The subterranean streams of se acabó

by liberal japonicus

I think that since most of us here are not fanatical followers of sports in general or football/soccer in particular, an interesting discussion might be had about everything related to the unsolicited kiss from Rubiales, head of the Spanish Soccer Federation. If you aren't aware of any of this, basically, the Spanish women's World Cup team won the most recent World Cup, defeating England. At the award ceremony, Luis Rubiales kissed Spanish forward Jenni Hermoso. This link gives a breakdown of the timeline:
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/08/29/jenni-hermoso-luis-rubiales-kiss-row-womens-world-cup-spain/

That link gives an apparent quote by Hermoso, but some have suggested that the quote was not from Hermoso, but from the Spanish Football Federation

According to the sports media Relevo.com, the statements released by the Spanish Football Federation after the 'unacceptable' kiss were not made by Jenni Hermoso as they had led people to believe.

The Spanish Football Federation has been accused of "faking" comments by World Cup star Jenni Hermoso, where it appeared that she downplayed a controversial kiss from the federation's president.

This Slate article has an interesting discussion basically saying that Rubiales and the rest of the men running Spanish soccer were run over by a truck they didn't even notice was barrelling down on them

Because Rubiales and RFEF were too blinded by their own egos and machismo to treat the players right, support their historic win in an appropriate fashion, and, barring that, admit wrongdoing and accept proper consequences, they ended up proving exactly what they were so eager to deny. Their entire response was a catastrophic miscalculation of the power balance between Spain’s soccer governing body and the players—a balance that has been shifting in athletic organizations all over the world in recent years.

Just look at the U.S. Women’s National Team, which prevailed last year in a protracted battle for equal pay that reached a fever pitch after the team won the 2019 World Cup. The team made its push for better pay a visible part of its World Cup celebrations, when it was at the height of its fame and enjoying outpourings of adulation from fans across the country. The ensuing surge of public support for the players’ campaign drove home that soccer fans come to games not because they’re fans of the U.S. Soccer Federation, which pays the players. They come to see Alex Morgan and Megan Rapinoe and Crystal Dunn and Rose Lavelle. When the U.S. Women’s National Team players were forced to play in worse conditions for less pay—and made it known to their admirers—it became untenable for U.S. Soccer to stand by the two-tiered system that placed greater value on the men’s team.

Likewise, the Spanish women’s team correctly assessed that the moment after its World Cup win was the right time to take a stand against an organization that had systematically undervalued and degraded its players for years. And in response, people all over the world have signaled their support. Soccer players from other countries who lost in the World Cup just a couple of weeks ago have been posting and speaking and wearing wristbands for Hermoso. Every member of Spain’s women’s coaching staff resigned in protest, except for the detested manager, Vilda. At a professional women’s soccer game in D.C. this week, attendees held signs and chanted Hermoso’s name. Multiple officials from the United Nations chimed in against Rubiales too. The guy never stood a chance.

I'm not sure that it is as clear a parallel to the US women's efforts. In the former, it was very much like a labor negotiation, but in the case of Spain, it was more like a a penny dropping.A problem with a lot of these accounts is that it is framed as a very tidy 3 act drama where the villain does something in the first act, the people rise up in the second and it is happily ever after for the 3rd. A lot of these articles fail discuss the history of these problems, and I had to search a bit to find this one

The scandal has come after years of increasing disquiet in Spain over abuse of women, especially after the notorious 2016 “Wolf Pack” gang-rape of a teenager which prompted the socialist-led government to reform sexual consent laws.

In the case of football, the women’s team’s efforts to combat sexism and achieve parity with their male peers date back nearly a decade. That includes two dressing room rebellions that ended the international careers of several players.

Boquete led a mutiny seeking the resignation of coach Ignacio Quereda after a woeful performance at the 2015 World Cup, the only one his teams reached in nearly three decades.

The phrase se acabó means 'It's finished', and is supposed to relate not only to Rubiales, who, after holding out a lot longer than was wise, stepped down, but also to the issue of harassment of women in society. But it seems to me that the phrase will not age well and doesn't seem reusable.

This Guardian article, in addition to providing some depth to Rubiales, has this interesting tidbit

Rubiales told Morgan about the pressure on his family but his statement reveals the real reason: the risk to Spain’s World Cup bid. The fighter couldn’t keep fighting; the damage, bad enough already, would be even greater, and not just in Spain. Aware that he was never going to be able to go back, even he was forced to accept that in the end, to let go, losing a total salary of almost €900,000. “Insisting on staying won’t contribute anything positive,” he conceded. “My departure will contribute to Europe and Africa remaining united for the 2030 World Cup.” And so the circle closes.

I lived in Spain about a decade after Franco died, and the country was undergoing an efflorescence, where all of the creative energies that had been tamped down were bubbling up to the surface. But the country and the culture seemed hyper masculine and incredibly gendered. Perhaps Spain has changed from the time I was there, but I don't think that the deep implulse of machismo could be easily removed. That's why, though a lot of the reporting about Rubiales speech where he refused to resign seemed to have a horrified fascination (this link explains why it was horrific), for me, it was unsurprising.

Anyway, it's been on my mind and I'm wondering if any folks have thoughts about it.

 

Comments

[JanieM]

Babysitting, and generally short on time (sorry I have to keep saying this). So this will be brief in relation to the length/care the topic deserves.

In my very scanty experience of a (Spanish-)related culture: yes to the gendered-ness. It is probably a big reason why a number of cultures I have brushed past or seen in movies etc. have negative appeal for me.

