Being the best

by liberal japonicus

Before COVID, I did martial arts. I'm afraid I've stopped, but in compensation, I spend an inordinate amount of time watching Youtube videos about them and came across this one, where Neil Adams, a British judoka who was a world champion and an Olympian silver medalist was being interviewed by Lex Fridman. Neil Adams tells a story (starts here) to illustrate how people who are basically unknown can be incredibly talented. His story is of the British Olympic judo team going to train in Japan in order to experience some different sparring partners, and at one training session, a guy in a suit and tie with a briefcase comes in during his lunch hour, changes into his judo togs and basically goes through the entire British judo team. During his lunch hour. He then changes back into his suit and tie and goes back to work, briefcase at his side. Adams goes on to point out that there are people like that 'in the mix' who may never come out.

While my first thought was the anecdote about the English football team going to play a friendly in Brazil, deciding to have a laugh and play football on the beach, where they were trounced by a pick up team of Brazilian guys, my second thought was of David Foster Wallace's essay about Michael Joyce, a journeyman tennis pro ranked at that time in the top #100. A number of people have picked up Wallace's observation that the gulf between any 'regular player' and someone in the top 100 is massive. Some have said that the essay is about that, but re-reading it makes me think that it is only a peripheral observation, not the meat of the essay. Still, it is often kicked around, but it seems like the opposite of the Neil Adams story. A lot has to do with the set up of the sports, it is hard to imagine someone unknown to the world wandering in and taking a game, let alone a set or a match from a top-ranked tennis player. On the other hand, with a sport like judo, where it is part of Japanese national culture, one can easily imagine even the stronger national teams coming over and getting their asses handed to them

Niels Bohr said that the opposite of a fact was a falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth is another profound truth, which is how I line these stories up. Yes, the gap between the top 100 or 200 or 500 is yawning chasm, but there are probably people out there who could wander in and give the best a run for their money. Sadly, the absolute truth is that it won't be me.

An open thread for sports and sports-like observations.

Comments

[JanieM]

A sports tidbit from family lore.

I grew up an hour from Cleveland. Naturally most people were Cleveland fans (formerly the Indians, now the Guardians).

In my house, however, we were Yankee fans, because my dad was a Yankee fan. Sadly, I never thought to ask him why when he was still around to ask. Late in my mom's life I asked her if she knew, and she said she didn't, but that she did remember my dad getting into a fistfight with one of his brothers over their baseball allegiances.

What reminded me of this old family tidbit is that Cleveland and the Yankees are playing in the ALCS (American League Championship Series) this year, starting tomorrow. That would have made for some interesting family gatherings in the old days! Then again, in the old days it wouldn't have happened, because the world (and the MLB playoff structure) was simpler then. I'm so old I remember where there were just 8 teams in each league.

And of course at the click of the keyboard it's possible to find the whole postseason history of the Yankees vs the Guardians.

*****

On the subject of great players who aren't famous, or pros: there are legendary playground basketball players, though it's a long time since I thought about that and I don't remember any specifics. Asking Google again, I came up with an article that includes this passage:

Quick sidebar: I have never been able to dunk. I’ve never even touched the rim. I would gladly trade 10 years of my life to dunk it one time in a pickup game.

I'm not quite that extreme, but the first of a set of "next lifetime" jokes I ever made was that in my next lifetime I want hang time, so I can dunk. (My ex and his friends made space for me in their pickup games during college, and taught me to play, at least a bit. We have a basketball court in the barn. My kids played HS basketball. Lots of hoops in my life.)

In a later next-lifetime fantasy I wanted to be Colin Dunne as in this clip from Riverdance. (No, not Michael Flatley.....)

*****

Trigger warning, schlocky sentimentality about a famous Yankee. But fun if you like them. Or him. (Derek Jeter.)

[CharlesWT]

There are Mensa members who live ordinary lives. Perhaps their inter-life is sufficient for them. But it seems like keeping a race car in the garage to be taken out for a turn around the block occasionally.

These days the quickest way for a man to excel in a sport is to declare himself to be a trans woman.

[JanieM]

There are Mensa members who live ordinary lives. Perhaps their inter-life is sufficient for them. But it seems like keeping a race car in the garage to be taken out for a turn around the block occasionally.

I think a better analogy would be having a racing car engine with no other parts that work properly to make it fit for racing. Ask me how I know.

These days the quickest way for a man to excel in a sport is to declare himself to be a trans woman.

I don't know if this was meant as a joke, but it's not funny. As far as I'm concerned, it's a form of bigotry that we would not tolerate here if it was directed differently.

[wj]

I am instantly put in mind of a story I once came across of Babe Ruth (and, I think, Lou Gerhrig), down in Arizona. They came across a woman softball pitcher who, like all softball pitchers, threw underhand. And, to their disgust, found her unhittable. Repeatedly.

Note that this was not the case of Jackie Mitchell. That was in Nashville, Tennessee. She threw sidearm. And it was in an actual game (albeit an exhibition, not a major league game).

[wj]

There are Mensa members who live ordinary lives.

There are also a lot of extremely bright people who have never been part of Mensa. My sense is that the reason people join Mensa is exactly because, despite their high IQ, they aren't particularly accomplished at anything (besides IQ tests). Personally, I'm test-sophisticated enough to do extremely well on IQ tests.** (I suspect I'm not alone in that.) But I've never seen a reason to take Mensa's test.

**My school district growing up had a fascination with IQ tests. No idea why. But we got several of them between kindergarten and high school graduation. The results gave me a low opinion of IQ tests. I mean, a 40 point spread across the tests. Not to mention monotonic increasing. Bah!

