History Lessons

by JanieM

Taking off from lj’s thread, I confess to some bemusement at the worry people express these days over children’s screen time. It’s not like screen time is new; we watched TV all the time when I was a kid. I could sit here all day listing the sitcoms and cartoons and TV dramas we tuned into faithfully every week, or in some cases every day.

Walt Disney was the source of some of both: The Wonderful World of Color on Sunday evenings, and The Mickey Mouse Club every weekday afternoon. Disney offerings were so pervasive that I was pretty sure the world would end if Walt Disney ever died.

I was lucky enough to visit Disneyland in 1961, at the age of 11, and I was dazzled beyond measure. I went again in 1972, by which time the world had changed, or I had changed, or both. I was just out of college, with a world view turned upside down. In the soldiers’ graveyard in Frontierland I saw a gravestone for a brave lieutenant etched with the inscription, “He died fighting for the right.” 

"The right," of course, was not the political right (as we might read it carelessly today), but the “moral” right – i.e., the killing of Native Americans to further the cause of stealing their land. My view of Disney was changed forever.

Although it’s not all that much bigger than the fort in Frontierland, the picture below shows not a fake fort in an amusement park but a refurbished real fort (now a museum): Fort Western in Augusta, Maine, where I go now and then with a camera to explore the geometry of stockades, rooftops, and sometimes piles of snow.

Bigger version of the picture, at Flickr.

Open thread.

Comments

[wj]

I confess to some bemusement at the worry people express these days over children’s screen time. It’s not like screen time is new; we watched TV all the time when I was a kid.

And, although you may be too young to recall it, there was pretty much the same worry expressed back in the day that kids were watching so much TV, rather than running around outside playing. Some things seem to be recurring themes.

[Hartmut]

Before that it was wasting time with reading (although that tended to be targeted more at girls than boys.). According to my mother her mother was a regular target of that. Reading was considered idle.
Moral dangers due to content were seemingly secondary to that. I guess these kinds of books were a rarity then in the rural backwaters she grew up in.

[Michael Cain]

My housemate and I were finishing our masters degrees in the spring of 1978 and took the last two weeks of May off. We drove from Austin to San Jose and operated from his mom's house there. He talked two of his female friends from undergraduate days into going to LA with us to spend a full day at Disneyland.

I was absolutely enchanted by the place, on all sorts of levels. The queuing theory they applied to the waiting lines so that while they were long, you never stopped moving. The numerous but hard-to-notice staff constantly sweeping up cigarette butts and stray napkins. The mood-setting at the Haunted Mansion. Turning a tame roller coaster ride into something exciting by running it in the dark. Everything about Pirates of the Caribbean.

[nous]

Not all screen time is equal, and the reasons for heightened concerns today are not the same as those from the past.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2022/12/424481/too-much-screen-time-bad-kids-its-complicated

Old Skool concerns over screen time centered mostly on eye strain, attention span, and lack of physical activity (with an added dose of worry over how gosh darn rebellious those TV kids acted, and some handwringing over targeted advertising).

New Skool concerns over screen time have to do with social media and with the potentially harmful psychological effects of algorithms on young people.

Social media hazing is worse for kids than old skool hazing was because the injuring behavior gets saved and shared and goes viral, and then becomes memorialized in the algorithms. It's one thing to have a dozen kids think you are dumb, but when that number climbs into the thousands and more...

We know that being in the media limelight did a number on a lot of child stars. Well, thanks to TikTok and YouTube, every child can have a taste of that, especially when coupled with...

Algorithms serve kids a big dose of directed content that feeds into obsessions - dieting, makeup, workout, pranks, dating advice, etc. - the content is sketchy and largely unregulated, and it gets amplified and repackaged from dozens of influencers that are ordinary kids *just like you*. You can go down a rabbit hole and get a huge dose of toxic ideas and behaviors very quickly.

Old Skool screen time was set to someone else's schedule and content choices. The messages were more diffuse and more varied, and the young people delivering that content were a small group of stars, which actually made them less influential in a sense because they seemed a step removed from ordinary kids. It was more fake and more exceptional, so it wore a shallower groove in young psyches.

And all this without even getting into the effects of porn on the sort of sexual attitudes that kids get back channel. Hugh Hefner was not a good influence on young men in my day, but he was less corrosive than Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson.

A few things to think about before deciding that everything new is old.

