A brass etymology thread

by liberal japonicus

A thread for non Ukraine stuff.

Mentioned in the comments was a shortage of brass as it relates to ammunition. I wanted to make a cutesy comment about how I didn't think there was really a shortage of brass (with the meaning of gall, chutzpah, etc) and went off to look for a link that might reference that so I wasn't just tossing it out there, which took me enjoyably down the rabbit hole.

Apologies for slipping into lecture mode, Brass actually is quite interwoven with human history. As an alloy of copper and zinc, it was known to the Romans, but never produced reliably because zinc wasn't viewed as a metal so it only gets going after the Medieval age. On the other hand, the production of bronze (copper and tin) as an alloy of two metals, was probably more understandable.

The timing of figuring out how to make brass synchs with the King James bible, so you have lots of references to brass there as well as the rise of orchestral music, giving you brass instruments. A YouTube video (that might require a trigger warning for musicians) of a damaged horn being repaired.

The word has been floating around my head because someone described Boris Johnson has having a 'brass neck'. It's interesting that definitions of that also include 'gall', which not only related to a bodily fluid from the bile duct and gall bladder (the IE etymology is related to yellow) but also related to metals as a verb (to gall) which now has me wonder if there is some connection there.

Anyway, a non Ukraine thread for whatever.

Comments

[Snarki, child of Loki]

A post that will lead to plumbing the depths of history, metallurgy, etymology, and irony.

Solder on, boldly!

[Michael Cain]

NASA's Inspector General testified this week that the per-launch cost for the Space Launch System plus Orion capsule for Moon-then-Mars missions will be $4B, not the $2B that NASA's been advertising. Also that it's almost impossible the first landing mission will fly before 2026, a year later than the (slipped) schedule NASA released three months ago.

[hairshirthedonist]

I have a vague memory of reading an article on a plane about French saxophones having a particular timbre because they were made from the brass of old shell casings. There was speculation that the concussion of firing somehow gave the brass properties that resulted in a better sound. That sounds goofy to me, but it's still got some appeal as a myth. I want to believe it, even though I don't.

[wj]

Or perhaps the brass in shell casings had a somewhat different ratio of zinc to copper than normal brass. Maybe to deal with the high pressures of firing?

That is, it wasn't the concussion of firing; it was preparing to handle the concussion which made the difference.

[Michael Cain]

Utah's Republican-control legislature is passing several changes to the state's water laws and infrastructure to encourage water conservation and preserve the Great Salt Lake. Most surprising perhaps is that they didn't approve funding for two major new water diversion projects.

[nous]

That French sax brass myth sounds to me like the cryo treated guitar cable myths (and the cryo treated gun barrel myth while we are at it). Anything to give your product the Aura of Woo.

[Michael Cain]

There was speculation that the concussion of firing somehow gave the brass properties that resulted in a better sound.

Firing has a known effect on the crystal structure of the casing alloy. Too many reloadings and firings and the brass can get brittle enough to split. This effect goes away if the metal is heated for a sustained period, eg, gone completely if melted and recast into sheets.

Instrument companies assert -- with some evidence -- that changes in alloy percentages, wall thickness, plating, and lacquer all affect tone at least somewhat. Not to mention things like exact bell shape.

[Pro Bono]

I think that gall meaning impudence has a different derivation from gall meaning chafe.

I'm curious as to how gall, the personality trait, evolved from being an alternative word for choler, the irascibility once thought to be caused by an excess of yellow bile, to the quite different modern meaning.

[hairshirthedonist]

This effect goes away if the metal is heated for a sustained period, eg, gone completely if melted and recast into sheets.

That's what makes it sound goofy to me. It's not like they picked up shell casings and simply mushed them into the shape of a saxophone with a fancy pair of pliers.

[CharlesWT]

Discussions on alloy blends and their effects on saxophone musical characteristics.

