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January 11, 2021

Comments

Me in RL... pretty much just as political as online. I always have been political. I was 16 years old and living in Miami when the 1972 GOP Convention was held there - and I marched, I hung out with the VVAW, sat in on strategy meetings.

99% of my friends and family are Democrats, with my BernieBro brother being on the blue-shift end and the rest of us more or less standard-issue liberal Democrats.

I have one friend over on the righthand side of the spectrum, who would still be a Republican if it weren't for the GOP. To his great annoyance, he has been voting the straight Democratic ticket for years simply because, ever since G W Bush, he sees the GOP as a clear and present danger to the country. (You can guess his opinion of Trump and Trumpism.)

Does anyone know if that "chatter" was out of the ordinary?

I'd say the talk about putting two in Pelosi's noggin might have attracted attention.

Seriously, if you're really asking in good faith, spin up Google and try this:

internet chatter before capitol riot

that should keep you busy for a while.

Conservatives here, and everywhere, seem to be invested in minimizing the events of last week. Or, drawing an equivalence between them, and the BLM protests of last summer.

The two are not equivalent. They are different in kind and intent. Both were instances of politically motivated violence, that's pretty much all they have in common.

The "losers" who "don't have a life" include active and retired military and police. Also current and former public office holders. It includes people who demonstrated military discipline and training, and were using that in the actions they took.

It involved firearms, tasers, pipe bombs and molotov cocktails, and zip restraints. It involved attackers seeking out specific members of Congressional leadership as well as the VPOTUS. And it was intended to usurp the peaceful transfer of power. That is why it occurred when and where it did.

If the differences here are not apparent, then it's hardly worth discussing. It's like arguing with people who start from the position that COVID doesn't exist. The level of effort required to even get to the most minimal consensus about the basic facts on the ground is too great to make it worthwhile.

If it makes you feel better to think of all of it as just a bunch of losers who quickly got their asses whipped and then went to dinner, fine. Go your way and live your life.

There is a significant number of people in this country who are fine with overthrowing the Constitution and the rule of law if it means they can get their way. That is the problem.

Racism is a factor, but racism is ubiquitous, so whatever. Class is maybe a factor, but no small number of Trump supporters are more than well off, so that's not really the heart of it.

The issue is the very large number of Trump supporters who would be fine with overthrowing the rule of law if it meant their guy would stay in office. And that is compounded by the truly remarkable number of them who believe things that are plainly not true.

And all of that is compounded by the willingness of many thousands of them to engage in organized, concerted acts of violence in support of all of that.

That is a threat. It's a threat to the continuation of this country as a constitutional republic.

If you don't see that after last week, you don't want to see it, and there's not one damned thing I'm able to say to change that. It's on you. I'm happy to talk with you all about stuff, but that has to be the starting point. Otherwise it's not worth the time spent.

What I want to know is *what are you conservatives going to do about it*. That is my question.

You want to talk about politics in the US, that is the question you need to address.

If you have an answer, fine. If not, have a good night.

I used to have a lot more rw friends than I do now. I was involved in a martial arts group for several years whose members associated with people across the country. Some of the wider training group were former military, some were current LEO, some of their former training partners were big name speakers at the NRA convention.

About the time of the Ferguson protests I saw the whole group start sliding into alt-right territory, getting taken in by MRA talking points and believing that Obama was going to declare martial law and stuff like that. I kept quiet and kept training until they started to laugh about students being pepper sprayed at UC Davis and said that if students blocked access to a street and any antifa showed up they would ram them with a car... I stepped away quietly shortly thereafter.

I'm not really surprised by anything that has happened. They have been rehearsing this in their heads since 2014 and just looking for a moment that matched the one already in their heads.

What has really surprised me, though, is to watch my Christian homeschool alt-medicine family fall to that side as well in the last two years under the strain of trying to justify their support of the GOP. Suddenly the 40 year pro-lifers were excusing putting children in cages and screaming about bodily autonomy whenever someone mentioned masks or vaccines.

Now I treat them as cult members.

And if I argue for lenience, it's because I'd like the cult members to rejoin the rest of us before the accelerationists get their way.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-mob-failure/2021/01/11/36a46e2e-542e-11eb-a817-e5e7f8a406d6_story.html

From JDT's link.

Trump aides did three takes of the video and chose the most palatable option — despite some West Wing consternation that the president had called the violent protesters “very special.”
Rather makes one wonder what the other two, less palatable, takes were like.

So, yes to nuance.

OK! Let's try some...

BLM deaths.

extent of property damage

Millions participated, and participated peacefully in protests that nudged us to seriously consider far reaching criminal justice and police reform.

So yes, nuance and perspective. Objective students need to have these attributes.

The Supremes drop another intellectual pretzel on us. Way to go deep conservative thinkers.

It's also worth noting that the BLM protests were in response to a cop kneeling on a man's neck for 8 minutes, while he begged for relief, until he died. And any discussion of it has to account for the treatment black people receive at the hands of police and the criminal justice system generally.

The Capitol riot was in response to losing an election. And appears to have included a planned effort to capture and possibly harm or kill members of Congress.

Can we please get freaking real about this.

Bout time:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/1/12/2008636/-Pompeo-Cancels-Final-Europe-Trip-after-Luxembourg-Belgium-amp-NATO-Refuse-to-Meet-with-Him

Perhaps my snark about class was off the mark. In any case, their behavior was low class.

