My Photo

« We are Philoctetes | Main | The health of the nation? »

August 27, 2020

Comments

Big difference is the California state senate districts are population-based, unlike the U.S. Senate, so minority control of the chamber is far less possible.

I'm not sure if nous made this observation or if a friend who served, but it was that we have a sizable number of people who join the US military as an employer of last resort. When they finish their term of enlistment, their training leads them to a career in law enforcement. I can see how some could seize on that observation as a slur on vets or on cops or on both, but in The Pacific, Eugene Sledge is returning to university after serving in the Marines and the woman helping fill out his class schedule.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSuyOq0vCEE

Some links

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/03/30/when-warriors-put-on-the-badge
Today just 6 percent of the population at large has served in the military, but 19 percent of police officers are veterans, according to an analysis of U.S. Census data performed by Gregory B. Lewis and Rahul Pathak of Georgia State University for The Marshall Project. It is the third most common occupation for vets behind truck driving and management.


https://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/search/law-enforcement-jobs/military-transition-to-police-force.html

I've made similar points here about veterans and warrior cop mentality, and I have (I think) talked about how a light infantry MOS often translates into limited opportunity to present military experience as job training.

This is also, though, a move from one closed society to another, with significant overlap in-between. This makes for a vast cultural disconnect between officers and the civilians that they are tasked with protecting.

And given the mention of PTSD in the article, I also wonder if the suicide rates that Charles mentions in his article correlate more strongly for people in protective services with prior combat service.

The bunker mentality of LEO is not a good thing for healing from PTSD. Neither is the continuation of the hypervigilance, the tendency towards berserking, or the high prevalence of triggers.

And I don't think it helps officer mental health that they go to seminars with Dave Grossman who teaches them that warrior cop garbage and claims he can bulletproof their minds against PTSD. What does that do when the officer ends up traumatized (or re-traumatized) and now there is the narrative that the trauma and guilt is a personal failing as well.

Trump just deputized every subhuman Rittenhouse wannabe right wing murderer across the country, every heavily armed militia, every Nazi, every NRA cocks*cker, every wife-beating incel proud boy, every triggered militant white supremacist law enforcement member (what's 10% of all of the cops in the country?), and every crypto-Christian Putin-loyal armed freak in the country to kill all of his enemies in the streets for his re-election campaign, and afterwards if he loses to Biden and refuses to leave the f*cking White House.

https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-08-31/trump-defends-kenosha-shooting-suspect-kyle-rittenhouse?ocid=uxbndlbing

I predict this armed country will not be a polite country at all as November approaches.

As is usual with pigfucking right wing America, we will need tens of millions of more guns and hundreds of millions more ammo to defeat the Evil that is going to kill us.

Libertarians and conservatives should be very pleased with the state of things they have brought us to.

Reason Magazine, I expect, will justify all of this from amid the smoking rubble around them and conclude that .. we will need still MORE guns in the hands of the murderous citizenry, openly carried in public.

It will be interesting to see how many photos of guys with guns it will take to make Marty as f*cking scared as I am.

The Governor of Wisconsin should set up a perimeter around Kenosha with the National Guard and at all airports Air Force One is likely to land and keep federal Trump fascism out of the their homeland by force.

He should alert the Secret Service and NotMYHomeland Security of what will befall them if they dare breach state and local constitutional rights.

Time for Wisconsin to act like Texas vis/a/vis the mortal threat of federal government power.

Rittenhouse's mother drove him across state lines with a loaded weapon to murder.

Lock her up, now.

Dead conservatives murder Americans from the grave:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/herman-cains-twitter-account-still-active-questions-covid-19-mortality-rate/ar-BB18zmlw

I thought he'd be too busy already spreading Covid-19 in Hell, which by the way has been re-segregated by race by all of the conservatives who have been sent there in recent decades.

Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon are co-Presidents of white Hell.

I guess Cain is trying to keep up with his live action genocidal conservative killers:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/31/1973808/-Trump-advisor-s-plan-signals-maybe-2-Million-dead-could-be-the-right-number

Fascist personal attorney to the Fuhrer fires Justice Department expert in charge of insuring all counter-terrorism activities and operations are carried out by the legal book:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/31/1973922/-As-election-ticks-closer-Barr-purges-yet-another-Justice-official-without-explanation

Replaces him with deep state subhuman toady.

Donald, thanks for the pointer to the White privilege discussion on CT. Have to admit, it makes my head hurt, partially because there seems to be a lot of older positions being argued. I personally think Malik's argument is too clever and hinges on a definition of privilege that, while bound to the dictionary, is nonetheless an oversimplification. If you (or anyone else) would like to write a post to discuss it, drop a line to the kitty and we'll work it out.

also, CT is mixes UK and US POVs wrt WP.

LJ—

Thanks, but I don’t want to write one. I tend to think most people are making good points over there, while ignoring the good points made by their opponents. I have just described most intra- left arguments, come to think of it.

On this one, I think both class and race reductionism clearly exist and much of the debate over there comes from people pointing out the other people’s blind spots. Sometimes it’s best to observe more than participate.

Trump and Barr are about to light the entire country on fire:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/acting-dhs-chief-says-feds-are-working-on-arresting-blm-leaders

He has his Reichstag.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-compares-jacob-blake-shooting-to-golf-blunder-they-miss-a-three-foot-putt

American history is a series of mulligans for murderous cheats.

