Lewiston

by JanieM

Thanks for the good thoughts in the other thread, everyone. I am safe at home, as is everyone among my family and friends as far as I know. It is 7:30 a.m., the next morning, and the suspected shooter still has not been found. Schools are closed all over central Maine, including the one near me – which, I grieve to say, has been at the edge of my worries about mass shootings for a long time, given that it has had a couple of bomb threats over the years and that school shootings have – horrifyingly! how?! – become an event people train to meet in this era in this land.

Pollo de Muerte – yes, I felt the dread immediately. Usually I find it hard not to roll my eyes at unsolicited advice, but in this case I appreciate it and will take it to heart.

I have a semi-distant relative whom I’ve never met, who was with her daughter at the concert in Las Vegas in 2017 where another mass shooting took place. She and her daughter were unhurt, but having someone connected to me there made the horror of it a little more vivid. Not that in the abstract I wasn’t continually horrified to begin with, but there’s a difference between rational recognition and the ability to imagine something in the gut.

This, as Pollo says, is different. The area where the shootings took place is familiar – I’ve spent a lot of time in Lewiston and Auburn over the years (they are twin cities on opposite sides of the Androscoggin River). I know people connected to Bates College, which is about midway between the two shooting sites, and have gone to events there and taken pictures of the campus. I have tried to imagine this feeling, but I never really got it until now, and this is without a doubt absolutely nothing compared to actually being caught up in an event like this.  (And I am not forgetting, as I write, that actual bombs are falling on actual people’s actual neighborhoods in other places in the world. “It can’t happen here” recedes ever further into fantasy land.)

As to what is wrong with this country that a good portion of it in effect worships the “freedom” to own weapons that will let people perpetrate this kind of horror – I am out of words.

The picture is of Lewiston, taken from the Auburn side of the Androscoggin. Bigger version here here.

Comments

[JanieM]

Going to try to get a little more sleep. Will be wondering why the freedom to commit mass murder is more important than the freedom to live without fear of being shot by the dozen when we go bowling, or to church / mosque / synagogue, or ... to school.

Or rather, why those of us who want the former freedom can't figure out how to achieve it.

[Donald]

There is a bizarre fanaticism about guns in the US. Not with everyone, but the fanatics get their way. It’s like a large fraction of Americans had this thing about medieval weaponry ( which is indeed cool) and insisted on their right to carry broadswords or crossbows or longbows around for self protection. Not an exact analogy, but the idiocy is on that level. The medieval weapons fetishists would be much less dangerous on average.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"The medieval weapons fetishists would be much less dangerous on average."

You can have my extremely sharp ax when you pry it out of the cold dead noggin of an annoying christianist.

I'll just get another.

[Hartmut]

reposted from other thread:

I noticed the first attempts by rightwingers to paint the perpetrator as a Democrat.
My first prediction thus coming true.

I expect two further things:
1) claims that this is somehow Hamas related (also to the open Southern border; this latter claim has arguably already been made).
2) claims that this is another hoax by the gun grabbers to undermine the 2nd amendment.
In any case it is all Joe Biden's fault, naturally (the senile master puppeteer who's just a puppet of Obama, George Soros* and Hugo Chavez).

Why am I not in the least surprised?

*the rabidly antisemitic international Jewry must of course be behind it but that goes without saying [/sarcasm]

[Pollo de muerte]

Will be wondering why the freedom to commit mass murder is more important than the freedom to live without fear of being shot by the dozen when we go bowling, or to church / mosque / synagogue, or ... to school.

I teach constitutional law to fifth graders at an inner city school here in Orlando. I start with the concept of "rights" in general and immediately segue into "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." These underprivileged eight-year-olds immediately grasp the concept. There is no good faith argument for what the gun lobby has wrought.

[hairshirthedonist]

I'm glad you're safe, Janie.

[Hartmut]

There is no good faith argument for what the gun lobby has wrought.

Hey, they are people of faith. No specification whether good or bad.

