All good things

by liberal japonicus

In Fowles' The French Lieutenant's Woman, the author (well, I think it is the author) muses on the fact that the structure of the printed text makes it so it is automatically an imperfect reflection of reality. You know that the story will end when you get to the end of the book. Different authors try to get around that in various ways. (Fowles tried it by writing three equally plausible endings, George R. R. Martin is trying it by not ever finishing...) but face it, you get to the end of the book, you know something is going to end.

I'd have given my eye teeth to have thought of this 'End of an Error' title, but I'll just have to say, if this were a novel, I'd be happily digging into these last pages, watching as the big orange loser, in full temper tatrum mode, goes off kicking and screaming. And just in case I'm being too arch with the title, what I mean is that I really would have enjoyed this little election had I known the outcome. But looking back on the last few days, it's been nice to watch him twist in the wind. I mentioned that part of my support for Warren, or actually any woman was based on the fact that it would have been so satisfying to watch a woman kick this guy's ass. In the comments, there was the observation (and I'm not sure who to attribute it to, but I like it a lot) is that if the early votes were counted, we would have a narrative of Biden winning and Orangeshite slowly but inevitably left behind.

Maybe in one of the reboots...

Comments

[Tony P.]

It was hairshirt that said it, and kudos to him for saying it.

--TP

[wj]

part of my support for Warren, or actually any woman was based on the fact that it would have been so satisfying to watch a woman kick this guy's ass.

Satisfying as it would have been (very!), the critical part was getting him booted out.

[liberal japonicus]

wj, that's the thing about reboots... you get to keep the critical parts and play around with everything else...

[liberal japonicus]

And apologies for not acknowledging hsh, who got this thought train rolling.

[Girl from the North Country]

the critical part was getting him booted out

Yes. And it's perfectly possible, likely even, that Biden was the only one of the Dem contenders who could have done it, things in the US being as they are. Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

[Ufficio]

Given that the rationale of the Biden candidacy was him not being Trump, I suspect any of the non-fringe Democratic contenders would have done roughly as well.

Of course margins were close enough in decisive states that "roughly" could have been the difference between an EC win or loss.

[Cheez]

There are apocalyptic levels of relief on my Facebook feed, chock-a-block with liberals. They clearly see the end of a bad dream. The problem with tomorrow is that we are in the Never-Ending Story. As someone once said, "tomorrow is another day".

[wj]

Given that the rationale of the Biden candidacy was him not being Trump, I suspect any of the non-fringe Democratic contenders would have done roughly as well.

Except that the rationale, as I understood it, was that he was not Trump and not radical. Which is why the Trump campaign kept trying to paint him as radical (a lost cause), or at least as a puppet for radicals.

So, unless you draw "non-fringe" really wide, no. Bloomberg or Klobuchar, sure. And I'd guess that the country has evolved enough that Buttigeig might have done as well, too. But beyond there? Some pretty non-radical choices that still could have been far more successfully painted as extreme and scary.

[sapient]

the Never-Ending Story

True enough, but much better than the ending story!

Forever vigilant - we have to remember that we can't rest in taking our civic life seriously. It seems that if we want a democratic government that functions without corruption, with compassion and tolerance, that allows people to live mostly as they choose, but with some responsibility to contribute to the common good, we have to fight for it, because a lot of people don't care about those principles at all.

[bobbyp]

But beyond there?

Well, obviously.....the abyss.

[liberal japonicus]

I suspect any of the non-fringe Democratic contenders would have done roughly as well.

Not accusing people here, but my FB feed, full of hard core Marxists I suppose, are saying 'gee, had we had XX, think of the margin of victory'

which is crap. As has been observed, the problem is not candidate, it's the country.

[wj]

Well, obviously.....the abyss.

Well, no. At least in the view of this conservative. (Although I have known real radical lefties, so I'm harder to con with merely liberals.)

But those with less experience are too readily convinced. As I think you will agree, on reflection. After all, they (and the propaganda outlets they frequent) consider Harris a socialist. Pretty sure that you greet that "analysis" with something between an eyeroll and a belly laugh.

[liberal japonicus]

Belly laughs

https://www.themarysue.com/trump-campaign-ends-with-saddest-press-conference-at-four-seasons-total-landscaping/

[John Thullen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfAzdQKPchQ

[John Thullen]

Click on this mess and maybe the TikTok video will download and play:

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=f28ca5871a&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1682753569170355525&th=175a57749eeb7545&view=att&disp=safe&sadnir=1&saddbat=ANGjdJ9LsymKN3bhOoVKL8m3WXZ9jUFLsFM4QADO4VwZivYaJUoYYF_7_mT-H_v-i1zdlisbnw_CRzeqkWlF5PfAHQNS2Ynds9eUcr_BfV93nH2HVTA75JjZbNyWtSVUzLgIGU8IFVi91KYo8I3sdXc12Thv9mGpkAb_xZ70FIG_DGHWW9kY0wC6jSNJK6BKXS1ngC_qYTPP-cFG25RcJ8JI1x26q5X0sdCxuJ9w-_rCSLdb8PWZmS6e5-wDPXIgrr3kgQ3uhH8di7lHcwd9wHRbWvLIkBEYh0vULgPn76Xj7UasptT5o-rF3cE1jDUfLj-68rr6HGxRkFgDG8ft1Bcog7YQDSpy4cgUQiyT8FlwG1eU8TdZhm1JkWizbJyuMq4R-0FDCJc7P7hhOx2ggQnm-Y1LnsJSudmg4L976PJ9VH56wA74SsZlSSDpQWMYK08VYbePYMRk3ldAQ04ZplhyKNqB8gZlznJY29BQROgLUQP2BGPuRmBkhaepnVM8X1KAb3TlijH2b5T_Xec6SPcUeKNtjnKG7czv0uqypvWmOnE4bJ3Yi3luFRZoJOdrcRZOMRicYPueqckuwjZ2eGhHPaXnUPilHQ9JonytphPJYuasTHdunrBor_PqAZ1-hh9SkwcMhx5jEt0zlfeJU0Oi5RH0NxJePCOZB3_Vt8sSKeeyUaAJIWqBHlrE_ps