[JanieM]

My sense is that the reason people join Mensa is exactly because, despite their high IQ, they aren't particularly accomplished at anything (besides IQ tests).

Kind of like someone who holds the Guiness World Record for most consecutive free throws but never played college ball, much less pro.

I want to go back to CharlesWT's original comment, which implies that a high IQ should be all that's needed for a person to accomplish great things. As wj says/implies, whatever IQ tests measure -- and even that's controversial -- it's not the combination of talents, qualities, and sheer luck that usually goes into a life of great accomplishment and (perhaps) fame.

I was one of the most talented test-takers ever born, succeeding without any of the test prep resources that kids have today. It turns out -- again as wj says -- that successful test-taking its own skillset, which translates only in part to other realms. It's not nothing -- the same skillset that made me an ace test-taker contributed to my ability to earn a decent living as a programmer/analyst.

But it's not everything, either. And I would extend the same qualifiers to success in school in general. In my experience, far too much is made of it as a predictor of success (“success”) in the wider world.

You’d think we humans would have learned by now. But looking at the headlines (politics, war, lack of prep for natural disaster, etc.), it seems that we humans learn . . . very little, really.

[GftNC]

In my experience, far too much is made of it as a predictor of success (“success”) in the wider world.

Mine too. And in fact, again in my experience, depending on certain circumstances, it can be as much an obstacle as a help to "success in the wider world".

[wj]

It may be worth noting that the skill in taking multiple choice tests (most IQ tests, the SAT, etc.) is eminently teachable. Somehow never touched on in school (gee, I wonder why), but it doesn't require more than average intelligence.

For those who missed the memo, here's how it works. In a 5 option multiple choice (5 choices seems to be extremely common), pure chance will get you 20% correct. But if you can eliminate a couple of the choices, you can get more like 50%, which is a big boost to your score. Especially added on to the answers you do know.

And that elimination is often pretty simple. The creators of those tests commonly, for whatever reason, put one ot two answers way different from the rest; scratch those. Or they may have one answer that is blatantly wrong. (My guess is that this is to flag people who are just guessing blindly whenever they are not certain. But I don't design tests.) Once you have eliminated those, the answer may be pretty obvious. Or you can just guess among the remainder.

It's basically mechanical. Anyone with even close to average intelligence can do it. Even if they tend to freeze up on tests. But most people never seem to have encountered the idea.

[CharlesWT]

I don't know if this was meant as a joke, but it's not funny.

An observation, not a joke. There have been quite a few news items lately about men proclaiming to be trans women and invading women's sports and spaces. There are several extreme cases of convicted rapists claiming to be trans women and being put in women's prisons.

Trans women have the same rights as everyone else. But their rights shouldn't be at the expense of women's rights.

[wj]

There are several extreme cases of convicted rapists claiming to be trans women and being put in women's prisons.

Solution: "We provide support for trans individuals. Your surgery is scheduled the day after you arrive. Good news: no charge."

Seems straightforward enough. Admittedly not perfect, but probably upwards of 90% effective.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

wj: regarding multiple choice tests.

Yes, eliminate some answers. Then pick randomly among the ones remaining.

A #2 pencil has six sides. You can make "dots" on the sides, so that rolling the pencil is equivalent to rolling a 6-sided die. (D6 in D&D lingo).

That gets you a "fast answer", so you can spend more time on questions where some thought can help.

Have I put entirely TOO MUCH thought into this question? Why yes, I have.

[CharlesWT]

Archaeologists discovered a seventeenth-century pencil thought to have been used by William Shakespeare. The question is whether it is 2B or not 2B.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Since a groan is the appropriate applause for a pun: **GROAN**

[nous]

There is absolutely nothing productive about any of the trans discussion so far in this thread. All it reveals is a deep lack of understanding of the things that actually make a difference in the lives of trans-people.

May as well have an entire discussion of social safety nets that revolves around the need to keep wealthy sociopaths from cheating the system to the exclusion of everything else.

---

One of the reasons why I am most grateful for having spent as much time in academia as I have is the experience of being surrounded by the sort of extraordinary people that lj is talking about here - maybe not everyone, but a significant number of them. It's paradoxically humbling to engage in social conversation and find yourself swept out of your depth in a conversation on a topic for which you have no expertise, and then have that conversation swing a little different direction and find those roles reversed within minutes. It's given me a healthy respect for expertise that's helped keep me from the sort of conspiracy nonsense that has swallowed other family members whole. It helps that in many of those conversations there are other experts with similar depth of knowledge that can keep the conversation from devolving into argument from authority.

Both of those are necessary.

Sympathetic vibrations with the conversation going on in the other thread about orangutans. There's some relative frequencies here.

[liberal japonicus]

An observation, not a joke. There have been quite a few news items lately about men proclaiming to be trans women and invading women's sports and spaces. There are several extreme cases of convicted rapists claiming to be trans women and being put in women's prisons.

And when you burrow down, you find out that these stories are fake. It just reveals deep seated insecurities in the observer.

[nous]

...also, I should add that I think the key thing that makes these conversations and this sort of respect possible is interdisciplinary curiosity. If you have the misfortune of getting into one of these conversations with an incurious disciplinary specialist, you can never stray far from their home turf before they wander off or start to pick fights over things they don't fully understand, assuming that they have the right of it.

I mistrust people that lack curiosity about the things outside of their own ball of dung they've been rolling for years.