"They were business owners, CEOs, state legislators, police officers, active and retired service members, real-estate brokers, stay-at-home dads, and, I assume, some Proud Boys."
The Capitol Rioters Weren’t ‘Low Class’: The business owners, real-estate brokers, and service members who rioted acted not out of economic desperation, but out of their belief in their inviolable right to rule.

What I want to know is *what are you conservatives going to do about it*. That is my question.

I think you already answered it at the start of your comment, russell.
I hope I’m wrong, but if you’re expecting acknowledgment of the massive problem of what looks from the outside like incipient fascism, then I think you’ll mostly be disappointed.

Assuming the Senate votes to convict, it will be interesting to see whether Frum’s prediction “when this is all over, no one will admit to ever having supported it” (July 2019) holds true, or whether the Republican party splits between those wanting to quietly disappear the memory, and those wanting more of the same but better organised.

"It involved firearms, tasers, pipe bombs and molotov cocktails, and zip restraints. It involved attackers seeking out specific members of Congressional leadership as well as the VPOTUS. And it was intended to usurp the peaceful transfer of power. That is why it occurred when and where it did.

If the differences here are not apparent, then it's hardly worth discussing. "

This has become a pretty standard line. Essentially, "If you don't agree with me it is hardly worth discussing".

You start by saying they are both politically motivated violence and then, in a popular phrase, hand wave that away. The riots included molotov cocktails, destroying both public and private property and guns.

The target was different but people were injured.

The next comment says that you have to take into account the thing people were reacting to in the riots, but of course the thing people were reacting to in DC has been thoroughly disproved so you shouldn't take that into account.

There is always an excuse for left wing violence.

I haven't seen anyone here not denounce the attack on the Capitol, me most of all. But we didn't barely avoid becoming a dictatorship because we were "very lucky".

We avoided becoming a dictatorship because we have a stable democracy that can withstand a few hundred rioters, because we have a tiered policing system. That is more than capable of dealing with it and because in any worst case scenario we have 50 states that would temporarily appoint legislators to complete the peoples work.

Jesus I can't wait until the 20th.

I haven't seen anyone here not denounce the attack on the Capitol

I didn't seen anyone here not denounce looting and arson by rioters opposed to police killings either.

I have seen Marty say that Biden is "not my president", something he did not say when Trump was elected. So he might well reflect on how his president become a traitor.

My opinion is that our approach to protesters should not depend on our view of the justice of their cause. In a democracy, peaceful protest should be allowed, and policed as gently as possible. Violent protest should be disallowed, and policed firmly. Enablers of violent protest should be excluded from all positions of authority. And lawbreakers like Trump, however wealthy or powerful they may be, should go to jail.

Essentially, "If you don't agree with me it is hardly worth discussing".

Wrong.

If there is no common recognition of plain fact, then it's hardly worth discussing.

"A few hundred rioters", for example. Speaking of waving away.

Luck is when a physical attack and possible kidnap and/or assassination of Senate leadership is avoided by the wit and self-sacrifice of a single cop.

What we avoided was not dictatorship but chaos. What would have come out of that is anybody's guess.

In any case, by my lights you're the king of waving it away. And so I'm kind of done discussing it with you. We don't "disagree", as far as I can tell you are immune to recognizing things you don't wanna hear. I don't have time for it, so over and out, from me.

I'm sure somebody else will be happy to argue with you about it.

Just in case you were keeping track, here's Marty from this post
https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2020/06/back-to-the-salt-mines/comments/page/3/#comments


Where have you been russell? Wheres the burned and looted store from a right wing riot, people running down the street throwing things at cops?

Guns intimidate, sure they should leave them at home. But ain't none of them burned a store. Or bricked a cop. Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property. Or thrown a molotov cocktail.

One person ran over someone with their car, got arrested, in jail. Good for the cops that arrested him, hell let's defund them.

It's just simple, your side is a revolution, their side is treason. Your side should be understood, their side should be arrested.

My side just watched and shakes our head. WTF.

Posted by: Marty | June 23, 2020 at 02:12 PM

Let the contortions begin!!

Traitor Congress members who showed the insurrectionists the lay of the land.

Gee thats exactly what I said today, goid for me.

These cowards think nobody remembers.

today's favorite wingnut chewtoy is "CHAZ", the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. where protestors blocked off a few blocks in Seattle, demanding better founding for black neighborhoods.

this is just like trying to overturn a Presidential election because ... #handwaving

Marty might be the King of Waving It Away, but he's also the Duke of Missing the Point (on purpose?).

The point of BLM was not to riot, loot, and destroy things (though I personally don't mind the destruction of Confederate monuments). Yes, some people did riot, loot, and destroy things, and almost everyone here condemned that repeatedly to be completely clear about the distinction between peaceful protests and those other things.

As bobbyp pointed out earlier, millions of people protested racial injustice this year over the course of months. This is something McKinney seems to find fault with, that these things went on for so long. The way I see it, it only took a short time for the a**holes in DC to go sideways, which actually makes them worse. Millions of people protested over months, and the number of people who did anything criminal was a tiny percentage of those millions, and some of those people were "counter protesters" (boogaloo movement, anyone?).

Also, too, the only Nazis at the BLM protests were there to f**k with the protesters. If Nazis are part of your "protest," you might have to stop and think why that is.

The you in that last sentence was the general you, not Marty.