[GftNC]

I hadn't seen this before. Joe Biden being inappropriate (not) with the young son with Down's syndrome of a teacher who had been killed in a school shooting:

https://twitter.com/RobOHanrahan/status/1325171142328381440

[GftNC]

Please can we have another 24 hours? Carole Cadwalladr retweeted this, the crowd singing the Star Spangled Banner in front of the White House, and I am almost welling up. This Land is Your Land would put me over the edge:

https://twitter.com/RobOHanrahan/status/1325171142328381440

[GftNC]

Sorry, wrong clip.

https://twitter.com/karaswisher/status/1325185256677208067

[cleek]

it'll be over for me the day WaPo has zero articles with "Trump" in the headline on their front page. or the day Colbert (or Trevor Noah) does a monologue that isn't entirely about Trump.

it's been almost 5 years of non-stop TRUMP!

[Marty]

In 2022 the Dems lose the House. In 2024 pretty much any Republican mainstream candidate will retake the WH.

This is getting up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. The nightmare will continue.

Geez, it took a slightly less offensive version of Trump to eek out a victory with tons of Republicans not liking Trump personally. We elected a racist 70 plus year old white male and declared a victory for the left. There was not a single policy point at the center of the campaign. The Covid plan Biden talks about is just Trumps lack of a plan documented. He's not going to shut down the economy, he's going to shut down the disease(change he to I and thats a quote as stupid as it is). We are going to expand PPE production (this is pretty much done). Woohoo

It would boggle the mind if there had been any purpose except defeating Trump, which provides a pyrric victory ar best. The cost was extraordinary in money and what will be another Democratic fiasco.

As Republicans learned, winning at the cost of your principles means losing more than you gained.

As a final point, Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was. His pablum crap about uniting the country is the most insulting form of bullshit. He doesn't represent sny significant policy, could be full stop, that I agree with.

But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.

Just in case anyone wondered what I thought.

[Girl from the North Country]

In 2022 the Dems lose the House. In 2024 pretty much any Republican mainstream candidate will retake the WH.

Diarised for future reference. Praying to various deities you are wrong. And only the loony right is declaring "a victory for the left", that's the whole point. Other than that, hard to know what to say to you. Get some sleep, and hope you feel better in the morning.

[Hartmut]

In 2022 the Dems lose the House. In 2024 pretty much any Republican mainstream candidate will retake the WH.

Unfortunately, I am inclined to believe that part to be true.
Although 'mainstream' is up to debate. Not by the standards of any pre-Reagan Republican. Gingrich will be to the outmost left of what will be seen as GOP mainstream in the not so distant future and that will define where the winning GOP candidate can be expected to be to qualify.

[Marty]

I feel fine GftNC, this is all just politics, my real life is much improved lately.

Be well.

[Girl from the North Country]

Good.

Be well.

Right back atcha.

[Nigel]

This is possibly the most significant story of the campaign. And more importantly, the couple of years preceding it.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/08/stacey-abrams-believers-georgia-blue-434985

If the Democrats were to learn its lessons, then Marty’s 2022 forecasts would be so much empty air.
We’ll see.

[Nigel]

As for policies, the RNC didn’t even adopt a platform.

If the Senate doesn’t completely stall him, Biden will get much done.

[cleek]

it took a slightly less offensive version of Trump to eek out a victory with tons of Republicans not liking Trump personally. We elected a racist 70 plus year old white male and declared a victory for the left.

this is utterly delusional.

There was not a single policy point at the center of the campaign

if you don't count healthcare, infrastructure, climate, police reform, COVID, taxes, schools, etc, etc - which, of course you can't, because your shitty fraudulent party never talked about any of that. for the GOP, screaming "jobs not mobs" and "socialism!" is a deep policy debate.

As a final point, Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was

oh noes.

[Girl from the North Country]

Stacey Abrams is a real, live heroine. May her example spread, flower and fruit throughout the land.

[Pro Bono]

Marty, you may reject Biden, but Biden will not reject you.

Which is the opposite of Trump's attitude to anyone who doesn't back him.

[cleek]

more on this.

it took a slightly less offensive version of Trump to eek out a victory with tons of Republicans not liking Trump personally. We elected a racist 70 plus year old white male and declared a victory for the left.

this is utterly delusional.

look at what Marty's trying to pull here. "conservatives" are going to pretend they never supported Trump personally. despite the party's unanimous refusal to try to rebuke him in any way, for anything he did, ever. it was 99.44% support, all the time, in all things. except for those few times they'd mumble something about his tweets not being 'helpful'. such brave men and women! much moral compass.

oh sure, part of that is because they wouldn't want to be seen agreeing with the Democrats about anything - but that's a pathetic as supporting Trump directly, which they did solidly.

and we're going to hear that Biden is just as bad because %HANDWAVING%. "racist"! Biden the racist who served 8 years as Obama's VP and who just got elected alongside a Jamaican/Indian woman. Biden, a genial back-slapping centrist is going to be cast as Trump's mirror image just so "conservatives" can pretend supporting Biden is the same as supporting and defending a flaming sack of garbage.

fuck that.

