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January 20, 2021

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Apologies for not getting this up in time for the actual Inauguration.

Anteing up for the next coup:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jan/19/two-fox-news-executives-involved-in-election-night-arizona-call-are-out?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1

let the chorus of disappointment commence.

No more tRump approval/disapproval-ratings graph on FiveThirtyEight. I've already been freed from one obsession.

Humorous aside, I saw a headline about tRump pardoning Bannon, and I read it as Barron, thinking he pardoned his 14-year-old son. I couldn't imagine what he would need to be pardoned for.

I watched Biden's inaugural address in real time, and just watched it again. I continue to be struck by how fortunate we are to have him in that office, at this time.

Biden is, by all appearances, a decent and sincere person. He doesn't indulge in partisan animus or culture war BS. He has the background, history, and relationships to know what the job is, how the place works, and how to be effective in practical terms.

But mostly, he appears to be a genuinely decent human being.

That is about as good as it is likely to get, for us, now.

We've been handed a gift. I hope we make the most of it.

I completely agree with this.

I happened to be in my car when Lady Gaga sang the national anthem (had to do a task this morning, unfortunately). But when I passed the federal courthouse with the Stars and Stripes waving there in front, I almost had to pull over. I'm filled with hope, joy and optimism for all of us.

Just listened to "A Change Is Gonna Come" posted by Laura on the other thread. Thanks to everybody who posted links over there! We can do this.

I'll have another:

https://barefeetinthekitchen.com/best-ham-sandwich-recipe/

I liked the poem.

ham sandwich works for me.

The inaugural was both reassuringly dull, and at the same time rather good.

I think the ham sandwich will exceed expectations substantially.

I'm not claiming that this ham sandwich is likely to be as good to eat as the one @04.36, but you should know that people here have been watching it to soothe their nerves. The man making the sandwich is a famous Irish sports commentator:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPB6LTWThH4&ab_channel=IrishTimes

I thought Gaga was great. And I was very moved by Kamala Harris. A huge sigh of relief is being breathed around (most of) the world.

The key to a good ham sandwich is the spicy brown mustard.

Make of that what you will.

Beats overcooked turkey.

Turn the page? Uhmkay...

But let's leave a bookmark behind, so we can easily refer back to the MAGAt Uprising, the Cruz-Hawley Circus, the McConnell Masquerade, and the Transition Intransigence.

Biden will have his hands full trying to beat Covid and revive The Economy while mending alliances abroad, for a while. So Biden needs our help for the clean-up in aisle MAGA.

In particular, we need to make clear to the MAGAts in our midst that the Earth is round, water flows downhill, and He, Trump lost the election -- and that people who doubt any of those things will have a hard time convincing us to take their "policy" positions seriously.

--TP

that people who doubt any of those things will have a hard time convincing us to take their "policy" positions seriously.

But you gotta admit, if someone refuses to admit that Trump lost, what that makes abundantly clear is that they reject reality. And, therefore, their policy proposals probably do as well -- and should be distained accordingly.

As I've become an oldster, I find that winter SAD affects me more. This year was even worse because of the stress of buying a house, moving, and selling a house. But the days are already enough longer to be making a difference.

You need a better latitude, Michael Cain.

I've been sort of bouncy and happy all day. Not too much news watching, just doing the usual which for me means caring for cats at a sanctuary and doing some planting in the greenbelt--but happier. Then I checked the news and found out that Joe restored Bears Ears and Escalante/Staircase National Monuments. And that's when I started crying. II guess we all have different things that trigger us. And there were sooooo many things Trump did. But when he attacked Southern Utah he was desecrating the holy land.

So when Biden got to the part of his speech today where he says:

"I ask every American to join me in this cause.Uniting to fight the common foes we face: anger, resentment, hatred, extremism, lawlessness, violence, disease, joblessness, hopelessness."

In my head I kept expecting Zack de la Rocha from Rage Against the Machine to pop up and start shouting "All of which are American dreams! All of which are American dreams! All of which..."

Good day, despite this omission.

You need a better latitude, Michael Cain.

:^)

Life is complicated. We do the best we can. There are a small number of places that meet the altitude/latitude combination that I would pick. Ain't none of them that put my wife with mild early dementia close to her granddaughters.

As I've said for decades in response to people's mindless, "How are you?" "Overall, quite well. If you want to hear me whine, I have a list."