Dave Neiwert:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/31/1974015/-Oath-Keepers-to-Trump-Send-out-the-militias-to-stop-antifascists-Marxist-takeover-of-America

https://www.yahoo.com/news/witnesses-police-reporters-piece-together-071000881.html

The third night of Jacob Blake protests "had felt different from the start," Gina Barton reports at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. There were the armed militia members adding a note of menace, and "what seemed like hundreds more cops than before stood shoulder to shoulder and forced" demonstrators out of the park and into the street, where "there was nowhere to go. Soldiers and cops blocked one end of the road. White guys with big guns blocked the other."

One video shows Kenosha police thanking Rittenhouse and other militia members for coming out. Another clip appears to show a militia member recounting that "the cops told us today ... like, 'We're gonna push 'em down by you, 'cause you can deal with them and then we're gonna leave.'"

Nothing fascistic to see here.

To follow up on hairshirt's:

This is from Ryan Balch, who was also there. Balch is one of the "white guys with guns" invited by the car dealership owner to watch his properties. There is a picture floating around with Rittenhouse walking down the street with another guy who is armored up and carrying a semi-auto rifle, I believe that is Balch. Balch also pops up in a video talking about how the cops are sending the protestors down the block for the white guys with guns to deal with.

Balch also apparently has associations with white supremacists and boogaloo bois.

What strikes me most forcefully in Balch's account of the evening is the co-operation between the militia dudes, BLM protestors, and antifa. Not necessarily good buddies, but also open to mutual aid and co-operation, and engaged in negotiation about who is responsible for what.

That surprised me.

The two parties who show up as bad actors in Balch's account are the folks he calls the "agitators" - people who are just there to create mayhem - and the Kenosha PD.

I don't know how credible Balch is, he may just be covering his own @ss. But it's an interesting account of the night.

I am hard pressed to make any sense of WTF is going on out there.

In my own personal perfect world, the governor would tell the cops to stand down, call out the Guard, and lock the city down for a week or two. Let everybody chill the hell out. Including the Kenosha PD, the militia, and anybody else who thinks they know who needs shooting. Show up on the street with a firearm and you will be disarmed and invited to spend the night locked up.

But we don't live in my perfect world.

Craziest times I can remember.

but Marxists...

In the 2020 presidential election, we have one candidate, Joe Biden, who strongly and routinely criticizes the excesses of both left and right. And we have one candidate who strongly and routinely criticizes the excesses of the left, while claiming that the entire left is complicit in those excesses.

...

Those who doubt this general characterization of the two main presidential candidates should engage in a little thought experiment. If you went up to a Trump supporter in Portland — someone armed with a MAGA hat, pepper spray, a paintball gun and maybe a little something more — and asked if he or she thought that Trump had their back, the only reasonable response would be “Absolutely!” But if you went up to an anarchist holding a molotov cocktail and asked if Biden had their back, the response would almost certainly be that Biden is a tool of the establishment, bought and sold by Wall Street and alternately manipulated by Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Beef and the prison-industrial complex.

The difference here could hardly be more dramatic. With the support of his party’s establishment, Biden is willing to criticize the hard left even as he is willing to call out police misconduct. Trump, in contrast, has adopted a policy of no enemies to the right. It doesn’t matter if you are a white nationalist, a neo-Confederate, an anti-immigrant zealot or a QAnon true believer; support for Trump is redemption in Trump’s own eyes. In the process, Trump is normalizing beliefs and behaviors that are favorable to the growth of violence.

from the notorious lefty who coined "Axis Of Evil", "soft bigotry of low expectations" and came up with the "smoking gun / mushroom cloud" for W.

Balch also apparently has associations with white supremacists and boogaloo bois.

Yet he carefully differentiates between the BLM folks, who are there to peacefully protest, and the small number of agitators, who are not. Think how much better things would be if Trump could manage to make the same distinction. But of course he won't.

But of course he won't.

It's not in his interest to do so.

It's not in his interest to do so.

Say, rather, he thinks that it's not in his interest to do so. IMHO, it would actually help him.

Not to mention that he's probably incapable of such a thing.

Citizens Ignited:

https://juanitajean.com/witch-mitch/

There's been some concern expressed about what the military might do, or be willing to do, if Trump loses but refuses to accept the result. After all, the military is, as a grouo, quite conservative. So here's a really fascinating article from the Military Times.

In the latest results — based on 1,018 active-duty troops surveyed in late July and early August — nearly half of respondents (49.9 percent) had an unfavorable view of the president, compared to about 38 percent who had a favorable view. Questions in the poll had a margin of error of up to 2 percent.
Among active-duty service members surveyed in the poll, 41 percent said they would vote for Biden, the Democratic nominee, if the election was held today. Only 37 percent said they plan to vote to re-elect Trump. [emphasis added]
Also, views of President Trump among the troops:
Very unfavorable 42.0%
Unfavorable 7.9%
Neutral 12.3%
Favorable 13.3%
Very favorable 25.4%

Bottom line, the chances of anything resembling a military coup in Trump's favor? Minimal.

cleek, I thought the notorious lefty who coined "Axis of Evil" was Frum?

i've heard Frum, too. but Wiki says it's Gerson.

His noteworthy phrases for Bush are said to include "Axis of Evil," a phrase adapted from "axis of hatred," itself suggested by fellow speechwriter David Frum but deemed too mild.

alternately manipulated by Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Beef and the prison-industrial complex.

he left out Big Ag, the military complex, tech, finance, Israel and various globalist entities, depending on the anarchist. Any I missed?

Listening to the president's press conferences and reading his tweets and seeing the way that Carlson and Ingram and the rest are talking about the civil unrest, I am struck by the completely binary nature and sides drawn in it all. It's not a surprise, given how things have been progressing, but it is dismaying to see that these divisions are now not jut out in the open but featured front and center.

This is straight up ethno-religious nationalism. This is political theology. Anyone who does not get in line is the foe.