[CharlesWT]

And when you burrow down, you find out that these stories are fake.

According to these right-wing sources.

"A former prisoner in the Rose M. Singer women’s jail on Rikers Island is suing New York City, alleging jail staff ignored her warnings in 2022 that a transgender woman housed among females was actually a man pretending to be a woman in order to prey on the opposite sex behind bars.

"His introduction was, 'I’m not transgender. I’m straight. I like women,’" said the plaintiff, who is identified only as "Rose Doe" in the lawsuit.

According to the civil suit, Rose Doe not only believed the alleged perpetrator was lying about their gender identity but that the prisoner was purposely "instructed to claim that he was transgender by DOC staff so that he could stay in the female dorm where he would have access to female inmates.""
Man posing as transgender woman raped female prisoner at Rikers, lawsuit says: Even after warnings and complaints, the victim said correction officers failed to remove the alleged perpetrator from female housing, despite allegedly propositioning the victim sexually and groping her in the shower. Days later, the victim claims she was sexually assaulted in her sleep by the perpetrator

"The Scottish Prison Service (SPS) policy follows a public outcry after a rapist was sent to a women's prison.

Isla Bryson raped two women while still known as Adam Graham.

The Scottish Conservatives said the new policy was "subjective" and "unacceptable".

The latest figures for Scotland show there were 23 trans prisoners from January to March this year.

They included 19 transgender women, seven of whom were in a women's prison, and four transgender men - one of whom was in a male prison."
Trans women inmates who hurt females to go to male prisons: Trans women who have hurt or threatened women or girls will not be held in female prisons unless there are "exceptional" circumstances, new guidance states.

"Politicians, campaigners and a UN special rapporteur have all expressed grave concerns that a transgender woman found guilty of raping two women before transitioning is being remanded in a female prison.

Opponents of the Scottish government’s gender recognition reforms – which the UK government has blocked from going for royal assent because of “safety issues for women and children” – said that the case vindicated their concerns about lack of safeguards in the bill."
Trans woman guilty of raping two women remanded in female prison in Scotland: Politicians, campaigners and UN special rapporteur concerned by case of Isla Bryson, who offended before she had transitioned

[nous]

Why is this a question of what to do about where trans- inmates are housed, and not a question of what should be done with rapists to ensure that they are not positioned to rape the other inmates?

Variation on a conversation between my wife and her mother, asking why her mother insisted that if a man rapes a woman who has become severely intoxicated, that the responsibility for that rape belongs most heavily with the woman.

[liberal japonicus]

There have been quite a few news items

Your insecurity is showing, Charles.

[CharlesWT]

Why is this a question of what to do about where trans-inmates are housed, and not a question of what should be done with rapists to ensure that they are not positioned to rape the other inmates?

I haven't had much to say about trans women other than they should have the same rights as everyone else. I've pointed to men who claim to be trans women for the advantages it gives them. Such as being housed in female prisons, participating in women's sports, and having access to female spaces like locker rooms.

Your insecurity is showing, Charles.

I have all kinds of insecurities. Which one do you have in mind?

[nous]

I haven't had much to say about trans women other than they should have the same rights as everyone else. I've pointed to men who claim to be trans women for the advantages it gives them.

But what you are doing right in these two sentences directly impacts a trans-person's life by making it harder for that person to live their life without having to in some way adjudicate their own legal identity by proving publicly and legally to others beyond the doubts of people like you that they are not rapists and/or cheaters.

I don't have to prove to anyone that I am not a cheater before I am allowed to enter a men's event. I don't have to prove that I'm not a rapist before being given admittance to a men's restroom, or locker room.

Here's another question: in what sort of prison should we house a man who has been convicted for having raped another man?

[CharlesWT]

The people making it difficult for trans women are the trans activists and men taking advantage of presenting as trans women. Unless they transition well enough to pass, even sincere trans women may have to accept limits on where they can go and what they can do. You can't get everything you want. Even sincere trans women are cheating if they enter into women's sports.

And what are the real women to do? Just take it on the nose when any man can put on a skirt and lipstick and enter their restrooms, locker rooms, women's shelters, etc.?

[liberal japonicus]

I have all kinds of insecurities. Which one do you have in mind?

{looks back at original post to see if gender was mentioned. Finds nothing}

Whatever Charles.

[russell]

This topic (the original topic) is of interest to me from a musical point of view.

There are a couple of sides to it. One is being "the best" in the simple sense of mastery - being very very good - at your craft, whether it's playing an instrument, composition, etc.

The other is being famous - widely recognized - for what you do.

Some folks achieve both.

The mastery thing, as far as I can tell, is a matter of putting in the work. Some people are freakishly talented, but mostly that means it takes them less time to be great. Sometimes that kind of talent gets in the way, typically when you get a lot of praise early on and never learn how to do the work, and so never progress beyond a certain point. The real masters basically live their art - life balance often becomes a challenge.

The recognition thing is to some degree luck, to some degree a matter of personal charisma (which is perhaps just a particular kind of luck), but to a large degree is a matter of... another kind of work. Networking, keeping yourself visible through whatever channels are available to you, moving to places where people do the kinds of thing you want to do.

There is also the issue of actually getting paid, which means getting hired. I was talking with a friend about this just this week. There's kind of a "rule of three" - 1. You have to play well enough to cut the gig, whatever it is, 2. You have to be reliable, and 3. You have to be a "good hang", meaning people need to like being around you. It helps *a lot* if you're funny.

If you want to make a living as a musician, you need to have at least two out of three.