[cleek]

cleanup on aisle three.

[CharlesWT]

if you don't count healthcare, infrastructure, climate, police reform, COVID, taxes, schools, etc, etc ...

Even if with the presidency and clear majorities in both houses of congress they wouldn't get a lot of that done. They just wouldn't have the bandwith. And probably not enough political capital.

[bobbyp]

Well, now that everybody is going to be telling Joe Biden what to do, I might as well jump in with this.

And AOC has an interesting interview in the Times here.

Looks like a return to your regularly scheduled programming. Good luck, Joey.

[bobbyp]

Marty and Ralph Nader walk into a bar.

"How's it going, Marty?" asked Ralph.

"Oh, the usual shit, Ralph. Another meaningless election between two unlikable nobodies, that don't have any policies that I like."

Yeah. They're both the same, right?"

"Well, maybe. But saying that gives me a lot of social cover for my otherwise reprehensible policy preferences. My turn to buy?"

[Girl from the North Country]

Meanwhile, my homies and I (varying degrees of leftiness) are drinking champagne with multiple toasts to Joe and Kamila and Stacey Abrams...

[cleek]

bobby indeed.

Trump hit 95% job approval among Republicans in Gallup's most recent poll. his highest mark ever.

[Tony P.]

Marty: As a final point, Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was. His pablum crap about uniting the country is the most insulting form of bullshit. He doesn't represent sny significant policy, could be full stop, that I agree with.

I wonder in what sense He, Trump was never Marty's president. Maybe Marty reliably piping up to support His policies, excuse or outright defend His outrages, and parrot His bullshit assertions, right here in these archived pages, was just a bad 4-year-long dream.

I do agree with Marty that talk of "uniting the country" is bullshit. As long as the likes of Marty keep thinking that they are the only Real Americans(TM) and those of us who share young Tommy Jefferson's "decent respect to the opinions of mankind" are not, we don't have a single country to unite.

Marty: I feel fine GftNC, this is all just politics

Yeah. It's just a sport where we get to root for our favorite team and then trade recipes or discuss music afterwards. It has nothing to do with real life stuff like death or taxes. Whether we root for the Red Sox or the Yankees says no more about our morality or decency than whether we root for Team Blue or Team Orange.

--TP

[russell]

a slightly less offensive version of Trump

That is a really weird take on Joe Biden.

His pablum crap about uniting the country is the most insulting form of bullshit.

Agreed that it's unrealistic. More's the pity.

Odd that you should find it insulting. It's like taking offense at somebody wishing you well, or thinking the best of you.

You could be right as far as your predictions, see also AOC's comments in bobbyp's link. The (D)'s have neglected the fine art of running everywhere, all the time. Let's hope they bring their game up over the next couple of years.

Sorry you're feeling unrepresented by the folks in DC. Welcome to the club.

[wj]

I suspect Nigel (11:18) is right. Georgia may well be THE story of this election.

It will be telling if the Democrats manage to flip both Senate seats in January. Especially since it's a special election, and historically they have difficulties turning out their voters for those.

[russell]

Stacey Abrams is a real, live heroine.

If the (D)'s have any sense at all, they will give Abrams responsibility for GOTV at the national level, and then stay the hell out of her way.

[Pro Bono]

He doesn't represent any significant policy, could be full stop, that I agree with.

Are you saying that you're against taking global warming seriously?

The rest of the world is relieved that the president of the USA will no longer be indifferent to environmental destruction. Albeit concerned that Marty's friends in the Senate will try to stop him doing anything about it.

[wj]

I do agree with Marty that talk of "uniting the country" is bullshit.

I don't think that's right. It may be unrealistic. Delusional, even. But I think he honestly believes that it is a) desirable, and b) possible. So "bullshit" isn't really the term. Even if you disabree with a) or b) or both.

[Girl from the North Country]

russell @12.53; completely agree.

[wj]

If the (D)'s have any sense at all, they will give Abrams responsibility for GOTV at the national level, and then stay the hell out of her way.

Nope. If they have any sense, they will put her in charge of voter registration, as well as GOTV. And then give her all the support and backing they can muster. Just GOTV isn't adequate for what they need. And just staying out of her way isn't either.

[Girl from the North Country]

BTW, should have made clear: FWIW even my right-wing friends here are overjoyed and texting happiness and relief.

[Girl from the North Country]

It's impossible to overstate the contempt and dislike in which Trump has been held here, by decent people of EVERY political stripe.

[John Thullen]

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/11/a-sober-assessment

There is nothing for it except NOT remaining sober. In any sense of the word.

I don't see a way through as one country.

The bullshit Republican Party governing me via the malignant, cheating, ruthless methods by which they have fucked our institutions for eternity, regardless of elections, is their signature on THEIR death warrant.

If my candidates are denied governance whether they win OR lose, we move from checks and balances to the catastrophic end game.

[bobbyp]

Are you saying that you're against taking global warming seriously?

He will never say that, but he will resolutely oppose any serious public policy that would effectively address this existential threat.

You could insert "racism" in that sentence, and you would have the same result, because Marty would assert (in deeply aggrieved language) that structural racism simply does not exist.

[wj]

For anyone convinced that, policy-wise (as opposed to tone-wise) Biden will be no different than Trump, try reading this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-first-executive-orders-measures/2020/11/07/9fb9c1d0-210b-11eb-b532-05c751cd5dc2_story.html

[cleek]

He will never say that, but he will resolutely oppose any serious public policy that would effectively address this existential threat.

as long as it's proposed by a Democrat.