Interesting stuff. I wondered if I would go to sleep and wake up and it was 2015 and this was all a bad dream. A national Who shot JR moment. Unfortunately, didn't happen.

Nous talking about what music, I'm wanting to write a inauguration version of the libretto of the high excutioner in the Mikado.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWo_3CIcTBQ

Lots got done today.

Now, to purge and destroy the Trump Deep State.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/20/biden-pentagon-transition-460768

As publicly as possible.

Examples. Effigies.

Loving the sandwich:

Former GOP operative Michael Ellis placed on administrative leave from NSA top lawyer job

Biden must conduct a ruthless bringing together of the country:

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/transitional-rot

By which I mean, only among those of goodwill.

The rest can rot.

Joe restored Bears Ears and Escalante/Staircase National Monuments

The man gave a speech, and then went to work. And got stuff done.

Here's his first day.

And it was kind of a half day, because for the first half of the day, he was... busy.

I'm sure we'll all find a thousand things to complain about before the Biden years are done. But I really can't overstate how pleased and relieved I am to have somebody in the office who seems interested in serving somebody other than himself.

It's freaking great.

Good night, all.

My (Internet) friends,

Aahhh... today was a good day.

I was fortunate to attend a fund raiser for Barbara Boxer's last Senate run and Joe Biden (at the time VP) was there. I was toward the end of the line and after shaking his hand I told him that my mother had great respect for him and now (after hearing him speak) I understood why.

He immediately picked up on the fact that she was gone and asked me about her. This man is a mensch (as others have observed).

Michael Cain: you have a difficult balancing act - many sympathies to you.

Biden first day: hallelujah. And a mensch is exactly what he is.

Since it's an open thread, I found this interesting:

A new Malcolm X biography - what a life.

https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/the-dead-are-arising-les-payne-tamara-payne-book-review/

Sorry, I thought it wasn't paywalled (I'm a subscriber) - anyway, seems like great book.

I do not feel anybody in their right mind would reasonably call Ezra Klein a wild eyed radical, but speaking for myself, a wild eyed radical, I am on board with this.

Not sure why radicals get termed "wild eyed".

It's the unionized radicals you have to watch out for: once they become ionized they're even MORE radical.

√wildeye

Yes, bobbyp, it certainly makes sense to me.

On a different note, and despite many people here having an ambivalent attitude (or worse) towards Anne Applebaum, I thought this a worthwhile approach, despite her grudging acceptance of the McKinney attitude towards McConnell (least said by me the better).

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/seditionists-need-path-back-society/617746/

There's a lot in it that's worthwhile, but you really need to read the whole thing (it's not long). She does talk about Colombia and the FARC, and the psychologists who deal with exit-counselling for people exiting cults. I chose this extract, but it was hard.

Outside politics, outside the law, outside the norms—the seditionists have in fact declared their independence from the rest of us. January 6 was indeed their 1776: They declared that they want to live in a different America from the one the rest of us inhabit, ruled over by a different president chosen according to a different rule book. And yet they cannot be wished away, or sent away, or somehow locked up. They will not leave of their own accord, and Americans who accept Biden’s lawful victory won’t either. We have no choice except to coexist.

But how? Clearly we need regulation of social media, but that’s years away. Of course we need better education, but that doesn’t help us deal with the armed men who were standing outside the Ohio statehouse this week.

Here’s another idea: Drop the argument and change the subject. That’s the counterintuitive advice you will hear from people who have studied Northern Ireland before the 1998 peace deal, or Liberia, or South Africa, or Timor-Leste—countries where political opponents have seen each other as not just wrong, but evil; countries where people are genuinely frightened when the other side takes power; countries where not all arguments can be solved and not all differences can be bridged. In the years before and after the peace settlement in Northern Ireland, for example, many “peacebuilding” projects did not try to make Catholics and Protestants hold civilized debates about politics, or talk about politics at all. Instead, they built community centers, put up Christmas lights, and organized job training for young people.

This was not accidental. The literature in the fields of peacebuilding and conflict prevention overflows with words such as local and community-based and economic regeneration. It’s built on the idea that people should do something constructive—something that benefits everybody, lessens inequality, and makes people work alongside people they hate. That doesn’t mean they will then get to like one another, just that they are less likely to kill one another on the following day.