[JanieM]

@Michael -- I am with you on all of it, even including my more recent visits to WDW, where three of my relatives work (or did until one retired recently). The sense of being charmed doesn't cut very hard into my cycnicism, but I still can't help but enjoy some aspects of the visits. I just come away thinking it's too bad that every town in America can't have a town park as nice as the grounds are kept at WDW.

@nous -- thank you, I figured something like that was coming, and I'm glad you provided it. My experience with children's content is currently limited to a handful of items carefully chosen by parents, and I know it's going to get harder as the grandkids get older. But it's still hard for me to let go of the feeling that "it's always something." The world has been about to blow up around me since I saw a Civil Defense pamphlet in our bathroom when I was about six years old, in which there were graphic descriptions of the effects of radiation after an atomic bomb was dropped, and plans for fallout shelters. (Yes, I could read well enough then.) Then there were drills at school...and so on.

On a lighter note: I just found out that some version of the Mickey Mouse Club is still airing. I haven't bothered to try to find out whether it has been going on in an unbroken string since the mid-fifties, but I wouldn't be surprised. I can still sing the song, though, if you want some evidence of the depth of the grooves that can be carved in little brains.

[JanieM]

To recast my response to Michael, I recognize and appreciate that Disney does some things very very well. And I've had some fun days at WDW. At the same time, part of my psyche is living in an alternate framework where it's hard to think of the place as anything other than a vast engine for moving $ from one set of pockets to another (much smaller) set of pockets. Of course, that's just one subset of our entire culture.....

[wj]

OMG!!!

And now we have
A new AI app lets users ‘text with Jesus.’

The app will simulate (impersonate) a variety of characters besides Jesus: the Holy Family, the apostles, the prophets, Ruth, Job and Abraham’s nephew, Lot. So far.

I don't have any info on the theology of the programmers. Which just might impact results. Ya think?

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"OMG!!!"

ISWYDT

Loki has already infiltrated their AI, and replaced the "Jesus" training with "Satan pretending to be Jesus".

Let's see if anyone notices.

[wj]

I'm amusing myself by imagining that they trained the AI for one of the apostles (Paul, for a preference) using the sayings of Buddha instead.

[JanieM]

I don't have any info on the theology of the programmers. Which just might impact results. Ya think?

This reminds me of how much it bemuses me (to use an extreme euphemism) that the bible is considered by some # of self-styled Christians to be "the inerrant word of God," and yet each one of them thinks that THEY have the one and only correct interpretation of that word. So ... programmer theology, especially if there are multiple programmers with multiple theologies, can't make the whole thing any goofier than it already is, IMHO.

[JanieM]

I'm amusing myself by imagining that they trained the AI for one of the apostles (Paul, for a preference) using the sayings of Buddha instead.

Laughed out loud at this. How subversive can you get!

[wj]

How subversive can you get!

Well Gurū Nānak (Sikhi, probably the youngest major teligion) or Zoroaster (Zoroasterism, one of the oldest religions) might blow even more minds.

[liberal japonicus]

I'm in the process of greatly reducing screen time, but it might change if the weather cools down, while my computer is in an air conditioned room, the AC is not really keeping up.

An anecdote about screentime, my first daughter was raised during the VHS era and when we went back to the states, we would get Sesame Street videos, which she memorized. When the second daughter came along, we got cable with the Disney channel, which she watched, graduating to the tweener dramas.

The big difference was that the first daughter effortlessly picked up reading in English (which I think is due to the emphasis on sound-symbol correspondences in Sesame Street) while the second Disney daughter probably is a more fluent speaker, but effortlessly picked up that attitude of Disney tweener dramas where the child is always supposed to be in conflict with the parent.

[Michael Cain]

At the same time, part of my psyche is living in an alternate framework where it's hard to think of the place as anything other than a vast engine for moving $ from one set of pockets to another (much smaller) set of pockets.

It was a different era. I mean, a poor graduate student could afford to spend a day at the park and ride all of the major rides.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Many years ago, a friend of mine who enjoyed mocking over-serious fundies, developed a "mathematical proof" that Mickey Mouse was the Beast of Revelations.

Something like A=3, B=7, ...add up the letters: 666. Silly, but so are all the other such Kabalistic "proofs".

And a Mouse, is in fact, a Beast, so there's that.

One (true!) amusing point: if you go to Disneyland or WDW and buy one of the mouse-hats, they'll stitch on it, but if you ask to have them stitch "666" they'll refuse. Try it and see.