I don't mind being called "sir" now and then because the way I dress leads people to hasty and mistaken assumptions. But I do mind being put on the second-class level of an already second-class set of citizens (women) because I won't conform to the gender requirements of people who are incapable of nuance or generosity of spirit. The genderedness of our own culture is bad enough.

Secondly, and again I have to apologize for not having time to give this thought train the care it deserves: I have been thinking about a post, one bit of which would be to ask what government intrusions on their private lives men would accept, that would be remotely equivalent to the collective intrusion on individual private lives that current red state abortion laws represent.

What, you say, your body and your intimacies are no one else's business?

And on and on, hopefully, another day.

[wj]

The phrase se acabó means 'It's finished', and is supposed to relate not only to Rubiales, who, after holding out a lot longer than was wise, stepped down, but also to the issue of harassment of women in society. But it seems to me that the phrase will not age well and doesn't seem reusable.

Agreed that the phrase will not age well. Because, without question, it is not finished. Not in Spain. Not in most, if not all, of the world.

That said, I think it's enormously likely that it will get reused. Probably over and over. Because those using it are, not to put too fine a point on it, clueless.

[nous]

My impression of the Hermoso responses and how they shifted is that the kiss was an act of impulse on Rubiales part - something he thought he could get away with - and that Hermoso just wanted that part of the story to go away so that people would go back to focusing on the team's win, rather than on what the pendejo had done. That lasted right up until Rubiales saw her giving him cover and then lied and put words into her mouth, which was a step too far for Hermoso and also put the spotlight right back on the pendejo again.

I, like JanieM, have many thoughts about this, but they are knotted up with a lot of other issues and other recent statements, and I don't have time or space to pick at the tangles and trace the connections right now. The zoomed-out, impressionistic view of it, though, is that I think our Red Sanders/Vince Lombardi "winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" attitude is poisoning society, and that the way that this attitude plays into women's sports renders women as inferior beings.

I'm having a real hard time with most all sports at the moment.

[Girl from the North Country]

I'm a bit time-poor at the moment too, so haven't managed to read all of lj's post or links, but I (along with many women I know) followed the story closely despite not being football fans.

None of us saw it as "just a kiss", since his two splayed hands, grasping the sides and back of her head made it clear that she could not have avoided it if she wanted to. And the fact that it came on the heels of a lot of publicity about many of the national side refusing to play while the coach (Vilda? no time to check) was still in his job, despite very widespread complaints about his coercive and demeaning behaviour, only underlined the systemic culture problems in Spanish women's football (let alone the rest of Spain). And as for Rubiales's farcical reiterations of needing to continue to behave with "dignity", you only have to look at the video of the crowd straight after Spain's win, where Rubiales (standing next to the Queen of Spain and her daughter) ostentatiously grabs his crotch in celebration, to see what his "dignity" looks like. Faugh. What a bunch of scumbags.

The much admired manager of the English team, the Lionesses, dedicated her award of best manager to the Spanish team, with total support from her team and probably of most of the women (and a lot of men) in this country.

[Girl from the North Country]

Further to which, this from Robert Crampton in today's Times:

What buried Rubiales for me from the off wasn’t just the kiss, it was the crotch grab that preceded it. Which is to say that if he was on the side of the angels then, given a sufficiently humble grovel, he could have explained the kiss as an excess of euphoria. Not classy, not trivial, but perhaps, in those circumstances, forgivable by Hermoso. Given that creepy, vulgar, frankly downright weird self-fondle, however, it seems obvious what kind of chap he is. Decent men just don’t do that kind of thing. Not in public at any rate. In your jimjams watching the football, maybe. But not if you’re actually on the telly.

I wonder whether this aspect (being creeped out by the crotch grab) is experienced as much in other countries as it probably is in a lot of the UK? Comments from the US, Germany etc would be welcome!

[JanieM]

I didn't even know about the crotch grab, ffs. I drafted this for another purpose after reading GftNC's 1:17, but it will serve just as well for an answer to the question in her 3:04:

Of course, I’m an old fogey, but no one would have dreamed of grabbing their crotch in public (or anywhere else except their own bedroom, so to speak) when I was younger. And even if it’s a thing now, it’s one thing when Kanye West does it, it’s another in a situation like this. Seriously?!?!? (But again, old fogey here.)

*****

Also, if this is so innocent, would Rubiales have kissed someone on the men's team if they had won? Women as property for men like him to treat as they wish. That's one of the main things it comes down to.

[wj]

Also, if this is so innocent, would Rubiales have kissed someone on the men's team if they had won?

Honestly ignorant. What is the cultural (and legal) situation for gays in Spain?

[JanieM]

wj: I have no idea. And so what? If it was an "innocent" kiss, it could have been given to anyone.

But also, from Wikipedia:

Same-sex marriage has been legal in Spain since July 3, 2005. In 2004, the nation's newly elected government, led by Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez ..

Ten years before Obergefell.

[Girl from the North Country]

On the crotch grab, and Kanye West etc, I didn't like it when e.g. Michael Jackson did it in the course of some of his dances, but I absolutely loathed it when Jimmy Connors did it when he won a great point. Euuuurgh. It's such a perfect visual representation of what we now call toxic masculinity.

[nous]

Spain's LGBTQ+ community is going through some turbulent times, much like those in the US.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/lgbtq-rights-are-forefront-spains-election-rcna94712

Nationalism is fairly thoroughly bound up in patriarchy, and thus in strict cultural binaries.

[JanieM]

Also, since we are talking about this again (with a broad definition of "this"), I want to pluck a passage from one of McKinney's comments in a recent return to the abortion topic that I had no time to take part in. McK:

Actually, I do understand your position. Bodily autonomy is a right the law should respect. The "but"--there always is a "but"--the friction lies in the fact that we are talking about two bodies, not one. And, the be more precise, I am focused on a human life once conceived, not birth control or morning after or what have you (all of which I actively support).

