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November 18, 2020

Comments

Sebastian,

Under dictator Cuomo's rules, if Yankee stadium was in a red zone, gatherings there would be prohibited, but St. John's could still have up to 10 people gather together in a corner for choir practice.

Please explain to us how this constitutes religious discrimination.

Over here in Germany there are cases where people liken themselves to those who resisted the Nazis during the 3rd Reich when they spread anti-vaxxing propaganda. And a mother taught her child that she was like Anne Frank when they celebrated her birthday with many attendants in secret because they feared that someone would inform the authorities that they blatantly violated the regulations for partial lockdown.

I have to say, I am starting to feel somewhat better about my (admittedly quick and lazy) acceptance of the narrative about the SCOTUS ruling on places of worship and their entitlement to preferential treatment under public health regulations.

Also FWIW: malls in NY are required to have HEPA filtering HVAC systems in place in order to open.

A mall with no businesses open is basically a place for geezers to get their daily walk when the weather's bad, and a place for teenagers to hang out and smoke cigarettes and flirt. It's a very large open place, with HEPA filtered HVAC.

Per this article, all seating has been removed from the public areas of the Queens Palace Mall. All stores and businesses within the mall have to observe whatever COVID regulations apply to them.

As a total aside, just want to send a tiny shout-out to Queens NY, land of my birth and ancestral stomping ground of my people on my mother's side. Home of the Unisphere and the NY Mets, y'all!

But I digress.

We're all just trying to get through this. There are entire sectors of the economy and public life in general that are being crushed like a freaking bug by COVID.

Nobody's picking on religious communities. At least, not in particular, certainly not any more than any other demographic. They are being mightily inconvenienced, but they aren't being singled out.

We're all just trying to stay safe and alive until we get to the other side of all of this. Insisting on Your Inalienable Right to do everything exactly the same way you've always done it, at a time when that will probably kill some people, is... not attractive.

Just saying.

Barrett's ascension to the Court essentially reversed previous rulings on similar circumstances in Nevada and California. See Robert's dissent.

The majority has clearly indicated its proclivity for scientific illiteracy. The dangers of this ideologically driven nonsense are obvious.

and hey, while I'm here, let's not forget Georgia, incidentally the ancestral stomping ground of my people on my father's side.

send $10 or send $100 if you got it. write some postcards, jump on a phone bank.

50-50 senate will get more done than a (R) majority senate. Not everything, just more.

every little bit helps.

Just what is this freedom thing anyway?

Which are more similar to churches:
- malls and other venues where people are walking around?
- theaters, concert halls, and stadiums, where people come and sit in one place for a couple of hours?

Maybe it's just me, but if I had been writing the rules I would have put churches in the second group. Not even close.

And, having shut down that group completely, allowing churches to open (with limited attendance) definitely constitutes special treatment. It's discrimination in their favor.

Christianity and socialism antithetical? Well,
perhaps not.

Even if you disagree...a very thoughtful read.

Really hard to decide who to root for on this one....
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/527680-donor-sues-pro-trump-group-over-failure-to-prove-voter-fraud

Maybe a case where cheering for the attorneys on both sides to bankrupt their clients...?

I have not read much beyond the comments here, so I ask this out of ignorance.

Did the SCOTUS hold that Cuomo's intent was to oppress religion? Or did they hold that intent was irrelevant, and only the effect was the problem?

Not that I expect the McConnell Court to respect its own principles or anything, but this distinction between impermissible intent and impermissible effects might end up figuring in other cases, involving e.g. voting rights, or affirmative action, or the ACA.

--TP

the McConnell Court

I believe it's now referred to as the Covid Barrett Court.

The opinion itself says this: "Citing a variety of remarks made by the
Governor, Agudath Israel argues that the Governor specifically targeted the Orthodox Jewish community and gerrymandered the boundaries of red and orange zones to ensure
that heavily Orthodox areas were included. "

The concurring opinions vary, but who cares.

Red and orange zones are based on prevalence of cases, so if particular places are targeted, well ...

Anyway, I'm neither a public health expert, nor a statistician, but since Cuomo is a Catholic (although not the Covid Barrett variety), and some of the dissenters are Catholic or Jewish, I'm skeptical.