And now, with no further ado (cue Mousekateers Theme)

Who's the leader of the Cult that rules both you and me?
M-I-C-K-E-Y B-E-A-S-T
Mickey beast (of Revelation!)
Mickey beast (of Revelation!)
Forever let us chant his number high
six six six!
(pause)
Now it's time to say goodbye
to all humanity...
M-I-C
see you in Hell
K-E-Y
why? because we've *got* you
B-E-A-S-T

good times, good times.

[liberal japonicus]

I'm always interested in how Asia is both different and the same as the West. One way it is the same is that love for Disney.

https://yourmileagemayvary.com/2023/04/27/the-amusement-park-in-china-thats-a-total-disney-ripoff/

[wj]

they'll stitch on it, but if you ask to have them stitch "666" they'll refuse.

On the other hand, you could just ask them to stitch "999" on it. Betcha it never occurs to them that you might turn it upside down.

[hairshirthedonist]

$900 a day for my family to walk through the gates of DW in June. Parking, food, drinks, and whatever else on top of that.

My 10-year-old built a lightsaber in Galaxy's Edge for something north of $200. I was holding it for him while he was on a ride. Kylo Ren came walking by and pointed at me, saying dryly, "A lightsaber. Good for you."

That's some pricy ridicule.

[wj]

Meanwhile, on the climate change front, we have this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/08/14/youths-win-montana-climate-trial/

a Montana state court decided Monday in favor of young people who alleged the state violated their right to a “clean and healthful environment” by promoting the use of fossil fuels.

It may be noteworthy that the state did not try to make the expected arguments about climate change science. Possibly because they could see that the science was too solid to contest. Instead, they tried to argue that the,matter should be addressed by the legislature rather than the courts. The judge wasn't buying it.

I'm beginning to think that Montana isn't nearly as red as its neighbors.

[Girl from the North Country]

Possibly because they could see that the science was too solid to contest.

Oh do they accept that now? Baby steps....

[nous]

I'm beginning to think that Montana isn't nearly as red as its neighbors.

Almost a given when your neighbors are Idaho, Wyoming, and the Dakotas. No way Tester gets elected to the Senate from any of those.

Montana does also seem to have a slightly more environmentalist streak than their surrounding neighbors, though. Wyoming has deep pockets of green money, but those are more private than public, and a lot of the rich nature lovers got their Jackson money in the oil industry. They are Thoreau-going bastards.

[JanieM]

A depressing example of what nous was talking about earlier in the thread.

And I apologize if I seemed to minimize the damage being done by "screens" these days. I do feel that it's always something, but that doesn't mean current threats and dangers aren't dire. And we have a big job on our hands ("we") if we want to even attempt to stay nimble enough to know what the worst current threats are, and how to address them. And obviously this goes far beyond just the internet.

[Michael Cain]

I'm beginning to think that Montana isn't nearly as red as its neighbors.

Montana has had at least one Democratic US Senator in office continuously from 1911.

Colorado College does a large annual opinion poll of the Interior West states, mostly on environmental issues. In ID, MO, UT and WY the state legislatures are all less concerned about conservation and environmental issues than their constituents. They'll pay a price for that eventually.

[wj]

They'll pay a price for that eventually.

Although, as we see in Wisconsin, with careful gerrymandering that can take a while.

[liberal japonicus]

Montana also had a strong labor presence, and was the first state to recognize Labor Day as a holiday. Colorado also had strong unions, but I think they totally broken by the time of the Ludlow Massacre.

I also suspect that it has to do with population distribution and history, while the major cities of Montana are smaller, there is more of them (Billings, Bozeman, Helena, Butte and Missoula) and they were established earlier, while Colorado only has the major metro area of Denver and Colorado Springs. Aurora is really a suburb of Denver and Fort Collins wasn't a city until 1969. istm history matters...

[wonkie]

I grew up without TV. The only time we had a TV in the house was for a couple of months when my grandma stayed with us--and we were limited to one show a day. Car Fifty-Four Where Are You. Later, my parents rented a TV so we could watch the coverage of the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago. That made a huge change in my life.

I still don't watch TV. I don't even know how to use it. I have always been a voracious reader, capable of disappearing into a book for hours.

THen along came the Internet and scrolling. I am certain that Facebook, INstagram, and Twitter have adversely affected my ability to concentrate.

[wj]

lj,
And Wyoming was the first state to give women the vote. History does matter, but it's not the only factor, or even the largest one.

[wj]

An off-the-wall thought for you.

