veep talk and the Indian diaspora

by liberal japonicus

Reading thru all the things on Kamala (pronounced 'comma-la', the name comes from Sanskrit) and going down rabbit holes. Didn't know much about the Indian-American diaspora, except that in addition to Harris, Nikki Haley and Bobby Jindal (and Dinesh D'Souza, gross) were part of it. I also, as is my wont, tend to be sarcastic with things that bother me, so when I read 'Asian American' plopped into an article about Harris, I think of the joke about the difficulty of telling Narendra Modi and Xi Jinping apart because everyone knows that all Asians look alike, so I resisted reading up any speculation about the pick, but now that's she has been chosen, I'll read stuff even if they have 'first Asian American' whatever. (I have to go back and see what 'South Asian' vs 'Asian' correlates with in these articles)

I get the impression that a lot of articles have emphasized Harris as a Black American, but it is striking to me that it is the same as Obama, parents who divorced, the candidate raised by the non-black mother, yet the emphasis is on the father, an emphasis that Harris makes herself. I think I wrote something about that in discussing a bio of Ann Durham, Obama's mother. I'm waiting, with bated breath, for Harris to be accused in a similar way to Obama, that he was black-ish rather than black (though that may be a rhetorical pretzel too far for some) so I want to emphasize that my interest into Harris' Indian roots shouldn't be taken as negating her black identity. I also think that as a general rule, men are more boxed into an identity than women, which also has some bearing here.

A common thread in a lot of left pubs that I don't really care for (I'm looking at you Jacobin) is that Harris is simply another neo-liberal cog in the machine. Still, I feel like the issues raised by George Floyd's execution are elided with the Harris pick because of her path. Is this indicative of the campaign's take on BLM? Hell if I know, though if this bothers you, you may want to take a look at this article. But I think that the history of the Indian diaspora actually gives us some insight as to why Harris traveled the road she did.

Wikipedia is a good starting point with Indian Americans and I didn't know about United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind.

Bhagat Singh Thind had come to the United States in 1913 for higher studies after obtaining a bachelor's degree in India. He enlisted in the United States Army, became a Sergeant and served in the First World War. He was discharged honorably with his character designated as "excellent". Thind was granted citizenship in Washington state in July 1918 but his citizenship was rescinded in just four days. He received his citizenship for the second time in Oregon state in November 1920 after the Bureau of Naturalization was unsuccessful in its efforts to stall it in Oregon court. The case then reached the Supreme Court, where Sakharam Ganesh Pandit, a California attorney and fellow immigrant, represented Thind.

The arguments offered on behalf of Thind were also interesting

Thind argued that Indo-Aryan languages are indigenous to the Aryan part of India in the same way that Aryan languages are indigenous to Europe, highlighting the linguistic ties between Indo-Aryan speakers and Europeans, as most European languages including English are similar to Indo-Aryan languages such as Hindi.

Since the Ozawa v. United States court case had just decided that the meaning of white people for the purposes of the Court were people who were members of the Caucasian race, Thind argued that he was a white person by arguing that he was a member of the Caucasian race. Thind argued using "a number of anthropological texts" that people in Punjab and other Northwestern Indian states belonged to the "Aryan race", and Thind cited scientific authorities such as Johann Friedrich Blumenbach as classifying Aryans as belonging to the Caucasian race. Thind argued that, although some racial mixing did indeed occur between the Indian castes, the caste system had largely succeeded in India at preventing race-mixing. Thind argued that by being a "high-caste, of full Indian blood" he was a "Caucasian" according to the anthropological definitions of his day.

Thind's lawyers argued that Thind had a revulsion to marrying an Indian woman of the "lower races" when they said, "The high-caste Hindu regards the aboriginal Indian Mongoloid in the same manner as the American regards the Negro, speaking from a matrimonial standpoint." Thind's lawyers argued that Thind had a revulsion to marrying a woman of the Mongoloid race. This would characterize Thind as being both white and someone who would be sympathetic to the existing anti-miscegenation laws in the United States.

Kuromatsu, it ain't. Interestingly, Japanese-Americans are often touted as a model minority, but in some senses, Indo Americans would probably be a better example.

The population of Indo-Americans (also categorised as East Indians, Asian Indians and American Indians) in the US is 2.4 million, the second-largest immigrant group after Mexicans. It is also the most successful, with the median household income at $107,000 – almost twice that of American-born households. Indian immigrants are more likely to be enrolled in higher education, to participate in the labour force and twice as likely to be employed in management, business, science and the arts as the overall population.

link

And of course, there were the 'Hindus for Trump', though the demographic is Democratic leaning. However, this conservative streak reminded me of this Guardian article explaining why British Indians are so prominent in the Conservative party.

So, when we talk about Harris' path via law school and California Attorney General, I feel like it was determined in part by accomodation rather than reaction, more so than Obama's path.

Some other links about Harris that might be of interest
Atlantic on how Harris represents a new democratic coalition

Harris is a demographic bridge between Biden and the modern Democratic Party, but she’s not nearly as much of an ideological bridge. Though she ran sharply to the left during the early stages of her unsteady presidential bid, her record, like Biden’s, is fundamentally moderate.

Forbes on conservative attempts to undercut Harris as a Black candidate

But some conservatives are piling on the criticism and have sought to refute claims that Harris would be the nation’s first African-American vice president and saying that her heritage does not trace back to slavery.