I don't doubt when wj says that there is not enough support to back a full blown coup, but there is plenty enough support to turn whatever we call this faction into something like the Klan with tremendous regional influence and extra-judicial violence for leverage.

It's not even hard to see anymore.

Marty, McKinney, and byomtov talk about how far we have come and how much better things are now. They are not wrong. But we are seeing that there is a sizable population that is scared and resentful enough to take that path again, so long as they can tell themselves this is about something other than race. And the right has quite the bouillabaisse simmering in the grievance pot right now, with a dash of white supremacy just to give it kick.

Marty, McKinney, and byomtov talk about how far we have come and how much better things are now.

Crikey, I'm not used to seeing byomtov in a category with Marty and McKinney! I'm sure you're right that he said somewhere that race-related matters have improved, as indeed they have in many ways, but still it gave me a shock, and I can't help thinking that in a macro-sense it is a bit misleading.

Fox and Trump (and their host of defenders) are absolutely giddy that the violence has given them the opportunity to ignore BLM's actual message.

DHS Acting Secretary Wolf to the Mayor of Portland: request Federal help . . . or we'll cram it down your throat.
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/514577-dhs-chief-presses-portland-mayor-to-accept-federal-help-as-another

Perhaps the Mayor will phrase his "request" for help like this:
"Please help restore calm to Portland by having the President shut the f*ck up about us. You, too. Thank you."

"The GOP nationwide is looking to go the way of the California GOP: strong in a few backwaters, but overall irrelevant. And powerless when it comes to government."

I, for one, welcome our new Neo-Whigs.

It's not even hard to see anymore.

Correct.

And it's not in the future, it's here, now.

I picked those three because they were the ones who most stridently denounced the "white fragility" formulation because they felt that it put too many people in one big bucket with the really vile racists of yore. I'm pointing out that the ethno-religious nationalists have found in their "postmodern cultural marxists" a handy catch-all bucket to throw the libtards into whatever their race.

It's not a shot at any of the three. It's actually an argument for why we need to not get hung up on any one label for prejudice, acknowledge the messy intersections of hate, and get on board with stopping the apocalyptic death cult that's brewing.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/26/trump-domestic-extemism-homeland-security-401926

After the weekend of massacres, White House officials became more interested in Neumann’s project. Officials told her they could point to her work to show they took the problem seriously. She briefed multiple officials on domestic terrorism issues and what the government could do to prevent attacks. One challenge was particularly thorny, however: The officials, who Neumann declined to name, didn’t want to use the term “domestic terrorism.”

“They very clearly were looking at it through the lens of, ‘We have a violence problem,’” Neumann recalled. “And they did not want to talk about the ideological threat.”

“It makes me sad that in every other circumstance where you’re trying to lay out a strategy to go after a threat, you always start by articulating what the threat is,” she continued. “But in this particular case, we were told, ‘We’re just going to focus on the solutions.’”

(...)

John Cohen, the department’s former counterterrorism coordinator, said DHS could bring tremendous expertise and capabilities to the effort to fight domestic terror.

“The challenge is bringing those resources together in a cohesive, coordinated, and comprehensive way,” he added.

And, he said, the president isn’t making it easy.

“Law enforcement officials are concerned that the political rhetoric used by the president to inspire his political base has been viewed by some violent white supremacists as a call to violent action, and has been viewed by a number of mentally unwell, violence-prone individuals as permission to engage in acts of violence,” he added.

‘Interrogate the shit out of every single one of them’

By May 2020, the administration’s hesitancy to use the term “domestic terrorism” had evaporated — at least as far as actors from the left were concerned. After weeks of protests and property damage in Portland, Ore., President Trump tweeted that he would designate antifa, a loose agglomeration of left-wing ‘anti-fascist’ activists, as a terrorist organization — a legal impossibility. Attorney General William Barr then made a statement using the phrase that so many Trump administration officials have been loath to use.

“The violence instigated and carried out by antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly,” he said.

There seems to be a theme here.

I'm pointing out that the ethno-religious nationalists have found in their "postmodern cultural marxists" a handy catch-all bucket to throw the libtards into whatever their race.

I have no idea what people like Carlson, Ingraham, et al actually want. They just seem to be toxically angry people who need somebody to hate.

I don't know what the cure is, other than don't get caught up in it and keep them away from power.

IMO they are insane. Literally. Driven mad by their own bile, and inflamed by the nice lucrative careers they've made from it all.

Dangerous people.

I find it interesting, but nit remarkable, that in a society where one party is entirely based on the politics of victimized that anyone on that side would have the nerve to talk about the other side as having a pot of grievances.

It shows a stunning lack of awareness that grievances are the foundation of each sides base. Both sides exaggerate them and stoke the flames of discontent.

Shorter me, WTF, is everybody just stupid?

Yeah, everybody is just stupid. Thanks for helping us all see the error of our ways.

But everybody is not trying to start a fucking civil war.

I have no idea what people like Carlson, Ingraham, et al actually want.

as i see it: they get paid to keep their audience angry at everyone who isn't a Republican. they want to get paid.

WTF, is everybody just stupid?

Trump's campaign theme is, very nearly literally: be afraid of anyone who isn't a Republican - they're all out to kill you, the country you imagine America to be, and then they're going to destroy the ghost of your parents.

Biden's theme is: Trump's a fucking loon.

and you find fault with the left. always.

and you find fault with the left. always.

Dude, Marty is above it all. He's here to occasionally drop some of his above-it-all wisdom on us.

Okay, so Marty wants his own big bucket labeled Horseshoe Theory to throw everyone into.