The assertion that we are talking about two bodies is not an answer, it is simplly an obscuring of the question. My body is the home base for everything about me, including my decisions about what to do with it. The entity inside me that will become a human being if I carry it to term may be a "body," but calling it that still doesn't answer the question of when, between fertilized egg and birth, its rights should outweigh mine, or when in that process anyone else besides me and my doctor (or anyone else I invite) should have a say in what happens to it.

Anna Quindlen once (after one of the SCOTUS decisions) wrote a moving opinion piece about the uniqueness of the situation of one human being carrying the potential for another inside her body. Bound up in this unique situation is the question of who has what rights ("who" including "the community" or "the collective") in relation to the continuation of the species. This in turn is the source of my not-intended-to-be-snarky comment about what invasions of their privacy by the collective men would/should be willing to accept if women have to accept such invasions because they carry babies. (And risk their lives doing so, which is not an aspect of men's role in the whole process, let's keep in mind.)

[nous]

The most nuanced arguments I have seen with regard to bodily autonomy and the "gift of life" are those papers (by Patricia Beattie Jun and Susan S. Mattingly, to point to two that can act as a start) that look at the moral issue through the lens of organ transplantation and ask what obligations for sharing the "gift of life" should fall upon the relatives of a person in need of a kidney transplant. Can society (and the law) require that a father give up a kidney for the sake of a child who would otherwise die, even if that father was unwilling to undergo the procedure and take the associated risks?

How many of those who would outlaw abortion would also require qualifying donor relatives to offer up organs for their family members in need of a transplant?

(And, having brought this up, that probably puts paid to any productive discussion of the sports angle with which this started.)

[Snarki, child of Loki]

If women aren't allowed to have some unwanted cells removed from inside their body, then men aren't allowed to have cancerous tumors removed.

Seems fair.

[JanieM]

nous: (And, having brought this up, that probably puts paid to any productive discussion of the sports angle with which this started.)

Yes, and I should apologize to lj for a threadjack of sorts. I pay almost no attention to sports anymore, and anyhow the Spanish embroilment seems to me to be just one aspect of a bigger topic. I should have waited and put the abortion subject in its own thread, but the question of what use men (and the community at large) make, and should be allowed to make, of women's bodies and lives seems common to both.

Feel free to revert to sports....

[liberal japonicus]

What is the cultural (and legal) situation for gays in Spain?

I can't speak to this, but a more general observation, istm that the clearer the lines are drawn, the easier it is to grant smaller measures of autonomy. I'm sure everyone has been overwhelmed with memes observing that Mrs Doubtfire could have a man in drag reading to kids, or any of hundreds of cultural acts that are now being held up as an anathema, and when you have a situation where a society was essentially frozen in aspic, like Spain under Franco, the release was pretty profound, but that release was probably going to provoke a reaction

https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-went-woke-lgbtq-equality-gender-women-rights/

[liberal japonicus]

And no worries about moving to another topic. Like nous, I'm a bit over sports and only followed the women's world cup because my wife and daughters were watching the games with Japan.

And following up on nous' comment about nationalism, folks might not be aware of the roasting the US women's team got after getting eliminated and folks raised this commercial

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfTKdHXWdho

[nous]

What little I pay attention to sports these days has mostly been spent watching either enduro or downhill mountain bike racing, especially the women's races. The women's competition has been growing a lot both in size and in capability, and the women have been organizing events at which they invite other women that they admire to come and work on riding difficult courses (like Hardline in Wales - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urDl8sSMU9s ). The communal, but competitive vibe, and the encouragement they give each other (and receive from the men who are helping with the events) stands in stark contrast to the narcissism of big money elite men's sports.

Which is why the language of the recent UCI rules on transgender athletes in international competitions really jumped out at me when it was handed down in July.

https://www.uci.org/pressrelease/the-uci-adapts-its-rules-on-the-participation-of-transgender-athletes-in/6FnXDIzvzxtWFOvbOEnKbC

Taking these findings into account, the UCI Management Committee considered the interests of transgender athletes in being able to take part in sporting competitions against those of athletes in the female category, which is considered a protected class. In this context, the UCI Management Committee concluded, considering the remaining scientific uncertainties, that it was necessary to take this measure to protect the female class and ensure equal opportunities. [bold emphasis mine]

I'm not going to try to minimize how difficult it is to decide how to rule fairly in these cases, but I will say that the language of being a "protected class" also has the unfortunate effect of rendering the women's competition something less than what is labeled the "Men's" competition, but is, in principle, the "open" competition. Trans-women would be allowed to compete in the "Men's" competition, but not in the "Women's."

For all intents and purposes, women as a protected class treats women as a type of disabled athlete, and this ruling left me feeling sad not just for the Trans athletes ( again treated as a type of cheater), but especially for the women who have been classified as a lesser form of competition in this ruling.

I wonder, again, what sports mite look like with more emphasis on participation and the celebration of improved capabilities, and less on ego and supremacy. I can see glimpses of another way in that Red Bull video and in a show like Max's The Climb (or even GBBO, to highlight a different sort of competition), and I think we would be better as a society if we started to shift our emphasis in that direction.

[JanieM]

From nous's UCI link: However, it has a duty to guarantee, above all, equal opportunities for all competitors in cycling competitions.

From nous: I wonder, again, what sports mite look like with more emphasis on participation and the celebration of improved capabilities, and less on ego and supremacy.