This article with some interesting details about the mixed race demographic and introduced me to the ADOS movement

The ADOS movement includes supporters as wide-ranging as Harvard philosophy professor Cornel West, who has said that it is giving working-class Black people a voice, and white conservative political commentator Ann Coulter. But the movement has many detractors, some of whom view it as divisive at best and xenophobic at worst. Others have argued that it ignores the long history of African Americans with immigrant roots, including black nationalist Marcus Garvey, who was Jamaican, and Nation of Islam leader Malcolm X, whose mother was Grenadian.

Here's a dissection of West's support of ADOS. Quick rule of thumb, if you are ever grouped with Ann Coulter, don't walk, run to get out of that space.

The Guardian had a panel give responses, I like Jill Filipovic's take, and this is a bit more detailed about the challenges that face women in general on the issues of crime and punishment

This NYTimes about Trump Jr's quickly deleted tweet, which seems to indicate a level of panic with messaging.

“Don’s tweet was simply him asking if it was true that Kamala Harris was half-Indian because it’s not something he had ever heard before,” the spokesman, Andy Surabian, said at the time. He added that the tweet was deleted after it was recognized that followers were “misconstruing” its intent.

And an interesting note about Biden and Harris not graduating from Ivy League schools.

All these links are post selection, one thing to be careful about is to identify the articles that were raising issues with Harris during her presidential campaign. As shocked as all of you may find this, some people tend to makd arguments not because they believe them but because they want their supported candidate to win.

Anyway, a thread for your Kamala Harris thoughts.

Comments

[Hartmut]

Given how well targeted advertising works these days and how informationally bubbled especially the low information voters are, we will likely see a quite diverse approach at attacking her with no fear of blatant contradictions. There may be even groups that can be fooled that 'Indian' means 'American Indian' (and thus of course ineligible as per the clear intent of the founders). A two-pronged attack of 'too black' and 'not black enough' is already starting to materialize. First rehearsals for the cacophony for bullhorns and doghwhistles are getting prepared while we speak. Any bets when we will hear her called a hairy camel by some camapaign official?

[russell]

A small aside, perhaps:

But some conservatives are piling on the criticism and have sought to refute claims that Harris would be the nation’s first African-American vice president and saying that her heritage does not trace back to slavery.

Harris' father was a black Jamaican. It's highly unlikely that her heritage does not trace back to slavery. It's highly unlikely that the heritage of anyone in the Western Hemisphere with any African ancestry does not trace back to slavery.

Also as an aside, Harris' father is, at first glance, an interesting guy.

United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind

I wonder if anyone has done any research on the caste identity of Indian immigrants to the US. And/or, how that plays into their apparent success as an immigrant community.

[Pro Bono]

It's highly unlikely that the heritage of anyone in the Western Hemisphere with any African ancestry does not trace back to slavery.

That depends what you mean by 'highly unlikely'. Africa is a large and diverse continent.

[cleek]

But some conservatives are piling on the criticism and have sought to refute claims that Harris would be the nation’s first African-American vice president and saying that her heritage does not trace back to slavery.

ah yes, "conservatives" are quite good at doing deep genealogical studies of people in order to determine exactly the right level of scorn they deserve. the idea that conservatives make that determination from simple skin color alone is a persistent and pernicious myth.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

ah yes, "conservatives" are quite good at doing deep genealogical studies of people in order to determine exactly the right level of scorn they deserve.

Got the order backwards.
FIRST they decide on the scorn, THEN they come up with the justifications.

Red Queens, the lot of them. In oh so many senses of those words.

[Pollo de muerte]

Harris went to an HBCU and was in AKA.

She's plenty black enough where it matters most: Black Women.

[Nigel]

While criticisms of Harris' record as AG are not unwarranted, they should be put in context...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/give-kamala-harris-break/615127/

[Nigel]

And this should perhaps be played at campaign events ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s1fHtIVqiQ

[John Thullen]

Excellent post, lj.

"FIRST they decide on the scorn, THEN they come up with the justifications."

Yes, by September, these ilk, because they are racist filth, will be going after Harris's all-American melting pot constituent parts on a rotating tag-team basis.

She's too everything and not enough of anything in their demon subhuman eyes.

The white part of her slept with a black man to get to the top, they will say; the black Jamaican part of her will build low-income housing in middle class neighborhoods (trump doubled down on that immediately after Harris was chosen) where our virginal housewives (even after marriage .. neat trick, that) will be fighting off those big strapping black bucks and those slavering little wetbacks, and the west-coast West Asian part of her will be an imported invasive species of unidentified yellow and brown peril which will justify closing all borders as tight as a conservative's ass.

She will be Pocahontas' fat black slatternly sister.

Her ancestry will be traced back to Willie Horton, Angela Davis, Nat Turner, the Central Park Five, Mao Mao voudou priest Dutty Boukman, Granny Nanny, Queen of the Maroons, George Soros' commie, pro-Nazi liberal Jewess, and Jiang Qing ready to loose canceling cultural revolution on Pat Buchanan's fat Aryan ass.

When they get done, she'll be both Emmett Till and the KKK who beat and lynched him to death.

Crypto-Christian bigot Dreher already has her buttonholed as Sister Woke, and reliably racist and wet diapered tomboy Tucker Carlson's every word about her spells choke hold.