Less sarcastically:

Every person here is capable of recognizing and understanding that grievances, of all sorts, are part of the motivation of all sides and parties.

I've even heard whining from you, Marty, on more than a few occasions.

Some grievances are justified. Some, less so. All sides have a mix of them.

We're talking about people who are inciting other people to acts of public political violence. Preparing to make war on their neighbors, planning to make war on their neighbors, and making war on their neighbors.

That goes beyond a "pot of grievances" and becomes a threat to the lives of other people.

So enough of the "both sides" bullshit. "Both sides" are not arming themselves to kill their counter-parties. The spokespeople for "both sides" are not trotting out justifications for killing people who disagree with them.

If you have something insightful to say, welcome aboard. If your contribution is "all of you people are stupid and blind to your own hypocrisy", this is probably not the best time to bring it.

You're more than capable of being blind to your own bullshit, just like the rest of us. If you think you're above it, you're not.

stri·dent
/ˈstrīdnt/

adjective
adjective: strident
1. loud and harsh; grating.

I did read that DiAngelo discussion, and I can't even find words for how disappointing it is to find nous calling byomtov "strident" because he disagreed with the "white fragility" dogma. If byomtov was strident, then there's probably no word in the language for what I would have had to say about DiAngelo.

Dude, Marty is above it all. He's here to occasionally drop some of his above-it-all wisdom on us.

Always with a heavy leavening of contempt for us, or for both sides when the rhetorical occasion warrants. It's really miraculous how superior he is to the rest of us.

What's the left's equivalent of QAnon?

The Democratic platform is a list of grievances from every tiny to large constituency they can separate out into a victim class. And has been for all 45 years I have been politically aware.

If you want to dislike Trump fine, but your problem is he represents the grievances of the people who have been blamed by the Democratic party for all that time. Mostly white males. Did the Democratic party, or you, think no one would come along and tell those people they deserved to be represented also?

And before the "well they were in charge" answer comes, the people that support him feel they are constantly not in charge, in fact they think no one represents them. They get talked bad about, blamed for every other set of victims in society and eventually someone showed up that said they mattered too.

I think what we should do is sit quietly and understand that we can't know how they feel. We should just listen better and accept we should let them tell us what to do to improve their situation.

but your problem is he represents the grievances of the people who have been blamed by the Democratic party for all that time


you let us know when the left abandons its core principles in order to follow a guy whose primary appeal is "he represents our grievances against the right".

that happened in 1964

Well,to clarify, I am not expressing contempt, I'm expressing confusion and frustration.

WTF, to me expresses that.

1964!

i'd go yell at my grandfather for being such a sell-out, if he hadn't been dead for forty years.

Joe Biden: white male

f'in Marxists

Including the El Paso attack, white supremacists were behind 81 percent of the domestic extremist-related murders in 2019. Right-wing extremists were responsible for 90 percent of such murders in 2019 and for 330 deaths over the course of the last decade, accounting for 76 percent of all domestic extremist-related murders in that time.

I'll tack this from my 2:20 Politico link onto cleek's comment:

One state law enforcement official, who requested anonymity to discuss intelligence matters, said the intelligence products DHS sends to its state and local partners emphasize the threat from left-wing extremists significantly more than the threat from right-wing extremists––and disproportionately so. Left-wing extremists have caused numerous problems and hurt police, the state official continued. “But none of them have been killed,” the official said. “But when we look at the far right, we’ve seen numerous attacks where cops have been killed.”

“I would expect at least a balanced production between far left and far right extremists,” the official continued.

The official also said he got much more helpful information on threats from the far right from the Anti-Defamation League than from DHS — particularly its material on Boogaloo, a coterie of extremists trying to incite a race war.

“They only have a handful of analysts at the ADL, and their handful of analysts put together a better product that the entire DHS,” the official said.

Earlier in the Trump administration, DHS’s intelligence arm disbanded a group of analysts focused on domestic terrorism.

Selim, of the ADL, said DHS’s sparse material for state and local partners on far-right threats and Boogaloo was concerning.

“It’s problematic,” he said. “The DHS’s mission and mandate is to protect against all threats both foreign and domestic.”

I have no idea what people like Carlson, Ingraham, et al actually want.

as i see it: they get paid to keep their audience angry at everyone who isn't a Republican. they want to get paid.

That was my take as well.

We've known for years that Limbaugh, for example, doesn't particularly believe the idiocy that he spouts. But he's an entertainer who knows what his audience wants, and is prepared to keep dishing it out. Not too much of a surprise that there are others of the same ilk.

The Democratic platform is a list of grievances from every tiny to large constituency they can separate out into a victim class.

The 2020 Democratic Platform.

A variety of sub-groups are called out. White males, specifically, are not.

So, you have a point.

If you actually look at the policies the (D)'s propose - support for labor, small businesses, farmers and rural communities - there actually is a lot there for the people you seem to be concerned about.

The (R)'s don't have a platform. Not just a platform that doesn't address the needs of white males, but no platform at all.

Their platform is Donald J Trump. The guy who says they matter.

And the guy that showed up to say that they mattered has given them fuck-all. Donald Trump cares about people who he can sell luxury. condos to. He cares about people who want to stay in his hotels. He cares about people who want to pay him for the use of his name. He cares about people who will pay $200K a year to stay at his golf club.

The people you are talking about, are not those people. They don't have the money. Trump does not give a shit about them.

Trump gave them a tax cut that went overwhelmingly to the wealthy. He gave them a federal deficit that is going to put the kinds of programs they live by - SS, Medicare - at risk. He gave them a shrug and a big "what me worry?" when almost 200K of them fucking died of COVID.