The FBI and U.S. Attorney in Washington D.C. say that hundreds of people will likely be charged in connection with the seige on Capitol Hill. Today FBI assistant director Steven D’Antuono and acting U.S. Attorney Michael Sherwin briefed the media. It’s the first news conference from a law enforcement agency since the siege on January 6th. The men said 170 cases are already open, with 70 suspects charged, and the Justice Department expects that number will grow into the hundreds. D’Antuono had this warning, “Even if you’ve left DC, agents from our local field offices will be knocking on your door if we found out that you were part of the criminal activity at the Capitol.” The AP writes:
The early misdemeanor charges against at least some of the rioters are effectively placeholder counts, but more serious counts — including sedition and conspiracy — are expected in violence that resulted in the deaths of five people, including a Capitol Police officer.

and the apologist tears will flow.

The GOP owns this.

Seriously, if you're really asking in good faith, spin up Google and try this:

You know, I don't recall questioning your good faith. I really don't. So I'm not sure why this is useful. Seems more like at bit of ad hominem. I would like to know if anyone knows whether, in the run up to the riot there was a spike in far right chatter. I'm sensing there was. The more I read, the more it appears this event, and perhaps more like it, was not simply a protest getting out of control.

Also, I noted above that the 1/6 riot was different in kind from the George Floyd riots because it was specifically targeted at upsetting or setting aside an election. So, no need to keep making that point.

If "no life" bothers you, then replace with "empty lives", "meaningless lives", "lives untethered to reality and in search of something to give their pitiful existence meaning." I really don't care nor do I think fussing over terms materially adds to the discussion.

With that said, I'm going to pick up with Nous' comments regarding his family sliding into some kind of right wing bubble post-Ferguson. Ferguson is an excellent foil for me to make my point.

Outside the lefty bubble, everyone who can read and who read the Obama Justice Department's investigation of the Michael Brown shooting knows that it was completely justifiable homicide. Which is why no charges were brought. Yet, BLM--founded by Marxists who gladly lie in aid of their cause--went with the "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" lie. Even today, most on the visible left (HSH, is this ok?) treat Brown's shooting as something nefarious.

So, BLM, founded on a lie and the ensuing riots were also founded on a lie. Why is this relevant and instructive?

Because, as I posed above, suppose the election had actually been stolen? Clearly it was not, but that doesn't mean people did not believe the opposite. Of course, they are idiots for believing in something that is demonstrably false. But, that being true, i.e. that the stolen election thing is total BS and people who believe otherwise are delusional or what have you, then the same must also be said for those who adhere to the Ferguson riots myth(s).

Moving on to the George Floyd riots and the issue of "waiving away". The property damage figure BP cited to is "paid insurance claims." Does anyone know what this means? I do. It means that if you had a business and if your agent got you "civil insurrection" coverage on your property policy (it usually has a "sub limit" that is way less that the total insured value), and if your property was burned down or otherwise destroyed, you get paid subject to deductibles, depreciation and repairs are limited to "like kind and quality" and, just to round out the picture, unless your agent persuaded you to purchase "code upgrade" coverage, you do not get paid for repairs that must meet current code requirements that we not in place at the time of original construction. This comes up every time on buildings more than 20 years old.

Your insurance is limited and even if you have "business interruption" coverage, it is almost always capped at 90 days of income less expenses.

Your insurance does not cover all of your other tangible and intangible losses, e.g. the loss of your business, your livelihood, the reason you get up in the morning.

So, talk about waiving away? Act as if the damage was capped at what insurance companies paid out. If 2 Billion was paid out, the likely number is multiples of that for lost future income, uninsured and underinsured property and the impossibility of rebuilding in the same location *not to mention* the depreciation in property values occasioned by being in a "riot zone."

I will try to link to an article that came out last week documenting, IIRC, 28 instances of visible lefties excusing, minimizing, justifying, etc the George Floyd riots. As is always the case, regardless of compass direction, punditry has its limits and overreaching is part of the game. But even with that caveat, it is documented, forex, that Kamala Harris and others in the Biden inner circle were raising bail money for rioters who were arrested.

Burning down your own neighborhood or someone else's neighborhood really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to a lot of people who, in fact, are not evil. All you're doing is hurting innocent people. Comprehending this doesn't seem like that much of a reach.

So, when Chris Cuomo, Kamala Harris and plenty of others soft pedal the kind of widespread wanton destruction--that's what it was and acting like it wasn't is a part of the visible left's disconnect with the rest of us--we saw after George Floyd was killed, a fair question is: can we trust those people to protect us if a riot comes to our neighborhood?

When a lot of those people are also screaming "Defund the police!", the answer to the question seems obvious. Either the visible left takes ownership of its own skewed issues when it comes to rioting, or it loses all credibility when lecturing conservatives on how they ought to think.

And anyone who thinks I'm waiving away or minimizing or what have you either isn't reading very carefully or is letting their own issues get in the way.

If, to pick up in Nigel's reference to incipient fascism, the far right wingers actually do organize and rebel, I will politically support the harshest repression necessary to bring it to an end, and that includes shooting back from my second story window.

I've called out my own. Now you do it.

McKinney, was everyone who was arrested during the protests actually a rioter? Do you think it's possible that overly aggressive policing swept up anyone unjustly for arrest?

You keep referring to the "George Floyd riots." I'm sure you realize that any sufficiently large event that disrupts the general order will attract people who want to cause various forms of trouble, whether or not they give a rat's hindquarters about the event's cause. I'm sure some wanted to break and burn stuff specifically because they were angry about racial injustice, just as I am sure some simply took the opportunity to break and burn stuff for the fun of it, just as looters took the opportunity to steal stuff.

Are the boogoloo bois who shot police officers in California and shot at the police headquarters in Minneapolis "George Floyd rioters"?

as soon as the President calls for overthrowing the results of his own failed re-election bid in the name of George Floyd, George Floyd will have a place in this discussion.