Alex Jones will eat his neighbors if they vote for her:

https://twitter.com/search?q=%22Alex%20Jones%22&src=trend_click

She can handle it.

I hope her armed bodyguards can too.

[hairshirthedonist]

russell: It's highly unlikely that the heritage of anyone in the Western Hemisphere with any African ancestry does not trace back to slavery.

Pro Bono: That depends what you mean by 'highly unlikely'. Africa is a large and diverse continent.

I'm guessing russell, though he didn't make it explicit, was referring to anyone in the Western Hemisphere with any African (sub-Saharan African, more specifically) ancestry and whose family has been in the Western Hemisphere for a long time (i.e. not known to be descended from recent immigrants from Africa). For someone who's of mixed race, recent immigrants not from Africa wouldn't matter (or even, mixed race or not, from Africa if those immigrants weren't the only source of African ancestry).

In other words, if you have any sub-Saharan African ancestry from people who have lived in the Western Hemisphere for many generations, you are very likely descended from people who were slaves in the Americas.

To Pro Bono's point about Africa being a large and diverse continent, if you have any sub-Saharan African ancestry from people who have lived in the Western Hemisphere for many generations, your African ancestry will be mostly West African. Less likely (or just less of it) from a place like Kenya.

[IIRC, Barack Obama was descended from the first African slave brought to what is now the US, but that was through his white mother.]

[russell]

That depends what you mean by 'highly unlikely'. Africa is a large and diverse continent.

That's a very good point, and there are a lot of people in the Western Hemisphere whose background is African, but who don't count slaves among their ancestors. It's common for people to assume that African means sub-Saharan West African, and that's not always so.

Something like 10 or 12 million black sub-Saharan Africans were brought to the Americas as slaves over the course of about 350 years. To my knowledge, that dwarfs immigration to the Western Hemisphere by any other African population. The number of people just in the US who claim ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans brought here as slaves is something like 40 million, and the number of people brought to the US as slaves is a small fraction of those brought to South America and the Caribbean.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident that my original comment upthread is accurate.

[wj]

I'm waiting, with bated breath, for Harris to be accused in a similar way to Obama, that he was black-ish rather than black

Well some on the far-right are already making the argument that, like Obama, she isn't eligible because, in her case, her parents were immigrants. It's a step beyond the birthers: they aren't claiming she wasn't born here, but that immigrant parents somehow overrides the Constitution's exact words.

But then, the most notable feature of the initial reaction was how scattershot the Trump campaign and GOP reaction was.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/12/politics/republican-attacks-kamala-analysis/index.html
Including claiming both that she was too far left and going to abolish the police AND that she was too tough on criminals and too supportive of the police. And note that the latter wasn't a progressive critique.

Gosh, you'd think they'd been blindsided by a surprise pick.

[CaseyL]

I was at best tangentially aware of Harris' Indian ancestry.

I had no idea how prominent it was in her upbringing and sense of self, until I watched a few YouTube videos. Especially the one with Mindy Kaling, where the two of them are in Mindy's kitchen cooking masala dosa (filmed during Harris' Presidential run). A thoroughly adorable video, BTW, which I highly recommend.

Harris, to me at least, embodies the best of the "the melting pot" American ideal.

She was my first choice for President, and I am thrilled Biden picked her as his Veep.

[wj]

Harris, to me at least, embodies the best of the "the melting pot" American ideal.

It's definitely nice to see the melting pot being so prominent in our political lives. Obama, and now Harris.

[JanieM]

Re: the melting pot

From Louise Erdrich's The Antelope Wife (this is a character's thought train, not to be confused with Erdrich's considered opinion, about which I am not clued in):

Baby Cecille. She’s like a caffeine surge. She runs her kung fu studio right next to the bakery shop. Through this, and peroxide, she has made herself a bicep blond Indian with tiny hips and sculptured legs that she shows off by wearing the shortest shorts. She also has the glitteriest, most watching eyes. Green glints reveal her Irish, way back in the Shawano line. She’s a proud one, and, as opposed to Auntie Klaus, she likes to talk.

Some bloods they go together like water -- the French Ojibwas: You mix those up and it is all one person. Like me. Others are a little less predictable. You make a person from a German and an Indian, for instance, and you’re creating a two-souled warrior always fighting with themselves. I’m nondescript, I think. Average-looking girl, is what I’m saying -- olive skin, brown hair, rounded here and rounded there. Swedish and Norwegian Indians abound in this region, too, and now, Hmong-Ojibwas, those last so beautiful you want to follow them around and see if they are real. Take an Indian who shows her Irish, like Cecille, however, and you’re playing with hot dynamite.

As one of those two-souled warriors, I appreciate the naming of the phenomenon and envy people like Harris who manage to blend their tributary streams into something harmonious. [In case anyone is unfamiliar with Erdrich, "Indian" in this context means Native American, not Indian-from-India.]

[Pro Bono]

Something like 10 or 12 million black sub-Saharan Africans were brought to the Americas as slaves over the course of about 350 years. To my knowledge, that dwarfs immigration to the Western Hemisphere by any other African population.

The first and second generation African immigrant population of France alone is about 5 million.

[hairshirthedonist]

Even with some consolidation, I'm probably something like a five-souled warrior. :^o

[hairshirthedonist]

France?

