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March 30, 2020

Comments

No single person, even jackass, is the reason this is happening.

Marty, this is true, as others have said.

But Jackass has lied since the beginning, and continues to lie, and (truth of this still to be determined) it looks like he is prioritising the medical and aid needs of states whose governors are "appreciative". This certainly would be in character. He seems to think that presidential press conferences are purely for propaganda purposes, sees no problem with accusing reporters who try to do their job and hold the executive to account of being "nasty", and does everything he can to keep the American people in the dark. Meanwhile, people on (very roughly) your side of the aisle spin dangerous falsehoods about Fauci, because as a truth-teller he is seen as endangering the Jackass project, to the point where he needs extra security protection.

It seems you have to work really hard to spin this as a bipartisan fuckup.

Much worse thwn it should have been is a non-falsifiable bullshit claim. Period. Despite Trump being a jsckass there is no evidence any extreme action would have been taken by any other President. As much as everyone needs someone to blame it is the nature of the office to be slow to take extreme measures.

lj, I have spent considerable time on the package this week. Mostly on the small business and individual parts. There is, as you might expect, a steady flow of clarifications and changes. Happy to share where we think things are.

I havent seen anyone of importance impugn Fauci, I have seen people discuss the models he is using but no one really question him.

All Presidential press conferences are for propaganda. Five weeks ago he was berated for not having press conferences, now no one wants him to talk. He sucks at speaking off the cuff and when he follows the script it seems wooden and unconvincing.

There is absolutely zero evidence the government has denied any state request based on his likes or dislikes of a governor. The President is not in that supply chain.

As far as actually lying, it would be in character, but I'm not sure what lies he is still telling. Or how that might translate to the on the ground response.

As much as everyone needs someone to blame it is the nature of the office to be slow to take extreme measures.

But seriously, is it the nature of the office to stand there and lie to the public every day? And not just about what he did and said, and when?

It's very true that there's work to be done, and spending all one's time criticising Jackass is not very productive. But defending Jackass, or at least the Jackass administration, is even less productive, to put it mildly, because it gives cover and protection, also in the future, for such egregious malfeasance.

I didn't have to go far (first google search: Rush Limbaugh Fauci) to find this. You may say Limbaugh's no-one of importance, and I'd agree except for his vast reach to people on your side of the aisle. And from his lips to crazy extremists' ears, and hey presto Fauci needs extra protection because he's receiving threats:

Then there's — here, look, I'm dancing around something here. I alluded to this last Friday, in the all-too brief phone call I made to the program, to let you all know I was still alive. I have a building, an ongoing problem with — we called it the “Deep State,” but whatever it is. This layer of experts in everything, be it intelligence, foreign policy, health, whatever. We didn't elect any of these people, and we're told they're experts and that we must abide, and we have no choice. And I've just seen too much in the past three years of this large group of people trying to undermine Donald Trump and the 2016 election.

This was from a call where just before, he paid lip service to Fauci and Birx by name, but then dogwhistled back on it. The full link is here.

https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/rush-limbaugh-ties-coronavirus-warnings-deep-state-trying-undermine-trump-and

And this was the first search I did.

I havent seen anyone of importance impugn Fauci,

not sure of the importance of "important", when things turn in this direction:

Anthony S. Fauci, the nation’s top infectious-diseases expert and the face of the U.S. response to the novel coronavirus pandemic, is facing growing threats to his personal safety, prompting the government to step up his security, according to people familiar with the matter.

The concerns include threats as well as unwelcome communications from fervent admirers, according to people with knowledge of deliberations inside the Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Justice.

...


Fauci has become a public target for some right-wing commentators and bloggers, who exercise influence over parts of the president’s base. As they press for the president to ease restrictions to reinvigorate economic activity, some of these figures have assailed Fauci and questioned his expertise.

but I'm not sure what lies he is still telling

here's a batch from last night. he's lying about testing, about planning, about ventilators, about calling it "the flu", "I think the one thing nobody really knew about this virus was how contagious it was."

his lies having taken a strong CYA/blame-deflection color, as people realize how badly he fucked it all up.

As far as actually lying, it would be in character, but I'm not sure what lies he is still telling.