[Girl from the North Country]

I've said it before, and so has Pro Bono and other non-Americans, but the US situation regarding guns is literally incomprehensible to anybody in pretty much the whole rest of the world.

All we can hope, and we do, is that sane people (obviously, I'm thinking most particularly here of Janie at the moment) stay safe, and that somehow, eventually, the lunacy will end.

[Pete]

Followed this 'til I couldn't keep my eyes open last night, hoping for an "All Secure" that never came. This may go on for a while, especially if the suspect got west of 95.

I hope your larder is full and you can stay put for a while, Janie. I'm so, so sorry.

Maine is safe, dammit! :-(

[CaseyL]

Maine is one of the last places I would have expected a mass shooting, because although it has a bedrock gun culture it's also a sparsely-populated state, where people don't have many opportunities to get in one another's way.

But Maine isn't immune to the psychological blights the US has up to its gunwales: anomie and alienation. Plus a scant-to-nonexistent safety net, particularly for people with mental disorders, including violent ones.

My heart breaks for the people of Lewiston, and Maine. We know what the solution is, and we know we'll never be allowed to enact it while the GOP and the current SCOTUS run things.

[hairshirthedonist]

There is a model. It's called "Australia." But we have an amendment that is loosely worded enough that a well-funded constituency is having its way with the rest of us.

[JanieM]

Maine is safe, dammit! :-(

.....

Maine is one of the last places I would have expected a mass shooting, because although it has a bedrock gun culture it's also a sparsely-populated state, where people don't have many opportunities to get in one another's way.

Maine has had the lowest, or one of the lowest, rates of violent crime and murder of all the states. I looked these stats up within the past few months, but I don't have the heart to do it again right now. Not that it matters, except that I think you could sort of feel that in the air (per Pete's comment) -- and that certainly gave me a false sense of security, even though I knew that crimes like this mass shooting are not predictable.

[CaseyL]

JanieM - Maine and Vermont, yes. The lowest violent crime rates in the country.

Mass shootings in the US are predictable in the sense that they happen nearly daily. We might not know precisely where and when, but we do know they will happen. More reliable than the weather, in fact.

[JanieM]

CaseyL -- yes, of course, they're predictable in the aggregate, to our great grief and shame as Americans. IHMO.

I just meant that in a state with so little violent crime, and yet lots of guns, and as you say, people spread out for the most part, I was complacent about the risks.

I probably felt at even lower risk, since I never go out to where people gather anymore anyhow. Then again, there's the grocery store....

[CaseyL]

JanieM - Home grocery delivery FTW!

More seriously: I don't know how to guard against mass shootings (no one does). If you're semi-hermetic by inclination anyway, that's certainly a plus.

I think USians have learned to regard mass murder as something like earthquakes: you just have to live your life as you wish, knowing the planet could kill you at any time without warning.

(Speaking as someone who lives in the earthquake-prone PNW.)

[JanieM]

Home grocery delivery, or for that matter pickup -- I haven't crossed that Rubicon, in part because I don't trust anyone else to pick out my produce. ;-)

[nous]

Hoping they find this guy soon so that things can get back to regular abnormal. Stay safe JanieM.

I read Ryan Busse's Gunfight: My Battle Against the Industry that Radicalized America over the summer. It's an insider's look at the gun industry during the rise of the AR-15 from niche product to Ammo Jesus' Holy Relic of Salvation.

Busse's persona grates in places, but the whole thing very much tracks with the bits and pieces I know from my research on these communities.

[Donald]

the US situation regarding guns is literally incomprehensible to anybody in pretty much the whole rest of the world."

It's not that different for some of us here. It is just bizarre. Ages ago, in the primitive days of usenet, I think, someone asked me if I was a "gun grabber". I felt like I was dealing with a member of some strange cult.

[hairshirthedonist]

A headline from wgme.com:

"Lewiston mass shootings mark worst in U.S. so far this year, report finds"

So far. This year.