[GftNC]

From a Guardian link in lj's post, I was astonished to read that:

on an ideological scale, Harris ranks as the second-most progressive senator, behind Warren but ahead of Sanders.

I checked it out, and apparently it's true on the voting record. The link is:

https://voteview.com/person/41701/kamala-devi-harris

I guess it says more about the other Dem senators, in a way, than it does about Harris, and how far attitudes in a substantial part of the population have been moving ahead of the legislators. Anyway, I found it rather hearteninng.

[JanieM]

Even with some consolidation, I'm probably something like a five-souled warrior. :^o

Right there with you, hsh. And if the truth could be known, I'm sure it's not all down to ethnic mixing. ;-)

[wj]

if the truth could be known, I'm sure it's not all down to ethnic mixing.

I blame the colleges. Young people with raging hormones, away from home for the first time, and exposed to lots of others from who knows where. Leading to Obama and Harris, among many others.

[russell]

The first and second generation African immigrant population of France alone is about 5 million.

Not to derail this into a tangent about African emigration, but the European history with Africa is different from that of the Americas.

Not necessarily better or worse, but different.

Overall, the point I was making was that claims that Harris' ancestors were unlikely to be slaves because her father is a (partially) black man from Jamaica are... unlikely. Because of the history of black Africans in the Western Hemisphere generally, and certainly in the Caribbean.

I could certainly be wrong about all of that, and it's not a point I'm highly invested in. It's just a point that seems obvious, to me.

[JanieM]

I blame the colleges.

Maybe that's a joke, but if it isn't, it's a vast oversimplification, and certainly anachronistic for the era when my parents met at their place of employment.

[wj]

Absolutely it's a joke

[Pro Bono]

Russell, I'm sure you're right about the Caribbean.

[Michael Cain]

Somehow I got on Harris's e-mail list early on. Shortly before Christmas last year there was an e-mail that said it would be last one for a few days while everyone was coping with the various holidays. It was somewhat lengthy and referred to all of her Jamaican father, her Indian mother, their degrees, her husband (born elsewhere and moved to California), and the kids. She mentioned she was looking forward to their traditional Christmas dinner: enchiladas made from her mother's recipe.

I remember thinking "a perfectly ordinary family from any major metro area in the American West."

[wj]

I remember thinking "a perfectly ordinary family from any major metro area in the American West."

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, we generally end up with homemade sushi for Christmas dinner. But the principle is the same.

[russell]

a perfectly ordinary family from any major metro area in the American West.

:: thumbs up ::

United colors of Benetton, my friends. It's what made this country great. It's the source of our vitality. It's our future.

Let's have people in the White House who come from so many ethnic, racial, and geographic backgrounds that it just doesn't matter anymore. Accomplished, intelligent people, people who have achieved something besides grabbing all the cookies they could get their hands on.

Let's have a Jamaican / South Indian woman who is married to a white Jew from Brooklyn as VPOTUS. Maybe POTUS next time.

That is what will really make America great again.

[russell]

Russell, I'm sure you're right about the Caribbean.

And you are right about the range and variety of people and cultures in the enormous continent of Africa.

Everything under the sun.

[Girl from the North Country]

Further to my previous comment about KH's history in the senate, I guess it's too much to hope that the Trump campaign's response to her is the way they mean to continue. With a subject line reading Kamala is HORRIBLE!, the fundraising email sent out to Trump supporters reads:

Kamala Harris is the meanest, most horrible, most disrespectful, MOST LIBERAL of anyone in the US Senate, and I cannot believe that Joe Biden would pick her as his running mate.

Understandably, many people (I would do a small superscript TM to signify "trademark", if I knew how) suspected this wasn't genuine. As of now, apparently it was. But history teaches us not to assume that we can be sure of how these sorts of things are received by their target audience....

[wj]

Kamala Harris is the meanest, most horrible, most disrespectful, MOST LIBERAL of anyone in the US Senate

Regardless of how it plays with its target audience, perhaps it will help persuade some progressives who don't think she's liberal enough. :-)

[Nigel]

... the most notable feature of the initial reaction was how scattershot the Trump campaign and GOP reaction was..

This is perhaps the most amusing.

Howard Kurtz: Kamala Harris 'getting walk on water coverage' by media after VP pick
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/511885-howard-kurtz-kamala-harris-getting-walk-on-water-coverage-by-media-after-vp

Those media bastards.

[John Thullen]

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/08/the-wikipedia-war-over-kamala-harris-race/615250/

What a subhuman world technology, social media, and right wing filth have made of our lives.

[John Thullen]

Dig him up and drive a stake through his shriveled republican subhuman heart and stuff his mouth with salt.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/herman-cain-tweets-two-weeks-after-his-death-to-attack-democrats/ar-BB17VCCV?ocid=uxbndlbing

He's vandalizing Harris' life, her campaign, and a Presidential election from his crypt.

Vandalize his grave site.

When he is dug up, wear gloves and a spacesuit, because these conservative movement superspreaders' corpses are crawling with the Covid-19 virus, just like the live items and their infected children ruining public education and trying to kill public school teachers.

These monsters will stop at nothing but a head shot.

[CaseyL]

Heads up, all y'all: you've probably already heard Trump state openly that he's refusing to fund the USPS for the express purpose of sabotaging the vote in November.

Ted Lieu has tweeted that the House can't do anything about it: all roads go through POTUS and/or the Senate. Here is what he says we need to do if we're voting by mail:

VOTE EARLY. No later than October 22, to give the USPS time to process your ballot.