I'm searching for a constantly updated list (there must be one) but in the meantime this was in the New Yorker five days ago:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-trumps-washington/the-trump-oclock-follies

The one that sticks particularly in my mind is the one about how he knew it was a pandemic even before it was declared a pandemic. And the one about how there were only 15 cases in the US, and it would soon be down to zero. And the one about how it would disappear as if by magic in the warm weather. The recent ones (about testing etc) are factchecked every day in various independent news media, unless they are getting falsehood fatigue.

Marty, why are you defending a man you think so poorly of? This is not a good use of your or my time - you admit at least that lying would be in character, can't you see the damage this does to the public perception of what's happening, and therefore to mitigation efforts?

Thanks, cleek. Nuff said.

Admittedly, had Obama (or any of the Clintons for that matter) proposed the measures now seen as necessary by medical experts, the result would have been a firestorm from the usual supects on the Right. The field was well-prepared for large swaths of the population to believe that it was all a pretense for the long-expected leftist coup d'etat (to be followed by concentration and death camps after and accompanied by taking of all guns).
I very much doubt that the GOP would have agreed to any aid or stimulus package by now. And we would either still be in 'it's a hoax' phase or in the 'the Dems are doin NOTHING, NOTHING to help America weather this crisis' phase (and Moscow Mitch already tries to blame it all on the Dems because of impeachment).
I guess the Elder Bush was the last president who c/would have been able/fit AND allowed to handle the crisis.

I'm not defending Trump, I'm pointing out that the constant "fact checking" of his statements is unproductive. He will not admit he was wrong, dont expect it. Blaming him because someone dies is stupid and unproductive, even if he was wrong.

Everybody in government has made decisions on their interpretation of the facts at the time. Problems are getting solved to the best of everyone's ability.

I actually agree with that assessment Hartmut.

Problems are getting solved to the best of everyone's ability.

I'm wondering why this isn't "a non-falsifiable bullshit claim" Because it is you saying it rather than one of us iijit libertards? I mean, if it wasn't to the best, how would we prove it?

But I'm left with the impression that you have a very low opinion of the ability of the US as a nation.

As an aside, linking to the Times is not productive in discussions with me, I wouldnt pay them a dime, ever.

man, the Party of Personal Responsibility sure ain't what it used to (claim to) be.

No cleek, the difference is I believe he was wrong, but most commentary on the left applies some nefarious motive, ranging from indifference to actively wanting deaths in blue areas, to him.

Its clear he was wrong, the rest is just the hating Trump syndrome which is wrong also. All politicians lie, he is just really bad at it.

No links to the Times on this page, that I can see. Do you eschew the facts in the WaPo and the New Yorker too? In which case, Jackass's work is done.

WJ--Civil Forfeiture is despised by many conservatives--including me--and embraced by others across the spectrum, where there is a distinct authoritarian streak that extends well beyond CF.

Bernie doesn't seem to know what it means either

Hence my point about hair-splitters.

I like that conservatives are concerned about foreign influence in our politics again, tho.

Perfection.

(Although in the interests of fairness, I suppose it should be said that McKinney himself has in the past been outspoken in his contempt for Trump's admiration for despots, dictators and thugs).

Thanks for remembering that. For the record, I did not vote for Trump. I stated the case and my preference for impeachment, and for everyone here who thinks DT has bungled the pandemic, I agree. I did not say otherwise. My point is that we don't seem to be any worse off than many if not most other significantly affected areas, which raise its own set of questions completely unrelated to the "DT's the worst president ever and look what he just did!" refrain.

That said, I made the point about Sanders for a reason. A size-able chunk of the left/Democrat Party was fine with a man who erroneously called himself a socialist (does anyone here see why this might be a problem?). If you're not already out there on the prog wing of the left, or if your not a Democrat apparatchik, that kind of thing gives DT and people like him something to talk about. The reason is that what the Progs and those to their left have to offer is equally problematic and it's structural.

In this same vein, heads have exploded here since the election about Putin and the Russians. Without debating the merits of those views, I find a country like the PRC concealing and denying the existence of a disease for months and letting infected people travel the world to be at least mildly problematic. And, Sapient, just because the Party tells the world it has things under control doesn't mean squat. So, the fact that we have this problem due to PRC criminality blows right by everyone because DT is so awful. If you think that doesn't make others outside your comfort zone--about 90% of the country--wonder about your priorities, then my point is made.

The fixation with DT to the exclusion of all else is problematic. It is the flip side of the coin with the right's fixation with Obama or Clinton.