He is a lying sack of shit. He doesn't give a flying f**k about anyone but himself and, perhaps, a handful of his rich buddies.

More fools they, all the people who thought he was their guy.

So, in addition to your point, there's all of that.

I'm fine with listening to people. I'm all ears if people want to talk about what they need.

I won't put up with people threatening war. What we've been talking about here, in this thread, are people who are threatening war.

White males who feel abused by life need to wise up and recognize who has their best interests in mind. I'm sure they feel left out when the (D)'s talk about the problems of black people and brown people and gay people and women, and I'm also sure they are included, even if not by name, when the (D)'s talk about small business owners, and the middle class, and farmers, and rank and file labor.

They need to get smart, because the (R)'s are shining them the hell on.

that happened in 1964

I have no idea what this even means.

Deep in our hearts, we knew he was right?

My turn to say WTF.

I won't put up with people threatening war. What we've been talking about here, in this thread, are people who are threatening war.

Your problem, russell, is that you are believing fake news. Marty has the real dope (with a dollop of contempt):

Ffs, we are experiencing Civil Rights Era weather underground violence today. The building violence is all from the left and it isn't civil disobedience, its f'ing violence.

Yall sit here jawing about monsters under the bed while real, dangerous people are rioting and beating people across the country daily.

Such bs. When Joe wins and the people who actually respect the law take their open carry weapons and quietly wait for the next election, or noisily wait for the next election, will anyone here admit to being wrong?

Naw, you'll just find a picture of some guy with a rifle and get the vapors while ignoring people in black masks looting and pulling people out of cars and beating them.

Posted by: Marty | August 18, 2020 at 08:09 PM

(The Potemkin thread, third page. Comment links don't seem to work very well.)

I'm sure all that stuff about Kyle Rittenhouse and the Kenosha PD is also fake news, and that they all respect the law to the hilt.

we are experiencing Civil Rights Era weather underground violence today.

FWIW, today shows little resemblance to the early 1970s. (Which I assume is what is meant by the "Civil Rights Era", since the Weather Underground didn't even come into existence until 1969.) Take it from someone who was there, it just doesn't. For one thing, far fewer violent actions (from those outside the Weather Underground, mind). And when you subtract out the violent actions by those on the right (outside the South, for the 1070s), the numbers go down even further.

That whole threatening war thing, I wont put up with that either. But it isn't the right occupying our cities. If a war comes the left will start it.

JanieM - swap "vociferous" for "strident" if that goes easier on your sense of fairness. But his dislike was not expressed in quiet terms.

If a war comes the left will start it.

oh fer sher, fer sher.

i have no doubt whatsoever that no matter what happens, the right will blame the left. they're doing it right now. they're doing it right fucking now to justify driving around shooting crowds with paintballs and tear gas - actions which easily warrant lethal response.

and were the left as bloodthirsty as their Conservatively-imagined caricatures are supposed to be, not one of those pickups would have made it to the next fucking block with a breathing Trump supporter on board.

Trump and his cadre of nihilistic ghouls are encouraging their shock troops to go into "our cities" and kill protestors.

and, "our cities"?

the Trumpsucking fuckwads who came to soil my town with their racism and dreams of fighting antifa this summer came from everywhere but here.

no, there is no doubt that Marty will blame the left for everything. that's a guarantee.

it isn't the right occupying our cities. If a war comes the left will start it.

This is a bizarre statement. I can only assume that you believe it because it fits your personal preoccupations.

There are no cities that are "occupied" by anybody, right or left. None. There are cities where there are riots. The people engaged in the public violence are from both the right and the left, where for "the right" we have organizations like the Kenosha Guard and a parade of Donald J Trump supporters in pickup trucks, and on "the left" we have a disorganized rabble of self-styled anarchists.

There is literally no significant public figure to the left of Genghis Khan who is encouraging anybody to take up arms or engage in violence of any sort. There is no support, whatsoever, in the (D) party or the institutional "left" in the US for public violence. There is nobody in the (D) party or any similar institution that is recommending that its people acquire arms and prepare to go to war with their own government or their neighbors.

Nobody.

If a war comes the left will start it.

Sure. Someone on the left might not do exactly what the Proud Boys and Boogaloo Boys say, thereby provoking the Proud Boys and Boogaloo, who will start shooting (well, start shooting more than they already have). That's how the left with start it.

They want a f**king race war, according to them. But it will be the fault of Black people and those who stand up for Black people when it happens, because white supremacy is the peaceful status quo being upended.

There aren't enough Proud boys to start a war. There aren't even enough militia to start a war.

The right can put together a 50 person rally for the most part.

The left will start the war.

the people that support him feel they are constantly not in charge, in fact they think no one represents them. They get talked bad about, blamed for every other set of victims in society and eventually someone showed up that said they mattered too.

Well, true as this may be, they got taken for a ride. You could, if you were feeling particularly heartless, say "more fool them". But actually, it's a tragedy that (to the extent they are) they are continuing to support politicians who have nothing but contempt for them. cleek @03.34 and hsh @03.39 show exactly how wrong Marty was in the post Janie quotes above @03.45. But Marty, despite his contempt for Trump, has swallowed wholesale the lie that both sides are equally to blame (or even that the left is mostly to blame). That continuing sort of baseless propaganda, combined with the enabling and stoking by the White House and its allies, will be what leads to some kind of civil war. People will not put up with being gaslighted forever.

Tell me how many people belong to militia organizations in the US. Do you know?

How many in the Klan and related white supremacist groups. Do you know?

Any idea? 50? 1,000? 50,000? A million?

Just an order of magnitude number. Any clue?

It's not worth discussing this with you, because you don't know what you're talking about.