This would include less emphasis on winning. What the UCI pretends it can guarantee is equal opportunity to win, even though that's a phantasm.

[Pro Bono]

A distinction can be made between competitions which are primarily for spectator entertainment, and those which are primarily for the enjoyment of the contestants.

In the latter, there should always be an open category, so that anyone can compete. There may be restricted categories if there's demand for them. There is no obligation to have a category which gives a particular class of contestant a good chance of winning.

I've competed in many long-distance running events. I used to be quite good, but there was never a chance that I could win one. I didn't mind that, my aim was to achieve a time I was pleased with.

[wj]

A distinction can be made between competitions which are primarily for spectator entertainment, and those which are primarily for the enjoyment of the contestants.

I would add a third category: competitions which are primarily a matter of national/local prestige. That includes pretty much anything where there is a "national team", including the Olympics. Who can compete in these is pretty much a matter of what the particular political entity can get away with to maximize its potential for "winning."

[GftNC]

I have to admit that when I first saw nous’s comment that “For all intents and purposes, women as a protected class treats women as a type of disabled athlete”, I laughed. And since I was on my phone, and in bed, I left it there. But it occurs to me that perhaps the relevant kind of reasoning is not fully understood in the States, so here are a few links.

The 9 protected characteristics (i.e. protected from unlawful discrimination), under the Equality Act are: age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief (including the belief that sex is immutable), sex, and sexual orientation.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/equality-act#:~:text=Protected%20characteristics,-Find%20out%20more&text=These%20are%20age%2C%20disability%2C%20gender,%2C%20sex%2C%20and%20sexual%20orientation.

There is a separate section on the exemptions for single-sex spaces, which I think nobody understands as implying that their occupants are lesser, or disabled.

On sex advantage in sports, there have been various studies, but the one which springs readily to hand (sic) is this German one on hand strength in males, females, and elite female athletes, regardless I think of hand size, and I believe if you look you will find similar results on other metrics:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-006-0351-1

The present findings show that the differences in hand-grip strength of men and women are larger than previously reported. An appreciable difference still remains when using lean body mass as reference. The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men.

And really, as far as any comment on the patriarchy is concerned, I can only say that the threatening and violent behaviour of the many trans-activist cis men or trans women at the various protests or online, leaves very many (maybe even, increasingly, most) women in no doubt as to which group constitutes the patriarchy, and which their main target.

[nous]

GftNC - the UCI ruling has nothing to do with legal protection. The "class" they are referring to there is a competitive class, i.e. Men's Elite Speedybike Zooming. They aren't protecting anyone's legal rights, it is entirely about eligibility for entering a particular competition. The organization already qualifies competitors according to ability - that's where the "elite" thing comes in. Entrants must have demonstrated their ability to compete at a high level.

What I am noting is that "Men's Elite" and "Women's Elite" are not simply two categories of "elite" competitors split by gender. "Elite Men's" is a competition open to any rider with qualifying results. If, in principle, a trans-woman who transitioned after puberty can enter a "men's" competition at the appropriate level for her competitive results, then so too could a cis-woman. The "men's" qualifier has no actual import whatsoever. It's an "open" competition. This means that the men's champion is the champion, while the women's champion is only the champion of those competitors protected from having to compete against other athletes who have physiological advantages.

Hence my disability comment.

And I think that this situation does a disservice to the Elite Women, who are actually elite athletes, and not just elite for women.

If you wish to riff on that with other contexts for "protection," that's your right, but it is not an accurate representation of what I am arguing.

[JanieM]

But it occurs to me that perhaps the relevant kind of reasoning is not fully understood in the States, so here are a few links.

Oh please.

US federal law protects individuals from discrimination or harassment based on the following nine protected classes: sex (including sexual orientation and gender identity[3]), race/color, age, disability, national origin, religion/creed, or genetic information (added in 2008).[clarification needed] Many state laws also give certain protected groups special protection against harassment and discrimination, as do many employer policies. Although it is not required by federal law, state law and employer policies may also protect employees from harassment or discrimination based on marital status.[1] The following characteristics are "protected" by United States federal anti-discrimination law:

(From Wikipedia)

The same concept and terminology are fundamental to US anti-discrimination law. If nous doesn't “fully understand” what a protected class is I'll eat my hat.

Beyond that I'll let him speak for himself. And maybe for me as well, because this is the point at which I had better leave it to someone else.

[JanieM]

Huh, the site has been behaving badly, at least on my computer, and it took me so long to post a comment that nous DID speak for himself. Eloquently and to the point, as usual.

[wj]

genetic information (added in 2008).[clarification needed]

"clarification needed" indeed! And I wonder what the proximate cause was, that resulted in this being added.

[Girl from the North Country]

If nous doesn't “fully understand” what a protected class is I'll eat my hat.

Perhaps it was not clear enough in what I linked (I see it was not), but the actual groups of people having "protected characteristics" in the Equality Act are often referred to as "protected classes", so I assumed it was the word "protected" in "protected class" which nous was taking as an implication that female athletes could in some way be perceived as disabled. It seemed (and seems) to me that his words, without his subsequent gloss @12.47) could easily bear that interpretation.

Good grief, as if this subject was not tortured enough already!

[Nigel]

Did Rubiales not also pay her on the bottom as she walked away from him ?

Spain appears to be coming round to the idea that this us also unacceptable:
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/13/outrage-in-spain-after-man-touches-journalists-bottom-during-broadcast

[Nigel]

Did Rubiales not also pay her on the bottom as she walked away from him ?

Spain appears to be coming round to the idea that this us also unacceptable:
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/13/outrage-in-spain-after-man-touches-journalists-bottom-during-broadcast

[nous]

The University of California eats an hour of unpaid labor every two years to quiz me on my understanding of protected classes in civil rights code, so...