In a musical context, the measure of "best" is harder to pin down than in sports, because it's not explicitly competitive. There are clear metrics for popularity, but that's kind of a different thing. At the upper levels, it's no longer about being "the best", because nobody is - at that level, everybody is just remarkably good. At those levels, it's mostly about being yourself, about having a distinct and recognizable and compelling voice.

"The genius is the one who is most like himself" - Thelonious Monk, from a collection of pro tips he scribbled out on a napkin for saxophonist Steve Lacy.

On the trans thing, I'll say that (at least these days) unlike in sports, it's not a big issue in the musical world. If you can play, are reliable, and are a good hang, you will likely find a place.

[wj]

There is absolutely nothing productive about any of the trans discussion so far in this thread.

nous, what would you consider productive? (I'll grant that my response to the rumors of rapists claiming to be trans was snarky. But, if those rumors had any basis, my response would, I submit, have rapidly separated the wheat from the chaff.)

The whole issue, the reason it is an issue, revolves around the lack of any objective way to determine if a given individual a) is trans, b) merely thinks they must be due to cultural definitions of gender roles that don't fit their interests, or c) is lying (for whatever reason). In short, it is a psychological question. And as sciences go psychology is still, at best, in the alchemy stage. The old alchemists did some good work. But mostly they were groping blindly. Similarly psychologists today.

[wj]

The mastery thing, as far as I can tell, is a matter of putting in the work. Some people are freakishly talented, but mostly that means it takes them less time to be great.

I don't think I agree. Mostly because I see a distinction between mastering technique and mastering an art (or other field of endeavor). Mastering technique, assuming you have the basic ability, is mostly a matter of putting in the time. Not entirely, but mostly.

But mastery of an art or a craft or a profession isn't just about technique. You do need to learn the techniques. But talent is something different. A musician, for example, can be technically flawless without anybody who knows music thinking they are great. Maybe the way to put it is that you can program a computer to play a piece of music flawlessly. But "uninspired" is about the kindest critique you will hear about the performance.

I can tell I'm not explaining this very well. Maybe someone else, if they happen to agree, can figure out how to say it better.

[wj]

On the trans thing, I'll say that (at least these days) unlike in sports, it's not a big issue in the musical world. If you can play, are reliable, and are a good hang, you will likely find a place.

I think trans is only really a competition thing in those kinds of activities which require physical abilities which depend, in part, on what gender you were physically at puberty. For other activites, there's really no reason for it to be an issue. Not to say there won't still be bigots, just as there still are over race, etc. Just that there won't be an objective basis for it.

[nous]

nous, what would you consider productive?

A conversation about trans-people in which trans-people were involved, allowed to speak for their own interests, and were afforded the respect to be listened to as equals in the conversation and not treated like people with something to prove.

Barring that, one in which the people involved sought to go out and find trans-people to listen to in that way, and then tried to find ways to incorporate their voices into the conversation with the same care and respect that they would afford to any of the other groups involved in the deliberations when it came to a question of what needs to change.

A conversation that does not put concerns for trans-people themselves on a lower priority within the conversation than concerns about rapists and cheaters.

You'd think the last bit would be an easy ask, but here we are pretty much every single time.

[nous]

I think trans is only really a competition thing in those kinds of activities which require physical abilities which depend, in part, on what gender you were physically at puberty.

And then only when there are some stakes involved - usually money or cultural status. For the vast majority of competitions it really shouldn't have to be any more of an issue than it is in those other things.

[liberal japonicus]

I don't worry much about topic drift, but dropping into one conversation and making it about something else entirely is probably the definition of non-productive.

[wj]

nous, what would you consider productive?

A conversation about trans-people in which trans-people were involved, allowed to speak for their own interests, and were afforded the respect to be listened to as equals in the conversation and not treated like people with something to prove.

I'm afraid I don't know how to go about recruiting/dragooning some trans commenters to join us here. If you can induce some to join, by all means do so. Please.

Until then, it seems a bit much to fault all of us for failing to include those who aren't here.

[nous]

wj - the whole second paragraph is an acknowledgment of the limits of our conversations here, and what I see as the imperative that places on us to become better informed by seeking out that input on our own and incorporating it as best we can in good faith.

That, too, could make for a productive conversation, depending on how well we are able to listen and understand.

[russell]

But mastery of an art or a craft or a profession isn't just about technique.

Agreed. But "putting in the work" is much more than just technique. Understanding the nature of the material you are working with, going through the process of developing your own voice, learning how to *hear* and what to listen for, learning the nuances of performing so you know how to engage an audience. Etc.

Technique comes into all of that, but they all go beyond technique in the sense of mechanical mastery.

Talent, in the sense of innate and unearned gift, is absolutely a factor, but I more or less stand by my sense that in general it's biggest impact is in accelerating the path to mastery.

The place where innate talent or gift really matters (IMO) is around basic musical intelligence - having a natural sensitivity to musical sounds and rhythm, having a natural understanding of and response to what is musically good and why it is good. That is huge, and is not solely the province of musical performers - many "civilians", as it were, have this In the context of performers, it is the difference between brilliant technicians and real artists.

But if we are talking about mastery - being "the best" - you have to also do the work.

[russell]

Apologies, there should be a period after "as it were, have this".

Fumble-fingers, they call me.