[bobbyp]

So far. This year.

Lewiston, Idaho, might be next. You never know.

[Girl from the North Country]

Boy, I never expected to see footage in a lengthy piece from round Janie's neck of the woods on C4 News. I hope I never have to again.

Janie, I got used to remote ordering of groceries during the pandemic, and actually sometime before as well. There is some produce which is not too risky to leave to them to select, at least here: I have pretty good experience with courgettes (zucchini) and aubergines (eggplants), for example, as well as washed bags of spinach and also what we call cavolo nero, and I think you guys call lacinato kale. (Apologies - I think I am sublimating and projecting vicarious comfort by imagining you making the food of your grandparental heritage.) God, I hope you can stay indoors until this guy is caught.

[JanieM]

GftNC -- I could bend on the grocery pickup if I had to, but I was lucky enough to have my son shop for me for the first year of covid, then I kind of missed it so I started going again myself. Still wearing a mask, always glad to see there are a few other such stragglers. The items you mention are, yes, probably okay for other people to pick out. Leafy stuff is the sketchiest, and even the packaged leafy stuff has a date issue...

But those are first world problems for sure. Basically, I just kind of enjoy food shopping.

Your mention of eggplant reminds me that there was a bag of stunningly beautiful ones in the store yesterday; usually they've got at least some marks and flaws. Back when I had a garden, I'm not sure there was anything (even freshly picked tomatoes!) more enticing than a perfect, unblemished eggplant.

[hairshirthedonist]

I can eat fried eggplant for days.

[wj]

There is no good faith argument for what the gun lobby has wrought.

Hey, they are people of faith.

The gun lobby has wrought exactly what they intended when they took over the NRA and made it a sales and marketing body: they sold lots and lots and lots of guns. Marketing, by its nature, keeps faith only with the guys paying the (advertising) bills.

The "people of faith" put their faith in the hype of a massive, and long running, marketing marketing campaign. In short, they got conned -- seems to be a core competency.

[Girl from the North Country]

I'm not sure there was anything (even freshly picked tomatoes!) more enticing than a perfect, unblemished eggplant

Not enticing to contemplate eating (although apparently the Romans thought them delicacies), but how about a perfect hazel dormouse asleep in someone's hand? David Attenborough calls them "England's most charming animals".

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/26/a-joy-to-watch-uk-rewilding-brings-endangered-species-back-from-brink

I'll try anything, even a mad segue, to distract you from the horror outside....

[JanieM]

Thanks, GftNC....A dormouse belongs in a fairy story, doesn't it? :-)

*****

From the Portland paper online, which has suspended its paywall for this topic, and is updating the article ad hoc:

Multiple gunshots were fired outside a home in Bowdoin that is believed to be connected to the man police suspect killed 18 people in Lewiston.

Law enforcement officers were standing along 911 Meadow Road Thursday afternoon with long guns pointed at a truck in a large field next to the home. At least four loud booms were heard.

The property is owned by Ryan and Katie Card, according to town records. No cars were in the driveway.

If nothing else, this development has made the reporter stop leading resentfully with the information that the police aren't telling him all about what they're doing.

They keep shuffling the pictures, but the current #4 looks like most of the landscape I drive through every week. Bucolic, unfortunately sometimes hiding horrors.

[Michael Cain]

A dormouse belongs in a fairy story, doesn't it?

The only literary one I recall is from Alice in Wonderland. Wikipedia suggests that no one actually knows where the name "dormouse" comes from. Lots of speculation, though. The Romans raised them to eat, and considered them a delicacy.

[Girl from the North Country]

Also, I remember that in one of the books about the Mitford sisters (either one of the autobiographical novels by Nancy Mitford, or one of the many books about them) their obsession with animals included one daughter keeping a dormouse as a pet in her pocket most of the time. They were an interesting bunch, from Nazis (Diana and Unity) to communists (Decca - she of The American Way of Death), and I did love The Pursuit of Love and Love in a Cold Climate (the books, not appalling televisations), but the only thing I envied and still envy is the pet dormouse.