Not hearing from CharlesWT about how lack of government helps here. This is an example of how disdain for government's role has a detrimental effect.

Wouldn't mind McKinney commenting either. I know that McKinney doesn't style himself a libertarian, or have any views that one can pin down. He's kind of squishy, and can glom on to whatever seems successful. Convenient.

No views that can be pinned down? Really? You think it's convenient for me to be openly anti-Trump in many of the circles I've run in for years? Or, that I bend to the majority views here as some kind of accommodation?

As for your article, I begin with the fact that we bought a couple thousand non-functional ventilators, and then ask, how does that happen? My firm's practice brings us into close contact with a variety of medical providers--all of whom buy their stuff from known, reliable vendors who stand behind their products (they have to, to stay in business). So, I'm wondering how that vendor was selected--crony capitalism is a bipartisan affliction--so I'm completely open to that possibility. The open question is whether and to what extent and how effectively the vendor was vetted. Was the acquisition led by a political appointee or by a full-time federal employee? If it's the latter, then I'd want to know that person's skill set and to evaluate that person's diligence/aptitude and so on.

My preference for the private sector is driven in part by stories like this. Government, in general, does not and cannot do what the private sector does, which is create a range--often a wide range--of fairly-to-highly specialized, self-interested actors who have the ability, knowledge and personal motivation to make sure they are getting what they pay for.

Or maybe russell, federal government as the solution for everything has made it incompetent at the things it really should be good at.

It's not as if the federal government has just a small staff, and if you give them too much to do they just can't manage it all. As it takes on more responsibility it adds people to do the work.

Of course, constant vilification of "unelected bureaucrats," ignoring and disdaining their expertise for political reasons, and so on, by the right tends to make it harder to hire and keep good people.

so, since nothing is Trump's fault, i'm sure the "conservatives" here will be very upset when Trump takes credit for the eventual recovery?

right?

right?

hey, stop laughing back there!

hartmut: [Sorry, no proper (English) slants or slander against Italians coming to mind not mafia related]

Not exactly what you're looking for, but there are certainly other names besides dago. Wop is one, guinea is another. I was "affectionately" called "Grease" and "Little Grease" by "friends" in college, because you know, "greasy Italians."

And I've probably quoted this before, but in a letter from my dad's former employer to his prospective one: "X is a very hard worker, even though his people are Italian."

There's a nice slant for you: laziness. My dad and his brothers were the hardest working people I've ever known. It made no matter.

Hence my point about hair-splitters.

so you're mad that Sanders calls himself something he's not because that actual something is bad but not what Sanders actually is?

riiiight.

Marty: He will not admit he was wrong, dont expect it.

Nobody expects it of He, Trump. Only foolish optimists expect it of Marty.

BTW, Marty, what would you do with an employee of yours who "will not admit he was wrong"?

What if his friends on your staff advised you not to expect anything better? Would you think they were urging you to fire him, or keep him on?

--TP

Tony, If he was President I wouldnt vote for him.

In a new survey from the Pew Research Center, 79 percent of Fox viewers say the media is exaggerating the risks of the coronavirus pandemic. And there’s more: 39 percent believe the virus was developed in a lab—presumably a Chinese bioweapons lab.

hmm. i wonder which liberal gave them those ideas?

but, of course, the "conservatives" are very very upset about the mean old liberals.

taking responsibility for their own deranged party? pshaw.

Thanks for remembering that. For the record, I did not vote for Trump. I stated the case and my preference for impeachment, and for everyone here who thinks DT has bungled the pandemic, I agree.

I always try to be fair. It's a vote for the kind of behaviour I also value in others, and which actually progresses discussions. Your second sentence is much appreciated, for the same reason.

GftNC,

Thanks for pointing that out. I go back and forth on WaPo. But I dont have a subscription currently. Mostly if I see something I want to know about I can get the facts with an internet search without the bias of either of those sites.

The problem with WaPo is you have to pay attention to who wrote things, they have left and right opinion writers but most of what they present as news is also skewed one way or the other.

The Times just sucks.

This is worthwhile to consider in the context of this discussion

https://threader.app/conversation/1244962905617031170/iWFFARFzBq

I have the same opinion of the Times that Marty has, only from the opposite direction

me: "X is a very hard worker, even though his people are Italian."