[cleek]

Even if with the presidency and clear majorities in both houses of congress they wouldn't get a lot of that done.

no, they won't get it all done. but they did run on it. they campaigned on it. it was, in fact, the central point of the Dem message.

Dems ran on the issues. GOP ran on Be Afraid of Democrats!

[Mike S]

According to the GOP's 2016 election standards Biden just won a historic landslide victory. According to the GOP'S 2000 election standards Biden has all the mandate and political capital he wants.

And the idea that "nothing will actually change" is just extremely silly. All the damage to our country that won't occur over the next 4 years because Trump is gone is not meaningless. Getting Bill Barr out of DOJ, and Stephen Miller out of the White House, for starters, will greatly improve our country.

[wj]

Getting Bill Barr out of DOJ, and Stephen Miller out of the White House, for starters, will greatly improve our country.

Amen! Although there are a lot of other reality-challenged ideologues scattered across various technical agencies, from the BLM to the National Weather Service, who we will be well rid of as well. Not as high profile, perhaps, but still damaging. Often significantly.

[novakant]

OK that was fun, I wish Biden / Harris all the best and hope they don't drag us into another war - who knows, maybe they'll actually end one or two. And then there's climate change.

Now back to Covid and Brexit, meh.

[cleek]

I do agree with Marty that talk of "uniting the country" is bullshit.

i think Biden means it, and wishes it could happen.

place you bets on the number of days till McConnell announces his desire to make Biden a one-term president.

[Tony P.]

wj,

What does "uniting the country" mean, operationally? That's not snark. I really would like to know.

Are there policies Biden, Pelosi, and (in our wildest fantasies) Schumer could champion (or in our even wilder fantasies, enact) that would make He, Trump's supporters feel less inclined to abuse asylum seekers, disenfranchise poor people, dismiss science, cling to conspiracy theories, or think of themselves as the only remaining True Americans? I'm open to suggestions.

--TP

[cleek]

Are there policies Biden, Pelosi, and (in our wildest fantasies) Schumer could champion...

i don't think it's about policies. i think it's more about wishing partisanship would subside enough to get people to stop saying shit like "Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was". it's not going to, though. it's going to keep getting worse.

it would take a cataclysmic outside event to get us to put that aside. and even then...

[John Thullen]

Marty also wrote:

"But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that."

Substitute "all those other countries" with "all those Americans to the left of Mitch McConnell" and we can understand why those other countries are building up their nuclear weapons arsenals and aiming half of them at America.

Despicable, subhuman, self-preening nationalism, which tragically is infecting all those other countries as well as conservative, crypto-religious Other-haters have their way across the globe.

It'll be interesting to see, post-pandemic, how many counties open their borders to we arrogant ugly American jagoff treaty-breaking know-it-alls again.

These conservative Trump filth haven't just ruined America, they have ruined the world for decent Americans as well and I hate their guts for it.

[russell]

Speaking personally, I would be happy to see other countries "like us again". Or at least, a different set of countries "like us again".

Anyone in the EU, for instance, rather than Saudi Arabia, whose nationals were 15 of the 19 on 9/11, who have been one of the biggest sponsors of militant theocratic Islam around the world, and whose leader ordered the murder and dismemberment of a US person for the crime of criticizing him.

And the dismissive "like" here refers in reality to a range of things. Respect, trust, recognition of common interests. Recognition of shared values, in some cases. A sense that relationships can be more than purely transactional.

Why that is something to dismiss or disparage is beyond me.

[wj]

Tony,

Poicies that would make Trump's supporters feel less inclined to abuse asylum seekers, or disenfranchise poor people? Perhaps not. Certainly not quickly.

And enthusiasm for conspiracy theories seems to me to be an incurable mental disease. (One not, in my experience, limited to the right.) So no joy there either.

On the other hand, get them over dismissing science? I think that's doable. A steady stream of stuff that they can see helps them, and which is prominently labeled as the result of science -- I think that's the path forward. The fruits of science aren't the problem. It is, if you'll pardon me, the PR that's been the problem.

As for thinking of themselves as the only remaining True Americans? (Which might start to address the first problems.) I look at the incredible change in how homosexuals are regarded. Even on the right (albeit, admittedly, less so). It's a matter of them finding themselves coworkers and friends with, even related to, people who are visibly different. See stories like this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/11/07/religion-trump-muslim-ban/

Some of that is obviously happening already with the younger generations. But even the older bigots may discover their beloved grandchildren bringing home potential spouses who are very different. Once, such kids would have gotten disinherited and generally booted out of the family. Now? Not so much.

[Girl from the North Country]

But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.

***

Why that is something to dismiss or disparage is beyond me.

This is a very interesting phenomenon which often masquerades as American exceptionalism i.e. "We're the greatest nation on earth, we don't need anybody else". It is usually based on a tremendous insecurity e.g. "they all hate us anyway, so who needs them?" In fact Marty has displayed some of this attitude before (although not quite as nakedly) and had to be reminded of the times that America's allies have supported her, which he has never acknowledged. I didn't respond to it myself, because what on earth can you say to such a statement?

[Girl from the North Country]

By the way, I see above I called the Vice President elect Kamila Harris. It is of course Kamala Harris. Sorry, soon-to-be Madam Vice-President.

[nous]

I imagine that if we were to map out the edges of our political islands from the continuous continental drift of partisan politics, that all of the young/old, urban/rural, family values/LGBTQ rights divides would resolve into those who embrace pluralism and those who reject it. The older and more rural one is, the more potential there is to be alienated by the culture shock of difference. Not to say that those disconnects are inherent in age or cultural homogeneity, it's just a heuristic for thinking about openness and identification.