[JanieM]

Profiles of some of the victims.

[Brett Bellmore]

Doubtless futile to write this, for multiple reasons, but I'll try:

Pollo says, "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins"; Bravo! But do any of you really understand what that implies?

Because you seem keen to go around chopping hands off at the wrist from people who haven't punched anybody...

[Pro Bono]

Everyone should have a thermonuclear missile, but anyone who fires their missile without good reason shouldn't be allowed one in future. Is that right?

[Hartmut]

We once had a guy here who thought that portable nukes are covered by the 2nd A.

[liberal japonicus]

Doubtless futile to write this, for multiple reasons, but I'll try:

Pollo says, "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins"; Bravo! But do any of you really understand what that implies?

Because you seem keen to go around chopping hands off at the wrist from people who haven't punched anybody...

This is pretty fascinating as a sociological document.

Getting your hand lopped off is a feature of Islamic justices known as Hudud.
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/stoning-and-hand-cutting-understanding-the-hudud-and-the-shariah-in-islam

Often the only things people in the West associate with Islam are stoning and hand chopping. These images permeate our culture, from the trailer of hits like Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (1991) to straight-to-cable pablum like Escape: Human Cargo (1998) (again, in the trailer... ‘If you can’t live by their rules, you might die by them’).

The article is a deep dive into aspects of hudud. Of course, as one might expect, it's not solely something done in Islam
https://strangeremains.com/2014/04/06/a-criminals-relic-the-macabre-history-of-severed-hands/

Now, nothing in Pollo's comment mentioned anything about hand severing, but Brett feels that this is something that is connected to Pollo's comment and we, as fuzzy minded liberal/leftist/progressives, really don't know what it implies. Does it imply the chopping off of hands? I don't know how that works, and I think it tells a lot more about the sorts of things that Brett is connecting to people here than anything that any of us are saying. Or actually believe. But I imagine that this is along the same lines as the departed McT's belief that we are all Team Hamas here.

Here in Japan, the big story in the news this morning was that a 75 year old driver hit 3 elementary school kids on their way to school. A terrible tragedy, but a whole hell of a lot better than waking up to reporting on Lewistown.

[wj]

Just for the record, this fuzzy-minded conservative thinks bringing up hand chopping was a ridiculous extrapolation with no basis that I can see. I could posit projection with at least as much justification. (And that would be pretty silly, too.)

[nous]

I'll engage in good faith here, Brett.

No one is even remotely talking about the 2A equivalent of cutting off hands. Banning assault rifles is not the equivalent of taking away a person's right to make a fist, rather it is the equivalent of banning brass knuckles. Twenty-one states already do exactly that.

An AR-15 is not a part of anyone's person, no matter how attached to it a person might feel from an identity standpoint. Framing it as such is a conditioned amygdala hijack.

[Girl from the North Country]

Brett Bellmore - talk about a rave from the grave! I have forgotten almost all of it, but I seem to remember he had a bee in his bonnet about the right to bear arms....also, maybe, abortion?

[JanieM]

I know a lawyer who argues that the spirit of the 2nd Amendment in relation to weaponry means exactly what Hartmut mentioned (the right to own portable nukes shall not be infringed). But who also points out that the weaponry is supposed to be used only by members of militias. (The definition and prevalence of which has also changed over the centuries, like other things mentioned below.)

Times change. Even if we could agree that the 2A really applies to weapons of mass murder, which we don't, amendments are repealable. Also, as a society we regulate all kinds of dangerous things -- I didn't know about brass knuckles, but think of poisons, both human and environmental.