Drop the argument and change the subject.

that's the vibe i'm getting from Biden.

no, there's not going to be any steel-fisted reckoning from Biden. Biden is going to try to gently lead the country, as one, to a better place. and that will be enough to lead people away from the GOP mythology.

hope he's right.

hope he's right.

Me too. Whatever works is fine by me. And by "works" I mean a) ends voter suppression and inbuilt one-party advantage, b) helps income and health inequality, c) improves equality before the law, and d) defangs populist, authoritarian, anti-democratic movements in the population at large. Getting even or jailing the bums is secondary. Eyes on the prize(s).

"They declared that they want to live in a different America from the one the rest of us inhabit, ruled over by a different president chosen according to a different rule book"

I thought it valuable to ask, who is the rest of us? Yesterday federal troops were forced to tear gas antifa "protestors". Not right wing protestors. The money quote from here https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/21/us/protests-portland-seattle-biden.html

"We are ungovernable."

Drop the argument and change the subject.

And the last line from bobbyp's link: "Just help people, and do it fast."

I think Trump needs to be held to account. However, for the moment, an impeachment trial where the penalties are limited to disqualification from ever holding office again (well, that and the reality of being convicted) might be good. Not least because assurances that he won't get hammered with the other possible penalties (e.g. the loss of his pension) might get a couple more critical votes on board for conviction.

Let the various states convict him of some of the many charges he faces. Let his creditors bankrupt him (for real this time) when his loans come due. But save the Federal charges for his accomplices. And save the Federal government bandwidth for repairing the damages.

It's not as emotionally satisfying as throwing the book at him. Certainly not for me. But it may be the pragmatic approach.

Yesterday federal troops were forced to tear gas antifa "protestors".

You can call them rioters, even if they're on my "side." (Scare quote battle!)

whatabbout!

https://www.thedailybeast.com/worse-than-we-imagined-team-trump-left-biden-a-covid-19-nightmare?ref=home

“What we’re inheriting from the Trump administration is so much worse than we could have imagined,” Jeff Zients, the Biden administration’s COVID-19 czar, said in a call with reporters Wednesday. “We don't have the visibility that we would hope to have into supply and allocations.”

“I think we have to level-set expectations,” added Tom Frieden, the former director for the Centers for Disease Control in the Obama administration. “There are lots of things that an incoming administration can do on Day One, including speaking honestly about the pandemic.”

The new administration is already behind, in part because the Trump administration was unprecedentedly hostile during the transition. The question now, however, is how Biden can get a handle on a raging pandemic when his team is already so far behind.

The new administration is already behind...

The question now, however, is how Biden can get a handle on a raging pandemic when his team is already so far behind.

and just like that, the blame has shifted.

I thought it valuable to ask, who is the rest of us?

Absolutely clearly in the context of the article "the rest of us" was the people who didn't vote for Trump, who accepted the result of the election even if they had voted for Trump, and who didn't try to overthrow (or support those who tried to overthrow) the certification in the Capitol. The 200 rioters in Portland needed dealing with, appear to have been dealt with, and hardly constitute an "ungovernable" mob. Unlike, perhaps, the sizeable percentage of the US population who think the election was stolen from Trump, and support the seditionaries who tried to overthrow its result.

The problem is that we have these virtual spaces where people act out and it bleeds into their local space. If it were just the local space and people behaved like this, they would be shunned. Even if it wouldn't be formalized, people with any kind of emotional intelligence would realize that this kind of behavior is going to reap a bad reaction.

I just had an elementary school classmate who I friended me a couple of years ago, hadn't posted anything on FB of note, post 'fuck Biden, he stole the election'. You ignore it, or you put him to sleep, or you unfriend him. Only the latter one has the possibility of him noticing and even then, it's not a big thing. Behave like that in the grocery store week in, week out, and the culmulative weight of opprobation will tell.

That's why diversity matters, you increase the potential for negative pressure.

This portrait of Josh Hawley by Tim Murphy is a must-read. In our moment of relief, we can't ignore what's up with him.