BETTER: Vote early and USE A DROP-BOX. Avoid using USPS if you can.

BETTER STILL: Vote early and TAKE YOUR BALLOT IN PERSON TO THE ELECTION BOARD OFFICE. If you can.

If all else fails, and in person voting is an option, put on your Hazmat suit, pack a meal or two, and go vote in person.

Please spread the word.

We need to be rid of this traitorous trash.

[wj]

What a subhuman world technology, social media, and right wing filth have made of our lives.

While true, you really should give some credit to the yeoman efforts of the Russian government in pushing, and frequently originating, the lies that get spread around the right wing media machine. Our native nutcases really aren't creative/bright enough to come up with a lot of this nonsense.

[nous]

We have already sworn to drop off our mail-in ballots at the local polling place. It will be staffed almost entirely by university faculty spouses and subject to no shenanigans. Failing that, it's the local seniors facility where they still talk about how nice it is to see young people voting. We may risk the face time just to hear that. It's been years now since anyone carded me for buying alcohol.

[Michael Cain]

We always return them by drop box. And three days later I check online to make sure the ballots have been collected and processed without problems.

We have the advantage that the bulk of the sorting for the Front Range urban corridor here in Colorado is done at one of the monster distribution centers that runs 24 hours a day. Counties deliver pallets of mostly pre-sorted ballots there. To screw things up enough to create significant delays in delivery to voters means screwing up delivery of regular mail affecting multiple states, some with two Republican Senators. So far as I can tell, Trump hasn't quite got to the point where he's willing to say "Fnck the businesses in the red states."

[Donald]

Kamala Harris strikes a lot of people and not just me as someone who is a weathervane. She gives in to pressure. She waffles. She is for M4A and then she is against it. But if pressured from the left, that could be a good thing. Cori Bush in the NYT today had the right idea, in my opinion. Too lazy to link.

She's been bad on foreign policy, but again, maybe she can be pressured. She eventually turned against the war in Yemen around when the other Democrats did (after Khashoggi). She is an absolute joke on Israel. I find this interview from June 2019 hilarious in its hypocrisy--

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/us/politics/israel-human-rights-democratic-candidates.html

The other candidates understand the question to be about the Palestinians--Harris with her AIPAC ties pretends not to understand what the question is about.

I don't like Biden or Harris. But the Democrats want to give unemployed people 600 a week while the Republicans oppose this on the grounds that it will keep them from working since it is more than many people make. Which is nonsense since there aren't enough jobs, but what does that say about our country that 600 a week is actually an improvement for many people? That oh so horrible lefty rag Jacobin had a moving piece about that the other day. The Democrats recognize that global warming is a real and catastrophic problem. The Republicans don't. So those two issues by themselves would be enough to get me to support Biden-Harris. And there are other reasons as well.

[Donald]

600 a week

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/08/cares-act-coronavirus-unemployment-benefits-democrats

[nous]

Harris is the best that we could hope to get elected without dragging down Biden. Warren would have lost a bunch of the midwest. Klobuchar would have lost a lot of the minority vote, having been quite law & order as AG. Rice would have been Benghazi'd 24 hours of the day on the right wing news.

I'm under no illusions that any of the more lefty concerns that move me have a hope in hell of seeing improvement in the near future, so I'm hoping to rejoin the Paris Accord, restore the EPA, and let RBG retire.

[Michael Cain]

Warren would have lost a bunch of the midwest.

Based on the long-term trends and the 2016 results, would she have lost Minnesota or Illinois? Because those are the grand total of EC votes that Clinton got out of the Midwest.

[liberal japonicus]

Going to Jacobin, you get this nice ad for this

https://www.jacobinmag.com/store/product/67

How do you move forward if you are locked in the past? But I guess those books don't sell themselves...

If folks are worried about Biden, there is this
https://www.vox.com/2020/5/13/21257078/joe-biden-bernie-sanders-joint-unity-task-forces-democratic-policy

and this
https://www.newyorker.com/news/campaign-chronicles/a-preview-of-how-a-biden-white-house-might-make-policy

and this
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/07/08/sanders-biden-camps-reach-compromise-with-new-policy-recommendations/#5b0ccf2f11be

The last link has this
Despite his and Sanders’s efforts, however, some progressive activists still remain wary of Biden’s candidacy. “If I am to accept him as being a transformative leader, then I need to see evidence of his own transformation, and I haven’t,” LaTosha Brown, head of the civil rights group Black Voters Matter, told the Washington Post.

well...
https://blackvotersmatterfund.org/news/joe-biden-got-it-right/

[nous]

Based on the long-term trends and the 2016 results, would she have lost Minnesota or Illinois?

No, but I think she would have kept WI from going blue and put NE2 out of reach, as well, and she would have scared voters in MN and IL for their downballot choices.

[russell]

Kamala Harris strikes a lot of people and not just me as someone who is a weathervane

Ham sandwich.

I just don't care about (D) purity anymore. Get the orange mf'er and his posse of kleptocratic lampreys out of the White House, and then we can take it from there.

Really, in terms of public life and politics I only see two priorities from now until November:

1. Get Trump the hell out of the White House
2. Establish a (D) majority in both houses of Congress

Probably in that order, but whatever. Just freaking get it done. Absent that, the rest is just a lot of noise.

