It's WEIRD all the way down

by liberal japonicus

In a discussion about how to set up and evaluate moodle discussions, I wanted to make the point that there were a lot of assumptions that were being made and I passed on this article from 2013 about WEIRD (Western, educated, and from industrialized, rich, and democratic countries) subjects of psychology research and how they might not be so indicative and this passage tickled me a bit.

The majority of these “intimate relations” were not actually sexual intercourse; they were experiences where the “goal was sexual arousal.” The authors don’t report what these experiences included, but it could have been everything from first base to a home run.

I love how, in a discussion of how WEIRD subjects may affect psychological research results they have a metaphor that excludes the parts of the world that don't play baseball. Which, of course, had me go down a rabbit-hole

A UK magazine explanation

The glorious XKCD visual chart

An 1991 article with a disturbing section of baseball metaphors offered up by middle and high school students making me realize what a sheltered life I led.

This thread about what is the equivalent in English speaking countries that don't have baseball is too short

And of course, there is a wikipedia page

If you were wondering, Japanese youth, when I first came to Japan, used a scale from A to C, with A being equal to first base/kissing and C being equal to home/intercourse, though this was an 80's thing. A few webpages suggest that the current formulation is HIJK. H=ettchi(sex), I=ai(love) J=junya(junior i.e. baby) and K=kekkon (marriage) but that seems too clever, so I doubt it has any currency.

Anyway,

Comments

[Ugh]

“Napoleon’s forces” lol

[Snarki, child of Loki]

That one's for hanky-panky in the water-loo.

Maybe.

[wj]

I hit the sub-block of the 1991 article: The Metaphor’s Recent Connection with Sexual Assault Issues, specifically "the men in the movie cheering the rapists", and my immediate thought was Kavanaugh.

[nous]

"the men in the movie cheering the rapists"

My wife taught Blade Runner in one of her classes. There's that one scene where Rachel is resisting Deckard's advances and he slaps her in the face and then she kisses him passionately - horrible trope from that period in film.

When she screened it in class, one of her male students unironically blurted out "Yeah, that's the way you do it!," whereupon the film was paused and a teaching moment occurred.

[Girl from the North Country]

An excellent teaching moment. Alas, think of all the young men who don't get that opportunity to learn. Meanwhile, trying to change the culture so that boys (and girls - "he hit me and it felt like a kiss") don't absorb that kind of thing from childhood is the challenge. It's started, at least in our WEIRD societies, but there's still an awfully long way to go. Look at Incel culture, and the assumptions that underlie it. And if recent political developments throughout the world have taught us anything, it's that we cannot assume that change for the better is bound to carry on and succeed.

[wj]

Look at Incel culture, and the assumptions that underlie it.

Call me dense, but I have to wonder why these "incel" guys never ask themselves "What am I doing that the other sex finds so utterly repulsive?"

Because, if you look at some of the characters who do manage to find relationships, or even marriage, it should be obvious that something is seriously wrong with them.

[wj]

Question of the day:
What (if anything) is the difference between an incel group which decries their inability to attract the opposite sex, and an ultra-conservative group which decries its inability to attract a majority of voters? And what (also if anything) is the philosophical difference in their approaches to, as they see it, correct their problem?

[Girl from the North Country]

wj, I am calling you dense, if only affectionately. That is because in answer to your first question, it is because the incels belong to that not-so-select group who believe that nothing is ever their fault (see Trump, among many others).

And in answer to your second question, the ultra-conservative group does not decry its inability to attract a majority of voters, on the contrary they believe they do indeed attract the majority of voters who are real people, and that therefore their opponents are cheating in various and sundry ways (including but not limited to giving the vote to people who are not real people).

And on a slightly (but not very much) lighter note, with reference to your first question I copy a Robert Graves poem called A Slice of Wedding Cake, of which I am very fond:

Why have such scores of lovely, gifted girls
Married impossible men?
Simple self-sacrifice may be ruled out,
And missionary endeavour, nine times out of ten.

Repeat 'impossible men': not merely rustic,
Foul-tempered or depraved
(Dramatic foils chosen to show the world
How well women behave, and always have behaved).

Impossible men: idle, illiterate,
Self-pitying, dirty, sly,
For whose appearance even in City parks
Excuses must be made to casual passers-by.

Has God's supply of tolerable husbands
Fallen, in fact, so low?
Or do I always over-value woman
At the expense of man?
Do I?
It might be so.

[nous]

The real answer to what is wrong with incels is that they buy into a transactional view of relationships. They are not alone in this, but they resent what they see as their own lack of resources to complete these transactions. It's just the short side of the dysfunctional Player Culture people are taught in popular media.

We have to stop thinking of ourselves and others as products and start treating each other as creatures to be afforded mutual regard.

Selah.