Rural Missouri looms large in Hawley’s political identity as much because of what it is as because of what it is not, chiefly: other places, outside the Great American Middle, where he contends American values are under attack. Those places are the domain of a “cosmopolitan elite,” Hawley told a ballroom of conservative dignitaries in DC last year.

as soon as Fox News moves its HQ to East Westburg, MO and none of its stars come from NYC, L.A., SF and greater New England, with Ivy League educations, i'll give a fuck about what "the base" says about people from the heartland.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oregon-s-democratic-party-offices-vandalized-amid-post-inauguration-protests-n1255118

So, the Democratic party, full of leftists, was attacked by leftists. And this is the evidence of too much left wing in America. Another day in Marty land.

Sorry, I thought it wasn't paywalled (I'm a subscriber) - anyway, seems like great book.

I didn't notice it was paywalled either, but in my case it's because I run a modest set of filters that control what files get loaded and processed by my browser. Since it's an open thread, I'll get up on my perennial soapbox...

What almost all media sites with paywalls do is load data into your computer (sometimes many megabytes), and code into your computer, then when you load an article the code runs and looks at the data, and if the code doesn't like the data it covers up the article. You are under no obligation, legal or ethical, to allow them to behave this way. After all, they make no promises that the software will be benign. They don't pay you for the storage space you're providing. They count content that they didn't create against your monthly limit (eg, AP articles).

After this past week's adventure with Parler and AWS, I am waiting for one of the big browsers (not Chrome, for obvious reasons) to announce that the default setting will be to not download content from doubleclick.net until they demonstrate a workable scheme to block inappropriate or offensive content.

If I can figure out how to block everything from doubleclick.net, I will do it. I've never seen anything useful from there.

Various Republican Senators and other elected officials are taking offense at Biden's negative remarks about racists, etc. On the grounds that it was a slur on them. But Biden didn't mention them, either individually or collectively as Republicans. Do they even realize that their complaint is only valid IF they embrace the application of those terms to themselves? That is, it's only if they call themselves racist that they have been slurred.

Yesterday federal troops were forced to tear gas antifa "protestors".

in Portland OR.

Portland has a history, going back decades, of chronic violent confrontation between anarchists and white supremacists. Or, between either of them and local government and LEO. By decades, I mean 30-40 years, although both parties have deeper roots in the area.

If either "side" ever needs fresh ammunition for the rage machine, Portland is sure to provide, and on a timely basis.

I thought it valuable to ask, who is the rest of us?

non-seditionists. which side of that you want to land is up to you.

Do they even realize that their complaint is only valid IF they embrace the application of those terms to themselves?

but where's the political mileage in that?

wj: ... it's only if they call themselves racist that they have been slurred.

Or: if they're wearing the shoe, maybe it fits.

--TP

A crowd of about 150 people gathered at Revolution Hall, a music venue in southeast Portland, and marched to the headquarters of the Democratic Party of Oregon on Wednesday afternoon. Some individuals vandalized the building with graffiti and smashed windows, while others moved dumpsters into the middle of the street and lit the contents on fire, police said.

and Democrats are supposed to take responsibility for this?

Democrats created a monster they can't control! (That's parody, but I'm guessing it will be indistinguishable from reality.)

Yesterday federal troops were forced to tear gas antifa "protestors".

Who forced them to do it?

Do they even realize that their complaint is only valid IF they embrace the application of those terms to themselves?

It's hard to see past the grievance.

That friend that I was talking with on FB messenger for about an hour after American Benghazi ended up defriending me. He did so because he said my FB post was elitist.

I was making fun of Democrats, mind, asking what book they were planning to recommend to Republicans to explain Ossoff voters the way that they all rushed out to buy a copy of Hillbilly Elegy after the Clinton loss. As if the Trump voters would ever care that they had not understood and won over Obama/Trump voters. It's not their M.O.

One person, naturally, commented that Trump voters don't read. And that one comment was enough to make someone whose wedding party I had been a part of decide that my initial post was insulting him personally.

Trump voters do read, it's just that the majority of them read everything the same way that Joe Pesci listens in Goodfellas. Their identity is the chip on their shoulder. It's all they have.

Democrats created a monster they can't control!

Murc's Law is harsh but fair.

Who forced them to do it?

Biden. The person who is also running scared of the hard socialists and set to bend his knee to the power of The Squad.

Follow the clues, normie. It's all right there in the open if you look hard enough.

Where we go one, we go all...even if that place is patently absurd.

"who accepted the result of the election even if they had voted for Trump, and who didn't try to overthrow (or support those who tried to overthrow) the certification in the Capitol."