I'm also find this quote by Gorsuch somewhat alarming (and telling): "Even if judges may impose emergency restrictions on rights that some of them have found hiding in the Constitution’s penumbras, it does not follow that the same fate should befall the textually explicit right to religious exercise."

He's referring to a case decided in 1905, not Griswald v. US (the famous "penumbra" case, which decided a married couple's right to contraception based on a right to privacy.)

Agudath Israel argues that the Governor specifically targeted the Orthodox Jewish community

The most restrictive rules - red zone rules - limit houses of worship to 10 people maximum. Which also happens to be the minimum for a minyan, which in turn is the minimum number required for most forms of public worship in traditional Judaism.

One could argue that the Orthodox community may have been specifically targeted, but in a supportive way.

Not quite Russell, in many Orthodox traditions you need at least 10 men for a minyan, so essentially the rules meant that there would either never be a minyan, or women would not be allowed.

in many Orthodox traditions you need at least 10 men for a minyan, so essentially the rules meant that there would either never be a minyan, or women would not be allowed.

Yay. Maybe while the men are away, the women can escape. (See the great miniseries "Unorthodox".)

I’ve read about minyan and this article is quite interesting. It’s unfortunate that the orthodox jewish group(s) did not take this as an opportunity to reconsider the practices

https://sites.google.com/site/hashtaumd/contents-1/minyan

there would either never be a minyan, or women would not be allowed.

Just FYI, in many Orthodox traditions, women are already not allowed. To the point that, at an Orthodox wedding, the men and women are together only when the vows are recited outside. Indeed, at the reception, not only are the men and women entirely separate, but the bride and groom dance "together" in separate rooms. (Although the groomsmen do, sometimes, hold the groom up on a table so that the bride can at least see him over the room divider.)

In short, 10 for a minyan is minimal. But sufficient.

there would either never be a minyan, or women would not be allowed.

Just FYI, in many Orthodox traditions, women are already not allowed. To the point that, at an Orthodox wedding, the men and women are together only when the vows are recited outside. Indeed, at the reception, not only are the men and women entirely separate, but the bride and groom dance "together" in separate rooms. (Although the groomsmen do, sometimes, hold the groom up on a table so that the bride can at least see him over the room divider.)

In short, 10 for a minyan is minimal. But sufficient.

No idea how that happened!

Religious cultures are super interesting - whatever floats people's boat, I'm for it.

But there's a better way - quarantine together all of you congregants! Get food delivered. Live together, die together, etc.

There are ways to behave besides infecting the rest of us.

Also, enlist your own as medical people. No sharing!

Not quite Russell, ...

No women would suck. But neither I nor Cuomo made the rule about it having to be 10 men.

Look, it’s more than clear to me that COVID has interfered with many parts of life, including worship services. Exercise of religion is constitutionally protected, the communities involved are free to bring their case, and in this instance they prevailed.

They’re luckier in that regard than all of the other communities that have been clobbered by COVID, but which cannot cite anything in the Bill of Rights to contest the regulations they are obliged to operate under.

I’m sympathetic to the folks involved, but when I look at what the regulations require, I don’t see religious communities being singled out for adverse treatment. If anything, the opposite.

So I don’t see that the SCOTUS ruling as having merit. YMMV, obviously, but I’m not seeing a persuasive argument here.

not a lawyer, but it sure seems like the majority that decided this was giving a signal to other religious groups that this is going to be the way to go. I wonder if that would provoke pope francis to state his opinions more. I also wonder if this is related
Guardian, but can’t paste the link from my phone

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEDkQFfVomvsEoE4fc3kEtFMqFwgEKg4IACoGCAowl6p7MN-zCTClss0G?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

This group doesn't seem to care much about whether or not they spread disease.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-lines-for-covid-19-tests-were-longer-than-the-lines-for-black-friday-shopping-11606507181?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

For Amy Covid Barrett:

https://cavstheblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/laurie-lipton-delusion-dwellers.jpeg

Then, get in line:

https://laurielipton.bigcartel.com/product/los-paragueros

Also, welcome back, Sebastian.

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