by liberal japonicus
Hope I'm not stepping on Ugh's (greatly appreciated) thread (and that's your place for your COVID bon mots), but I thought I would crack a thread open after a comment by novakant on my observation that a woman going up against Trump would have been the recipe for disaster. I was thinking of American female politicans, novakant suggested that some foreign women might come out better, which is hard to say. (Would Trump pretend he was fluent in German when talking with Merkel? Would the English that came out of his mouth be comprehensible to a non-native speaker? Though I did learn a lot of Japanese phrases when I could make them out)
Just to restate it for folks who just read the posts, I expressed my sympathy for what Hilary must have gone thru having to deal with Trump and I thought that Trump might have even come out as a 'winner' of the debate had he been against any of the previous female candidates (or indeed, any female US politician), because a woman behaving like Biden did would have had her marked as a bitch and any other kind of attempt to get Trump to adhere to some norms would have had the candidate marked as not strong enough to be the president. (one can only imagine the mansplaining) There was a previous potential parallel, when Keir Starmer was quarantined and Angela Rayner, the deputy Labour leader stood in for him at the PMQ, and BoJo seemed to really dial down his typical clownish behavior. Would that have happened with Trump? No one knows, and I hope everyone realizes that we have the nominee we have, so any refighting of that is a waste of time. (which I hope this post isn't taken as doing). I just find it to be a way to grant perspective if, when these situations come up, to imagine what would have happened had a woman been doing that.
To which novakant replied:
The interesting question is how much of this is due to Trump, US society at large and the current candidates - and how to get out of this bind.
My own take is that very little is "due" to Trump, he's just harnessing it. Likewise for current candidates, though that might have some suggest that it was the Marxist left's fault that they nominated Hilary 4 years ago, like it's the liberals' fault that Dreher votes for Trump. Whatevs.
I'd suggest that the problem is toxic masculinity. Some data, faintly connected. As you scan down the list of celebs who came out, you can notice the ratio of women to men. Of course this plugs into some typical notions of lesbian women (hawt!), gay guys, (not so much), which is nothing new to most of you. But clearly, it seems more of a problem for men to come out than it is for women, largely, I would argue, because masculinity makes the reaction worse.
And I'd juxtapose it with this article on Kimberley Guilfoyle that I think I got from a comment. I won't quote it, but it seems like Guilfoyle is behaving like any number of male execs have. I imagine that she believes (and possibly other women, presumably who support Trump do as well) that women's liberation means that women can act just as badly as men.
Which brings us to novakant's question-how to get out of this bind. The time-honored pattern for this in the US, it seems, is to demand the put upon group behave well enough so as to show the people doing it the error of their ways. Indeed, if the group behaves in any other way, they are disruptive, they don't understand norms, and therefore aren't deserving of enlightened behavior. That sucks imho. It also requires that the group treat themselves as a block. I have some foreign feminist friends who often lament why Makiko Tanaka or Yuriko Koike don't break out, yet to my jaundiced eye, the fact that they are women does not erase the taint of being in the LDP. It's like cheering on Michele Bachman as a representative of feminism. Ivanka got 3/4 of a million in consulting fees, free at last, Thank God almighty, women are free at last!
This takes on an added resonance when we start to deal with the nomination of Amy Coney Barrett. This Lithwick piece hits a lot of these points in the context of feminism.
A lot to unpack, but maybe a place to talk about anything other than Trump and Covid.
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