[liberal japonicus]

What's interesting about music/musicians in relation to 'being the best' is that there is no agreed upon yardstick for 'the best'. In fact, Wallace uses the yardstick of the ATP rankings, which is based on performance in ATP tournaments.

https://olympics.com/en/news/tennis-rankings-atp-wta-men-women-doubles-singles-system-grand-slam-olympics

It is difficult to imagine a similar ranking system for musicians. And there are tons of stories of some person just showing up and blowing everyone off the bandstand.

[GftNC]

I have refrained so far from commenting on this thread because a) I do try (often unsuccessfully) to observe thread discipline and b) it seemed to be mostly about sport, and I am not very interested in sport. In any case, the facts about male puberty conferring certain physical advantages in certain sports seem pretty well known, not all that much contested, and to be working through the various sports' governing bodies. The issues of fairness in non-professional sporting activities seem relevant, but again, I am not really all that interested, and prefer to keep my concentration on things I really am interested in and concerned about, particularly on such a poisonously polarised subject.

A conversation that does not put concerns for trans-people themselves on a lower priority within the conversation than concerns about rapists and cheaters.

This comment of nous's seemed important to me (my bolding). To me, the issue is balancing concerns for trans-people themselves with concerns for women and girls, either those who are worried or scared about having to share their spaces with male-bodied people, or else, in the case of young lesbians (young because psychologically vulnerable to accusations of transphobia) when they refuse to accept they should be attracted to male-bodied persons, or even perhaps natal male trans-people.

My concerns for and about trans men are not nearly so acute, because they do not seem to present the same kinds of issues (I have not heard of men objecting to sharing spaces with them, for example). This may change when the current huge and unprecedented uptick in cases of adolescent girls suddenly developing gender dysphoria has had more time to bed in, and we can see what the consequences are.

nous, I wonder what your gender-critical (if that is still the word you use for it) feminist academic colleagues think about any of these issues? You have referred to them before, and I wondered how things were developing in that community if you feel able to comment on it?

[wj]

But if we are talking about mastery - being "the best" - you have to also do the work.

No argument there.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"mastery" is often the result of "obsession", but so is "assholery".

A source of tension, when appreciating art created by assholes.

It's a human thing. Dammit.

[nous]

nous, I wonder what your gender-critical (if that is still the word you use for it) feminist academic colleagues think about any of these issues? You have referred to them before, and I wondered how things were developing in that community if you feel able to comment on it?

I'm not involved in any of those conversations on a deep level, so my perspective is fairly limited.

My biggest sense of it, though, is that the gender critical feminists projects are not developing with the context, in large part because their engagement with the conversation is inherently conservative (in the small-c, academic way). They have a body of scholarship that they believe is valuable, and is being devalued or neglected within the larger academic conversation. I can certainly sympathize with this feeling, as it ties deeply into their shared experience, and most of them are senior academics with a lot of investment in the work that has been done.

Their response has largely been to seek allies outside of the academy that can contain the trans-positive scholars influence and limit its spread outside of the academy.

I would hope that there are some gender-critical scholars that are actually trying to engage with the trans-positive and intersectional feminists to try to find common ground and new paradigms that allow for more solidarity between the politically marginalized groups, but I have not seen any of this cross my lists and groups, and I've been pretty buried in my classes and my reading about climate change and just transition.

[GftNC]

Interesting, thank you nous.

[CaseyL]

Regarding "innate skill" and "acquired mastery," my perspective is that of someone who reads, a LOT, and widely, and who has been a voracious reader my entire life.

There are writers who are excellent at constructing characters and stories... but whose writerly "voice" (for lack of a better word) is... well, pretty bad. Even reading silently, the prose doesn't flow; the choice of words and sentence construction feels "off."

This makes reading them as much a chore as a pleasure, and sometimes the chore overcomes the pleasure. Chief among these, in my opinion, is Rita Mae Brown. Her stories are wonderful, but it is a chore to read them as her prose does not flow the slightest little bit.

Then there are writers who are excellent at ALL the things: character, plot, dialogue, and flow-of-language. These are the ones who can make reading a sensory as well as intellectual pleasure, so much so that I will read their work out loud, even to myself, just for the joy of hearing the words fit together so wonderfully.

My favorite examples of this are John M. ("Mike") Ford, Parke Godwin and Phyllis Gotlieb. All science fiction writers, but also so much more. Gotlieb, for example, was a Poet Laureate of Canada; and Ford's reputation as a literary polymath really needs to be more widely known than it is.

I have no idea how this would rank among "innate" versus "acquired" skills. Can one be born with an ear for prose as people can be born with an ear for music? Can one acquire the ear by deep dive readings into writers who have it? Are poets more likely to have such a "prose ear" than non-poets?

[liberal japonicus]

I was going to suggest (as is my wont) reading and I remembered finding Conundrum by Jan Morris, a memoir about her transition, quite moving
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Morris

but in double checking, I see there are a massive number of memoirs by transgender authors about their experiences. So, while 'dragooning' people here would be inadvisable, there are a lot of resources to learn more.

[Donald]

I lost track of where the argument was, but the NYT is standing behind the authenticity of the photos showing bullets in children’s skulls ( which I had doubts about myself, but was wrong.). I believed the other testimony.

The NYT says they have more graphic photos but did not want to publish them.

https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on-new-york-times-opinion-essay/

[GftNC]

This is apparently "an open thread for sports and sports-like observations", so on the basis that an election is kind of like a sport (winners and losers etc), I would just like to note that early voting has opened in Georgia, and Jimmy Carter has cast his vote for Kamala Harris.

[nous]

Good for him. It appears that GA law and statutes are mute about whether or not to count a ballot from someone if they die after voting, but before election day. Some states explicitly allow such ballots to be counted, some explicitly prohibit the same.