You know right away that when that old chestnut about "burning down their own neighborhoods" is trotted out that the conversation is pretty much over. It's like the Kerner Report never existed.

You know, I don't recall questioning your good faith. I really don't. So I'm not sure why this is useful. Seems more like at bit of ad hominem.

A fair point. My comment was unfair, and my apologies.

Sorry about that McK.

A couple of points, briefly.

BLM actually predates Ferguson and Michael Brown. If I'm not mistaken, it began showing up as a hash tag following Zimmerman's aquittal.

The situation in Ferguson, specifically, involves factors above and beyond the killing of Brown. Notably the overall relationship of the police to the community, and especially the para-military response to early protests. There was also the utterly callous treatment of Brown's body after his killing, and the... unusual choice of witnesses during the grand jury.

The riots of last summer were profoundly disturbing. The relationship of the people involved in actual rioting and violence to people who were there for BLM, specifically, is not so direct.

There are groups on 'the left' who actually are on the left - anti-capitalist black bloc anarchists and similar - and some of them are violent, mostly in form of property destruction as a political statement. They tend to show up at pretty much any and every public demonstration. They've been at almost every public demonstration I've participated in over the last 10 or 20 years, and they're basically just there to hitch a ride on the larger event and, in general, make trouble.

I don't support them, in fact I wish they'd grow up and go the hell away. They do nothing useful or constructive. I think the number of people who do support them is vanishingly small. The number of people who support them is, basically, them.

And, there are people who were there for BLM who engaged in violence, because they were just freaking pissed off.

And there are also a lot of people who went to the BLM events because it seemed like a big carnival and just fucking rioted and looted.

I don't support any of that. People shouldn't destroy other people's stuff. Period.

Something like 15 to 25 *million* people participated in BLM events over the past year. All kinds of people, from pretty much any and every political, social and economic background.

BLM is overwhelmingly non-violent, as a 'movement'. I put that in quotes because it has no particular command structure, it's just people who want cops to stop shooting black people so often. My church has a BLM banner out front, I doubt anybody in my community has ever met or spoken with an 'official' member of a BLM organization.

I'm not saying any of this to excuse violent behavior, I'm saying it to provide context, so that when we discuss the events of the last year, we're discussing them accurately and with some knowledge.

'Defund the police' is, IMO, just dumb. There is a useful point being made there, by some people, but the choice of language just pisses everybody off without accomplishing anything useful.

All my opinion.

A couple of points, briefly.

LOL.

Allow me to retract the 'briefly' part....

Speaking of hitching a ride, I'll hitch a ride on russell's 10:54 AM. I agree with every word of it.

BLM actually predates Ferguson and Michael Brown. If I'm not mistaken, it began showing up as a hash tag following Zimmerman's aquittal.

True. Also the three black women activists credited with its founding are not "Marxists" (I liked that capital M, nice touch!).

Regardless if the Michael Brown incident was "a lie" the municipal and institution oppression of the black community in Ferguson, Mo., was manifestly not a lie. The claim that the recent presidential election was "stolen" is also a lie...the oppression of the white community...well, um, not so much.

There is a big difference, and I for one, don't see much need for "the left" to apologize for whatever bee is in McKinney's bonnet.

And as brought to his attention repeatedly, what do the BLM protests have to do with the issue at hand?

Sorry about that McK.

De nada. It's not like we are discussing a 37 vs 39.6 marginal tax rate. The topic at hand has everyone feeling a little off.

I'm going to put away my keyboard for a while and try to pay more attention to what's going on. My closing comment is this: heads have been exploding left and right since 2000. Maybe even before, but that's kind of where I put it without having done an exhaustive analysis. The vast majority of the noise has been, IMO, driven by the 24 hour news cycle where the dueling sides go from "crisis" to "crisis", and much like the little boy who cried wolf, there is a lot less "there" there. In that vein, I've been hearing about incipient far right revolution or terrorism for years, particularly since 2016. To me it's seemed overblown and it seemed that way to me right up until last Wednesday.

Now, people who normally don't have right wing extremism on auto text are raising some very disturbing questions. If I didn't mention that my crystal ball is imperfect, I will reiterate that point: I frequently get the specifics wrong when forecasting discrete events. If the RW bomb throwers rise up on 1/20, whatever body count they sustain is fine with me. If this all fizzles out and last Wednesday was their best shot, even better. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. And, go ahead and let the police wear their helmets and Kevlar. Let them have bullet proof anti-riot vehicles. It looks menacing and it is menacing. It's supposed to be.

DT has taken on a lot of water since last Wednesday. That is all to the good for principled conservatism.

I'm probably out for a while. I regret that. The exchange has been, for me at least, as pleasant as a topic like this can be and very informative. I've got a lot to think about.

Thanks all.

wrs, but... whatabout accomplished.

Thanks all.

Good talking with you McK. See you on the flipside!!

whatabout accomplished.

"why is this different than that?" seems like a not-unreasonable question, to me. So, sometimes "whatabout" can be constructive. It depends on whether the intent is to understand, or deflect.

All I ask is that people actually be open to an answer. Or at least a discussion of the facts.

And, go ahead and let the police wear their helmets and Kevlar. Let them have bullet proof anti-riot vehicles. It looks menacing and it is menacing. It's supposed to be.

Yes, when used sparingly when appropriate, not as a matter of everyday policing. And even if the mob happens to be left-oriented, so long as it actually is a mob and not being called one only as an excuse.