Have a nice day.

There aren't enough Proud boys to start a war.

it takes very little to start a war, once you have enough people primed to fight one.

and there are literally hudrdeds of right-wing militias in the US today. some of them, like the 3%ers and the Oath Keepers have many thousands of members. and they are eager to tell as many people as they can about how they are ready to fight the upcoming war.

1964.

The Gulf of Tonkin?

The Beatles appear on Ed Sullivan?

What? WHAT?

Where are the left's militias? What are they called? Don't say "Antifa" unless you want to get laughed out of the room.

Socialist Rifle Club.
Redneck Revolt.

That's about it.

Let me know when they come to your town.

If a war comes the left will start it.

That's, like, totally indisputable. After all, if Trump loses and the right starts a shooting, the left will have started the war because they blocked Trump's reelection. Once you accept the overall world view, it makes complete sense.

Of course, if you don't embrace that deluded world view, it's pretty daft to claim that, necessarily, the folks with all the guns weren't the ones who started using them.

russell, the highest number anyone estimates militia membership at is 60k across the US. More realistic estimates tend toward 30k. Thats not enough to start a war.

Oh look up militias in Wikipedia, im pretty sure that's where I got the latest numbers from.

There is also the Not Fucking Around Coalition (NFAC), but I don't have a link for them.

Redneck Revolt started in 2009. NFAC started in 2020.

These recent formations are a response to the Tea Party open carry marches and the right-wing militias.

Before that you had the black bloc types at Occupy. I'm guessing they numbered in the low hundreds.

Thats not enough to start a war.

how many people started WWI?

if shooting starts, people will join in.

the highest number anyone estimates militia membership at is 60k across the US. More realistic estimates tend toward 30k.

Tens of thousands is probably in the neighborhood. If you count militias plus 3 percenters plus Oath Keepers plus KKK plus all of the similar grab bag of knuckleheads, the higher estimate is probably the more accurate.

There isn't going to be a "war", because not enough people want a war. This will, frankly, be a disappointment to many right-wingers, who are quite vocal about their wish to shoot other people.

What there already is, and what shows no sign of dying down, are incidents of organized violence. From the left, and from the right. In terms of loss of life, violence from the right is of far greater concern, orders of magnitude greater concern.

The violence from the left receives no support whatsoever from anyone remotely on "the left" in the United States. Not the (D)'s, not anyone representing the (D)'s, not any talking head or pundit, not anyone.

The right is a completely different story.

There is also the Not Fucking Around Coalition (NFAC)

It's not clear to me that NFAC are "left" in any sense. I wouldn't be surprised to find some (R)'s in their ranks. They're black.

Estimates I've seen in studies put the alt-right at about 11 million. That's a bit over 5% of the non-hispanic-white population. It's less than the 3% that the 3%ers aim for, but the accelerationists are hoping that open conflict will drive more people into their numbers.

And what makes anyone think that they are going to be dissuaded by the fact that theirs is a lost cause?

Not civil war, a shadow army like the Klan.

the highest number anyone estimates militia membership at is 60k across the US. More realistic estimates tend toward 30k. Thats not enough to start a war.

But consider how many folks there are out there who, while they haven't joined a militia, have a bunch of guns to "defend themselves from the ravening hordes." Of whom they are terrified. If the shooting starts, they'll jump right in.

A spark plug, on its own, doesn't provide enough power to move a car significantly. Not even close. But consider what it can initiate.

And, russell, we know that the NFAC is going to be counted as left on skin color alone, and get lumped in with BLM, and be grandfathered in as marxist by association.

And then there are the allies in useful places.

we know that the NFAC is going to be counted as left on skin color alone, and get lumped in with BLM, and be grandfathered in as marxist by association.

Commie cooties!!

1964.

...

What? WHAT?

In 1964 the (D) party abandoned their traditional principles and got the Civil Rights Act passed.

The did so with very strong support from the (R) party of the time.

And then all the southern (D)'s became (R)'s.

In terms of loss of life, violence from the right is of far greater concern, orders of magnitude greater concern.

Tons of evidence for this (and acts of violence or "domestic terrorism" not necessarily resulting in loss of life) has been produced, quoted and linked on this very blog, for many months. None has been produced to show the opposite. The current protests, and BLM demonstrations, have been used by various violent factions (on both sides) to make, and stoke, trouble to muddy the water. Trump et al are enthusiastically taking advantage, and their counterfactual propaganda appears to be quite successful, in some quarters. Let's hope not enough.

Ah, yes, 1964. A pivotal year, when black lives started to matter a little too much for the usual suspects.

The Confederate Right, put-upon victims all, blamed the Lincoln Union Left for magnetizing themselves and attracting the metal shells of Beauregard's big guns at Fort Sumter, starting that civil war, a much sentimentalized event by southern boys to this day.

Five years later, right-wing racist confederate grievance-monger and father of the Republican Party, John Wilkes Booth, heard Lincoln tout the possibility of the freed slaves gaining the votes and said, like so many have said since, "That means nigger citizenship" and shot Lincoln, paving the way for Trump's defunding of the Post Office to stymie minority voting and steal the November election for the grievance-ridden butt hurt white majority who have been fully in charge of the entire coast to coast sheebang in this country for every day of the 88,330 days, give or take, this country has been in existence and during which my white rights have been deemed "natural, and God-given from the get-go, while equal minority rights have been deemed something I, the white man, bestows upon ... "gives" ... the rest of humanity in this country with much foot-dragging, waitandseeism, yeah-but-what-about-ism, and general mealy mouthed redlining fucking pig shit.