Either way, I hope he lives to see her win.

[GftNC]

I hope he lives to see her win.

Amen.

[Michael Cain]

I would just like to note that early voting has opened in Georgia, and Jimmy Carter has cast his vote for Kamala Harris.

I put my ballot to keep Colorado blue in the drop box yesterday. Per at least state law, it counts now even if I die.

There were 20 state and local initiatives and referendums on the ballot. 17 contests with people that I marked. I skipped the section on retaining judges. Four pages all together. It's becoming an endurance sport :^)

[nous]

My ballot has also been mailed off to be counted.

I will, no doubt, feel chagrined when Kamalabot breaks down in public and is revealed to be an animatronic construct controlled by the Lizard People.

[wj]

"Kamalabot" -- that would be the figment of his imagination that TCFG keeps going on about? Not sure why anyone here should be chagrined by this.

[wj]

Put my ballot in the dropbox a week ago. Yesterday got the email informing me that it had been received and counted. One less thing to think about while working the polls on election day.

It's rough enough that it's about a 16 hour day for poll workers: set up at 0600. Polls open at 0700. Polls close at 2000. Closing up, including two independent counts of the number of ballot papers received (and the number of provisional ballots, and the number of mailin ballots dropped off). Usually done by 2100. Then off to deliver everything to the County Elections collection point. And then (since dual custody is required even for that phase of the process) return whichever of my poll workers did that with me to the polling place, to get their vehicle.

Home by 2145 if I'm really, really lucky. Whew!

[russell]

Thanks for doing the poll worker thing, wj.

[novakant]

Elon Musk gives $75m to pro-Trump group (no surprise there)

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/16/elon-musk-donald-trump-donation-america-pac

I think it really is time to boycott Twitter, as any 'engagement' there generates money for Musk, while conversely boycotting it might do serious damgage to his finances. But we seem to have a collective action problem:

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/elon-musk-twitter-x-collective-leaving-rcna169608

[russell]

I've never joined Twitter, but if I had would probably leave, mostly because by all accounts it's turning into a right wing propaganda engine.

That said, Musk's net worth is currently a quarter of a trillion dollars. $75 million is, astoundingly enough, pocket change from his point of view - 3 one-hundredths of a percent of his wealth.

And my sense is that his involvement in Twitter is more about having the megaphone, and less about what income he derives from it. He has a lot of irons in the fire, I'm not sure he depends on Twitter for money.

[CharlesWT]

I think he's losing money. I don't know what the current situation is, but some time ago, a bunch of advertisers boycotted X.

[wj]

russell, I'd urge anyone who is retired, or has a job with sufficient flexibility, to step up on this. It's not onerous, other than being a long day. And it's important that civic-minded citizens do it.

The last, the very last, thing that we want is rabid partisans running a polling place. Having them as poll watchers is (generally) tolerable. Having them as administrators, even at the most local level, is a bad thing.

[Michael Cain]

I think he's losing money. I don't know what the current situation is, but some time ago, a bunch of advertisers boycotted X.

Does he care, in the big picture? Last December's SpaceX tender offer valued the company at $180B. This past June's tender offer valued it at $210B. They've had a spectacular last couple of months on the PR front: the Polaris Dawn flight was basically flawless, the Crew Dragon flight to the ISS had a couple of open seats so they could retrieve the astronauts NASA left there rather than fly them home on Boeing's Starliner, they caught the Heavy Lifter on the first attempt, and both the ESA's Hera mission and NASA's Europa Clipper flew on SpaceX rockets because there are no competitors for payloads in those price and/or weight ranges.

[novakant]

Well, maybe he doesn't care about the money as such, but I'm sure he cares if Twitter turns into a failed business, and it will fail if users desert it in droves (I wouldn't buy a Tesla either).

Also, I don't buy the Daily Telegraph/Mail/Sun (or would watch Fox News), because I don't want to enrich these people and support their awful political stance.

Of course, there are always compromises to be made in real life, but consumption of specific media isn't essential.

[CharlesWT]

Currently, the New York Yankees have something in common the Pueblo people of the American Southwest.

[nous]

A deep appreciation for frybread tacos.

[CharlesWT]

They're both reliant on Clay Holmes.

[hairshirthedonist]

I find it strange that so many people who've had the greatest success under the current political system in the United States and with the influence the US has had around the world would support someone who wants to upend all of it. It's comic book villany.

[Donald]

I'm not boycotting Twitter, not now anyway. I knew more about Gaza from reading Twitter than from reading any of the MSM. To some degree this is because Twitter posters put up links to articles at real journals or newspapers (often foreign) I might not have known about, but there is also firsthand material and reporting there. The MSM was sometimes useful for validating that the things I saw on Twitter were real, but people on Twitter that one trusts do that anyway. I have seen countless videos put up by both IDF members and Hamas and later one reads about them in the NYT, but in a limited way. I don't always agree with the NYT spin on things I saw myself and one also sees things that I never see discussed in the NYT.

(I should say, given my usual NYT bashing, mostly deserved, that I think they are getting better--it is possible that Israel has gone so far they feel they have to be honest about it or lose all credibility. So they carried the opinion piece about the killing of children that we argued about here and they also just carried a very long overdue piece about how Israel uses Palestinian civilians as human shields. Habitually. In ways that the high command there has to know about.)

I'd be thrilled if there was Twitter were run by someone other than Musk, but the last thing I want would be social media under the control of nice responsible mainstream types, because I don't trust them either. For now, Twitter is useful from my POV.

