeknd - "Blinding Lights" (2019)

Journey - "Don’t Stop Believin’" (1981)

Ed Sheeran - "Shape of You" (2017)

This is more my style. :)

[nous]

Well, my Senator has now been handcuffed and arrested for asking a question at Puppykiller Barbie's press conference...

The gifs are all over bsky at the moment.

[nous]

...okay, not arrested, but wrestled to the ground, cuffed, and detained.

[Donald]

Israel is not our ally. We should not have armed them after the first several weeks in Gaza showed they were dropping bombs on apartment buildings.

And now they attacked Iran, no doubt expecting us to help them.

Dump them. Netanyahu will do anything to stay in power. We should stop this “ ironclad” support. All this support has taught them they can do anything and we will help them.

What Trump will do is anybody’s guess.

[BigBadBird]

What did Iran ever do to anyone?

[Donald]

Maybe make an argument rather than play these stupid sarcasm games, malicious feathered entuty.

Iran has a terrible human rights record internally. They supported Assad. They supported Hezbollah which supported Assad. They supported Hamas which opposed Assad. They supported the Houthis.

We supported the Saudis, another country with a bad human rights record, and their bombing and blockade which we supported killed nearly 400,000 people. Currently we are supporting an apartheid state committing genocide.

Do you have something serious to say or is yet another stupid war that could spiral out of control a source of amusement to you?

And frankly,up to this point, Iran, Hezbollah and the Houthis seem saber than the U.S. and Israel. That is not a compliment given the very low bar here.

[CharlesWT]

Bomb Iran

[Donald]

Saner , not saber.

[wj]

What did Iran ever do to anyone?

Well, at the start of the American military action in Afghanistan, Iran offered us full, free, transit for military supplies. (In contrast to Pakistan, which charged us tens of millions -- a chunk of which the Pakistanis funneled to the Taliban to fund fighting against us.)

Too bad we didn't accept. We didn't even admit we had received the offer.

The Middle East might be quite different today. And Russia might not have Shahed drones to attack Ukraine.

[novakant]

So Israel can do whatever it wants without any tangible consequences, because ... ? Not that I'm surprised.

PS Let's ignore the trolls.

[novakant]

Also interesting: the immediate calls to deescelate and the stern warnings to Iran not to inflame the situation. It's almost as if "the right to defend oneself" doesn't apply to everyone.