In my personal sphere I have a much wider range of individuals than do my HS classmates that did not go to college and did not move more than 60 miles away from their rural home in the midwest. The people who matter to me are, as a whole, less like me than are the people that matter to my classmates. I've been alienated by and had to reconcile more questions about my own world than have they.

William Gibson once wrote that the future was already here, it just wasn't evenly distributed. Well, the future is pushing itself in faster and harder now than ever and the groups that have had to do the least to adapt to the demands of the future are finding themselves with a much bigger and faster adaptive pressure than what I have gone through in the 30-some years that I have been out in the wider world.

I don't know how to help them manage that pressure, but I can't let the try to slow their adaptation down because they are killing us all with their choices.

[Cleek]

"But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that."

Fuck Your Feelings as foreign policy

Empathy deficiency disorder

[wj]

the times that America's allies have supported her,

Including, it must be noted, the one and only time that NATO's mutual defense provision has actually been invoked. Which quite gives the lie to the claim that they are freeloading on us.

[Marty]

TP, the way people root is no different. We are a nation of winners and losers. The losers are to be insulted and disparaged, the winners disparaged and their accomplishments demanded. We are a nation that infers intent from short term success or failure.

We just can't recognize each othrrs successes along with the failures, it is beyond our ability to assume good will from our opponents.

People actually hate each other over being a Democrat or a Republican. Friends, family, and even soouses. "I just can't get past the fact that you support Trump" was the proximate cause of two divorces I know of.

Nothing exceeds that lack of respect except perhaps the relationships like the Sunni and Shiite who shot their neighbors when Baghdad was freed.

And no I don't support the Democrats subverting our policies to the whims of 90 other countries, most of whom dislike us in the first place so we can get poorer as a country while they all get richer and stronger.

Just look at how we were treated when we asked our closest friends to pay their fair share into NATO. Suddenly we were risky as an ally and no one should trust us.

The climate accords required levels of sacrifice from us demanded of literally no one else in the world, the Iran accords were just a way for Iran to get permission to build a nuclear weapon, while maintaining there status as the largestexporter of terror in the world.

That same stupid logic has us discussing defunding police because criminals get shot if they don't obey police commands. WTF.

I'm happy with th science on climate change, and our current pace of addressing it. Our economy is pushing climate change solutions faster than any government could successfully achieve.

If you go look at my first comments on Covid I said we couldnt successfully do many of the things people kept saying we had to do, even Biden is no longer talking about broad based tracking and tracing, he has acknowledged that he won't have the authority to shut down anything. His Covid policy is literally a document describing what we have done so far.

Its all politics. The left spent four years trying to delegitimize the current administration using every court and prosecutor and news station they could but when the Biden win gets a lawsuit it is simply unacceptable that anyone would question the legitimacy or integrity of our election system.

Its all about winning and losing with no honest evaluation of what actually happens in between the contests.

That's what I meant.

[russell]

People actually hate each other over being a Democrat or a Republican. Friends, family, and even soouses. "I just can't get past the fact that you support Trump" was the proximate cause of two divorces I know of.

Those things are not the same. "I can't past the fact that you support Trump" is not the same as (D) vs (R).

Its all about winning and losing with no honest evaluation of what actually happens in between the contests.

Since you are addressing this to this community, i.e. the readers of ObWi, I'll respond in terms of this community.

What you've said here is not true of this community.

Maybe you were referring to some other group of people.

[liberal japonicus]

If you go look at my first comments on Covid I said we couldnt successfully do many of the things people kept saying we had to do, even Biden is no longer talking about broad based tracking and tracing, he has acknowledged that he won't have the authority to shut down anything. His Covid policy is literally a document describing what we have done so far.

This is an interesting take on those discussions. I was pretty involved in them, having just returned from Korea and comparing Korean and Japanese efforts and I too pointed out that many of the things that were needed would be very difficult in light of the way the US (and the West) places individualism above the common good. However, I had no idea whatsoever that the Trump led administration would actively work against those measures. I suppose the left stopped him from doing anything...

As I said before, Trump would have won had he made even the mildest of handwaves at appropriately dealing with the virus. But he couldn't, because that was not in his nature. When you are a self-centered prick, you can't help but see the world in the way you want it to.

[russell]

His Covid policy is literally a document describing what we have done so far.

What "we" have "done so far" is... what, exactly?

[cleek]

but when the Biden win gets a lawsuit it is simply unacceptable that anyone would question the legitimacy or integrity of our election system.

Trump spent the last five years questioning the legitimacy and integrity of our election system. and in recent months he stepped it up to a truly revolting degree. he made it his re-election strategy, in fact: get his supporters to vote in-person then challenge the legitimacy of mail-in votes. and your party, top (from Kavanaugh's lunacy) to bottom (armed assholes threatening poll workers), fell in line behind him.

the last five years have been a flood of Trump nonsense.

let it go.

move on.

get your party to a better place.

[cleek]

what nous said.

[Girl from the North Country]

And no I don't support the Democrats subverting our policies to the whims of 90 other countries

And nobody would ever expect this. But this was not what you said.

most of whom dislike us in the first place so we can get poorer as a country while they all get richer and stronger.

Just look at how we were treated when we asked our closest friends to pay their fair share into NATO.

All of this is straight out of the Trump playbook, Marty, and is arrant nonsense. You may have disliked Trump, but you swallowed his bullshit hook line and sinker.