A conviction under Georgia’s RICO statute will result in a 5- to 20-year sentence, a fine, or both. A judge may fine a defendant up to three times the amount of any money obtained by the defendant during the scheme.

So, would that "any money" amount include all the donations he solicited for Stop the Steal? Quite a chunck of change that. Might even have to sell Mar-a-Lago to pay it.

[CharlesWT]

Ironically, Giuliani made headlines in the '80s confounding the purpose, text, and history of RICO in his pursuit of white-collar criminals.

[Girl from the North Country]

A conviction under Georgia’s RICO statute will result in a 5- to 20-year sentence, a fine, or both. A judge may fine a defendant up to three times the amount of any money obtained by the defendant during the scheme.

And one of the best parts is that Georgia is apparently the only state, or one of the only states, where RICO is a state crime. Which has the excellent corollary that the Orange one could not pardon himself.

Oh God, make it so.

[Michael Cain]

Video... I'm getting ready to drop the video portion of the Xfinity service. My wife watched regularly and her deteriorating short-term memory function made it literally impossible for her to learn a new user interface. Ditto for Netflix DVD service, which is shutting down anyway. I may eventually add an inexpensive streaming service if I can find one that has content for when the granddaughters visit. Like Wonkie, I'm an incessant reader. I need to be more of a writer as well.

I'll drop the Xfinity data service once the city gets its sh*t together and lights up the fiber they laid within six feet of my townhouse. I think I've changed from the comcast.net e-mails everywhere that I care about.

[GftNC]

On Rishi Sunak's visit Disneyland, this Marina Hyde piece in today's Grauniad, as well as commenting on the paucity of credible Tory policies, includes this excellent comment:

Imagineer was the name Walt Disney used for those of his employees he charged with realising his vision – creating ideas and then bringing them to life by building them. You may like the Disney vision; you may not. But you can’t deny it is phenomenally successful and as competently executed as it is coherent. It seems very unfair that some people’s epithet for something you can’t take seriously is “Mickey Mouse”. Have they not heard of “Rishi Sunak”?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/15/rishi-sunak-mickey-mouse-conservatives-election

[Michael Cain]

So, would that "any money" amount include all the donations he solicited for Stop the Steal?

My suspicion is that the DA will settle for five years of incarceration. I would. Some of these people are approaching elderly and may well die in that span. All of the lawyers will be disbarred and unable to practice.

Confining Trump may be problematic. If I were to guess, I'd guess that they allow him to rent a place for him, the Secret Service squad, and some cleaning and cooking staff. Same limits on communication and visitation as he would have in jail.

[Girl from the North Country]

Hmmm, I can see the sense of your last paragraph, Michael Cain.

However, first: I hope he is convicted. And second: I hope they find another solution to his imprisonment. For a start, he should not be allowed to rent a place for himself, because it would be too luxurious (if that is what you call his taste in decor!). Something perhaps somewhat better than a jail, but no way as luxurious as Trump Tower, or Mar a Lago. I think it is very important that the American public see that nobody is above the law.

There is the old argument that a jail sentence should be rehabilitative as opposed to punitive. But if there is anybody who thinks he can be rehabilitated then their mental disability should debar them from having a voice in the discussion.

[wj]

I seem to recall there was a case where a (civilian) prisoner was housed in a cottage (not the jail) on a military base. Which would seem to be reasonable for Trump. It provides movement restrictions, limitations on visitors and communications with the outside, and is workable for the Secret Service detail.

I vote for Leavenworth as the appropriate base.

[JanieM]

Imagineer was the name Walt Disney used for those of his employees he charged with realising his vision

This makes it sound like it's in the past. It's not. One of my extended family members is an imagineer, and his job looks pretty fun to me, with its combination of techie and creative aspects.

https://disneyimaginations.com/about-imaginations/about-imagineering/

Not to go all literal-minded on you or anything.

[bobbyp]

Ironically, Giuliani made headlines in the '80s confounding the purpose, text, and history of RICO in his pursuit of white-collar criminals.

How so? Boesky and Milken were tried and found guilty by juries of their "peers". They should have been executed*, but hey, I have my prejudices.

*If somebody can get 20 to life for robbing a 7-11, those assholes deserved nothing less.

Haysus 'effing christ...it's hot up here.

PS: would love to know what wonkie is reading these days (hopefully books!).

Keep cool. Keep calm. What news of the Great Orange Turd?

[wj]

What news of the Great Orange Turd?