Not one of the liberal commentators here ever accepted the result of the election of Trump. They supported at every step the attempt to nullify that election using every tool at the disposal of the Democrats, up to and including impeachment based on a completely debunked conspiracy theory that the election wasn't legitimate because of Russian interference. The election wasn't legitimate because Hilary got more popular votes. The list goes on.

Trying to equate some stupid act by a few hundred right wing nut jobs to the sedition of the entire Democratic party and anyone left of them over the last four years is simply laughable.

For myself, both elections seemed to be legitimate. While I didn't want either of them to be President. It is what it is.

If I can figure out how to block everything from doubleclick.net, I will do it. I've never seen anything useful from there.

I believe all of the common ad-blockers have doubleclick.net on their list of bad guys by default. If you can find, download, and install an app on your phone, you can handle a browser add-on. I run uBlock Origin. You can whitelist any ad-supported site you like with a couple of clicks.

I want to meet my cardboard cutout one of these days. He sounds like a fun guy to argue with.

I want to meet my cardboard cutout one of these days. He sounds like a fun guy to argue with.

I really, really mean it!

Marty never could spell "Ukraine" worth a damn.

Not one of the liberal commentators here ever accepted the result of the election of Trump. They supported at every step the attempt to nullify that election using every tool at the disposal of the Democrats

Somehow, I don't remember that. They all disliked, intensely disliked, the fact that Trump had won. And they were unhappy that he had won the electoral vote while losing the popular vote. But I don't recall anyone trying to argue that he had NOT won the electoral vote. Or that he was not, in fact, the duly elected President.

There were questions about voter suppression, yes. But there were minimal suggestions that there was outright electoral fraud. Certainly no suggestions that there was electoral fraud on a scale which would have reversed the results.
Whereas these past two months . . . .

But perhaps someone can point me to where, on this blog, anyone argued that Trump had not been legitimately elected President. (Just to be clear, saying that he is a bastard isn't the same as saying that he wasn't legitimately elected.)


Marty, barely a word of what you say above is factually accurate.

1. Everyone here accepted the result of Trump's election. They deplored it, they lamented it, they wished it otherwise, but they never tried to "nullify the result".

2. They did say that Russia interfered in Trump's favour, because Russia did. This has never been debunked, on the contrary all your intelligence agencies support it. What was not proven is that the Russian interference was actually successful in electing Trump, nor (although there is some evidence for it) that there was actionable collusion.

3. Many (or most) here think it is a real problem that it is so easy for someone to win a presidential election despite losing the popular vote by many millions. This is not the same as saying that the election is not legitimate under current rules.

4. Nobody ever tried to "nullify the election" by impeaching Trump. He has been twice impeached for serious misdemeanours in office, which your system allows (although apparently Rs think blowjobs from an intern should qualify).

the sedition of the entire Democratic party

Words have meanings. The Democratic party did not commit sedition, and your contention that they did is meaningless and absurd. As for calling the January 6th attack on the Capitol some stupid act by a few hundred right wing nut jobs, this starts to raise serious doubts about what you think, or what you are saying. This was an attempt to subvert American democracy, incited by the President, as now acknowledged by many previously Trump-loyal Republican politicians, and if you think otherwise I am seriously worried about what is happening to your thought processes. Do you actually believe this ridiculous guff, or are you just trying to yank our chains?

Not one of the liberal commentators here ever accepted the result of the election of Trump. They supported at every step the attempt to nullify that election...

I'll start by saying that, as a simple point of fact, you mis-state the grounds for which Trump was impeached.

And I'll leave it there, because that and the rest of it are barely worth discussing. Just a paragraph full of falsehoods.

it is what it is.

russell, Portland, Seattle *hand wave* The only violence I saw on inauguration day was from the left. After all my *handwaving* came true, there are just more violent leftists on a day to day basis. Democracy survived, essentially unchallenged, and the right couldn't even generate any decent local protests much less a riot on the big day. All those armed and dangerous right wingers just didn't have enough sedition in them after all.

Marty knows more than the FBI.

I am seriously worried about what is happening to your thought processes.

For me, that ship sailed a long time ago.

"(although apparently Rs think blowjobs from an intern should qualify)."