[Hartmut]

I am incel in the way it was originally defined (before 'incel culture' appropriated the term).
I have a pretty good idea why I am in that (very likely permanent) state and I do not blame the other sex for it.
To quote a German comedian from the 1920ies: "The woman that would marry me would be disagreeable to me for that very fact."
(clear proof of bad taste and lack of character judgement).
Apart from that I'd be a terrible parent, so offspring is out of the question anyway.

[Priest]

Re-purposed in America to "I would never join a club that would have me as a member."

[JanieM]

Shorter version of something I heard told long ago as a sort of fable.

I've been thinking a lot over the past few years about the meaning of "for better and for worse" (etc.) -- and how there is, at least in the US, or at least in the circles I've been in, a sort of (counselor-fed?) notion that all bumps can be smoothed out, all irritating qualities negotiated away, etc.

Nope. We are all never-perfectly-fitting-with-each-other puzzle pieces, and some parts are never going to stop misfitting and creating friction. I believe the answer is to figure out where your deal-breaker point is, and learn to manage the rest. Those of you who have been happily married for decades might have more to say about this; for me, it's something to file away for my next lifetime. Along with being able to dunk a basketball, dance like Colin Dunne, and become fluent in a second language.

No way to do justice to the topic, but I've been following it with interest.

[novakant]

Hartmut, I wouldn't resign myself to this state of affairs, I'm sure there must be someone out there.

But, as (recently semi-disgraced) comedian once said:

80 percent of success in life is just showing up.

[Girl from the North Country]

a sort of (counselor-fed?) notion that all bumps can be smoothed out, all irritating qualities negotiated away, etc

Probably connected to the insidious, damaging and asinine "positivity" movement. Ditto the "wellness" industry. Blaming, for example, cancer patients for their own poor outcomes because of inadequately positive attitudes, behaviours etc. I loathe it, and all its works.

[Pro Bono]

Pete recently declared war on being at war against things. For my part, I'm in a battle against fighting a battle against disease.

[Girl from the North Country]

Ha! I'm totally with you on that one, Pro Bono. And while I'm at it, also in a battle against quacks who claim "western" or "traditional" medicine is not the answer to actual, real diseases.

[JanieM]

@Pro Bono: if I understand your comment correctly, I am in the same "battle." (Although I don't really want to call it that. :-)

Although I think they'll have to be reminded if it becomes relevant, I have told my kids and a couple of close friends not to DARE include "she fought a courageous battle against...." in my obituary.

To me, it's a really objectionable framing.

****

As for GftNC's 6:22, "western" or "traditional" medicine has it's excellences. It also has severe limitations, which are often not admitted or recognized. As the parent of an adult with longstanding, undiagnosable, apparently untreatable chronic pain issues, I am closely acquainted with the limitations. (Which extend to "non-traditional" treatments as well, in this case.)

[JanieM]

it's -> its

[JanieM]

From Neil deGrasse Tyson:

As the area of our knowledge grows, so too does the perimeter of our ignorance.

I think a lot of people forget this in relation to "western" medicine, and certainly in relation to modern high technology. I quit even bothering to look at Tech Review, which is a general tech magazine that also contains (or used to, in the paper edition) the MIT alumni magazine. The techbro cheerleading in terms of how tech was going to solve every problem, probably next week, just got sort of ridiculous after a while. I mean, science and technology do solve a lot of problems, but they also create some, and anyhow, a little humility and a little sense of history can be useful at times....

[Pro Bono]

@JanieM: sorry, I was unclear. I have a very strong objection to the framing, not a diagnosis of my own.

My late wife didn't lose a battle. She summoned extraordinary mental strength to make the short time she had as good as could be for our children and me. They have grown up to be wonderful people, and the credit is hers. It's not fighting a battle, it's following a path.

My best wihes for your journey.

[JanieM]

Pro Bono -- I was unclear! My battle is against the framing, not any current diagnosis. The way you describe your wife as having been on a path is a model for the rest of us.

[Girl from the North Country]

It also has severe limitations

This is absolutely true, and good doctors and scientists acknowledge it. What I deplore is when alternative practitioners dissuade e.g. cancer sufferers not to have chemo, or radiation, which has happened to more than one friend of mine who subsequently died.

Alan Bennett, the playwright and ex-Beyond the Fringe member, wrote in 2005 about how when he went to the Hale Clinic, a very well known and ostensibly respectable institution whose website strapline is "With over 50 different therapy options, we offer the widest range of holistic treatments in Europe", in order to get into the best possible shape before undergoing chemo for his recently diagnosed colon cancer, which had a very poor prognosis, the practitioner he saw tried to dissuade him from chemo "It's a poison you know!". Obviously, he was extremely shocked and ignored the advice, and luckily the outcome was good and he continues well, but what a shocking and appalling incident. It is a terrible shame that those kinds of attitudes have any kind of respectability.