IIRC Brett (who was banned from here in 2015; I don't know why he's getting through the Typepad block now) is an extreme libertarian. If you don't recognize the right of society to put any limits whatsoever on the "freedom" of individuals, then of course you won't care that hundreds of people, including schoolchildren, are murdered every year with war-making machines. I, on the other hand, think that the collective “we” has a right to weigh one good against another, and place some limits on one kind of “freedom” in order to foster another, i.e. the freedom to go about your business every day – to school, to church, to work, to the bowling alley or out for dinner – without having to fear being caught up on a murderous bloodbath, and without having to be trained – as five-year-olds are – on what to (uselessly) do if you get caught up in one.

[hairshirthedonist]

Analogies and metaphors always have their limits. You could ask, "How close to my (your) nose are you (am I) allowed to swing your (my) fists? Is there a point where the threat of being hit becomes an undue burden for me (you) to bear?" (See how it goes both ways here?)

I recall Brett being prone to using metaphors to make his points. It's a convenient way to gloss over nuance if that's your goal. (Or it demonstrates that the nuance is lost on you.)

[hairshirthedonist]

And that's not a swipe at Pollo. Introducing the concept to 5th graders via metaphor is one thing. Extending the metaphor beyond its limits to demonize the commenters here is another.

[JanieM]

Thanks, hsh. I'm not sure how much trollery and Gish Galloping with nonsensical propositions I'm going to tolerate, but I'm letting it go on for now.

[Pete]

Firearms deer season opens for residents tomorrow and general on the 30th, according to the IFW site. I'm not a hunter, but I imagine that means tag stations, trail cams, and a lot of guys with guns in rural areas.

Or not. I dunno what that's gonna look like. But maybe the hunting community could aid law enforcement & cross some search areas off the list?

[bobbyp]

I have forgotten almost all of it, but I seem to remember he had a bee in his bonnet about the right to bear arms....also, maybe, abortion?

Many bees, many bonnets, but what really got him going was low flush toilets and incandescent light bulbs.

My take on the 2nd amendment is if you elide the part about "militias" then I am entirely free (there's that word) to ignore the part about "shall not be infringed".

Fair is fair, right (that word, too)?

[hairshirthedonist]

...and incandescent light bulbs.

Will no one think of the chickens?

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Blast from the past: you can still get incandescent light bulbs, with a LEFT HAND screw base.

Clearly a leftist plot, amirite?

[JanieM]

Pete -- I turned on the press conference this morning and whoever was talking was saying something about people in the woods, and how that makes this manhunt more difficult. I can't even imagine how hundreds of hunters in camo with guns is going to work.... Even if they were *trying* to help with the search, how do the police know who's who? Great hiding mechanism for the killer....

But I don't see anything online about postponing firearms deer season.

[JanieM]

@Snarki -- during the Clickbait era, they made it so you could get incandescent bulbs, period. I don't even know if we've gone back to a ban. I have a stock of incandescent 60-watt bulbs in the attic -- others seem to encourage my migraines, though of course that's no more than anecdata. Still, I prefer to keep using incandescent, and take out my energy savings in other ways, like not having a clothes dryer, among other things.

[Michael Cain]

LIHEAP (Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program) now counts replacing incandescents with LEDs as a decrease in electricity demand and an increase in winter heating demand.

My municipal utility includes a quarterly flyer with the bill that shows your electricity use, the average electricity use for similar housing in your area, and the use for the subset of that housing they consider efficient. For the first full quarter of living by myself, I used quite a bit less than the efficient households.

[JanieM]

Re: hunting season starting. Discussions are underway about what to do about it.

(In my experience, "hunting season" is synonymous with "deer hunt, rifle season.")

[Michael Cain]

In my experience, "hunting season" is synonymous with "deer hunt, rifle season."

You have trees. Where I was a kid, hunting season was much more about pheasants and shotguns. Ditto for my Mom, whose birthday was Nov 11, the traditional day in her state for the opening of pheasant season. She hated it, because the men and older male children all left early in the morning that day and didn't get back until after dark, too tired to do a birthday party.