An act that would get any CEO fired on the spot, completely unacceptable behavior in this society.
It was not just a blowjob, it is considered an abuse of a power relationship that is strictly outside the bounds of any measure of propriety. And he knew it, so he lied. The lie is the big tell, just as it was with Trump.

Trying to handwave it away is again laughable.

People do lots of things that are "an attempt to subvert American democracy" including attacking Democratic Party headquarters on inauguration day. The attempt to somehow make Jan 6 the responsibility of Republican's or the right beyond the participants is an exercise in nullification.

What I think is the President riled up the crowd, got probably a little more action than he expected, but didn't mind a bit because he actually believes the election was stolen. Because he is not in touch with reality at this point, or maybe is now. The small faction that completely misunderstood the Presidents dedication to their action were dumbasses, he wouldn't have the balls to do much but talk and tweet. So they were just idiots.

And to pretend that any meaningful percentage of the 75 million people who voted for him supported that is ludicrous. Most of them don't see a smoking gun in his speech, because they don't want to as much as you do.

Lastly, I did not misstate the grounds on which he was impeached. I simply stated that everyone here supported impeaching based on a completely debunked conspiracy theory that the election wasn't legitimate because of Russian interference. Not that he was.

There is not, if read in good faith, one untrue thing in that paragraph.

Well one thing the violence in Portland and Seattle proves: the Democrats are not radicals and not a vehicle for "antifa".

And another thing the violence proves: representative government is not threatened by them. It's a local policing issue and If I ran the world I would tell the cops to arrest arrest arrest and I would also them that if they can't make those arrests without killing or severely injuring people then they are not competent and should not be cops.

As for the right--which is far more numerous and far more violent over time (according to the FBI) being unable to organize much in the way of protests: I wasn't expecting them to show. Being bullies, I expected them to crawl off and hide after the spectacle they made of themselves at the Capital.

Democracy survived but remains challenged by the Republican party. They will gerrymander wherever they can. They will pass laws to restrict access to mail in ballots wherever they can. Their attacks on voting rights--organized, deliberate, planned--are an attack on representative government.

And the Republican hate/fear/lie "news" is still operational and still pumping out the propaganda that created the radicalization of Republican voters that fuels the attacks the Republican party is making on representative government. The most obvious example of this being the lie about voter fraud which is believed by most Republican voters The Repubican party has been delegitimizing the rest of America for decades and thst's what gave a Texas realtor the sense of entitlement that allowed her to think she was in the right to use violence to try to overturn and election

There were representatives from extremist groups in the attack on the capital. But large numbers of people there were employed otherwise lawabiding middle class white people who had drunk the KoolAid of Republican messaging and were full of entitlement. And there were lots of former soldiers, lots of cops, and lots of Republican lawmakers.

What they had in common was the belief in their entitlement, their belief that THEY were American and the rest of us just don't count . That's what nearly every Republican politician and the Faux hater line up and the galaxy or "conservative" "news" has been sawing for years.

Our democracy is still in critical danger from these people. And they are not trawler trash Nazis. They are the people next door in anytown anywhere who believe that Biden didn't really win and Obama's citizenship should have been investigated and Hilary something about her emails and Hunter Biden/China/something, and Democrats are socialists etc the whole demeaning, defaming marginalizing bullshit that makes them believe that they have to vote Republican to save America from the rest of us

So no Democracy is not safe and no those idiots in Portland and Seattle are not threat to democracy and yes the Republican party is.

An act that would get any CEO fired on the spot, completely unacceptable behavior in this society.
It was not just a blowjob, it is considered an abuse of a power relationship that is strictly outside the bounds of any measure of propriety. And he knew it, so he lied.

I agree with this. And that it should not be handwaved away.

But to compare that behaviour by a POTUS, no matter how reprehensible, to an attempt by a POTUS to blackmail an ally into investigating a political rival's family, before releasing already authorised aid, or to a POTUS inciting a mob to riot and force a VPOTUS to betray his oath to protect the constitution by certifying the results of an election, seems incredible. I repeat, do you actually believe this ridiculous guff, or are you engaged in some sort of strange performance art/reductio ad absurdum?

I didn't bring up Clinton you did.

I haven't defended a single action by Trump, I was pointing out the actions of the Democrats. Both that Trump did things wrong and the Democrats spent four years trying to nullify an election they never considered legitimate can be true. It is not either/or.

Both that Trump did things wrong and the Democrats spent four years trying to nullify an election they never considered legitimate can be true.