It's that, or a lot of us are gonna have to step up and start getting in the way. Which is going to be hard, for a lot of people. Like, jail and beatings hard. They'll make it hard, and they'll enjoy making it hard.

I see no other options.

[wj]

Kamala Harris strikes a lot of people and not just me as someone who is a weathervane.

Of course. There are, after all, only two kinds of politicians:
1) those who are unfailingly ideologically pure. And rarely accomplish anything . . . except for driving away those who might have been persuaded to embrace some of their positions.
2) weathervanes. Who actually are interested in governing rather than just posturing.

Sure, Harris isn't a pure enough liberal for some. Nobody Biden could have picked would have been liberal enough -- every one of them has, at some point, had the good sense to take half a loaf rather than accomplish nothing. Every one of them has taken a position on something that folks like Donald would object to. Inevitable.

Just like Harris isn't "black enough" for some. Pretty much anyone whose ancestors were slaves here has some white ancestors as well as black ones. Slaveholders behaved that way. So anyone can be faulted either for being "not black enough" or for not having ancestors who were slaves -- since only those who came from Africa in the last couple generations have a chance of having 100% ancestors.

Sometimes I think that the far left is dedicated to helping the far right, rather than actually advancing the positions they proclaim.

[wj]

in terms of public life and politics I only see two priorities from now until November:

1. Get Trump the hell out of the White House
2. Establish a (D) majority in both houses of Congress

Probably in that order,

Given Trump's enthusiasm for simply ignoring Congress when it doesn't do as he wishes, or tries to force him to do something (even just respond to subpoenas), absolutely in that order.

[liberal japonicus]

Well, that didn't take long

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/13/902362014/trump-and-his-campaign-amplify-birther-conspiracy-against-kamala-harris?ft=nprml&f=

[Marty]

So, just a thought. Sen Harris would be likely to be one of the very most liberal Senators. Even Bernie has a Vermont view of guns I believe.

As the Sen from California there is essentially no downside in being liberal.

[wj]

As the Sen from California there is essentially no downside in being liberal.

If you think Senator (from California) Feinstein is a real liberal, you clearly haven't been talking to many liberals. ;-)

[liberal japonicus]

Oooo, a Matt Welch/Reason hot dump take!

https://reason.com/2020/08/13/you-dont-have-to-vote-for-your-partys-crappy-ticket/

[wj]

Except Welch doesn't say what to do if you despise his candidate even more than the major party candidates. OK his gal meets the "ham sandwich" threshold compared to Trump. But only barely -- she'd probably be about as bad as Trump, just without the crude language. And the "government is evil" parts of the GOP would enable her just as enthusiastically.

The mind boggles at someone characterizing the US government's response to covid-19 as "authoritarian". Like, we've all noticed how the Trump administration has been micromanaging the states' efforts at every turn and making everything a Federal responsibility. Riiiiight!

[Marty]

I'm pretty sure I didn't mention Feinstein at all. Or that how liberal she is (19th in the Senate, middle of the pack Democrat) has fuck all to do with what I said about Harris.

She's the most liberal Senator.
There is little downside to being liberal in California.

[cleek]

i'm shocked that the GOP would find something about Biden's pick to be upset about. so suhprized. i might just faint.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

GftNC™, here, let me Snarkisplain this. (assuming it works).

You put a &, then "trade;". There's a bunch more html similar things. Google™ will help you find them.

[Girl from the North Country]

Snarkexplanation&trade, my very favourite kind!

[Girl from the North Country]

Rats! And I tried many different variants, too. Oh well.

[russell]

Harris as most liberal Senator. Or not.

[Girl from the North Country]

FWIW, I also tried with p and sup.

russell, thanks for that link. It illustrates why I was so astonished to hear her called particularly liberal.

[Girl from the North Country]

Marty?

[John Thullen]

I'd like to see a great American diaspora, a sensible fleeing to leave anti-American conservatives to stew in their own poisonous juices, but the Trump conservative movement has deliberately refused to control the virus so that now we are now viewed as diseased pariahs, and we are, to the rest of the world:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/american-passports-are-useless-now/615244/

They want no furriners coming in, and they want to stop Americans from being exposed to anything but the exceptionally toxic and parochial hate of conservative America.

Quite Soviet that, and typical of nationalistic, racist, authoritarian, anti-cosmopolitan, subhuman, fascist regimes.

It also prepares the ground for the next World War, which will be nuclear.

The only leaving is the money of the rich who find offshore hidey-holes to avoid paying taxes, and most of those filth still believe the extremely low, by historical standards, tax rates are commie confiscatory.

They wanna pay zero.

I can arrange that.

[Marty]

Speechless... I don't see why anyone would fight the voting record etc. She is a solid liberal pick for vp.

It seems like a knee jerk reaction to say Trumps wrong no matter what he says.

[CharlesWT]

Hold down the Alt key and type: 0153 ™

[John Thullen]

Russell and I had a friendly disagreement the other day regarding what Trump can and cannot do.

Others are trying to enumerate the former.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/08/trumps-weaponization-usps-and-census/615235/

There is nothing in the Constitution ....

It's a useless rag at this point for these unfettered louts.

I've made this comparison before:

If you stand on the shore at the head of the Nile River or near the ocean in some parts of Australia, the norms of living within a human society seem a given, a safe assumption.