You know, it appears that your original comment in the middle of the night may have been phrased more combatively and insultingly than your actual opinions merited. This is certainly an interesting approach to people you have often said you like, respect and value. But perhaps, to quote russell:

Maybe you were referring to some other group of people.

[Girl from the North Country]

Yes, I should have said: I also second what nous said.

[wj]

I don't support the Democrats subverting our policies to the whims of 90 other countries, most of whom dislike us in the first place so we can get poorer as a country while they all get richer and stronger.

No question, they got richer (and thus stronger) in part thanks to our support. But how did we get poorer? As far as I can see, we got richer, too.** Not least because they, being richer, can buy stuff from us, to our profit.

Granted, we may have become relatively less rich. But that is by no means the same as poorer in any absolute sense. It is entirely possible for everybody to get absolutely richer -- and indeed, that is what has happened.

** Not only do we have historical records on this. I've got personal memories of all the stuff the everybody, even our poor, routinely has today that nobody had, or could have, when I was young.

[Nigel]

If the (D)'s have any sense at all, they will give Abrams responsibility for GOTV at the national level, and then stay the hell out of her way.

As wj said, it’s about more than just GOTV.
(O’Rourke’s efforts in Texas since his run have not been negligible, either., though there’s further to go.)

It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.

[Nigel]

Maybe this is what’s terrifying Marty ?

Lindsey Graham: If Trump concedes election, Republicans will 'never' elect another president
https://thehill.com/homenews/525063-lindsey-graham-if-trump-concedes-election-republicans-will-never-elect-another

[wj]

It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.

It varies. For example, Biden can drop Trump's trade wars, which have severely damaged rural areas. But some of the markets lost (e.g. soybeans) have new suppliers. Those simply aren't coming back. Those new suppliers couldn't break in before. But now they've gotten in, and we can't compete on price, now that they're established.

[wj]

From Nigel's link

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) warned that President Trump should not concede defeat in the 2020 presidential election in part because Republicans will "never" be able to elect another president from their party again.

All this Republican can say is, if by "our party" he means the Trumpists, "Senator, from your lips to God's ears!" Until we purge those scum, we shouldn't elect a President. Nor any of them to Congress, or state office, or....

[Nigel]

I was charmed by the ABC news tweet showing fireworks over London ascribing them to celebration of Biden’s victory,
Someone must have told them of our Guy Fawkes celebrations at this time of the year, as they’ve now deleted it.

[sapient]

It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.

If by "rural voters" you mean "Republican rural voters", policies aren't really what they want. They want racism.

I live in a gerrymandered district* in Virginia. Charlottesville and the surrounding county votes blue, but much of the remaining part of the district is populated by "rural voters." Driving south towards North Carolina, where a relative lives whom I visit from time to time, we pass Liberty University (Falwell Country). Property after property has confederate flags, Trump signs, etc. From the highway, about 1/2 way to my destination, one can see a giant Confederate flag flying proudly.

We had a wonderful D candidate this time: Cameron Webb, African-American physician, lawyer, compassionate family man, great speaker - just a lovely human being with some thoughts and experience about health care, etc. Do you really think that Democratic policies put forth by this immensely qualified person would help "rural voters"? Yes. Would they appeal to rural voters? Not the ones in my district. Not on your life. Instead, they voted for this guy. Nice "policies" ("voting to garnish wages from county residents who had outstanding ambulance bills and to hike ambulance fees, rather than raise taxes to cover the cost of EMS services").

I'm not going to vote for anyone with Bob Good's preferred "policies." So, no "rural voter policies" for me, thanks.

*(Although we voted for a constitutional amendment to make redistricting more fair, I fear that it's a scam to empower Republicans, but I digress. Our district will change, and I hope I'm wrong, and it ends up being for the better.)

[Tony P.]

Marty: We are a nation of winners and losers. The losers are to be insulted and disparaged, the winners disparaged and their accomplishments demanded. We are a nation that infers intent from short term success or failure.

Marty,

Don't know about you or whoever it is you include in "we", but my inclination is to disparage morons and assholes for being morons and assholes, not for being winners or losers.

He, Trump was a moron and an asshole before 2016 and He will be a moron and an asshole after 2020. Mitch McConnell is not a moron, just an asshole; I don't so much "disparage" him as despise him. Whatever Lindsay Graham is, I add a dash of pity to my loathing of him. No pity for Susan Collins, just contempt. No losers I'm scorning here, except for He, Trump.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is probably a winner you "disparage". So maybe you don't even include yourself in this "we" you're talking about.

As for "infer(ing) intent from short-term success or failure", I don't know how you manage to get through life without making inferences in general and about intent in particular. To paraphrase Mark Twain, even a cat knows the difference between being kicked and being tripped over.

And I wish you'd give an example of somebody (liberal OR conservative) inferring intent from "short-term success or failure".

--TP

[nous]

The only way forward in the US as far as I can tell is for the diverse majority interested in the project of collective governance to implement policies by whatever available means that set up a framework for restorative practices (https://sherrymccreedy.weebly.com/resources.html) and continue to press for more and wider justice in our society. If those who oppose this want a seat at the table and a voice in the discussion, then they need to engage in the process of restoration. If not, then they can observe and they can disrupt and they can continue the same crap that has brought us to these straits. And if they push to fight, well, we can't stop them.

And, as now, I expect that those who have the comfort of privilege will continue to exempt themselves from any such efforts for reconciliation and try to use the partisan conflict for their own gain.