The Founder of the Oath Keepers ... all of whom should have been shot dead every time their camoed (they actually think they blend in) beer-bellied gun-toters have shown up in every trouble spot around the country over the past 15 years and counting, along with the Bundy family, and who still call their fat-ass privileged selves "unrepresented", except by filthy right wing law firms, and who got away with mayhem, rioting, tax cheating, destruction of government property and buildings (which now c*cksucking republicans want to protect .. imagine that, those gummint-haters protecting gummint structures, after Oklahoma city, after numerous IRA facilities being bombed and on and on and on) ...

... has already announced the start of the Civil War, so waiting around for liberals to start something is a day late and about 8 trillion Citizen's United dollars short.

“The first shot has been fired brother,” said Stewart Rhodes, founder of the armed anti-government group Oath Keepers, in a tweet Sunday. “Civil war is here, right now. We’ll give Trump one last chance to declare this a Marxist insurrection & suppress it as his duty demands. If he fails to do HIS duty, we will do OURS.”

Don't call me brother.

Marxist. What fatuous bullshit. No wonder there is no sanity clause.

As for the Proud Boys, their mums and their sisters, their girlfriends, and their wives, all of whom whose affections were returned with rape and a demand for a beer while the ladies are up, they may start something, but fighting one handed as they do .... their good hand always busy rooting around down the front of their own pants checking for manhood and spare change for the glory hole booths ... yelling BOO! at them will scatter them into the underbrush.

There's a fortune to be made in cornering the market in canned pinto beans.

In 1964 the (D) party abandoned their traditional principles and got the Civil Rights Act passed.

The[y] did so with very strong support from the (R) party of the time.

And then all the southern (D)'s became (R)'s.

The missing step there is that the Southern Democrats got sucked in by Nixon. Who hadn't been in Congress to vote on the Civil Rights Act, and so was untainted. A different Republican candidate would have had a harder time. And perhaps the racists in the South would have gone away and formed their own party -- the neo-Whigs, perhaps?

“The first shot has been fired brother,”

was that in Oakland, El Paso, Tallahassee, Jeffersontown, Pittsburgh, Orange Co, Charlottesville, Portland, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Not the first time and not the last time last time by any means that violent white war vigilante militia mobs joined up with white racist police forces to murder and butcher black neighborhoods and burn them to the ground.

The black population, natch, was blamed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

Not many, if anyone, prosecuted.

To this day, reparations are still vainly sought.

I wonder if Barr and Trump will bomb the black neighborhoods from the air, as happened in Tulsa.

Harding, though corrupt, like filthy animal Trump, but unlike subhuman trump did not travel to Tulsa, open his fly, and piss gasoline on the ruins.

Trump, the arsonist, peddles the same Marty bullshit that our cities have been occupied, sez all of Portland is on fire.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Portland+fire+department+Trump+ablaze&filters=tnTID%3a%22109517FF-55B3-4fe1-ADFB-D28236007036%22+tnVersion%3a%223683040%22+Segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%225%22+tnOrder%3a%229a5c470a-9f74-4d24-a52e-20a9ccaacefc%22&efirst=5&form=HPNN01

Portland Fire Department, ya know, front line Americans who actually put their asses in harm's way, sez fuck off, you're a stinking republican out-a-town, outside agitating lying gasbag.

California sez it IS on fire, Trump sez what fires? Take a broom to the forest and quit getting the vapors, like some liberal seeing a photo of a guy with a gun.

https://www.tmz.com/2018/01/19/las-vegas-shooting-stephen-paddock-room-dead-body-cameras/

Photos of real life vapors:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41466859

Marty gotta little steamed about some loudmouths leaning over a railing and shouting down an innocent trying to eat her potato salad in peace, not that I blame him, I wish I was there punching the jerks yelling at the diners.

I mean ... a photo of same is what steamed him.

Think of all of the right wing filth in this country who enabled, encouraged that Las Vegas murderer to collect those weapons and ammo.

Think of the vapors they will experience when decent Americans hunt them down.

I guess I’ve got one in the spam trap?

released one from about an hour ago - jm

The missing step there is that the Southern Democrats got sucked in by Nixon.

Absolutely not. They did not get "sucked in" by anybody. They realized their place in the Democratic Party was a political dead end, and they and the conservative "movement" jointly initiated a concerted and very self conscious Maoist Long March to take over the Republican Party.

And they have succeeded.

People seem to be under the mistaken impression that the New Deal Coalition began to break up in the 60's. In actuality, it first began to majorly fray in the late 30's as the Southern Dems and the GOP teamed up to torpedo the New Deal in Congress.

Take a broom to the forest and quit getting the vapors

Rake.

The folks in CA were supposed to rake the forest. Like they do in Finland.

I feel I should speak up in defense of Marty. I am very familiar with his core argument. I grew up in Detroit, and my (white) family and friends are Trump supporters (though most men are supporters, most women are not). I have formulated 3 articles of faith my people believe in:


  • all politicians are corrupt hypocrites
  • all politics is theatre
  • any reference to racism accuses me of being a racist

Though you can replace "racism" with any other ism. The core idea is that any reference to white people is an attack on me, personally.

This is why Marty pivots to a personal defense when the discussion turns to ism. It's a personal attack. My people feel the same way.

Chezz Whiz - the hit dog yelps, Lady Macbeth doth protest too much, etc. etc.

I'm done with people who want to burn the country down because they don't want to be civil to POC/LGBTQ/women/disabled/etc.

Their sense of self depends on being at the tippety-top of the food chain, and everyone else is food?

F*ck that.

Right? Poor, white males ... waahhhh!!!