[Girl from the North Country]

The University of California eats an hour of unpaid labor every two years to quiz me on my understanding of protected classes in civil rights code, so...

Cor blimey, are we being two countries divided by a common language? I fully believe this (quoted here) about you, and could have predicted at least the substance of it.

But given that you originally said:

the language of being a "protected class" also has the unfortunate effect of rendering the women's competition something less than what is labeled the "Men's" competition, but is, in principle, the "open" competition.

and

For all intents and purposes, women as a protected class treats women as a type of disabled athlete

I responded as I did without knowing either that in US legislation the wording in the equality legislation is “US federal law protects individuals from discrimination or harassment based on the following nine protected classes", or that you actually meant, as you explained later,

The "class" they are referring to there is a competitive class, i.e. Men's Elite Speedybike Zooming. They aren't protecting anyone's legal rights, it is entirely about eligibility for entering a particular competition.

So I was merely wondering whether you had written as you had because there might be a difference in the meaning of the actual expression "protected class" between the US and UK.

But I am beginning to think that we may be able to get no further on this, so like Janie (although no doubt for different reasons) , perhaps it is time for me to (as they used to say in Shooting Stars) “let it lie”.

[Donald]

Here are Olympic weightlifting records

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting

Now on the one hand even women in the smallest weight category are stronger than most men, so yeah, they are elite. Notice the woman in the 49 kg category is slightly stronger pound for pound than the man in the 109 kg group. Square cube law strikes again.

But also notice that men in similar weight classes are considerably stronger.

“ This means that the men's champion is the champion, while the women's champion is only the champion of those competitors protected from having to compete against other athletes who have physiological advantages.”

Well, yeah. That was the whole point in having women’s sports. Afaik women have an advantage in long distance swimming. Maybe there are others.

Like others here I don’t really care about sports and only run or do strength training for fun, health and to compete with myself. ( That way standards are low.) But a lot of people do like sports and competition. Some of these people are women who probably like having women’s basketball teams and women ‘s track and field events and so on.

[nous]

It's a matter of different rhetorical situations. The Union Cycliste Internationale are not referring to women as a class in their standards, they are referring specifically to their own competitive classes and noting how for the purposes of their sanctioned competitions the "women's" classes (of whatever grade, expert, junior, etc.) are protected - as in they limit who is allowed to compete.

Different standard than what is meant in civil rights when they use the term.

Another case of "divided by a common language" - what rhetoricians would call separate discourse communities, and the reason why I linked to the UCI press release to specify the context.

[Donald]

“ Notice the woman in the 49 kg category is slightly stronger pound for pound than the man in the 109 kg group”

I didn’t bother looking at the unlimited weight category because those people seem to put on as much muscle and accompanying fat as possible, presumably in an attempt to maximize absolute strength. Everyone else is trying to maximize strength in their weight class, which nicely illustrates the idea that smaller animals tend to be stronger pound for pound when you look at the numbers. ( Number of competitors in a given category could complicate things, of course. If there are too few you could have artificially low numbers.)

[JanieM]

Sally Jenkins on Rubiales. WaPo links work for me without a login when I open them in my stripped down Firefox (no scripts, no ads).

Worthy of Alexandra Petri, although Sally Jenkins is an institution in her own right as a sportswriter.

[liberal japonicus]

I really like this video, which strangely (because it is about a yo-yo competition) sums up my current feelings about sport

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4UbOxXegqA

"None of this is to say that rules are inherently good or bad, that the system is broken, or that it needs to be changed. But, sometimes, we forget that rules are merely a tool: a reflection of cool shit, and not the other way around. So, when someone does something that is undeniably essential, but the rules fail to see that, we are reminded that cool shit fundamentally comes from the soul. We are reminded that when it comes to doing cool shit, the rules don’t matter."

[liberal japonicus]

And that reminded me of this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_aWQzWrwaI

which is about Li Dayin, a Chinese weightlifter who was the best in the 81 kg category, which was eliminated, and his predicted troubles trying to move up to 89 kg. However, double checking, it seems like the video was wrongly pessimistic as he recently took the world records for set new world records in the snatch and total, as well as a 10kg personal record in the clean and jerk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_aWQzWrwaI

[Pro Bono]

The present findings show that the differences in hand-grip strength of men and women are larger than previously reported.

I'm staying in an apartment with two women. I wouldn't have noticed it was a problem, but neither of them can open the front door.

[wj]

when it comes to doing cool shit, the rules don’t matter.

I would say rather, when there is cool shit which essential but outside the rules, it's time to change the rules. Because rules do matter -- it's about maintaining a level playing field

[liberal japonicus]

Well, if you watch the video, part 5 is titled the 'Rules Matter' and comes right before part 6 conclusion, so he doesn't disagree with you, but he explains why Hajime Miura could place 7th despite having what some feel is the greatest yo-yo performance of all time.

As a side note, if anyone does look at the video and knows what the software they use to make the video, I'd love to know.

[hairshirthedonist]

I apologize if this is off topic. I'm assuming the thread has moved enough that it's de facto open.

I saw this headline and thought threats were coming from "the left" (as "it's" commonly referred to, whatever "it" is the mind of the person referring to "it"):

Threats mount against prosecutors and FBI agents working on Hunter Biden probe

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/prosecutors-fbi-agents-hunter-biden-investigation-threatened-rcna104932

Ah, silly me! From the article:

Prosecutors and FBI agents involved in the Hunter Biden investigation have been the targets of threats and harassment by people who think they haven’t been tough enough on the president’s son, according to government officials and congressional testimony obtained exclusively by NBC News.