[liberal japonicus]

One thing this underlines for me is that the Dems labor under a similar challenge that African Americans and women have for, well, forever, which is that in terms of outcomes, anything they do can't just be as good, but has to be x% better than what Republicans do. Not really sure what the exact figure is for the meme, but it's the same sort of feeling. I suppose, in keeping with the title, the good thing is that the bar for exceeding Republican competency is at an all time low...

[wj]

as now, I expect that those who have the comfort of privilege will continue to exempt themselves from any such efforts for reconciliation and try to use the partisan conflict for their own gain.

I think it's fair to say that I am among those who, at least to some extent, "have the comfort of privilege." And yet, I don't see myself exempting myself, or even attempting to exempt myself, from any efforts towards reconciliation. So I really think that your statement should be amended to say "some of those".

No argument that there will be too many of them who do. But the fact that many do not is a nontrivial factor in our prospect for eventual success.

[nous]

wj - appreciate that, but while we both undoubtedly have privilege, we do not have so much of it that we can exempt ourselves from anything on the scale of what I'm talking about. No luxury survival silos for ecological collapse or moving to our compound in Denmark if war erupts.

We are imbricated in our communities.

[bobbyp]

It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.

I see this all the time. It is a common meme. But the real question is this: Just what is it that they want?

They want safety.
They want prosperity.
They want community.

Well, golly gee. That's what just about anybody wants. So what to do? What have Dems done? Just for starters (pretty basic stuff):

AAA
REA
Medicare
Social Security

What have Republicans done for them? NOT ONE FUCKING THING.

The rurals, specifically farmers, are one of the most coddled political constituencies in our nation. They get a good deal of the benefits of "socialism" as commonly (if mistakenly) understood. But some public school teacher wants the same fucking thing they want, well that's pure communism. We can't have that I guess.

But what is "hollowing out" our rural areas? Well, it's not some urban black single mother trying to get by on our criminally deficient social safety net, that's for sure. It's not an illegal picking our fruit and vegetables for pennies while paying taxes into social security for benefits they will never see.

Perhaps one should look at the corporatization of the agricultural sector? The WalMartization of our retail sector? The grinding capitalist propensity to commodify just every fucking thing so it can be priced and traded. What is "community" worth?

There was a time when the rurals rose up against the railroads and big money. They were saved by New Deal liberals. Fat and happy, they reverted to type. More's the pity for that.

Marty speaks of "elites". He has no fucking clue. You don't find "elites" in hollywood or Harvard Square. You find them in corporate suites and Wall Street.

Those fuckers want it all, and the Martys of the world glady want to help them take it. And you know the funny thing? They have to use government policy to do this. But Democrats are the "redistributionists".

Fuck that.

/rant

[wj]

nous - fair enough. But then "extreme privilege."** There are, as you say, rather a lot of folks with some notable level of privilege, but who don't have the option of just up and moving away from the results of any disaster their actions (or inactions) produces. And don't act like they do.

** And a solid argument it is for substantially higher top level imcome, and especially top level inheritance, taxes.

[russell]

Marty is an elite. Worse, he's a coastal elite.

So, factor that in.

Not trying to stick it to Marty, really. Just saying. By any measure you want to pick from, Marty is one of the elite.

[bobbyp]

nous,
I could not get your link to work. Could you check that?

I agree wholeheartedly with what you have written above. Those who have the stuff will fight to keep it, and those who don't have the stuff will fight to get their rightful share.

Some things never change.

[Donald]

I think you find elites in various places. What matters is what policies they support.

https://cepr.net/changes-that-would-make-a-difference-in-the-biden-administration/

[nous]

bobbyp - the link works, but for some reason typepad decided that the closing parenthesis is part of the url. Delete that in the browser and you should be good to go.

[Donald]

And another thing—

https://inthesetimes.com/article/joe-biden-yemen-war-saudi-arabia-presidential-election-foreign-policy

[bobbyp]

Donald,

Dean Baker (one of my go to reads) is always pounding the same drum, but like one's favorite song, it is always worth listening to. From your cite, Dean writes:

"the bad guys have deliberately structured the market in ways that redistribute income upward."

It is no more "natural" for a small group to corner all the wealth in a market economy (marx notwithstanding) than it was for feudal lords to grab everything that wasn't nailed down.

The current distribution of wealth in this country is, simply put, a deliberately constructed crime.

[CharlesWT]

..., but who don't have the option of just up and moving away from the results of any disaster their actions (or inactions) produces.

Certainly a lot of Californians moving to Texas and other states...

[wj]

Certainly a lot of Californians moving to Texas and other states...

In the course of which, Texas, specifically Texas' politics, is being changed rather notably in the direction of California. Which doesn't seem like the course one would expect, if those who moved saw conditions in California as a disaster.

[liberal japonicus]

This popped up a few times on my FB (As I've explained before, where I'm from has me FB friends with quite a few Trump voters and I don't have discussion there, so I can't be bothered the way I am here) so it may be of interest, in a forensic sort of way, to the Marxists here. Here's the link, but I also cut and pasted the article so you don't have to go clicking.

https://www.theintelligencer.net/opinion/editorials/2020/10/why-dislike-trump/

For anyone not supporting Trump:

Do you dislike that he made cruelty to animals a felony? Do you dislike that he gave billions to stop the opioid crisis? He destroyed ISIS, killed how many terrorists without going to war and oh, wait, everyone said we’d be in World War III by now with North Korea. Do you dislike him because we are the largest producer of oil? Do you dislike him because he wanted to build a wall to keep criminals and drugs from coming in?