He seems to be pushing to find out how far he can go in ignoring the judges' instructions concerning his behavior before trial. Maybe he figures they can't lock him up -- Secret Service constraints, you know. But I'd bet that they could find some way to cope.

I wonder if anyone has clued him in to this detail of Georgia law: the burden is on the accused to convince the judge that he will not be a danger to others, engage in witness intimidation, etc. (Not sure how, Trump being Trump, that could be possible.) Otherwise? Go to jail. Directly to jail. Do not pass Go.

[liberal japonicus]

About Wyoming and suffrage

Many legislators voted for the bill hoping to increase the territory’s population. Women were scarce out west, and perhaps men were acting desperately to entice them. The Northwest Ordinance of 1787 said territories could apply for statehood once the population reached 60,000. “We now expect at once quite an immigration of ladies to Wyoming,” wrote The Cheyenne Leader, a local newspaper.

One politician claimed women’s suffrage started as a joke. Edward M. Lee, a secretary in the Territory in 1869, wrote, “Once, during the session, amid the greatest hilarity, and after the presentation of various funny amendments and in the full expectation of a gubernatorial veto, an act was passed Enfranchising the Women of Wyoming. The bill, however, was approved, became a law, and the youngest territory placed in the van of progress

and

Some legislators voted for the bill because they believed it didn’t have a very good chance of passing. William Bright took advantage of this opinion. In 1882, Governor John W. Hoyt explained how William Bright cleverly played both sides against each other:

“He said to the Democrats: ‘We have a Republican Governor and a Democratic Assembly. Now, then, if we can carry this bill through the Assembly and the Governor vetoes it, we shall have made a point, you know; we shall have shown our liberality and lost nothing. But keep still; don’t say anything about it.’ They promised. He then went to the Republicans and told them that the Democrats were going to support his measure, and that if they did not want to lose capital they had better vote for it too. He didn’t think there would be enough of them to carry it, but the vote would be on record and thus defeat the game of the other party. And they likewise agreed to vote for it. So, when the bill came to a vote, it went right through! The members looked at each other in astonishment, for they hadn’t intended to do it, quite. Then they laughed, and said it was a good joke, but they had ‘got the Governor in a fix.’ So the bill went, in the course of time, to John A. Campbell, who was then Governor—and he promptly signed it!”

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/woman-suffrage/

Not really an indicator of dyed in the wool liberalism, methinks...

[wj]

Not really an indicator of dyed in the wool liberalism, methinks...

On the other hand, they didn't promptly turn around and try to repeal it either, did they? Compare the folks today who are still trying to repeal Social Security, Medicare, Obamacare, etc., etc. So perhaps not as rabidly reactionary as today.

[Hartmut]

Birthright citizenship is on the list too.
But for the moment it's probably more important to change the Georgia pardon system just in case His Orangeness ends up condemned there with no option to either pardon himself or to get a pre-jail pardon from the governor. Currently it's a wee bit more difficult: no pardon possible until 5 years after the full sentence is finished and no new cases in sight.
Of course, another option would be to challenge the constitutionality of RICO laws, the Georgian one in particular. I guess a lot of mega/MAGA donors would be in favor of that too. But will those ungrateful bass-turds on SCOTUS agree?

[Snarki, child of Loki]

I kinda hope that Biden offers Trump a pardon on one charge: Insurrection.

Because *accepting* the pardon, while it removes punishment like fines and prison, is legally an acknowledgement of guilt.

And being guilty of insurrection means (by 14th Amendment): barred from holding office. That "bar" is not something that a presidential pardon can remove, it takes 2/3 of congress. Just for funsies, "have the vote, and have it FAIL".

What the Supremely Deplorable Six (Lawless John, Strip Search Sammy, Purchased Token, Boof, Squi, and Coathanger) do is another question.

[Girl from the North Country]

An excellent and enjoyably sneaky approach, Snarki. But I'd only be even a bit satisfied with it if he were to be found guilty on the documents, and either the January 6th or Georgia one (I can't remember which charges insurrection, but I think January 6th, and guilty in Georgia is far the preferable because of five years in prison). After all, him being barred from the presidency only would not be enough justice, unless I suppose he went bankrupt as a result.

[CharlesWT]

Trump, et al deserve some licks from the legal system. But the legal system is using some problematic laws to do it.