[Girl from the North Country]

Sorry, just lost my second apology comment!

I meant of course when alternative practitioners dissuade e.g. cancer sufferers from having chemo, or radiation....

Was trying to do two things at once, and then lost the original comment and had to start again.

Plus, I keep being timed out, despite not taking long. Grrrr

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Have you heard about the homeopath who accidentally drank a glass of pure distilled water, and died of an overdose?

[Girl from the North Country]

On the home front, Kamikwasi Kwarteng is sacked, Jeremy Hunt is the new Chancellor, and Liz Truss tries to fight for her life, while the UK is now (according to a pundit from the financial world on TV a couple of nights ago) regarded "like Italy" in terms of financial instability.

ps I just got timed out, and had to do this again, after being on for approximately 5 minutes, or less! What has happened here - is it connected to the blog being unavailable a few days ago?

[Nigel]

Only another two Chancellors to go 'til Christmas...

[wj]

What has happened here - is it connected to the blog being unavailable a few days ago?

No clue as to the cause. But I'm not seeing the problem here, so I'd guess it's not related to the outage.

From what little I can see of Truss, it looks like she's in waaaay over her head. Can't admit it, of course. Perhaps especially to herself. But the main question would seem to be, how long before the Tories resign themselves to cutting their losses, and cutting her loose?

[Pro Bono]

Kwasi Kwarteng interviewed yesterday:

Q: "You'll be Chancellor, and Liz Truss will still be Prime Minister, this time next month?"
A: "Absolutely, one hundred percent, I'm not going anywhere."

Liz Truss campaigned for election as Tory leader on a platform of daft tax cuts, and won. She appointed Kwarteng to implement her policies. He did as instructed, and she's sacked him for it.

A month or so ago wj quoted a columnist:
"Truss is already showing man-management skills by appointing a cabinet almost exclusively from her own backers. A weaker person would have sued for peace with Sunak’s camp, bringing many of them into the fold."
Now she's sacked Kwarteng to bring in someone from Sunak's camp.

[Pro Bono]

...the practitioner he saw tried to dissuade him from chemo "It's a poison you know!"...

Well, it is a poison. It can be a reasonable decision to refuse palliative chemotherapy, accepting lower life expectancy in exchange for a short period of less bad health.

On the other hand, refusing curative chemotherapy is just a way of killing yourself.

[Nigel]

Picture now complicated by the availability of immunotherapy for some cases, of course. Not that can't also be a pretty brutal treatment.

[Nigel]

On a lighter note.

Worst. Calendar. Ever
https://twitter.com/troovus/status/1580929494294007808

[novakant]

I don't know if I should laugh or cry, Nigel.

My default position used to be: if it's bad for the Tories it's good for the UK, at least in the medium term.

But this clown show has now been going on for so long now, that I'm afraid irreparable damage has been done to the country. And when it comes down to it people will keep voting Tory, because Labour is equivalent to chaos (wokeness, antisemitism, class war, whathaveyou ...)

[novakant]

Labour = chaos - seems to work every time.

David Cameron (2015):

"Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband"

https://twitter.com/david_cameron/status/595112367358406656?lang=en-GB

Tories (2017)

"A coalition of #chaos: Jeremy Corbyn, propped up by the SNP – with Nicola Sturgeon pulling the strings. Don't risk it: #VoteConservative"

https://twitter.com/conservatives/status/872038860657655809?lang=en-GB

Tories (2019)

"Jeremy Corbyn and Labour offer nothing but more chaos and confusion by voting to delay Brexit again, and refusing to back a general election."

https://twitter.com/conservatives/status/1188923643365068802

[wj]

people will keep voting Tory, because Labour is equivalent to chaos

On the evidence, for the last few years it's the Tories (at least the Brexit Tories, who seem to be in charge) who are the equivalent of chaos.

[Girl from the North Country]

Well, it is a poison. It can be a reasonable decision to refuse palliative chemotherapy, accepting lower life expectancy in exchange for a short period of less bad health.

On the other hand, refusing curative chemotherapy is just a way of killing yourself.

Of course it's a fucking poison, and feels like it too when you're undergoing it. And believe me, I wasn't talking about a refusal of palliative chemo, I was talking about curative chemo which seems to have cured Alan Bennett (DV), and may well have cured my friends, one of whom finally started having it when it was too late, but from the response of the cancer it seemed clear that if she had started earlier she would have (as her oncologists had advised) stood a good chance.

[Girl from the North Country]

"Truss is already showing man-management skills by appointing a cabinet almost exclusively from her own backers. A weaker person would have sued for peace with Sunak’s camp, bringing many of them into the fold."

Hollow laugh. I don't remember that, but whoever wrote it was clearly an idiot, as anybody sensible could see then, and before then.