In Colorado, we see this:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/31/1973842/-Sen-Cory-Gardner-attends-maskless-gun-range-BBQ-with-Republican-official-in-Kill-em-all-shirt

So, why shouldn't I purchase a semi-automatic AR-15, bump stock it, and have it converted to fully automatic and attend republican murderous fetes?

Hanh?

No PHOTOS of guns.

Actual military grade weaponry designed expressly to slaughter human beings is what you see at Republican brown shirt picnics.

Well, WW1 got really going when Belgium invaded Germany in 1914. And Hitler only started to shoot back after men in Polish uniforms raided a German radio station. So it's pure marxist revisionism to claim that Germany had anything to do with either world war [/s]

Faggot liberal pansy gun control freak threatens fascist vaccine-loving, mask-mongering public health official with violence, in yet another of the first shots in the liberal civil war against America's vital bodily fluids:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/alleged-boogaloo-member-arrested-for-treat-against-public-health-official/ar-BB18Cgk2?ocid=uxbndlbing

It's sez "treat" in the link.

I think they mean "trick".

https://digbysblog.net/2020/09/the-nazis-are-welcome-in-trumps-america/

Yeah, liberals are the killers.

I think what we should do is sit quietly and understand that we can't know how they feel. We should just listen better and accept we should let them tell us what to do to improve their situation.

What I want to point out here is that this is what people like "White Fragility" DiAngelo say we need to do, except she says we need to do it for black people.

Like, exactly. Verbatim. Your comment here could be a quote from "White Fragility".

And this:

he represents the grievances of the people who have been blamed by the Democratic party for all that time.

Substitute any of the folks who have been "separated into a victim class" for white people and swap Republican for Democratic, and you could use this verbatim as well.

You are simply separating white people - white males especially - into a separate victim class. Nobody represents them, nobody listens to them, everybody blames them for everything.

So we are left with - what - competing lists of grievances? A contest about who has been treated the worst?

The constituencies you are talking about here - rural whites in particular - *have representation in government that is proportionately greater than their numbers in the population*. Via the Senate, via the Electoral College. How is it that "nobody represents them"?

And from their sense of grievance, they have delivered unto us the worst POTUS that has ever held the office. And likely another that is somewhere in the bottom 10%. All in the last 20 years.

I completely understand and agree that white working people and rural communities in general have been taken for granted by the (D) party for at least the last 30 years. Probably beginning with the Clintons. The focus of the party *as an institution* has been on the larger cities.

Policies, less so. But in terms of the focus of attention, rural and working class whites have a complaint with the (D) party.

That was a strategic error, and was also simply wrong.

But the (R) party is no friend to the people you claim to be concerned about. The (R) party is friendly to entrepreneurial capital, and that is pretty much it.

All the people who are working their asses off and can't afford health insurance, can't save enough money to retire on, can't scratch up $1,000 bucks in cash if their car craps out, let alone $10,000 if they have a medical emergency - the (R) party has nothing for them.

Go get rich. Root hog or die. That is the (R) answer to those folks.

Upthread, GFTNC says:

You could, if you were feeling particularly heartless, say "more fool them"

I suppose I must be feeling particularly heartless, because I do say that. If so, it's because how freaking furious it makes me to see them lining up behind such an obvious and transparent fraud.

I have no solution to offer. People will have to figure this out for themselves. Many, probably most of them, will not.

Trump will probably lose the popular vote by single digit millions. Which is absurd.

And in spite of that, he may well win the Electoral College. And then we will be well and truly rogered.

Thank you, aggrieved white males.

This is why Marty pivots to a personal defense when the discussion turns to ism. It's a personal attack. My people feel the same way.

Marty can speak for himself.

The "ism" that people are generally talking about these days is racism. The thing they are generally saying about it, is that it's ubiquitous. It's a tendency, most people are prone to it, most people who are prone to it are likely not that aware of it.

In general, in most cases there isn't even any ill will involved.

That's what the argument generally is, about racism.

How you (or they, or whoever) get a personal attack out of that escapes me. It's the opposite of a personal attack.

How you (or they, or whoever) get a personal attack out of that escapes me. It's the opposite of a personal attack.

Explanation: if it's ubiquitous, then I have it, too. So saying it's ubiquitous is saying that *I* am a racist. (And that everybody else is, too. But that's irrelevant -- you said I was.) I don't accept that I might be. Even if I did, it's still a pejorative. That makes it a personal attack.

Not saying there aren't holes in the logic you could drive a truck thru. But that's how they get there.

people give me a headache.

on a completely different note, apropos of nothing, I've been enjoying this website.

might as well use the internetz for something enjoyable.

Explanation: if it's ubiquitous, then I have it, too. So saying it's ubiquitous is saying that *I* am a racist.

I've tried the 'what you said/did/etc was racist' and make pains to say that I'm not saying the person is racist, that's something for them to decide. I've also tried the above on ubiquity, often adding an explicit statement that I too am racist as well, to be raised in the US or indeed perhaps in the 1st world is to be marinated in it and you don't escape it because you can't escape it. Doesn't seem to work, the moment the topic comes up, it's shields up.

I guess this is why privilege is used, to somehow make people pause before they go on red alert. However, judging from recent discussions, the word has gotten attached to racism. Possibly by people using it as a cudgel on others, but when I talk about it, I try to make it clear that I have to 'check my privilege' as well.

It's also a reason why I like links: It's easier to talk about the article etc as problematic rather than to talk about the person. That isn't perfect either, it is easy to take the attack on the piece as an attack on the person.

This article seems relevant: "Research published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of the Sciences articulates the link between what author Larry Bartels of Vanderbilt University describes as “ethnic antagonism” and views that run contrary to core democratic principles."

The comments to this entry are closed.