[Warning: the following may trigger genetic fallacy in susceptible individuals]

"The original federal RICO law was drafted for use against the mafia, allowing prosecutors to bring conspiracy charges based on certain predicate acts. It quickly expanded to include all manner of activity that was already illegal but could now be charged more aggressively. As Reason noted all the way back in 1990, "Ambitious federal prosecutors have now discovered RICO's many uses, and this poses a great danger to civil liberty and free enterprise."

Georgia's RICO law is even more expansive than its federal counterpart—for example, it does not require multiple defendants or an extended timeline to establish a conspiracy. Former prosecutor Chris Timmons told ABC News, "Somebody could go to JC Penney, shoplift a pair of socks, walk next door to Sears and shoplift a second pair of socks, and they can be charged with RICO.""
Fani Willis Is Abusing Georgia's Terrible RICO Law: Trump and his acolytes' conduct was indefensible, but the state's RICO law is overly broad and makes it too easy for prosecutors to bring charges.

[nous]

Gods, those Reason articles are as bad as the RICO abuses when it comes to lumping things together. It basically takes the case of the teachers (which it provides no details for) and uses it to generate pathos that it then spreads to the Young Thug and Gunna case. And it takes concerns for the potential abuse of the Michigan statute and asserts that Georgia's version is even worse. And all of this is left free-floating in a context of the Trump trial where it offers an out for people to dismiss the seriousness of the charges:

Perhaps Trump and his co-conspirators truly did "constitute a criminal organization," as Willis's indictment alleges. And it's entirely possible that Young Thug was party to committing felonies, either alone or as part of the YSL gang. But a conspiracy charge should require more thought and preparation than the "kitchen sink" approach currently available in Georgia and favored by one of its most prominent prosecutors.

That "perhaps...but" construction there is built to make people infer that Willis hasn't put enough thought or preparation into her prosecutions in these cases. And it does so without making any attempt to see if this is so.

Did Willis abuse RICO to go after Young Thug? What is the evidence that these cases should not be treated like RICO cases? Did these cases satisfy the federal standard despite not needing to do so under GA law?

Lazy writing, lazy thinking.

[nous]

Here's the Guardian's summary of the teachers' convictions:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/01/atlanta-teachers-found-guilty-cheating

[Hartmut]

I would not necessarily call it abuse in this case but I would also not generally disagree about potential for abuse. Unfortunately, any legal sword sharp enough to hurt the big guys can and will be abused to go after the little ones first and foremost.
And there is a bit of satisfaction in nailing those that have abused the legal system their whole life on technicalities, ideally the same they used themselves.

[wj]

Charles, this is over the top even for you.

The original motivation for the RICO law may have been the mafia. But prosecutors are not charged with guessing legislators intentions, they are charged with following the law as written. If you want to fault Congress (or the Georgia legislature) for poor wording, feel free.

As for the charges themselves. Are you arguing that this wasn't a) an extended timeline, b) criminal, or c) an enterprise (as defined by law, i.e. multiple conspirators)? It rather sounds like a), but feel free to correct me on that.

If everything had happened in a day, or even a week, there might be a there there. But two months seems pretty extended to me. (And that's not counting the months of pre-election positioning.)

[Girl from the North Country]

nous, that Guardian piece is very interesting. In my mind (I don't know if in the statute) racketeering requires the conspiracy to be for monetary gain. Otherwise, it would just be an offense of conspiracy to commit unlawful acts. Therefore, I found this to be persuasive:

The 800-page report found that teachers at some Atlanta schools were erasing wrong answers and replacing them with correct ones. Better test scores on state tests resulted in performance bonuses for teachers and principals.

****

While serving as superintendent, Hall gave principals three years to meet their testing goals. Those who didn’t were replaced. During the 10 years that she served as superintendent, she replaced 90% of the principals, reported New York Times. Hall had received $500,000 in performance bonuses.

[Girl from the North Country]

Ha, and the extended period. Thanks wj, I didn't know that was a requirement, but boy did it go on for a long time. I don't know where you get the 2 month period from, is it from the indictment (which I haven't read yet). There's no doubt that at least Trump and Giuliani conspired for much longer, until very recently.

[JanieM]

The indictment, in case anyone needs the link:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23909543-23sc188947-criminal-indictment

Also, as to an extended period: I don't know where the "two months" comes from either, but I'm going to assume it's from the election until January 6. (wj?)

The indictment covers actions and events far beyond January 6. If you skim the counts, there are lots of dates in 2021, and counts 40 and 41 involve perjury in testimony to the grand jury in April and September of 2022 respectively.