[GftNC]

I absolutely don't think Musk cares as much about the Twitter money as he does about having the megaphone. Whether his calculation will change if the Orange One loses and it proves that he has thrown bad money after a trash candidate, we will see. I have thought (and said here) that I think Musk may be having some kind of mental breakdown (not speaking about his values, just about his erratic behaviour), but at the moment I think it more to do with drug use. In any case, for myself, I still follow certain people on Twitter (although most good ones, like hilzoy, have moved to bsky.social), but I would definitely not now buy a Tesla.

[liberal japonicus]

Back to the OP, my wife is a Shohei fan, which means she is a Dodgers fan, which means she is a baseball fan. She gets interested in person, which leads to interest in the sport.

So I'm watching, and I remember the observation that you could take everyone who has played major league ball, even as little as one game, and fit them into the smallest MLB park and there would still be empty seats

https://www.wiproud.com/news/local-news/how-many-people-have-played-professional-baseball/

Now, I wonder how much that figure increases if you included the Negro Leagues, Japanese pro baseball, maybe some other leagues.

There's also something about how much the sport requires engagement with the opponent. For tennis, every stroke goes to an opponent so there is an immediate feedback, and if you aren't up to snuff, you'll get crushed (cf: one out of 8 men think they can take a point off of Serena) So there is an effect of the sport, I think.

[wj]

The salient fact about baseball, I think, is that it forces individuals (as opposed to teams) to deal with failure. Repeated failure. And pick themselves up and keep going, over and over again.

Consider. Suppose you are someone who is an average hitter, roughly a .250 batting average.** That means that 3 times out of 4, when you go up to bat, you fail to get a hit. If you only fail 2 times out of 3, you are hitting .333, and probably one of the best hitters in the league. Fail only 3 times out of 5? It's been decades since anyone in the majors hit .400 for a season (Ted Williams in 1941; although Tony Gwynn of the Padres managed .394 in 1994). And most teams have at least 1 starting player who fails more than 5 times out of 6 (.167 average).

And yet, after each at bat, players are expected to put their failure behind them and keep going.

Is there another sport where repeated failure is not only common but expected, even of the best of the best?

** Yes, I know how batting averages are calculated. And that, by ignoring things like walks, sacrifice bunt and flies, etc., it's oversimplified. Work with me here.

[JanieM]

I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make, wj. Soccer and hockey players miss goals. Runners lose races.

Here's a chart of basketball players' average shooting percentages by position. I assume it's the NBA. (I will also note that in my most recent conversation about basketball with a stranger (the guy I bought my car from last winter), I didn't even recognize the positions he mentioned; the ones in the chart at the link are the ones I remember from 25 years ago when I paid attention.)

If those are averages, then obviously some players score less often and some more often than those numbers suggest.

[JanieM]

You miss a basket and the other team gets the rebound, you get your ass back on defense without a second thought....

For that matter, you have something you should be doing even if it's your own team that gets the rebound. You don't have any time in a dugout to process your failure.

[wj]

The OP being about being the best, the point is that baseball is a sport where, no matter how good you are, you fail substantially more often than you succeed. Yes, basketball players miss shots. But a guy who misses 2 shots out of 3 is just not the best. Not even on his team, let alone in the league. Note that in your table for every position the average success rate is above 40%. Whereas in baseball, nobody averages above .400. In short, there's a lot more failure.

But I do take your point that, in basketball as well, average players fail more than they succeed.

[liberal japonicus]

I don't know if this speaks to wj's point, but I don't know how someone could just appear from nowhere and do well in baseball. The skills have to evolve with the competition. However, folks coming from JPBL or from Cuba or Central America can come in and turn heads.

It's harder in tennis to imagine someone just coming from nowhere and giving even a player ranked in the top 100 in tennis and run for their money, but in the example Neil Adams gave, you realize that there is another infrastructure where people who don't participate in the competitive framework can still come in and give "the best" a run for their money.

Basketball is probably a sport where an 'unknown' could come in and light up another team. I remember this story about Ed 'Booger' Smith in Sports Illustrated
https://vault.si.com/vault/1997/08/18/asphalt-legends-twenty-years-after-his-groundbreaking-book-on-summer-hoops-the-author-returned-to-new-york-to-check-out-the-state-of-the-city-game

The separate framework allows them to develop their skills. For sports like running or swimming, you can imagine (perhaps faintly) imagining someone who trains apart from everyone and then explodes.

Of course, this gets to at the definition of 'unknown'.

[wj]

lj, I think that ability to "come from nowhere" depends a lot on whether we're talking about an individual sport or a team sport.

An individual can train in obscurity in an individual sport (with, in some cases, a single coach/training opponent). But for a team sport, you've got to practice coordinating with others. To the point that it verges on the reflexive a lot of the time. (And the all-stars tend to be the folks who know when to occasionally step outside that framework.)

[liberal japonicus]

Sure, individual vs team has an impact, which makes it more noticeable when it is a team sport. 'nowhere' is of course relative, but Kurt Warner and Jeremy Lin are two come to mind.

[nous]

One thing that I think needs mention in this besides individual versus team sport is the degree of variability involved as well. A basketball player shooting free throws is chasing a fairly standard skill. The parameters are fixed. A batter has to contend with the skill of the pitcher, the craft of the catcher calling the pitches, and the reliability of the umpire in calling the balls and strikes. That leads to a lot of things being outside of the batter's control. Hockey has this quality as well, which manifests in both sports as a healthy dose of player superstitions. I used to teach an anthropology essay about baseball superstitions.