[JanieM]

From the Portland Press-Herald:

Live updates: Suicide note found in suspect’s home, sources say
BY STAFF REPORT

12:45 p.m. Investigators found a note at a home associated with Maine mass shooting suspect Robert Card on Thursday that was addressed to his son, two law enforcement officials told The Associated Press.

The officials described it as a suicide note but said it didn’t provide any specific motive for the shooting. Card’s cellphone had also been recovered in the home, making a search more complicated because authorities routinely use phones to track suspects, the official said.

A gun was found in the white Subaru that Card abandoned, the officials said. Federal agents were testing the gun to determine if it was used in the shooting and conducting a trace to determine when and where the gun was obtained, the officials said.

Federal agents conducted several searches of properties associated with Card on Thursday, collecting a number of items, including electronics.

Investigators are also analyzing Card’s financial information and reviewing his social media posts, writings and his mental health history, the officials said. The officials were not authorized to publicly discuss details of the investigation and spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.

[Girl from the North Country]

Where I was a kid, hunting season was much more about pheasants and shotguns

Sounds like rural England, although admittedly it is not a hugely widespread sport here (except among the upper classes).

Many bees, many bonnets, but what really got him going was low flush toilets and incandescent light bulbs.

How could I have forgotten?! But as I have said before to russell, the commenter I really mourn having forgotten (or more likely, never encountered) is the space bat guy. I long to hear his stuff....

[Pete]

I can't even imagine how hundreds of hunters in camo with guns is going to work....

I was thinking along the lines that people have GPS and other gadgets (I think many trail cams have motion sensors, frex) and could report on activity - perhaps more importantly a lack thereof - in whatever ground they covered. I'd think that would be fairly trivial to upload. Or check-in at a tagging station? Again, I don't know what the hunting scene looks like and it may be more hindrance than help, logistically, even with a willing community. I obviously haven't thought it through, even if I had the capacity. But it seems like a resource that might have some utility.

I was just making the firearms distinction from bow hunting, which I believe is earlier in the year, a smaller population, and significantly less alarming to people on edge over the sound of gunfire.

FYI, the moderators of the Maine subreddit are doing a good job of curating info. Link is to the latest post.

[Pollo de muerte]

It probably doesn't need to be clarified, but just in case, I was not referring to "chopping off hands" at all. Not even a little.

The "quote" I used has been attributed to Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., but that may be apocryphal.

It was only intended to highlight that even in a society that maximizes personal freedom, rights are not limitless. Those freedoms end where someone else’s begin, i.e., the right of gun owners should not override the rights of those who choose not to be armed.

[JanieM]

Thanks for the subreddit link, Pete.

I knew why you were making the firearms distinction. I was just sort of apologizing for using the less specific phrase, which is the colloquial one I know.

[Girl from the North Country]

I can't believe they haven't found the guy yet. This must be a really strange and chilling time to be near by, Janie, and I only hope you're doing OK. Fingers crossed for a resolution to the immediate problem asap. The resolution to the long term problem, as we discuss ad nauseam, seems as far off as ever. First things first.

[JanieM]

He was found dead in the woods. More when I can.

[wj]

What gets me about guns (besides the obvious stupidity of allowing things like AR-15s at all), is the resistance to any regulation at all.

When I was in the military, ongoing training was required. Even Air Force officers were required to requalify annually. For all that there was next to zero chance that any of us, outside maybe the SP officers, would ever have occasion to use them. So why not civilians? Even just as often as you renew your driver's license would be a step forward. Make sure the guy with the gun can actually hit what he's aiming at, instead of passersby.

And, for those enamoured of "original intent", note that guns were definitely regulated back when the Constitution was written. (And that's ignoring, as seems to be the case today, the part about "a well regulated militia.")

Or, if the "Wild West" is your thing, note that all those storied, wide open, cow towns required anyone coming in to town to check their guns on arrival. Remember the gunfight at the OK corral? The driver for that was that the Clantons refused to check their guns as required. Guns for anybody, even in a non-rural environment, is a strictly modern perversion.