But the latter is not true, by any definition of the word "true". Since you will not answer whether you actually believe any of this, I am afraid that (like russell) I have to conclude there is no point continuing this conversation. I can only hope you don't really believe it, and that the next time we hear from you you will not be down the Q rabbithole.

Both that Trump did things wrong and the Democrats spent four years trying to nullify an election they never considered legitimate can be true.

That is totally correct. They COULD both be true. But, in point of fact, only one of them actually is.

Impeachment is not the nullification of an election, no matter how many times you say it is. It is not the same thing as attempting to prevent the transfer of power. It is not even the same thing as suing to have the election nullified. Your false equivalencies are moronic.

I've clarified twice what I believe. Any other view of the facts is forgiving to one side or the other.

Your lack of ability to see that even before he was sworn in the Democrats were laying the groundwork to declare the election illegitimate and try to find a way to get rid of him is moronic. Nullification can happen in more ways than one, thee Democrats successfully used the tools at their disposal to do it. No one in a position to actually do it tried to stop the transfer of power, no matter how many times you say it the swearing in of Joe Biden was never at risk. To consider a mob attacking the the Capitol building any threat to our Democracy is moronic.

Because, we are not a banana republic where the military and the President make a lot of money from being in power that can buy legislators. But mostly because the states would have to agree to support such a thing and, they wouldn't.

In case anybody hasn't seen this, transcript of Press Gaggle with Acting Secretary Miller en route to Washington DC:

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/2473893/press-gaggle-with-acting-secretary-miller-en-route-to-washington-dc/

The transfer of power was never at risk because the objections were total bullsh*t. But all the frivolous lawsuits, the actions of people in congress, and the encouragement of the mob on January 6th have no equivalent.

What tools did the Democrats successfully use to nullify an election? What election was nullified?

russell, Portland, Seattle *hand wave*

yeah, no.

first of all, the number of people on this board who are on 'the left' is probably two or three. bobbyp, and I don't know who else, so I'm spotting you two more.

'the left' actually means something, and what it means is not 'not on the right'. the political spectrum in this country runs from the middle to significantly to the right of the middle. what people call 'the left' nowadays is basically what was a bog standard middle-of-the-road position from about 1930 until the Reagan era.

the people who rioted on inauguration day are actually - some of them, anyway - on 'the left'. most of them are anarchists. they have literally no connection to the (D)'s as a party, see also the fact that they were protesting Joe Biden's inauguration. they have bugger-all to do with pretty much anyone on this board, and most people here do not support them, at all, in any way. I sure don't.

If I mention the history of left and right wing extremist violence in Portland and other, similar cities, it's just an attempt to provide context. So that we all understand WTF we're talking about. Receive it or don't, that's up to you.

Trump and his campaign were under investigation before he was inaugurated because there was - and is - good reason to believe that people in his campaign were co-operating with Russian nationals to fnck with the election. Full stop.

Trump was impeached because he deserved to be impeached. There were ample grounds for impeachment beginning from the first day of his time in office, continuing up to his last day in office. The fact that he was only impeached twice during that time is the only thing remarkable in any of that.

Not because he was (R), but because he's Trump. He is a freaking crook, has been a crook all his life, will be a crook until his last dying breath, I have no doubt. He is a crook.

The people who rioted at the Capitol on Jan 6 included folks who were looking for Pence and members of Congress, in order to try to force them to throw out the electoral vote. It's highly unlikely that that would have prevented Biden from taking office, it's highly unlikely that it would have brought about any useful outcome whatsoever.

What it would have brought about is utter chaos, and there is not one person on the freaking planet who has any idea what it would have led to, or what kind of situation we'd be looking at right now.

Unlike the actions of free-lance anarchists, who basically hate any reasonable candidate for office except maybe Bernie, the folks on January 6 were quite explicitly partisan supporters of Trump. And, their actions were encouraged by Trump. And, he did nothing - not one damned thing - to stop them from rioting and possibly capturing and killing members of Congress and the VPOTUS.

Instead, he watched it on TV.

You've been here quite a while, so I'm showing you the respect of responding to your comments with basic, factual information. Information you surely are aware of and have access to, but which you seem unable to absorb.

But I'm sick of arguing about bullshit. I'm asking you to quit bringing this BS here.