There's a nice slant for you: laziness. My dad and his brothers were the hardest working people I've ever known. It made no matter.

For the record, this was after one of those lazy uncles of mine had been awarded a Silver Star for things he did in WWII, and right around the time another one of them was busy dying in the Korean War.

Janie, I have always remembered this story since you first told it here, as an astonishing example of racism and prejudice while under the guise of (and presumably intention to) praise. I can only guess at how hurtful this was, if it wasn't so widespread that it elicited a cynical shrug. There are plenty of similar examples about Jews, but I am lucky enough (and born late enough) never to have personally had to suffer them. This may change or be changing, of course.

Just in case you want to know the etymology, wop is said to come from guappo. For guinea, it comes with the association to Africa. There was a lot of this with Spain as well, and I remember, back in the late 80's a French slur on Spaniards was to say that Africa starts at the Pyrenees.

Thanks, GftNC. I know these comments are a sidetrack from what everyone really wants to talk about (again) (and again) (and yet again), but in pleading guilty I assert that Hartmut started it. ;-)

I find that younger people have never even heard these terms, which I guess is progress of a sort, although the progress has come partly at the expense of some "Italians" in America joining the other side in relation to other out-groups.

But -- this is a sidetrack, so I'm shoving off for now.

JanieM,I am aware of the Italian stereotype(s), they just did not fit the context here. And although I have heard a lot of nation specific epithets, not all of them (at least the English ones) are necessarily at the top of my mind. Btw, Germans see Italians less as lazy* than as careless (and carefree of course ;-) ), i.e. as people who do not read the manual and do not think about the consequences in advance. And both the Spanish and the Italians are seen as hotheads and easily offended.

Another 'classic': "The Italians have entered the war" - "What a mishap/misfortune."
"On our side" - "A disaster/catastrophe"
(to that I can only say that in the World Wars the Italians were highly incompetent on the higher levels but showed some exceptional ingenuity and bravery in certain areas on the lower ones, e.g. naval commando work)

*that we assume to be the vice of our Eastern, not Southern neighbours.

I admit to have started the 'nasty synonym' thread deviation. It was merely meant as a satirical take on 'no one blames Italians/Spaniards the way the Chinese get blamed now'. The former are indeed seen mainly as victims at the moment but that is imo quite an aberration. The common thing would be to put most of the blame on them for what happens to/in the rest of Europe (like Mexico gets usually treated by the US). Independent of them actually having done something wrong or not.

Meanwhile on the economic front (from the Economist):

The oil price, however, is showing some signs of recovery. The price of Brent Crude (the international benchmark) surged more than 12% to $27.88 a barrel after Donald Trump said on Wednesday night that he had spoken to the leaders of Saudi Arabia and Russia and that their oil-price war could end “in a few days”.
Have the oil traders somehow not got the word on how closely Trump's words coincide with reality? Which is to say: NOT!

Not to mention that he shows no sign of being able to negotiate his way out of a paper bag. Especially with two guys whose contempt for him has to be so huge, based on their past dealings, that it must be challenging to avoid showing it.

Personally, I think these detours fulfil a salutary purpose: man (and woman) cannot live by political argument alone. But I do realise, and apologise in advance for, how my view contributes to poor thread discipline!

Btw, Germans see Italians less as lazy* than as careless (and carefree of course ;-) ), i.e. as people who do not read the manual and do not think about the consequences in advance.

Like . . . um . . . Ferrari? Fiat? Lamborghini?

I find a country like the PRC concealing and denying the existence of a disease for months and letting infected people travel the world to be at least mildly problematic.

Months? Do you really know what the timeline looked like?

The first case (using hindsight) was in November, but the disease was not understood until late December. "On Dec. 27, Dr. Zhang Jixian, head of the respiratory department at Hubei Provincial Hospital, reported to health officials in China that a novel coronavirus was causing the disease; by that day, it had infected more than 180 individuals."

The stories of Dr. Zhang and Li Wenliang are told here. By Chinese New Year (January 25) the country was in lockdown. Compare that reaction to the United States, where Trump certainly knew by Chinese New Year about the disease potential. Nothing was done until March, except for Trump publicly minimizing.

The obsession with China (and the suggestion that they didn't react for "months" is irrational and mistaken.