[wj]

GftNC, I was making the simplistic calculation from Election Day in early November to January 6th. Not that the whole thing didn't start sooner and run longer. But between those dates is both inarguable and plenty long enough.

[Girl from the North Country]

Aha, Janie's assumption was right, not to mention logical! I'm keen to read the indictment, I read the DC one with fascination, but I'm currently caring for an incapacitated relative, and being reminded that a woman's work is never done. And I see that the indictment is 99 pages long. Soon, I hope. And, of course, I await with the greatest of anticipation Trump's "irrefutable proof" that the Georgia election was rigged. Luckily, the relative is just as fascinated as I am, so if we can find a live feed I have no doubt we shall both watch it.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Trump has not been charged with insurrection, so far.

But if ever a person has earned it, it's Trump. Which is why a "pardon" might be grabbed with eager little fingers, if there is a rumor that charges are forthcoming.

Sneaky? Hey, if there ever was something deserving of being called "one weird trick"...

Too bad that Biden didn't offer pardons for insurrection to tons of MAGAt office-holders in January 2021. He'd probably have gotten a lot of takers. Oh well.

[JanieM]

Which is why a "pardon" might be grabbed with eager little fingers, if there is a rumor that charges are forthcoming.

I'm not convinced that Clickbait lives in the same world as the rest of us in a way that would allow him to believe in 1) the reality that such charges would mean anything to him other than inconvenience and some amount of humiliation, OR 2) the possibility that anything is really ever going to be done to hold him what we would think of as accountable.

This piece was good on the subject of how his mind words, as was the Cato (!!) piece Josh Marshall quotes and links to. (I try to avoid that kind of analysis and speculation, but someone who usually sends me interesting things sent me the TPM piece and that got me going today.....)

I've seen a lot of speculation (mostly in skimming BJ comments) that Clickbait is probably enraged and panicking. Who knows! But even if it's true, I wonder if the rage and panic are more because all this stupid legal stuff is threatening to deflect him from his proper agenda of getting back to the White House and staying there forever, than because he actually thinks he's going to be convicted of something.

Sheesh, I hope I live long enough to never hear or see his name in print again.......

[Girl from the North Country]

Sneaky? Hey, if there ever was something deserving of being called "one weird trick"..

Yes, I was not satisfied with the word sneaky, but had no time to ponder (a GftNC's work is never done), but now you mention it, "tricksy" would have been far better and would properly acknowledge your parent. And with a soupcon of "Machiavellian" also, too.

[wj]

I wonder if the rage and panic are more because all this stupid legal stuff is threatening to deflect him from his proper agenda of getting back to the White House and staying there forever, than because he actually thinks he's going to be convicted of something.

People as desperate for adulation as Trump often believe in their hearts that they are unworthy. That's why they bluster so loudly and reflexively: lest the rest of the world notice. Which would lead to rage and panic at anything which would pull back the curtain.

It may be that he actually does feel immune. Rage would come from anyone having the temerity to challenge that. But panic would likely not hit until the first Guilty verdict gets pronounced -- because until that point he continues to believe his immunity will protect him.

[Hartmut]

GftNc, there are podcasts of the indictments being read out (e.g. by MSNBC's Ali Velshi)
https://open.spotify.com/show/1ThqNEZVsv7DlMxEn7TSP1

[bobbyp]

Charles, this is over the top even for you.

Liberty, to a libertarian, is the freedom to do whatever you want as long as it does not hurt others and libertarians get the sole authority to determine what constitutes "hurt".

[Pro Bono]

Using RICO against the Atlanta teachers was just wrong.

Campbell's Law says that "The more any quantitative social indicator is used for social decision-making, the more subject it will be to corruption pressures and the more apt it will be to distort and corrupt the social processes it is intended to monitor."

Donald Campbell's paper on the subject observes specifically that "Achievement tests are, in fact, highly corruptible indicators."

At Atlanta school superintendent, apparently ignorant of the science, chose to make teachers' jobs, and in some cases their schools' continued existence, depend on test results improving. And lo! test results improved. Apparently this is because something approaching 200 teachers cheated on the tests. That is, it wasn't just a few bad apples, it was a significant proportion of the teachers' affected reacting just as Campbell predicted.

If you do something stupid which results in fallible humans reacting as fallible humans can be expected to, locking them up for racketeering is the wrong response.

Locking up Trump on the other hand...