It’s part of a dramatic uptick in threats against FBI agents that has coincided with attacks on the FBI and the Justice Department by congressional Republicans and former President Donald Trump, who have accused both agencies of participating in a conspiracy to subvert justice amid two federal indictments of Trump.

The threats have prompted the FBI to create a stand-alone unit to investigate and mitigate them, according to a previously unreleased transcript of congressional testimony.

Now I owe the left an apology.

[hairshirthedonist]

I think a comment of mine was eaten. It was off topic, so feel free to leave it in comment jail if you like.

Fixed -- wj

[wj]

Now I owe the left an apology.

I confess, my immediate response to the headline was
"Damn, have the Democrats gone down the crazy rabbit hole, too???"
Fortunately, the article clarified the matter.

[JanieM]

How does one apologize to a phantasm?

[hairshirthedonist]

I'm not sure I can say in every detail, but I'm reasonably certain you'd have to use scare quotes.

[JanieM]

LOL.

[nous]

👍

[Michael Cain]

The present findings show that the differences in hand-grip strength of men and women are larger than previously reported.

Tangentially, I was a freshman in college when I took my first fencing class. One of the requirements to pass the class, not advertised in advance, was to be a test subject for two phys ed graduate student projects.

In one of the projects I was assigned to, the grad student was measuring the difference in strength and agility between scholarship athletes and "regular" students. Somehow, he had settled on grip strength and a back-and-forth shuffle as his tests. The shuffle needs some explanation. Two lines, ten feet apart, the subject starts in the middle and when the signal is given moves right without crossing their feet and taps their right foot outside the line, then goes left and taps their left foot outside that line. Repeat as many times as you can in some fixed interval counting each toe tap outside the lines.

As I recall, I did 13 on the shuffle. The graduate student said I must have cheated, no one could do 13. He made me repeat it and I came within a fraction of a second of 14. My grip strength relative to my body weight was off his scale.

"Tell me," I asked him, "are all of your regular student subjects from the fencing class?"

"Yes."

"You are so screwed. Those subjects have just finished a semester of voluntary training for your tests. The scholarship athletes don't have a chance."

[Girl from the North Country]

Good story, Michael. And a fine example of (to quote Donald Rumsfeld for the first time in my life) unknown unknowns.

[Girl from the North Country]

Good story, Michael. And a fine example of (to quote Donald Rumsfeld for the first time in my life) unknown unknowns.

[wj]

Definitely an example of the importance of being very very careful about picking the control group for any experiment involving human beings.

[nous]

Since I mentioned mountain bike videos earlier, I had to share the latest reel from Gee Atherton - not recommended for anyone with a fear of heights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12N6UmhCqtE

Fourth video in the Ridgeline series. The third installment, "The Knife Edge," was quite sobering, as it includes footage of Gee's project-ending crash during the filming (concussion, fractured eye socket, broken femur, broken ribs, assorted other fractures) as an antidote to any false extreme sport bravado.

[CharlesWT]

That type of bike riding started, I think, in California in the '70s. People were lugging single-speed coaster brake bikes to the top of slopes to ride them down. And often having to rebuild the coaster brake after each run. I still have the handbuilt Tom Ritchey mountain bike I bought in 1983.

[ral]

GftNC, you will appreciate Three Rumsfeld Songs.

"As we know, there are known knowns..."

[nous]

CharlesWT - have you submitted your bike info at The Ritchey Project?

http://ritchey.vintagebicycledatabase.com/

I still love steel bikes with brazed frames, but I can't imagine riding one on a trail on a regular basis. Modern bikes, even a hardtail like mine, are a lot more forgiving and capable. I can remember riding Slickrock on my old Diamondback (130mm of travel - all in my arms and legs) back in '92 and it was a way slower, more bruising, and sketchy experience.

I'm slowly sidling up on the idea of getting a full suspension bike, once I am convinced that I'm going to keep up my trail riding even with my arthritic hips. Don't want to be a roadie. I don't trust drivers enough to want to put myself in that sort of danger. I'd rather headplant in a rock garden.

That Ritchey would probably make a beast of a bikepacking rig.

---

I see that Rubiales has appeared in court and that the judge has okayed a restraining order to keep him at a distance from Hermoso. Pendejo is still maintaining that the kiss was consensual and that he's not guilty.

[wj]

I see that Rubiales has appeared in court and that the judge has okayed a restraining order to keep him at a distance from Hermoso. Pendejo is still maintaining that the kiss was consensual and that he's not guilty.

Why am I guessing that Pendejo's view is something like: unless she explicitly said "No!", then she consented. (And, since it was sudden, she didn't have a chance to do so. Them's the breaks.)

Definitely not the way our culture views these things. But I don't know enough about Spain to speak to things there.

[JanieM]

Definitely not the way our culture views these things. A huge subset of "our" culture still views these things just like Pendejo.

Also, misogyny issues aside, I know people like him -- whenever there is an interpersonal problem, it is always, always, always located in THE OTHER PERSON, and a great deal of trouble must be taken to elucidate how that is the case. No problem could *possibly* be located or stem in part from inside someone like Rubiales, who is a bright shiny paragon of perfection of intention and action.

With people like that, some of us suspect that there is something rotten behind the bright shiny surface, but we are of course malevolently mistaken, and merely victimizing the paragon in our misguidedness and ill intent. And probably envy, as well. Who would not want to be so perfect!

[JanieM]

(italics in my 2:05 are from wj's 1:06.

[wj]

JanieM: "Definitely not the way our culture views these things. A huge subset of "our" culture still views these things just like Pendejo."

