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October 15, 2020

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Can it possibly mean of those that have NOT voted, Trump leads by 11%? Eeep.

Of course, you can also read it as "Amongst those who might ultimately fail to vote, Trump leads by 11%." Definitely a downside there, to lead only among potential non-voters.

OK, I thought I should after all in case you wanted to see it. The name of the whole exposee is "Deterring Democracy", and as far as I can see they haven't yet put up the piece from last night about the hispanic vote. But sometimes it takes 24 hours after something airs, for some reason, so anybody interested can keep checking the link. In the meantime, it has all the previous stuff about the 3.5 million black voters who were deterred, by the "Superpredator" ads etc.

https://www.channel4.com/news/deterring-democracy

OK, this is some of it, for anybody interested.

https://www.channel4.com/news/how-the-trump-campaign-is-targeting-hispanic-voters

Watching again, I see I slightly misremembered. It was a Trump-supporting Cuban radio personality, DJ and enthusiastic social media influencer who said (when asked about the "Biden is a paedophile" stuff) that he didn't "necessarily" believe that Biden was a paedophile, but that there was certainly something odd and untoward about Biden's interactions with children and women....

Not that it will matter to people propagandized otherwise, but I've noticed in the Biden campaign clips I've watched that he puts his hands on everyone. Not just women and children, but men, boys...humans. It's boundary-violating by contemporary standards (in my reading of contemporary standards), but it seems to be core to how he relates to people.

It's boundary-violating by contemporary standards (in my reading of contemporary standards)

But not in my reading of the mid-20th century, Lower Middle Class, culture in which he and I were both raised. It violates my personal boundaries, and always has. But I have to say it was entirely SOP -- that was how the men behaved, and were expected to behaved. Pretty clearly for him, the well-learned reflexes are, at best, contained.

">half of Republicans think top Democrats are running a secret child prostitution ring. and, somehow, even more of them believe Trump is working to dismantle a child prostitution ring run by top Democrats.

but yes Clinton was too smart.

dagnabbit

https://twitter.com/keith___m/status/1320058819276345345/photo/1

On the subject of Joe Biden's physical inappropriateness, I have never seen him be what I would consider inappropriate with a kid, possibly because to me he has a totally benign vibe (not a comment on his politics or his views), but I can see how in this day and age his touchy-feeliness with women is probably a bit unwise. But again, it doesn't feel creepy to me. I'm interested in wj's 01.32, because I can totally see what he means about women and kids, but I would be surprised to learn that in Lower Middle Class America in the mid-20th century that kind of tactileness (is this a word?) between adult men was normal. I think it has become so, pre-Covid, but more in the 21st century. But I could be wrong.

wj and GftNC: My take on it is that the US is so diverse, it's impossible to generalize, especially about earlier eras when (she theorizes from no data) there was less of an effect of mass culture. The ethnic diversity alone would suggest a variety of boundary assumptions.

But my experience was quite different from wj's, if I'm reading him correctly. I don't remember a lot of touching among the men when I was a kid. On my dad's side that would be mostly first generation (i.e. born here to immigrant parents) Italians. But then, my dad was a particularly reserved guy, quite a bit more so even than his brothers. So even there it's hard to generalize.

On my mom's side I have a lot less data, since my grandfather was dead and I had only one uncle. But those people were rural and Baptist. There was very little touching or warmth in public, period.

It might be relevant that Biden is Irish. Although I became kind of an Ireland fangirl at an early age, I didn't really have a lot of experience with Irish-American adults when I aws a kid.

Janie, there were super-rigid (albeit completely unspoken) restrictions on the kinds on touching that was acceptable. Get outside those and you were, indeed, toast. But it was pretty rampant as long as you didn't cross a line. Some ethnic variation -- more touching as I recall with Irish and Italian (Catholic?) vs English or Scandinavian.

I can't supply lots of details, not only due to time, but because I personally recoiled on watching. But the memory of the recoil is quite clear.

It also occurs to me in retrospect that a lot of the man-on-man touching disappeared when homosexuality began to be mentionable. Before then, it wasn't a problem because it just wasn't thinkable (at least in that subculture). Once it was thinkable, it was a critical problem . . . until, a few decades later, it ceased to be social death.

On the subject of Joe Biden's physical inappropriateness, I have never seen him be what I would consider inappropriate with a kid, possibly because to me he has a totally benign vibe (not a comment on his politics or his views), but I can see how in this day and age his touchy-feeliness with women is probably a bit unwise. But again, it doesn't feel creepy to me.

I feel the same way. (Me too?)

Anyway, I think this topic is extremely interesting, because what has been "appropriate", "tolerated", "rude", "assault" has changed dramatically during my lifetime. It's difficult to talk about because people are triggered by it in a way that I'm not.

During my adulthood, I had to learn to socially hug people outside my family. Although growing up, my immediate family (siblings) weren't averse to touching, and my mother kissed us, sometimes on the lips, with no weird vibes, we didn't hug non-family. But all of the sudden, in my thirties or forties, everyone hugged everyone constantly (friends) to the point that it seemed offensive not to hug. I had to navigate: do I hug my lunch companion as a hello or goodbye? Once I felt comfortable with all of this, and actually enjoyed it, hugging came off the table again (right before the pandemic, which saved us all from these decisions).

While all of this hugging culture was happening, I extended my hand to meet a work colleague (male, and I am female) from India. He seemed unenthusiastic but extended his hand back to me, but after our handshake, I felt that I had violated boundaries. I went home, read up, and maybe I did make him uncomfortable.

Anyway, I'm not a huge guardian of my body - I certainly wouldn't want someone fondling my "private parts" uninvited, but I define that fairly narrowly. I didn't realize how different other people felt about it all.

I don't remember a lot of touching among the men when I was a kid.

That's why you have sports...

Not just for the sports themselves, but for the celebrations of victory. Or even considerations in defeat. Which lets the unathletic among us play, too.

"Fist-bumps", for those for whom "handshakes" are just too intimate.

...doing 'VIRTUAL elbow-bumps' now, of course.

i've always been a big fan of the short eyes-averted nod.

Personally, I'm a big fan of hugging and kissing, and miss it during the Covid thing, but then, I come from a hugely affectionate and demonstrative family, so Biden's way looks OK to me. I also love the way men have relaxed about hugging and pounding each other's backs, as opposed to the handshakes of yore. But I admit it does make it awkward when you encounter someone who, for whatever reason (usually a vibe thing), you don't feel like hugging.

Monica Hesse wrote a lovely tribute to Biden here.

Yes, that's a lovely piece. And a really good point to draw the contrast between Biden's parenting and Trump's.

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