[CharlesWT]

And, for those enamoured of "original intent", note that guns were definitely regulated back when the Constitution was written.

Where and how were they regulated? I know some states prohibited slaves and Native Americans from owning firearms. Otherwise, I thought there were very few restrictions on the civilian possession of firearms.

[wj]

Allow me to point you to
https://rockinst.org/issue-area/gun-law-history-united-states-second-amendment-rights/

Pre-1790 there were carry restrictions, bans on brandishing, registration and licencing requirements, restrictions on sales/possession by felons and various other groups deemed dangerous, etc., etc. Not to mention numerous regulations of militias, as referenced in the 2nd Amendment.

No doubt you can find more information with a little quality time with Google.

[Hartmut]

Hey, the founders (verbally inspired by Lörd Almighty*) just had no idea what they were truly putting into that sacred document and it took His annointed SCOTUSians to clarencify and alighto us to it. Apart from that all those historical documents about regulations are clearly crude forgeries (like the Texas declaration of secession** or the treaty of Tripoli***)

Sorry, I am in a particularly bad and sarcastic mood this morning.

*and copy-pasting directly from the Bible as the likes of David Barton claim
**from what I read, it's a firing offense for Texan teachers to make that available to students
***at least Art. 11

[Pro Bono]

We once had a guy here who thought that portable nukes are covered by the 2nd A.

I can't see why any weapon one could carry isn't covered - if the framers had intended to exclude some weapons, they could have done.

I'm not even sure that "bear" should be taken to mean one has to be able to carry them.

[Donald]

In the 1700’s and before the closest you could come to a nuke wouild be something like the Gunpowder plot. I could imagine a single person carrying around a small barrel of gunpowder with a lit cord ready to set it off— if that was a real possibility, something they actually had to deal with, I bet the 2nd Amendment would not have been understood to include that.

Back then if you wanted to be an individual mass murderer you coukd carry a large number of single shot pistols on your belt like some Hollywood pirate, and a musket and a sword. And if someone went around like that I imagine he would be seen as a possible madman ready to go off.

Though from what I have read in Albion’s Seed, the misnamed Scots- Irish culture was extremely violent— their idea of a fun little fight involved mutiliation— and people in other subcultures were prone to dueling. But I just can’t think of any cases of individuals going off trying to kill as many random people as possible. ( Nat Turner’s revolt and various massacres between whites and Native Americans come to mind, but that involves groups and a completely different context.. Later there are lynch mobs. Also different.)

[Donald]

“ But I just can’t think of any cases of individuals going off trying to kill as many random people as possible.”

Though I guess it probably happened. But it would be very difficult for one person to kill a large number of people with the weapons back then. Not like the US today where it happens all the time.

[JanieM]

We once had a guy here who thought that portable nukes are covered by the 2nd A.

I can't see why any weapon one could carry isn't covered - if the framers had intended to exclude some weapons, they could have done.

A lawyer friend of mine says the same thing about nukes. On the other hand, he also points to the erasure in recent times of the connection to a formal militia. (I don't think it has ever occured to him to get into what "bear" means.)

And -- amendments can be amended.

It's funny how so many of the same people who want the most expansive possible interpretation of the 2nd amendment also want to pretend the first doesn't exist. As in, *their* religion is the "established" one, and other people have no right to freedom from it.

[Michael Cain]

It's interesting how restrictive some places' knife laws are. I have paring knives that are technically illegal for me to carry off my property in Massachusetts.

[Pete]

Closure, for the imminent threat. I’m in Brooklyn today, first time in years in my old neighborhood. Standing on the subway platform, the old thoughts of “Will this be the day that some crazy person pushes me onto the tracks? Or slashes me with a box cutter?” re-emerge.

Fact of life, unfortunately.

Be well, Maine.

[Girl from the North Country]

Thank heavens.

[wj]

and people in other subcultures were prone to dueling.

Regarding which there were also laws in several states back in the day. IANAL, so I have no idea whether those are still on the books.