Either way, beauty queen Pence has been fully "grabbed" by Trump for every second of the past four-plus years.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-trump-told-pence-he-could-go-down-in-history-as-a-patriot-or-a-pussy

Pence thinks it was God who had him by his p*ssy all this time, mistaking the crushing trump vice-grip on his boys (shaking hands with the unemployed) for fake grifting bullshit Grace.

It is now being "reported" that a Dem rep and a family member who barricaded in their offices during the murderous siege of the US Capitol frantically tried to activate the security panic button, one of which is installed in every Senators' and Reps' offices, but it had been ripped out, the entire unit.

https://twitter.com/EoinHiggins_/status/1349232278636011520

Somehow, I think, the term "esteemed colleague" used to address the other side of the aisle (which should be called the DMZ) in Congress is going to go the way of bipartisan congressional family interactions, bipartisan retreats, and other long-standing norms purposefully destroyed by scum subhuman death skull Gingrich and his f*cks nearly 30 years ago, as preparation for 1/6 infamy.

If it's learned that the insurrectionists and their inside job coup sponsors were directed to execute/injure Dem officials and their staffs and families that were present in the Capitol "as if they were Michael Brown", it's not going to make one bit of difference whether Brown was shot down in self-defense (which he was, as I conceded here once the Obama investigation report was released those millions of years ago, which of course gave no shelter to the many other unjustifiably citizens gunned down before and since) though it always amazes me when gummint-skeptical conservatives treat government conclusions as gospel, or not, as their druthers might be regarding what should be defunded or not).

So, besides repeating that we ain't seen nuthin yet, we also know hardly anything yet regarding the depth of criminal complicity and conspiracy of the Trump conservative movement deep state in this travesty, the attempted overthrow of the US Government and a Presidential election AND the murders that occurred and the ones that were averted by the mere luck of unprepared quick thinking by some decent people, not that there status as government employees will ever be held in any esteem whatsoever by the usual suspects.

It's getting better all the ti i mme.

It can't get no worse.

What we are going to learn about the "worse" is going to blow our socks off, for the mere failure of imagination on all of our parts to suss out who these vermin truly are.

I'm going to predict that like the commission reports on the Kennedy assassination and 9/11, huge chunks of the evidence, findings, and conclusions regarding 1/6 will be classified and blacked out, because no one, is going to be able to handle (least of all this entity called a "country") the entire ugly malignant truth and nuthin but.

We'll get plenty of pablum about healing and so f*cking forth, including from those evil ones who are not apprehended but will go right back to work to kill my government.

The upside of course is that we shall have decades of rueful speculation on political blogs ahead of us to tear each other new ones.

"their"

One thing I don't think we've really discussed much is how riots and protests relate to each other in terms of timing and how integral the rioting is to the protesting. The trend I observed during the summer protests was that most of the criminality occurred toward the end of or after the height of the protests. (What violence did occur during the protests was often precipitated by police deciding to intervene unnecessarily or by counter protesters looking to punch some hippies.)

The worst stuff happened after most of the protesters (often including families with young kids in tow) had left. And there were plenty of smaller marches in towns across the country during and after which nothing bad at all happened. One such march happened about a mile and half from my house. My whole family would have been there but for another obligation. We don't riot.

The Capitol riot was more or less indistinguishable from the protest. It was kind of the point of the whole thing for many of the people there, including the organizers.

Commission a memorial statue of this tableau and erect it next to the Iwo Jima memorial.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/national-guard-sleep-capitol-hallways-house-vote-trump-impeachment

The Capitol riot was more or less indistinguishable from the protest. It was kind of the point of the whole thing for many of the people there, including the organizers.

yep.

and don't forget the instigators.

the attempted coup was encouraged by the President, his family, several Senators, countless representatives, and nearly the entire right wing mediasphere.

this was a top-down event.

the summer riots were entirely bottom-up.

Why, indeed?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/how-remove-danger-period-american-law/617651/

Goes without saying, but it's too bad it must be said again and again:

https://twitter.com/AttorneyCrump/status/1349109130754203655

I do enjoy it when coup planners and wanna-be assassins record the evidence with which their tribunals will f*cking hang them.

I guess that serves efficiency in government.

https://twitter.com/cm_merlin/status/1349252219242237952

One difference between murderous Michael Brown and these murderous revolutionaries is that Brown had no plan or schematic in his addled mind regarding his actions that fateful day, least of all one communicated to him by President Obama and Democratic politicians in Congress.

A lady with a deft turn of phrase.
https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/1349330454902673409

WATCH: Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.) says majority of GOP "paralyzed with fear" @RepJasonCrow: "I had a lot of conversations with my Republican colleagues. … A couple of them broke down in tears … saying that they are afraid for their lives if they vote for this impeachment." pic.twitter.com/ESEu40WW1P

— Meet the Press (@MeetThePress) January 13, 2021

It was written:

"That is all to the good for principled conservatism.

You mean, the hostages, don't you, after they are deprogrammed of their Stockholm Syndrome trances. In the 19th century, various invading white settlers in Texas were kidnapped by Comanche, and if not murdered, adopted by Comanche warriors.

Those that were repatriated found the going tough, even dying soon after, while some refused to return to their families and society.

If principled conservatism comes out of this debacle still attempting to abolish Obamacare, Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare, and treat immigrants like garbage and our allies like enemies, and so on and on, I'm going to suspect they are still too far gone Comanche-wise to re-adapt to a civilized polity.

And heck, the original Comanche at least had a point in their travails.