Do you dislike him because he just slashed the price for medications, in some cases 50%, which is driving Big Pharma nuts? Do you dislike that he signed a law ending the gag-order on pharmacists that prevented them from sharing money-saving options on prescriptions? Do you dislike that he signed the Save Our Seas Act, which funds $10 million per year to clean tons of plastic and garbage from the oceans?

Do you dislike that he signed a bill for airports to provide breast-feeding stations for nursing moms? Do you dislike that he signed the biggest wilderness protection and conservation bill in a decade, designating 375,000 acres as protected land? Do you dislike that he loves America and puts Americans first? Do dislike that he made a gay man the ambassador to Germany and then asked him to clean up national security and unclassified as much of it as possible for transparency?
Do you dislike that he’s kept almost every campaign promise (with ZERO support from Congress, who work against him daily) plus 100 more promises because Washington was much more broken than he thought? Do you dislike that he works for free, donating his salary to different charities? Do you dislike that he’s done more for the black community than every other president? Do you dislike that he listened to Senator Scott and passed Invest In Opportunity Zones to help minorities? Do you dislike that he passed prison reform, which gives people a second chance and has made quite a huge difference for the black communities? Do you dislike that he passed VA reforms to benefit the very people who served our country and defend our freedom? Do you dislike that he’s winning and signing new trade deals that benefit Americans, instead of costing us more? Do you dislike that he loves his flag and his country? Do you dislike that he calls out and has shown all of us that they ARE Fake News, and they twist the truth to control and mislead the people and he is trying to protect us from this? Do you dislike that he’s ending wars? Do you dislike that he has made a commitment to end child-trafficking and crimes against humanity and has made 1000’s of arrests already? Do you dislike he’s brought home over 40 Americans held captive, the last one from Iran? Do you dislike that he’s proven he was right about the Deep State and he was spied on? Do you dislike that he was a Billionaire before he ran for President and now is worth at least 1/3 less... because he loves America THAT MUCH? Do you dislike that he’s making the world pay their fair share for the UN for protection? Do you dislike that he respects cops, veterans, ICE & First Responders? Do you dislike that he does not sell out America to other countries, like the leaders prior to him have done? Could it be possible that the ones who SELL OUT America to line their pockets OWN THE MEDIA AND HOLLYWOOD and hate him so much for trying to expose them and hate him for putting the PEOPLE first that they manipulate our thinking and control the information we get to steer US to hate him? These people benefit when you hate the man trying to stop them... so they won’t have to give up the wealth they have gotten and continue to get thru mass taxation and control. Wouldn’t you at least want to RESEARCH this possibility? Could 65,000 Americans already know the TRUTH... that he has done more for blacks in the last 20 years than our last 5 Presidents put together and is actually NOT a racist but you believe he is because it has been drilled into your head and yet you’ve never researched his accomplishments? You can start by watching those daily briefings he did during the lockdown (all on line) and then watching the coverage on the Main Stream Media and how they twisted it. Do you actually believe the President encouraged America to inject bleach? Did you research the effects of UV LIGHT which is used to disinfect SCHOOL BUSES and medical equipment and is also being used as a treatment for bacteria and respiratory infections by injecting it into humans (search Healight but don’t use Google... they are part of the Deep State and manipulate what we see! And they sell our info, which is why you see merchandise pop up the day after you searched for something! Use Duckduckgo)!!! They want you to believe he is stupid because if you figure out that he isn’t, they will lose billions of dollars and all their control. I know... it is hard to let go of what you believed to be true for most of your life. You are not alone. But your BLIND hatred of this man who is literally trying to save us from the far Left, radical Socialists is going to be detrimental to our country if you continue to support their hatred. They are teaching hatred and separation... even in families! You are not allowed to agree with “part” of their agenda and think for yourself; you must repeat their FULL belief system or name-calling and insults ensue... this is the definition of a cult! All or nothing! They despise LAW AND ORDER. Just look around you. He supports it, so we are safe and can live in a civilized society. He stands for unity and America first.
You will be amazed at how much more peace comes into your life when you turn off the FAKE NEWS and turn on the true America, where we focus on what unites us, not what divides us. The media hated him from day one. Impeachment was on the table before he was elected. They said Impeach the mother Fuc#^*r....but his rhetoric is bad? He’s never given a chance yet he’s done more in 4 years than any president with zero help from the media or democrats. Results don’t lie onto the radical left.
How dare he care so much about America. Love it or leave it.
Do your research... I have. All of these are verifiable things Trump has done! And verifiable that the media twists his words!
I just want people to be informed and to make their own opinions not just what we are told mostly by MSM. But we will not burn loot and murder like the socialist leftist did to ruin many cities. Conservatives will regroup and come up with policies and a candidate to stem socialism and the erosion of our liberties. I do wish the best of luck but they must remember about 1/2 of America did not vote for socialism.

The most hilarious thing is that they post it without a reference and _always_ include the section about "Do your research... I have." I suppose cutting and pasting could be defined as 'doing the research', but...

[Nigel]

AOC has said some interesting and for some unpopular things about the hopeless lack of organisation in parts od the Democrats campaign.
This is a very interesting thread which suggests that she is not wrong:
https://twitter.com/rgcooke/status/1325598436888961024

[Nigel]

Is this funny, or chilling, or just WTAF ?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/video-televangelist-kenneth-copeland-laugh-biden-victory.html

[cleek]

I do wish the best of luck but they must remember about 1/2 of America did not vote for socialism.

so more than half did?

wow.

socialism [whatever that means] it is, then!

[John Thullen]

RIP Norm Crosby.

His passing is a great apostrophe for the world.

I wish I could give the urology at his funeral service.