It's interesting how restrictive some places' knife laws are. I have paring knives that are technically illegal for me to carry off my property in Massachusetts.

The Bowie knife seems to have inspired legal restrictions on knives in a number of states. Apparently "arms" wasn't narrowly construed to mean guns. And the 2nd Amendment wasn't seen as forbidding regulation of those either.

[Michael Cain]

Apparently "arms" wasn't narrowly construed to mean guns.

Bayonet charges were not uncommon during the American Revolutionary War, by both sides. A properly equipped member of the militia almost certainly carried one.

[Hartmut]

Iirc there was a case just a few years ago, where it got officially decided that one was allowed to carry guns in a certain location (some statehouse, I think) but not bladed weapons since the former were covered by the 2nd A, the latter not. And this was about knives not swords, battleaxes, halberds or the like. So it could be not just unwise to bring a knife to a gunfight but outright illegal in parts of the US.

A quick google hit (not covering the case I think I remember):
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-legal-in-some-US-states-to-carry-a-gun-and-not-a-knife

I wonder, whether fasces (with hatchets) are allowed. Should be since it would be "fascis secure" [/lame Latin pun]

[Hartmut]

Bayonet charges were not uncommon during the American Revolutionary War, by both sides. A properly equipped member of the militia almost certainly carried one.

I think those would not have been knife/sword bayonets but socket bayonets. The former came into common use only later (and initially only for jaeger units). Socket bayonets are a wee bit impractical as a knife or sword substitute.

[nous]

As someone who trained in a blade-oriented martial system for several years, I can say that knife regulations are a mostly irrational patchwork that does next to nothing for public safety.

I'll also say that the typical tactical idiots' received knowledge on the topic is not a body of martial practice so much as it is a kink with a twisted fantasy life.

And also, I want no part of actually having to use a knife in self-defense, and have even less desire to ever have to defend myself against one.

And a bayonet, properly used, has more in common with a spear than a sword or knife, and even so, the actual martial value of it is not particularly high. They were favored, I believe, for the psychological effects more than for any practical tactical reasons.

(The more cynical side of me thinks that they may have been used in part to keep your infantry from dropping their heavy muskets on the ground when the fighting came into contact range. Too many expensive weapons littering the ground to be picked up by the opposing side. Sticking a point on the ten pound club keeps it in the hands of the soldier and subjects the stock to far less abuse. Just speculating here.)

[JanieM]

Op-ed in the Portland paper. Nemitz says some things I'd like to explore when I get time. This will have to do for now.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

If bringing guns into the statehouse is a-okay by 2A, but not swords, how about BAGPIPES?

IIRC, there were some (amusing to us moderns) laws in England regarding bagpipes as "weapons of war".

Oh, and those statehouses, they DESERVE the bagpipe treatment.

[wj]

The article Janiem links to asks: "Is this [mass shooting right in their backyard] what it takes to move recalcitrant members of Congress away from the gun industry lobbyists and toward some semblance of sanity?"

The answer would seem to be that, for some, it is what is necessary. However, for a depressing number, it is simply not sufficient. Likely nothing would be -- possibly including members of their immediate family in one. After all, at least one congressman (Steve Scalise IIRC) got shot himself, and still didn't change his pro-gun position.

[wj]

how about BAGPIPES?

Are we just talking war pipes here? Or are we including house pipes as well?

[GftNC]

Well, the 15th Lord Lovat (whose commando group was so hated and feared by the Nazis that "first Von Runstedt and then Hitler in 1942 ordered their slaughter when captured down to the last man. Lovat had 100,000 Reich marks placed on his head, dead or alive. The infamous "Commando Order".") was determined to have his piper play during the Normandy landings and after:

https://www.history.co.uk/article/the-bagpiper-of-d-day

[CharlesWT]

IIRC, there were some (amusing to us moderns) laws in England regarding bagpipes as "weapons of war".

It's because, if you listen to bagpipes long enough, you become both suicidal and homicidal.