None of us have wiped out conservative movement bison herds, though if we view Citizens United as the financing food source for the coup-supporting conservative movement's installed political infrastructure, maybe we should give that a second look as a way nipping this shit in the bud.


chatter.

I'm guessing the damage done to our democratic institutions last week will total up to something like $5 Trillion, but that assumes you can put a dollar value on things like "democracy".

Prove me wrong!

My Congresscritter, Pramala Jayapal, has been infected with COVID due to the crowded conditions as the People's Representatives hid in fear for their lives, and GOP members (also in hiding for some reason) deigned to put on masks in order to show their political correctness (the kind of theatrical political dedication that would make chairman Mao happy).

Shame on you, GOP.

It's generally foolish to assume that McConnell will "do the right thing." But it's beginning to look like he just might.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/13/how-mitch-mcconnell-could-do-maximum-damage-trump-right-now/

Not because it's the right thing to do, of course. (You can only use "McConnell" and "moral compass" in the same sentence if it also includes "complete lack of".) But he seems to be coming around to the idea that it would be to his political advantage. If he gets there, Trump is toast in jig time.

bobbyp, they did not deign to put on masks. They refused to put on masks, thus potentially making an insurrection by DJT (and their) supporters a superspreader event.

Way to go! Two birds with one stone.

It's generally foolish to assume that McConnell will "do the right thing." But it's beginning to look like he just might.

Perhaps not.

Perhaps not.

"Not" was always the safe bet. But that we've even gotten to perhaps is a big step. A week ago, it would have been unimaginable. By next week? Who knows.

wj, this seemed to me a good example of your optimism at work, although you quite correctly cover yourself by impugning his motives. However, although I'd love to be wrong, it does look as if "McConnell" and "do the right thing" are still mutually exclusive. (Although I suppose, and I say this reluctantly, by supporting going back in and confirming the electors' votes in the Senate on the 6th, that was the right thing. Possibly (likely) self-interest of course.)

"chatter"

After four years of observing and trying to read trump, there was something, vague and inchoate as the impressions might be, about his demeanor the last three weeks.

There was this air of dead certainty about him, like he knew something, like something was up his sleeve. He KNEW something was coming that would give him the stolen election.

I repeat "you ain't seen nuthin yet". It's written all over his face.

The fix was in.

It made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and prickle.

Two other Dem reps have also tested positive for the virus since the coup.

At least one is a cancer survivor and none are spring chickens.

It's attempted murder, just like all the rest of the human beings in this country have been infected on purpose by conservative movement actors, including, among the latter, trump himself.

If they were lepers, they would wear their picked scabs and running sores like a stigmata and rub themselves against us.

We've no idea of what we're dealing with.

This is Jim Jones level psychotic murder.

Thanks, GFTNC. Obviously, the word "deign" is not one I use with any regularity. I was also going to gratuitously mention "intersectionality" and "cis" just to confuse/poke at McKinney, but was a bit hesitant, as I don't know what those words mean either. But I hear they are bad, bad, bad....

:)

They are all Michael Brown now:

As an aside, Russ Fulcher was the most aggressive member pushing through the metal detectors last night.

A female officer kind of got in his way—I think inadvertently—and he really was...assertive.

The cop didn’t want to talk, but she almost seemed on the verge of tears after.
Show this thread
Matt Fuller
@MEPFuller
·
2h
Rep. Bill Huizenga walks through the metal detector. He sets it off and keeps walking.
Matt Fuller
@MEPFuller
·
2h
Rep. Alex Mooney walks through the metal detectors while talking on the phone.

He extends his hand as if to say, ‘I’m on the phone,’ and just walks onto the floor.
Matt Fuller
@MEPFuller
·
2h
Rep. Paul Gosar waits in line for the metal detector.

He walks through, sets off the machine, and then just keeps going.
Matt Fuller
@

Rep. Virginia Foxx sets off the metal detectors and keeps walking to the floor.

“Good morning, guys,” Foxx says as she passes through.
Matt Fuller
@MEPFuller
·
2h
Rep. Louie Gohmert sidesteps the magnetometer, shaking his head and waving off the police.
Matt Fuller
@MEPFuller
·
2h
Rep. Jeff Duncan sidesteps the magnetometer.
Matt Fuller
@MEPFuller
·
2h
Rep. Markwayne Mullin sidesteps the metal detectors.
Matt Fuller
@MEPFuller
·
2h
Rep. Garret Graves sidesteps the metal detectors.
Matt Fuller
@MEPFuller
·
2h
Rep. Bob Latta sets off the metal detector and walks right past the cops.

This system has been rendered meaningless.
Matt Fuller
@MEPFuller
·
2h
And Chip Roy sidesteps the magnetometer.

We aren't going to need a commission.

Just aim and fire.

it's all theater to the seditious Republican caucus, and their sponge-brained base.

I was also going to gratuitously mention "intersectionality" and "cis" just to confuse/poke at McKinney......I hear they are bad, bad, bad....

LOL, bobbyp. And please note how I took the opportunity to sneak an "impugn" in there.

This is where Trumpism gets you.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-supporter-dead-suspected-suicide-172004838.html

I'm reminded of something I was thinking earlier about how in over their head's some of these people are going to find themselves. I don't want this to be taken as making light of the suicide reported at the link in my last comment, so don't take it that way.

Given the statements from the Justice Department about the number of cases they're pursuing and the aggressiveness with which they intend to pursue them, very serious consequences are going to come from what appeared to be considered a fun bit of mischief by many of the participants. "Hey, look at me being crazy inside the Capitol! What a goof!" seemed to be the attitude.