If you venture too close to the water or worse, dive in, you leave all of that behind. Because the most prehistoric of living reptiles, crocodiles, infest those waters, and they go about their predatory, cold-blooded business without reference to human norms.

They are the ultimate dead-eyed sociopaths operating by the primitive notions of the reptilian brain stems.

In some African countries, the predator crocodiles will come to you; they will stalk you in your village for the eating.

Just as the fascist Republican Party is sending tens of thousands of their operatives to "monitor" polling places, mostly in poor and already harassed neighborhoods, throughout the country.

Their first move in seizing you is to disorient you, taking you under the surface and repeatedly and violently rolling you so that you lose all sense of direction and the usual human proprieties.

This is Trump's and his thugs' flood ... think William Barr, a future lynching and disembowelment victim .... the zone with shit strategy. It comes naturally to him .... it's his successful career methodology .... while we gibber and yeah-but about protocols, and standards, and norms.

What you think is possible at that moment is irrelevant and senseless. You just want out and away. You can't maneuver; their jaws are around you.

You are prey.

We are prey.

The only strategies left are to play dead until your breath runs out, (yeah right) or find some way to kill the predators.

[hairshirthedonist]

From russell's link:

The answer is that the data GovTrack.us tracks, while useful, is not a complete look at how liberal or conservative a politician is or would govern. “We always say that one number can never represent the complete picture of a politician,” said Joshua Tauberer, founder and president of GovTrack.us.

(...)

If you look at a five-year span provided by GovTrack.us — although Harris was not in the Senate all of those years — she’s still among the most liberal senators by this marker. But Sanders and a few others are more so.

This doesn't sound knee-jerky to me. It sounds like adding nuance to Trump's simplistic and absolutist characterization. It's not that there's nothing to what he's saying. It's that it's an overstatement that leaves much of the full picture out. As is usual for him.

[John Thullen]

"There is little downside to being liberal in California."

What does that even mean?

Please enumerate the downsides to being conservative in Florida and Texas.

[Pro Bono]

Trump is wrong no matter what he says.

If by some accident he says something more true than false, it's for the wrong reasons. Why defend him?

"disrespectful" is the word that caught my eye. Does it mean she's not as polite as Trump? Or is it just a racist dog whistle? Or is it an attack on Biden for selecting someone who opposed him in the primaries?

[hairshirthedonist]

Please enumerate the downsides to being conservative in Florida and Texas.

1. Dying of COVID-19.

[Girl from the North Country]

CharlesWT: Thanks, but doesn't work. As soon as I hit the 1 of 0153 I get jumped up to the top of the blog, and out of this thread. Tried it twice.

"disrespectful" is definitely a dog-whistle, it would be when used of a woman, and of a black woman there is no possible doubt.

[Girl from the North Country]

hsh: LOL

[cleek]

It seems like a knee jerk reaction to say Trumps wrong no matter what he says.

statistically speaking, he's wrong every time he speaks.

[cleek]

italiexo!

[John Thullen]

Even when Trump's gob emits some accidentally-stumbled upon truth, he doesn't recognize it as truth, in fact, it feels like something unsavory in his predator mouth that needs spitting out and then it's merely becomes a shiny thing he's about to raise the price on, take it or leave it.

Besides, he's the WRONG beast to be left alone with truth for any length of time.

It would be like leaving him alone with an under aged beauty queen, or a nuclear weapons treaty, or a contractor's bill.

Hitler was eminently truthful. He'd tell you the truth, and then deny he told you that, and then promise the truth he told you beforehand wasn't really true, just before it came true.

And then Neville Chamberlain receives a cable from the Sudetenland addressed to the "Appeaser".

Much the same, Trump tells you what he is going to do to you, and then everyone mills around thinking, well, first, he's lying as usual, why, he wouldn't dare ... would he ...?

Whaddaya gonna do? Call the government?

[wj]

"disrespectful" is the word that caught my eye. Does it mean she's not as polite as Trump? Or is it just a racist dog whistle?

It probably means that his vocabulary is shrinking with age. Otherwise he would have said "uppity".

It's not just racist dog whistle, since it can be aplied to women, too.

[cleek]

"disrespectful" is how "conservatives" will dismiss Harris when she contradicts the things good upstanding men like Trump and Pence will say over the next few months.

"I'd vote for a woman, but not one who is so disrespectful."

it's a sham.

[CharlesWT]

As soon as I hit the 1 of 0153 I get jumped up to the top of the blog, and out of this thread.

Are you using something other than a Windows™ PC? It works on mine with the numeric lock on or off. But not for the number keys across the top of the keyboard. I don't know how it might work with a Mac, smartphone, iPad, etc.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Okay, a bit more detail:

The character & (ampersand)
followed by the word "trade" (without the quotes)
followed by the character ; (semicolon)

Unlike the Windoze™ version, it doesn't depend on what software your computer is running.

As for Kamala as VP, at least she (probably) won't be presiding over the Senate, telling Senators to "go fnck themselves" from the podium. Although she should.

[hairshirthedonist]

Yeah, I saw "disrespectful" as uppity-lite. Obvious to anyone who's willing to pay at least a little attention and is honest about it.

[hairshirthedonist]

The Donald's younger brother is reportedly hospitalized and very ill. What are the chances it's COVID? And what if it is? Does the reptilian brain process something like that in a meaningful way? I guess we'll see.