A huge subset. But, over the course of my lifetime, a much shrunken subset as well. Not to say that there isn't a lot more work to do, because there is. But I think it's a mistake, counterproductive even, to lose sight of how much progress has been made. Otherwise it becomes too easy to despair and give up trying.

[nous]

A huge subset. But, over the course of my lifetime, a much shrunken subset as well. Not to say that there isn't a lot more work to do, because there is. But I think it's a mistake, counterproductive even, to lose sight of how much progress has been made.

Probably also true of Spain, given the current right wing backlash and turbulence there.

And I think the focus on progress needs to be nuanced. Much has been made, long term, but much is being lost in recent action, and we need to fight against the voices who say that we have progressed too far.

The answer must still be "far, but not far enough, and not secure enough to become complacent."

[wj]

"Far. Far enough to be inspired to keep going."

[CharlesWT]

CharlesWT - have you submitted your bike info at The Ritchey Project?

nous, thanks for the link. I'll have to find the documentation that came with the bike. I had it in hand about a year ago when I tidying things up a bit.

[Girl from the North Country]

The Lauren Boebert incident and subsequent proof contradicting her denials made me think of one of my favourite quotations, which the historian Thomas Macaulay called "the finest sentence ever written".

It is found in Julius Caesar’s answer to Cicero. Cicero wrote to express thanks for the compassion the conqueror displayed toward political adversaries who fell into his power at the surrender of Corfinium. The sentence Macaulay so admired reads:

“I triumph and rejoice that my action should have obtained your approval; nor am I disturbed when I hear it said that those whom I have sent off alive and free will again bear arms against me; for there is nothing which I so much covet as that I should be like myself, and they like themselves.”

I should say that my longtime admiration for this was no doubt subconsciously influenced by the hope or expectation that disgraceful people being "like themselves" would eventually lead to condemnation and real disgrace, but I realise, contemplating it now for the first time in years, that if there is anything the Trump phenomenon has shown (so far at any rate) it is that that does not sufficiently happen. So I will have to content myself with what was undoubtedly the real point: that the satisfaction gained should be pure, and not dependent on outcome.

[wj]

Somehow, I cannot get enthused at the idea of disgraceful people being "like themselves". They seem to do that with especial enthusiasm of late, and show no visible sign of changing. Which causes me to be far more in favor of social inhibitions that I once was.

[Girl from the North Country]

On an entirely different subject, further to earlier hopes that sports, or competitions, could be more supportive and warm (like GBBO) rather than cut-throat, I should mention that tonight is the first night of Strictly, our version of Dancing with the Stars. Often referred to as Bake-Off with sequins, it is usually a particularly joyous, many-week-long experience. Notable former champions are Bill Bailey (initially assumed to be the joke candidate), and profoundly deaf actress Rose Ayling-Ellis, whose extraordinary journey (she danced entirely by feeling her partner's movements etc) resulted in not only dances of extreme beauty (see on Youtube where they stop the music in the midst of the dance to show what her world is like), but also an enormous subsequent increase in enrolment for BSL (British Sign Language) courses. One of the "stars" this time is Krishnan Guru-Murthy, one of my favourite (and the lead) journalist and newsreader on C4 News. Weeks of pleasure ahead for many of us...

[Girl from the North Country]

Aaand one more for the "them being like themselves" ledger: Texas Rs find Paxton not guilty. I look at Boebert, George Santos and Paxton and I ask myself whether there is any conceivable behaviour which these people find unacceptable in their representatives.

[nous]

I ask myself whether there is any conceivable behaviour which these people find unacceptable in their representatives.

Being on, helping, or in any way speaking good of the other side. Admitting any wrong. Apologizing. Being needlessly kind or altruistic. Opposing the NRA.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

I'm really disgusted with this season of Strictly Come Grifting, and hope all of the contestants get banned for life.

[GftNC]

That's true. Silly me.

Meanwhile, for anybody who wants a bit of relief, this is the wonderful comedian and musician Bill Bailey, dancing on Strictly with Oti Mabuse to Rapper's Delight in 2020:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUKe-EKXUb0

And Rose Ayling Ellis and Giovanni Pernice's Couple's Choice in 2021 which moved the nation and the judges to tears:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QejOzrlovTQ

[Girl from the North Country]

That's true was for nous's 05.14!

[wj]

Sadly, nous (5:14) is an incomplete list. There are so many other kinds of behavior, characteristic of decent human beings everywhere, which are also anathema.

[Michael Cain]

It now appears the theater was letting Boebert and her date off easy: loud, vaping, recording the performance. I'm now reading reports that the security video also shows Boebert and her date groping each other.

[wj]

But, that sort of behavior is so traditional in theaters! At least among teenagers....

[Michael Cain]

Teenagers usually have the dignity to use seats in the back of the balcony. Not down in the expensive seating on the main floor.

[wj]

Why am I guessing that Boebert was utterly lacking in dignity** even as a teen?

** Among other things.

[Girl from the North Country]

Well, to come full circle to se acabo, I think Lauren Boebert's version of "dignity" probably has a lot in common with that of Rubiales: crass (the groping), entitled (do you know who I am?), and dishonest (the lie about vaping, among other aspects). Let's hope a similar downfall is imminent, but given Republican standards for R representatives one has to doubt it.

[wj]

Or perhaps "dignity" is strictly a "coastal elite" thing....
(In her mind. I know enough people across the middle of the country to know that they have definite views on the subject. Which don't encompass her behavior.)

[CharlesWT]

So, there's a problem with a public servant doing public service in a theater?