Something I've quoted (possibly misquoted) many times from Mike Tyson - everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. A whole bunch of people are going to get punched in the mouth over this, and their plans will be cancelled.

All, of course, as it should be if Justice moves as they've said they will.

strike that apostrophe, dammit!

The image of a man wearing a black hoodie with the words "Camp Auschwitz" emblazoned in white letters rinside the U.S. Capitol building was circulated widely on social media.

Packer has a lengthy criminal record in the area and has been arrested in Newport News "well over a dozen times," Newport News Sheriff Gabriel Morgan told ABC News.

Previous offenses included assault and battery, driving under the influence, drunk in public, driving under revocation, and probation violation, among others, Morgan said. Packer was last jailed in the county in 2012.

Packer faces charges of unlawful entry into the U.S. Capitol and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds, according to an arrest warrant filed in Virginia federal court.

He was being held at the Western Tidewater Regional Jail and is expected to appear in federal court in Norfolk, Virginia, Wednesday afternoon.

enjoy your upcoming stay at Camp FCI Petersburg!

Obviously, the word "deign" is not one I use with any regularity

"Deign" comes from the same root as "dignify". It's the opposite of "disdain", which is spelt quite differently because Samuel Johnson in about 1750 lost the thread.

Not sure if any previous links cover this, but, if there's anything to this, these people should be getting punched in the mouth along with everybody else. Bye, bye, plans.

https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/13/956426253/rep-tim-ryan-probe-under-way-on-whether-members-gave-capitol-tours-to-rioters

The "look over there..." line thrust upon us by some Texas lawyer above is being spouted by just about every GOP speaker in the current House debate rising to oppose the motion to impeach. It's like, "Izz'at all you got?"

Interesting tidbit: GOP stalwart from Sunnyside, WA, Dan Newhouse, rose to speak in favor of impeachment. Good on him. So too for Jaime Herrera Beutler. Good on her. Looks like Cathy McMorris Rodgers hewed to the party line. Boo. Hiss.

"Phone numbers belonging to two of Sen. Ted Cruz’s (R-TX) offices appeared to be listed as contact information in a note found in a truck belonging to Lonnie Coffman, who has been indicted for allegedly carrying unregistered firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails in that same vehicle during the pro-Trump insurrection last week. New court documents that include photos of the truck and the items found inside the vehicle show a Motel 6 magazine with “Senator Ted Cruz” handwritten on the back next to two phone numbers. When called by TPM, the numbers connect to Cruz’s offices in D.C. and Central Texas."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/dont-impeach-trump-treat-him-like-a-civil-war-traitor/ar-BB1cH4C0

Oh Lord, Lordy, the commie libs are turning our children against us:

https://abc7.com/politics/teen-turns-in-her-own-family-as-capitol-rioters/9621723/

Cover their eyes. They must not see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uSz0mEtEsQ

This is absolutely right about many, many, many people:

https://digbysblog.net/2021/01/better-late-than-seriouslywho-needs-them/

I wonder who.

Our military must be purged, and these bad actors defunded.

I know a Navy Seal.

He's a punk.

He believes all of this crap.

I'm polite when I'm around him.

He's a trained killer.

very serious consequences are going to come from what appeared to be considered a fun bit of mischief by many of the participants.

Reality TV mindset meets reality. Not gonna be pretty for the deluded. But nothing else seems to have gotten thru to them.

Cite to go with that.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/1/13/2008792/--HOOYAH-Deadly-attack-on-Capitol-has-retired-Navy-warfare-operator-all-but-jumping-for-joy

Oh Lord, Lordy, the commie libs are turning our children against us

Seems a bit of a stretch to essentially disown your kid for being who she is. And then complain that someone else turned her against you.**

** Yeah, I do realize that this JDT, and not necessarily the parents' complaint. Although he's right that it is likely to be.

Remember all those Dem Congresscritters who shit their pants in fear for their life when voting against the impeachment of Bill Clinton? You might have missed it.

But both sides.

the commie libs are turning our children against us

safety tip: don't try to take a special forces cop's phone away from them.

just saying.

The president is impeached.

Humans learn Evil:

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2021/01/why-did-trust-in-government-plummet-the-answer-below/

They either unlearn it and the teacher abolished or down will the direction forever.

Let this be precedent for carrying out the executions of the 1/6 traitors:

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/the-closing-bloodbath

Edsall, who has been sounding the warning about rump and company for a long time:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/opinion/capitol-riot-white-grievance.html

"The President is impeached"

195 nays by the subhumans.

Once again, future Presidents will feel free to receive oral sex in the Oval Office and lie about it.

better-late-than-seriouslywho-needs-them/

anyone-who-wants-him-removed-needs-them

Merry Christmas:

https://www.barrons.com/news/russia-probes-circus-over-monkey-goats-in-nazi-garb-01610530807

195 nays by the subhumans.

Self-identified irredeemables. (A major step lower than mere "deplorables". ;-)

Fun fact (HT New Yorker) https://twitter.com/NPRinskeep/status/1349469455802314754

Fun fact

that's pretty saucy for an NPR guy!

195 nays by the subhumans.

and you shall know them by the trail of nays.

I always knew He, Trump would achieve the unprecedented accomplishment of being impeached twice, but I never thought it would be in just one term.

Any GOP blather about "coming together" must be preceded by this statement:

"Biden in 2020 won just as big a landslide, and won it just as fairly, as Trump in 2016."