No wonder the Tories are panicking - they've been in power for 12 years, and the country is in the worst hole it's been in for many, many decades. Dear God I hope Keir can capitalise on this...

[GftNC]

And the inimitable Marina Hyde on the situation:

For some time now, it has been impossible to listen to Truss babbling about being “in lockstep” with her chancellor without imagining her being cut off by Agent Smith from the Matrix with the grimly brusque words: “No, prime minster, your chancellor is already dead.” In fact, it was over two weeks ago that Kwarteng suffered the fate of various movie villains. He may have appeared to be intact since then, but he had actually been very cleanly sliced in half, or delay-killed with a forbidden martial arts technique known as “the kiss of the markets”. Ironically, he departs the stage just as his mini-budget is finally becoming worthy of its descriptor. At this rate of U-turn, it will be so mini that the only thing left in it will be some opening remarks.

Will Hunt coming on for Kwarteng be enough to save Truss for 15 minutes or so? It’s not great when your first throw of the dice is also your last. Still, let’s take the temperature of the Conservative party’s restive MPs. According to their own heroic off-the-record testimony, the mood this week ran the gamut from “funereal” to “unspeakably bleak”. “We are being offered the choice of a shit sandwich,” one MP explained, “or a shit sandwich with extra shit.” Righto. When this was being said on Thursday, Truss had been prime minister for precisely 37 days. Coincidentally, that’s the exact number of days that elapsed between the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand and Britain joining the first world war – whose outbreak was arguably the only chain of events in modern history involving worse human error.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/14/kwasi-kwarteng-liz-truss-jeremy-hunt

[novakant]

On the evidence, for the last few years it's the Tories (at least the Brexit Tories, who seem to be in charge) who are the equivalent of chaos.

wj, that was the point I was trying to make rather clumsily

[Nigel]

“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband"…

Milliband retweeted that comment, adding a clown face, today.
I quite admire his waiting seven years to get his revenge.

He’s also a pretty accomplished Commons performer these days.

[novakant]

Twitter jokers are having a good day:

"If someone writes a book about this summer, they should call it Four Chancellors and a Funeral."

https://twitter.com/Philmoorhouse76/status/1580922785601269760

[JanieM]

Four Chancellors and a Funeral

That made me laugh out loud. I do love Twitter humor, as long as someone else is sifting the dreck to find it for me. ;-)

[JanieM]

Also, as far as waiting seven years for payback goes, here's a story that I absolutely love about former MLB pitcher Greg Maddux (this is from his Wiki page). I've been told by a friend who's a former fast-pitch softball pitcher himself that this isn't that surprising, but if Maddux says it's his most memorable at-bat, I'm going with that:

Early in the 2000 season, Maddux was asked by sportswriter Bob Nightengale what had been the most memorable at-bat of his pitching career. Maddux said it was striking out Dave Martinez to end a regular season game. Nightengale was surprised Maddux hadn't picked a postseason game, or a more famous player. Maddux explained: "I remember that one because he got a hit off me in the same situation (full count, bases loaded, two out in the 9th inning) seven years earlier. I told myself if I ever got in the same situation again, I'll pitch him differently. It took me seven years, but I got him."

[JanieM]

And hey, the OP includes the topic of baseball metaphors, so a story about a famous baseball player isn't too far off base, is it?

(Ducks....)

[wj]

Janie, struggling to imagine what "bases loaded" would be a metaphor for....

[CharlesWT]

"Bases loaded: Threesome"
Baseball as a Sexual Metaphor

[JanieM]

Janie, struggling to imagine what "bases loaded" would be a metaphor for....

Hey, it's lj's post, ask him. ;-)

*****

Oh wait, CharlesWT to the rescue.

[wj]

And "runners at the corners" . . . ?

And how about "double steal"?

I keep finding how deficient my imagination is. Or maybe how narrow my experience (even second hand experience) has been.

[liberal japonicus]

More twitter humor for Janie (apologies for not providing the links)
===
Apparently Kwasi Kwarteng had trouble getting a seat on the plane cos nobody wanted him anywhere near business or economy
===
'So Kwasi, there's a gap in your CV here of thirty-eight days; care to explain it?'
===
I’ve had menstrual cycles that have lasted longer than Kwasi Kwarteng as Chancellor
===
Kwasi Kwarteng sacked after 38 days as Chancellor.

Life comes at you fast.
===
only three Chancellors 'till Christmas...
===
Schrödinger’s chancellor: simultaneously on the bus and under the bus.
===
A photo of two pieces of toast with the caption "A candid photo of Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng"
===
A lot of perishable jokes as well
====
I literally have some cheese in my fridge that has lasted longer than Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng
===
The Daily Star one ups that with a live stream of a photo of Truss and a head of lettuce, wondering which will last longer.