Downhill mountain biking has this sort of variability as well. It's individual, and every course is both different from each other and subject to huge changes in condition due to weather and to the effects of wear on the course over a race weekend. It makes for a huge amount of unpredictability, and a low ranked rider with no factory team support can sometimes luck into a fastest run as fog and rain moves in right after their early run to make a course treacherous and slower.

In the last few years at least one rider I can think of went from racing weekends as a privateer with no experience at the junior level, to a factory team spot and a top five rank in the world injust a couple seasons.

[nous]

And to wj's point about practice, the rider in question (Ronan Dunne) could not practice on the sorts of courses he would race on without entering the World Cup races, but he did have a background in bicycle trials that gave him extraordinary control over balance and bike handling as a base on which to build.

[Michael Cain]

Some years back USA Fencing began funding some of the top fencers to go compete in international competitions. Not only to give US fencers experience with a generally higher level, but experience against specific other fencers. And referees. The US fencing squad has become more competitive in the Olympics and World Cup-related events, including Lee Kiefer, the best women's foilist in the world for the last decade.

[bobbyp]

Are Trump's extraordinary abilities at grifting and conning people innate or learned? Did he have to endure hours of practice to master this "craft"? Did he "come from nowhere"?

Curious people want to know.

Vote early. Vote often.

[hairshirthedonist]

Are Trump's extraordinary abilities at grifting and conning people innate or learned? Did he have to endure hours of practice to master this "craft"?

I know this was in jest, BUT he was raised from an early age to be a world class a$$hole. At the same time, his older brother was supposed to be "the killer" but didn't have the stomach for it, so it never took. My answer is "both."

Did he "come from nowhere"?

Like "sui generis"?

[wj]

Did he have to endure hours of practice to master this "craft"?

It's a bit difficult to be certain, at least without doing a deep dive into his early life. But he has definitely spent decades mastering the techniques of his craft.

So I incline to learned. Both for the techniques and for the lack of morality which allows him to use it -- learned that at his father's knee.

[GftNC]

For some light relief on another "political" contest, this is Marina Hyde on the current Tory leadership race:

And you have to say that this week the race to be the person regicided by the Tory party in two years’ time has certainly warmed up. It is now almost tepid. The choice is between Kemi “I’m an engineer” Badenoch and Ozempic survivor Robert Jenrick, a would-be populist who on Wednesday had to be told live on air – the day after it happened – who the new England football manager was. Sort your life out, Jenrick.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/18/kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-gb-news-tory-contest

[Donald]

Plimpton in “ Shadowbox” talks about the average guy vs professionals in boxing. Billie Conn says the ordinary person has zero chance. As a counter to this Plimptin found some story tokd by a British aristocrat who claims to have beaten John L Sullivan in some private match, but there was no way to know if it happened. Also, there is some difference of opinion regarding how skilled those 19th century boxers were ( I have seen that debate elsewhere, but not in Plimpton). If Sullivan was just some big guy who could hit hard and not especially skilled you could imagine someone equally strong beating him.

The book itself was, I thought, very funny, even if I just made it sound fairly boring.

[wj]

There are times and places where BFMI (Brute Force and Massive Ignorance) can work. But there are a lot more where finesse is required -- perhaps combined with brute force, but applied carefully. And finesse takes technique, which takes practice.

[liberal japonicus]

I'd forgotten about Plimpton, and that was his shtick. Paper Lion was about Plimpton as a quarterback, he also tried pitching and being a hockey goalie. I guess he'd be making Tik-tok videos today.

It's hard to imagine anyone trying that now, the absence of a physical build of a pro athlete would be a dead giveaway. The Wikipedia about the book has this
"He tried to blend in with the rest of the team, but after a while you could just see that George wasn't much of an athlete. You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to figure that one out. You're in training camp and you're all pretty good football players, and George comes along, and he's sort of emaciated looking, you know he's not too physical of a specimen. And he couldn't throw the ball more than 15 yards."

Looking at the bodies of current football players, he'd be even more out of place today.

[Donald]

I’ve thought of reading Plimpton’s other sports books, but boxing interests me and football doesn’t. In general I am an armchair martial artist— it is fun to read about but the closest I came to practice was a year or two of Tai Chi, which is good for other things ( like balance) and also lets a middle aged suburbanite pretend he is doing Chinese martial arts ( which of course it comes from) without the inconvenience of being hit, kicked, thrown, grappled, or having one’s limbs twisted.

[CharlesWT]

I ask an oracle. :)

What sports, professions, and other activities might someone suddenly appear extremely proficient without a history of intense effort and dedication?

"While many activities require years of practice and dedication to master, some individuals may demonstrate a sudden, seemingly inexplicable level of proficiency in certain sports, professions, or other activities due to a combination of natural aptitude, transferable skills, or unique cognitive and physical advantages. Here are some categories where this phenomenon could occur:"
Sudden Expertise

[Michael Cain]

And finesse takes technique, which takes practice.

I've seen video of a couple of the charity 1-on-1 games Brian Scalabrine -- NBA power forward, strictly bench rather than starter -- played against amateur challengers years after he retired. One of the things that really stands out is Scalabrine's footwork. It's absolutely impeccable. He's never off-balance, he's never caught on the wrong foot. When I saw it, my first thought was, "How many hours of being yelled at for making a mistake does it take to get footwork that good?"

Every fencing coach I ever had eventually dropped some version of the line, "It's not possible to practice your footwork too much."