It was not just a blowjob, it is considered an abuse of a power relationship that is strictly outside the bounds of any measure of propriety. And he knew it, so he lied.

I agree with this. And that it should not be handwaved away.

As do I.

Clinton was impeached for lying under oath. It's a credible basis for impeachment, and he was in fact impeached.

It's been 22 freaking years. Next topic, please.

wrs Especially the last sentence.

You whose transformation has been fascinating to watch?

Jennifer Rubin's.

I only know her from her WaPo writings,and then only since the Clinton Administration (I think).

She at times struck me as someone who might have been liberal if not for the state of Israel, or if not for the attack on 9-11. But whether she was a former liberal, or was always conservative, conservative commentary was definitely her thing for a very long time. Infuriatingly so.

But something happened when Trump rose within the GOP. Rubin's cup of gobsmacked disgust ran over, and she slowly but surely estranged herself from the entire GOP (well, except for Romney). To the point where some of her columns are pretty damned Woke. Astonishingly so.

And one thing I've noticed during Rubin's transition from Conservative Commentator to Holy Shit She's Liberal Now. She's really enjoying the awakening.

I get the sense there are internal contradictions being a conservative pundit forced on her that she is now free of, and by god she likes it. She's also no longer forced by ideological loyalty to ally herself with people who you could tell, even back then, repulsed her.

What I'm saying is, Jen Rubin seems to be a very happy person these days, and not just because Trump is gone. She wants to burn down the whole GOP, and she's fiercely joyous about wanting to burn down the whole GOP.

That just strikes me as a very different sort of transition, from someone going down the Q rabbit hole. You don't get the sense they enjoy what they're doing, or the company they're keeping.

Just saying.

Assume, just for the sake of discussion, that Clinton was guilty of pretty much everything he was accused of -- including from before he took office. Would he be even close to Trump? Nope. He's a scumbag, but he just ain't in Trump's league when it comes to illegal (or immoral, or unethical) behavior.

As russell notes, the only surprising thing about Trump being impeached twice is that we got so numbed to his transgressions that it was only twice. Consider what things would have gotten any other President impeached and removed. If Trump had gotten impeached every time he committed one of those, he'd have faced impeachment votes monthly weekly. For 4 years.

I should note, My comment and russell's last comment crossed and 'the last sentence' begins with 'I'm asking you...'

Jen Rubin seems to be a very happy person these days, and not just because Trump is gone. She wants to burn down the whole GOP, and she's fiercely joyous about wanting to burn down the whole GOP.

Not quite. Consider that Liz Cheney was her Person of the Week last Sunday.

Certainly there are big chunks of today's Republican Party that she would like to trash. (I feel the same way myself.) But I think a rather better label for her would be one that one of my more liberal friends once hung on me: "But you're a tolerent conservative!"

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/a-last-trump-present

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/i-dont-see-any-method-at-all-sir-2

Rubin's transformation has been awesome. her outrage at Trump and the GOP is a joy to behold.

and yeah, wrs. but, after all these years. i think we all know Marty's going to just keep on whattabouting and parotting those dumb-ass Hannity-grade talking points, no matter what evidence he has to ignore. and man, is it tiresome.

Not quite. Consider that Liz Cheney was her Person of the Week last Sunday.

Okay, Jen's crushing on Romney and Cheney.

And, as much as I hate to give Dick's Daughter any credit at all, because she is a thoroughly vile person, Liz did make it safe for GOPsters to vote for impeachment. A whole nine other Resp took her up on it. (Still 10 more than voted for the first impeachment).

But I think a rather better label for her would be one that one of my more liberal friends once hung on me: "But you're a tolerent conservative!"

if Republicans were like wj here, the country would be a better place.

Compare those last two cites.

Someone blew somebody in the first case, but no matter how many Republican Party dicks were sucked in the second case, there was no procuring a vaccine.

Twenty-two years from now Marty won't give a hoot about those blowjobs.

Blush!

AFAIK Rubin is still a crazy Likudnik - I sometimes wonder: what do you have to say to get fired as WaPo / NYT columnist?

what do you have to say to get fired as WaPo / NYT columnist?

until Marc Theissen and Hugh Hewitt get booted from WaPo, Rubin is perfectly safe.

novakant, Molly Ivins at the NYT comes to mind although strictly speaking I don't think she was fired.

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