[Girl from the North Country]

Snarkexplanation™

Aha! it was the semi-colon I didn't realise was important.

CharlesWT™

Also worked! I was using the number keys along the top.

Crikey, ObWi continues its educational mission.

[John Thullen]

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a33605565/trump-destroy-post-office-2020-election/

[John Thullen]

No downside to being subhuman in Florida:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/14/trump-mail-ballot-florida/

[russell]

Trump is wrong no matter what he says.

Trump is wrong no matter what he says, on purpose.

He's a BS artist.

It makes sense that Harris is a liberal. She represents a largely liberal state.

Senators from Utah are mostly conservative. Senators from California are mostly liberal.

Biden and Harris are going to find a policy groove somewhere in the midstream of (D) sentiment. That's going to look like centrist pablum to some people, and radical crypto-Marxism to others.

Harris is, by modern American standards, liberal. "Most liberal Senator" is a stretch.

But keep those Fox headlines coming.

[cleek]

come on. everyone knows that VPs set the policy for the whole government. they're responsible for writing bills, appointing SCOTUS judges, apportioning money and setting regulatory policy.

[russell]

A variety of opinions about Harris.

Selected from a more or less random walk of Google results. Article that were obvious partisan propaganda were excluded, other than that it's pretty much an arbitrary selection.

I did include one piece from McClatchy, who are clearly not a (R)-friendly source, mostly because their reporting is usually pretty good.
Feel free to ignore it if you like.

Make up your own mind.

[wj]

Trump is wrong no matter what he says.

Not really. For example, when he accuses his opponents of some misdeed, he's usually right. Except, of course, for the detail that it's him doing it rather than them. But still, the bad behavior did happen.
/sarcasm

[nous]

Here's a list of the bills that Harris has sponsored in the Senate:

https://www.congress.gov/member/kamala-harris/H001075?q=%7B%22sponsorship%22%3A%22sponsored%22%7D

Seems a good measure of her focuses and priorities.

[wj]

From beyond the grave!
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/13/herman-cain-twitter-democrats-joe-biden

So we're talking Zombies for Trump here?

[nous]

So we're talking Zombies for Trump here?

Haven't we always? George Romero would have said so.

[John Thullen]

So, let's jump ahead and game this out politically:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=US+coronavirus+strain+human+trials&filters=tnTID%3a%2246574210-A797-4b28-A0BD-0104464E3D9C%22+tnVersion%3a%223656877%22+Segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%225%22+tnOrder%3a%22609c9fa5-4e3c-4ecc-a2e6-19852c799bf5%22&efirst=5&form=HPNN01

As Trump is vertriloquizing a despot's slimy impression of a President of a country, we'll hear nothing from his traitorous dupes and enablers regarding the government not only producing the virus but infecting vaccine volunteers with it as part of the usual vaccine efficacy trials.

But as soon as Biden is inaugurated, all of the usual suspects, QAnon in the lead, will begin warning darkly via their anonymous social media hit squads, foreign and domestic, of the vast left wing deep state conspiracy to infect the American people with the virus, not to mention that the vaccine will also causes people to begin trafficking in and raping young children.

We ain't seen nothing yet.

[John Thullen]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/usps-states-delayed-mail-in-ballots/2020/08/14/64bf3c3c-dcc7-11ea-8051-d5f887d73381_story.html

Trump told the truth.

I expect the National Guard and Army and Marine regulars will be mustered RIGHT ON TIME to put down, with killing, armed bloody street insurrections in those 46 states.

Conservative movements always make the armed, martial parts of government that protect their asses and malign interests highly efficient and deadly.

Ballots not so much. Bullets to murder the disenfranchised, right on, f*ckers.

Covid testing, meh. Body Bags to hold the murdered.

Coming right up!

[John Thullen]

Correction.

The insurrection is not those fighting in the streets for the freedom to goddamned fucking vote.

The insurrectionists are the entire edifice of the Trump conservative republican movement, tens and tens of millions of the louts, who are destroying governments at all levels and the country's democratic institutions and processes.

[cleek]

i think i see a problem with vote-by-mail.

[CharlesWT]

russell, thanks for the links.

My impression is that Harris is, at best, a politician. Perhaps even a high function sociopath. That would put her in a plentiful company in Washington D.C. Her public record is a pretty mixed bag. Hopefully, if she becomes VP, she will pull some of the better items from that bag.

She is American. Any refinement to that characterizing should be up to her.

"Biden picked the only VP candidate whose record on police and criminal justice reform is just as terrible as his own."
Kamala Harris: Drug Warrior, Vice Cop, Draconian Prosecutor (YouTube)

[cleek]

Kamala Harris: Drug Warrior

the states seem to be doing much better on the drug issue by simply ignoring the Feds. maybe that's the right path to take.

[wj]

Charles, just curious. Was there ANY of the potential Democratic VP candidates that you approved of? Even a little bit?

[CharlesWT]

Tulsi Gabbard a little bit if only for her foreign policy stances. Otherwise, she was about as much of a stretch as the others.

[nous]

"Biden picked the only VP candidate whose record on police and criminal justice reform is just as terrible as his own."

Useful bit of qualifier, that, and quite subtle. I assume that it was made after Kobuchar and Deming were out of serious consideration and no one else left having much of a record to check. Technically true, but misleading is the ratfuckers' stock in trade.