Anybody has the right to NOT say those words, of course. Just like anybody has the right to NOT say "The Earth is round and revolves around the Sun." But not the right to be taken seriously for not saying them.

--TP


Remember all those Dem Congresscritters who shit their pants in fear for their life when voting against the impeachment of Bill Clinton? You might have missed it.

Exactly. God those Dems are hypocritical, unprincipled goons at the mercy of their constituency of killer commies. They're prepared to vote against impeaching Bill Clinton for lying about a blowjob, but want to impeach DJT for trying to withold already-authorised aid to an ally unless he accedes to blackmail to frame DJT's rival's son, for trying to get elected officials to "fix" an election for him, and for inciting insurrection and an attempted coup.

What a bunch of hypocritical wusses.

And, on nooneithinkisinmytree (thank you for selecting an even more annoying-to-type handle than mine)'s link to digby, I completely agree.

I only wish the piece wasn't headed by a picture of Rowan Atkinson, who although his role of Blackadder in every period is a masterpiece, and he was a masterly stand-up (I saw one of his very earliest gigs),and a good actor even at the beginning - I saw his performance in The Dog Beneath the Skin directed by a friend of mine when they were both undergraduates at Oxford, nonetheless I feel very torn about him (and not just because of Mister Bean). I recently have had it on firsthand authority that he is a fairly extreme rightwing arsehole. And his brother might be worse. Ah well, in a reversal of the title of that early homo-erotic film starring a memorable Dirk Bogarde playing a Mexican bandit called Anacleto, (who, as I recall, recants on his deathbed because of his "admiration" for the local priest) in this case it will have to be The Song, not the Singer.

(I hope this is not as incomprehensible to you lot as it now seems to me, but I'm not going to redo it!)

"Biden in 2020 won just as big a landslide, and won it just as fairly, as Trump in 2016."

Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?

so should we start the Biden investigations now?

Got any indication of Biden publicly asking a foreign country to help him win? That's a great place to start . . . if you do.

Have just found the whole film of The Singer not the Song on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsh_IqEC7mY

If you are interested, go to 2.08.00, Anacleto does not recant, but it is a good, romantic ending. I cannot emphasise enough what an impression this film (Bogarde really) made on the young GftNC who was entirely unaware of the gay undercurrent.

I didn't realize that:
The 10 Republicans joining the vote to impeach Trump makes it the most bipartisan impeachment vote in history.

Marty, I believe the Biden investigations have already taken place, and have come up with zero evidence (as opposed to the "non-zero number" of R observers one of the R attorneys was forced to admit to a judge were actually present at one of the disputed counts) in every case, as attested by a Trump-loyal AG, the FBI, the courts and everybody else.

The Trump investigations, on the other hand, regarding illicit foreign interference in his 2016 election, as wj says, have been found by every organ of the US intelligence community and legal community to be heavily substantiated. Only these same "principled" R legislators have prevented the findings being acted upon.

The 10 Republicans joining the vote to impeach Trump makes it the most bipartisan impeachment vote in history.

Many records. DJT holds the record for presidential impeachments: half of all of them. He's a winner!

Too much GftNC on this thread! I've had a long, tiring day, and am off to bed. Good night, all.

Marty: Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?

Depends. Are we done with Hillary yet?

Can we do it after we see He, Trump's tax returns?

Should we investigate how Obama "killed a Supreme" while we're at it?

--TP

Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?

Nah. Jimmy Carter is the real monster, and he's still hanging around, spreading his liberal filth at home-building workshop commie fronts. Get him on the stand and sweat him mercilessly about Bert Lance.

In bed, but have only just seen cleek's answer to the Digby link I liked. I agree with cleek too! So sue me (and you know what F Scott Fitzgerald said about the ability to hold two conflicting opinions simultaneously). Niels Bohr said something interesting too, if I recall correctly, about how you could tell if something was a "profound truth" because its opposite was also a profound truth. Not that I'm claiming that applies to Digby v cleek, of course. I'm just out of my brains exhausted and free-associating interesting (to me) stuff. Apologies, and GOOD NIGHT!

I think that blocking a freeway is foolish and arrogant and counterproductive. I think that when a person who has experienced racism loses control of his or her emotions and breaks things , starts fires etc, it is understandable but still illegal and I would expect prosecutions I think that when young white men broke windows set fires etc they were showing entitlement, and exploiting other peoples; pain for their own self-aggrandizement FWIW I think Portland did a lousy jog of law enforcement. I figured the violence would harm the election chances of Dems.

However what Trump did isn't just different in degree; it's different in kind. It started with a lie. That lie might not have had so much power if Republicans hadn't been propagandizing their base with vicious lies about the rest of American for decades. The Republican media, the Republican party leadership and most of the Republican politicians share the responsibility for the decision to make defamation slander and lies the major content of their discourse. They share the responsibility for creating a radicalized angry base that believe any shit they hear on Faux.

And the riots target whoever was handy, mostly business. I am not justifying that. It was cruel and selfish and stupid. But the Republican party has aimed itself at representative government. The party is already responsible for voter suppression, gerrymandering and court packing for the purpose of denying representation to other AMericans, Trump's efforts to over turn the election are an extension of that attack on representative democracy itself.

So no wonder most Republican politicians are still supporting him. It was the party of authoritarianism before Trump; He just made their contempt for the principles of representative government more obvious.

“ I think that blocking a freeway is foolish and arrogant and counterproductive.”

Yup. Such as when Trump supporters blocked Joe abide s bus on the highway while threatening him!

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