[nous]

Palate cleanser... since I shared that video of the women riding the Hard Line downhill mtb course, this just came out at Red Bull. It's the first video I've seen that gives a good sense of speed, movement and difficulty for what the rider is contending with. Continuous first-person view drone shot, top to bottom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctEksNz7tqg

Bonkers skill following a rider with bonkers skill.

[hairshirthedonist]

I watched that on full screen sitting close to a reasonably large monitor while wearing reading glasses. I was getting a mild version of the physical sensation that one might get on a simulator ride at a theme park.

Beyond skill, you have to be insanely fit to manage the forces involved over the time it takes to complete that course. Then there's the lack of risk aversion, though they've got enough experience with the danger increasing incrementally over their lifetimes that they don't see it they way I do.

[Girl from the North Country]

OMG. The guys who do that are a) crazy skillful, and b) crazy. Wow. The closest I've ever been to anything even vaguely like that was when I was 10 years old, in Davos (then a sleepy, old-fashioned ski resort), going down a world-championship bobsleigh run (never having been on a bobsleigh or toboggan before) which started from our hotel. I ended up crucified on a chain link fence having missed a sudden turn, but when you're 10 you think you're immortal, so after that I refused to learn to ski, and spent all day every day going down that run, then up again on the lift to the hotel, then down again. I still have an intense memory of the beauty and isolation of the mountains, the snow-laden fir trees, the snow-muffled silence, the icy in places almost-tunnels, the sheer exhilaration.

[nous]

Okay, mini rant coming on.

Today on PinkBike, one of the contributors posted a compilation thread of a bunch of women riders' freeride edits - crazy terrain, acrobatic riding, slamming music, and a few of the commenters came in to express frustration that Red Bull has not invited any women to compete at Rampage.

Cue the long line of semi-anonymous troll commenters saying that women aren't good enough, aren't a good ROI for the sponsors, and that not enough women support MTB as a sport to ever make them viable.

Typical sexist bullshit. The genre is well known. It's pretty much plug-and-play replacement arguments from Joanna Russ's How to Suppress Women's Writing for the extreme sport crowd, and a bunch of insecure people trying to make themselves feel bigger by making others feel small.

But this does go to the heart of what I was saying about what sports mighte look like with more emphasis on participation and the celebration of improved capabilities, and less on ego and supremacy.

Probably "sports" there is the wrong word and should be replaced by something like "athletics" for the same reason that we can speak of ballet dancers as athletes without treating ballet as if it was a sport. This analogy leads nicely to what feels like an insight from today.

A lot of extreme sports are less like sports and more like circuses. People show up for the spectacle of the acrobatics and the standings are a pretext for driving difficulty and effort. I watch for the same reason that I pay for seats at a Cirque du Soleil show.

Except that the performers at a Cirque show are professionals who are paid by Cirque. Athletes in extreme sports are either pros sponsored by a brand or privateers, and they are competing for prize money that only goes to the top few.

It's a gig economy built on danger.

I think it would be a lot more healthy for all if it were more like a professional figure skating tour - spectacular, but build to be sustained and to keep the athletes paid and less at risk of life-altering injury.

[nous]

As if on cue, an awesome interview with one of the top women freeriders [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeride_(mountain_biking)] saying what I've been trying to say, so I'll shut up and let her have the floor:

I want to clarify, Formation [women only freeride exhibition] was built in a way that the access from media there was there was very small and restricted. We wanted to tell the story but the number one goal is to have the riders they're a hundred percent comfortable to push themselves because that's what we're trying to do is to create this bigger pool of freeriders who haven't had the time and experience through their careers, for obvious reasons. So it was pretty contained. There's no public allowed.

Long story short, the hype and the, the momentum behind 2022 was so big and the people that were on site. Once we were there and the people from Red Bull also that were there supporting Formation got just so psyched on what they could see, and just the massive storytelling that was going on before their eyes. And so that's when, yeah, that momentum was like, "cool, okay, let's definitely talk about women in Rampage." So they, as in the people from Red Bull that were there, decided to sit a few of the riders down and talk about, okay, "what does that look like? How could we make that happen so that it works for the riders? That works for the event? What does it look like?"

So that's where we were like "Sick. Let's definitely talk about it. Let's definitely make a plan." And we wanted to keep Formation as what it is, to have the next wave of freeriders that could see us in Rampage and be like, "This is awesome. I want to do that." And then have that platform goal to go into Formation, get ready. Have that platform and rite of passage. So submitting yourself into a Rampage would be like, "okay, you've attended at least one Formation and that was a success." And so you may move on, you know?

All those conversations were happening. And so that's where it was a bit difficult for 2023 where, when they brought back that conversation back to us, it wasn't about women in Rampage. It was about evolving Formation into something like a competition. And that's where us, the riders, said, "We hear what you're saying. But also, for one, it's defeating the purpose of what Formation is actually creating for the sport. And for two, if Formation is the end of the road for women in freeride, that means we're not putting ourselves on that stage. We're not getting the mainstream public to see women doing that stuff. That reach and all those, you know, OG freeride women that I never got to see growing up. We need to fix that in order to grow the entire sport and make the future Rampages women's categories be absolutely mind-blowing. It needs to start with seeing it on that stage.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/interview-vaea-verbeeck-on-women-competing-at-red-bull-rampage.html

Is it really so hard to create a spectacle that provides the same level of challenge and creativity without turning it into a head-to-head competition? There seems so much potential in a growth narrative.

This dovetails nicely with the discussion of the narrowness of zero-sum thinking on the other thread. Game theory has a whole branch dedicated to cooperative frameworks. I think it's far past time to start dragging that into the public consciousness.