"I find it quite believable that late 40s - early 50s French saxes could have been made with brass from recycled shells, perhaps with a 70-30 “cartridge brass” ratio rather than an 80-20 “musical instrument” ratio. Whether this would have any significant effect on timbre, and by what mechanism that might work, is not clear to me. Oddly, it seems that more zinc increases sound attenuation, which one might think would not be helpful to timbre. I don't know. (Incidentally, I've also heard it suggested that 1930s European horns used brass from WWI shell casings. Maybe there is a 95-year-old French metallurgist out there somewhere who knows about this.)"
Peter Spitzer Music Blog: Saxophone Metals - Some Scientific Opinions

[nous]

I think that gall meaning impudence has a different derivation from gall meaning chafe.

There are three entries for gall as a noun in the OED: the one associated with the liver (and thus with humours); the one associated with a swelling or wound caused by rubbing or chafing; the one associated with growths on trees (which may be related to the second entry in that they are often caused by injuries or irritations).

The verb form goes with the second use, though which gave rise to the other is not clear.

[GftNC]

I thought the growths-on-trees galls were caused by specialised wasps laying their eggs there? Mind you, that probably causes an injury or irritation...

Since this is ObWi, I checked, rather than just opine! The website treesforlife.org.uk says:

Galls are the bizarre lumps, bumps and growths that develop on plants after being invaded by some very unique organisms. Galls appear on over half of all plant families and have a range of causers, including viruses, fungi, bacteria, insects and mites.

And by the way, I assumed that medieval etc ink, called "oak gall" was made from these galls. And lo and behold, as well as getting confirmation re the wasps, I also found this:

Documents such as the Magna Carta and the American Declaration of Independence were written with oak gall ink.

https://www.woodland-ways.co.uk/blog/primitive-crafts/oak-gall-ink/

[wj]

Documents such as the Magna Carta and the American Declaration of Independence were written with oak gall ink.

Well, we already knew it took a lot of gall for the Founding Fathers to declare independence from the Crown....

[liberal japonicus]

It looks like there is a Proto-Germanic and a Latin derivation (that was borrowed into Old English!) that are phonetically similar

https://www.etymonline.com/word/gall

though it is understandable how something that irritates can describe the result and be attributed to the cause.

[Russell]

I have a vague memory of reading an article on a plane about French saxophones having a particular timbre because they were made from the brass of old shell casings.

I’m not sure whether, or how, this translates to brass, saxophones, or shell casings, but it’s absolutely true that cymbals (made of bronze) are improved by various kinds of stress during manufacturing, most significantly work hardening by means of hammering. Old cymbals are highly valued because sound better due to being played on for decades, and some guys break cymbals in by beating the bejesus out of them for sustained periods.

Some say the unique sound of Stradivarius string instruments is due in no small part to density of the wood they were made from, which in turn was due to a spell of unusually cold weather in the alpine valleys from which the wood was taken.

The ear knows.

[Michael Cain]

The ear knows.

Unfortunately, not mine anymore. As the audiologist described it, "We can replace one set of impairments with another, hopefully less objectionable, set of impairments. You can't have your 25-year-old ears back again."

[russell]

You can't have your 25-year-old ears back again.

True dat.

That said, I'm not sure it's about having your 25 year old ears back again, or not.

I have a congenital hearing deficiency, and have worn hearing aids off and on since I was about 5. It definitely has an effect on what I can and can't hear.

But I've also been paying a lot of attention to sound since forever, as a player and as a listener. And I hear details that most folks don't, because I'm paying attention.

There is a lot of information in sound, especially sound that is intentionally created by people. You don't necessarily have to have the hearing of a 20 year old to discern it, you just need to listen attentively and learn to hear it.

It's the same for lots of things. My wife notices minute differences in color and fabric texture that I'm oblivious to, because she worked for lots of years as an interior designer. Graphic designers notice details in the arrangement of things on a page or screen that go right past me. They register at some level, probably, but I'm not aware of it consciously, and don't have the background (or, in some cases, interest) to even know what to look for.

Attention, and learning what it is you're looking for, make an enormous difference. Even in the face of our individual limitations.

[byomtov]

I think hammering metal closes up small openings on the inside - "voids" - caused in the manufacturing process.

I can see how that might affect the sound, and possibly improve it by removing stray frequencies.