[nous]

If you want to go after Willis for abusing RICO in the case of the Atlanta teachers, then this is the way to do that:

https://creativeloafing.com/content-475770-op-ed-systemic-racism

I don't feel that I have enough information about what happened to say whether or not this was a responsible use of RICO (too much of a time sink to do that research), but I do agree that the entire situation was a product of horrible educational policy decisions that were doomed to fail and to punish educators for that failure.

[Girl from the North Country]

Meanwhile, distressing news:

“Rather than releasing the Report on the Rigged & Stolen Georgia 2020 Presidential Election on Monday, my lawyers would prefer putting this, I believe, Irrefutable & Overwhelming evidence of Election Fraud & Irregularities in formal Legal Filings as we fight to dismiss this disgraceful Indictment by a publicity & campaign finance seeking D.A.,” Trump wrote Thursday night on Truth Social, “Therefore, the News Conference is no longer necessary!”

[wj]

Sounds like the lawyers said STFU or we all quit. And he didn't quite dare to call their bluff. Bullies are like that.

[JanieM]

publicity & campaign finance seeking

What was that about everything they say being projection?

There's a reason why I refer to him as Clickbait.

[nous]

Oh yeah...all that irrefutable evidence is going to get filed in an actual court case with legal standards for veracity. They've been withholding it in all the other cases they lost, waiting for the Really Really Big moment to spring the trap. This time it's different.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

[wj]

Except that lawyers have this extreme allergy to lying to a judge in court. Even the utter incompetents that TIFG had working for him in 2020 weren't willing to do that. These guys won't either. So no Report this time either. (And how would a judge react to a submission littered with ALL CAPS? I'm guessing not well.)

[Girl from the North Country]

I do believe that's what nous meant, wj! And the random caps were one of my favourite parts - even though I'm not such a brilliant user of them either (I never know whether e.g. presidency or Presidency, jew or Jew). But his use of caps cracks me up.

[Pro Bono]

Would it not be a sufficient defence to some of the charges for Trump to show that he believed his ridiculous allegations? So his lawyers wouldn't have to advance Trump's evidence as actually showing that the election was fixed.

The strategy would be for the lawyers to say "the court may not find this convincing, but the defendant does". And for Trump to make that case by ranting about it from the witness box.

[bobbyp]

Would it not be a sufficient defence to some of the charges for Trump to show that he believed his ridiculous allegations?

No.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

" And for Trump to make that case by ranting about it from the witness box."

If Trump wants to get into the witness box, under oath, I'm sure that the prosecutors won't stand in his way.

And he can *try* ranting, but I'd bet the judge has something to say about it.

After Trump's "perfect" testimony, it'll be time for the "nasty" cross-examination. Fun.

[wj]

What bobbyp said.

TIFG can believe whatever fantasy he likes. He can say that fantasy is true as much as he likes and as fervently as he likes. But that belief is not, repeat not, in any way** a defense for taking illegal actions based on it.

** Unless, I suppose, the defense is using it in support of a claim of mental incapacity. While it would be amusing to watch his cultists' reaction to him making such a claim in court, ain't gonna happen.

[Pro Bono]

Counts 29 and 39 of the Georgia indictment seem to require the accused to have known that his statement was false.

[wj]

IANAL, but those statutes tend to be written to include both 1) the accused knew his statement was false and, 2) alternatively, that a reasonable person would have realized it was false. Considering the number of people who had told him exactly that, the second one seems likely to catch him. Even if, as seems not impossible, he is incapable of understanding that something he says is false in the real world.

[Pro Bono]

Here's the statute.

Not that it matters very much if Trump's convicted of the racketeering charge, and it's hard to see how he could not be.

[wj]

"A person who knowingly and willfully falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact..."

That he used various schemes (e.g. false electors) to falsify and conceal a material fact (that he lost in, for example Georgia) doesn't seem refutable. Neither does "willfully."

So the crux is "knowingly" -- did he know it was false? And the standard there is did he know? OR, would a reasonable person, given the information he had, have known. Given the number of people around him telling him there was no election fraud, the latter seems pretty much a slam dunk. Especially given the specificity of his demand that the Georgia Sec of State find him exactly 1 more vote than his losing margin.

[Girl from the North Country]

That reasonable person is known, in English law, as "the man on the Clapham omnibus".

[wj]

known, in English law, as "the man on the Clapham omnibus".

I wonder what English law called it pre-omnibus. (Pre-Cloppaham not being a worthwhile option... :-)

[CharlesWT]

Here's the statute.

Several LLMs weigh in on the statute.

From a legal standpoint, are there any problems with this statute?

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