As for your article, I begin with the fact that we bought a couple thousand non-functional ventilators, and then ask, how does that happen? My firm's practice brings us into close contact with a variety of medical providers--all of whom buy their stuff from known, reliable vendors who stand behind their products (they have to, to stay in business). So, I'm wondering how that vendor was selected

I don't know the answer to that question. Nor even what, specifically, is wrong with the non-functional ones. But I ran across this:
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2020/04/02/can-you-fix-ventilators-a-silicon-valley-fuel-cell-engineer-figures-it-out/

So we're fixing them. Sometimes those geeky engineers are what you need.

It is the flip side of the coin with the right's fixation with Obama or Clinton.

There is certainly a partisan aspect to criticisms of Trump. To the degree that people criticize him because he happens to be the POTUS from "the other side", you have a point.

And that's as far as that point goes.

Trump is a shitty president. Not because he's a (R), or because people don't like his policies. He's just a crap executive. He lacks the temperament and skill set to be good at the job.

And it's a really important job, so people find it disturbing.

You can try to trivialize it as "Trump Derangement Syndrome" or whatever the term of art is these days, but it really is harmful to the nation to have him in office. And there's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

He is making a bollocks of the job, and he is undermining the standing and influence of this country in the world. He is a daily embarrassment to us all.
And hell yeah, people who otherwise would not get sick, and otherwise would not die, will get sick, and will die.

Trump and lots of other folks were briefed about the dangers of COVID-19 months ago. Some did bugger-all, and others took the opportunity to enrich themselves by trading on the information they received (more candidates for the "Which Circle?" game). Trump was briefed on disaster preparedness during the transition from Obama's administration. Trump's actions in that area have been to undermine and cripple the federal institutions responsible for responding to emergencies. Trump's own NSC prepared a disaster response playbook. He has ignored it.

None of that is "non-falsifiable", which appears to be the buzzword du jour. It's all plain fact. All of what I've just laid out is plain fact, known and documented in the public record.

He is fucking incompetent. And he's a dick about it, every day, public and volubly.

And FWIW, I don't hate Trump. I have no respect for him, mostly because he himself respects nothing, and it makes me angry that he is POTUS. Those are different things.

He is worse than useless, he's harmful. We'll all just work around it as best we can.

Wash your hands, stay inside, help your neighbors. Stay safe and well, everyone.

wj, I did not say that German prejudices are necessarily based on facts.
FIAT cars (for commoners) were top of the unreliable list for many years around here though (based on actual repair statistics).
And 'not reading the manual' is about use of products not the products themselves.

And, as I recall, Mercedes in Germany was long (and maybe still?) regarded as basically a solid, if unexciting, maker of trucks and cars. Even as, in the US, they were seen as top of the line luxury vehicles. No accounting for perceptions.

wrs @ 11.42. FFS, not a word of it can be argued with, if one is arguing in good faith.

i always think of Mercedes as something like GM (or Toyota) - they make a million different vehicles, one for every niche and purpose there is. some are simply functional and some are luxurious and some are sporty. the big difference between the two makers is that GM markets uses different brand names for the different niches, while Mercedes just sticks with the one name.

Marty: Tony, If he was President I wouldnt vote for him.

How decisive of you, Marty! Also, a masterly attempt to miss the point.

McTX,

If you prefer a con to a "prog" in charge of the administrative branch of the federal government, that's your prob.

--TP

It is the flip side of the coin with the right's fixation with Obama or Clinton.

No, it isn't.

Mercedes limousines were known over here as 'the cars with inbuilt right of way' (eingebaute Vorfahrt) because they were both extremly robust in crashes* (for the time) and driven by people that thought of themselves as something better (i.e. rich snobs). BMW entering the market for luxury cars and new standards for car safety put a bit of a damper on that moniker.

*and fatal for the other guy in a non-Mercedes

'the cars with inbuilt right of way'

Long ago, I owned a Checker Marathon - the traditional NYC taxi, up until 20 or 30 years ago. Mine was green, not yellow, and was a wagon rather than the more common sedan. Otherwise identical to the good old NYC taxi of yore.

Now that, my friends, was an automobile with 'inbuilt right of way'!!

:)

The fixation with DT to the exclusion of all else is problematic. It is the flip side of the coin with the right's fixation with Obama or Clinton.

Well, in my opinion, the second sentence is only (even vaguely or remotely) justifiable in the context of the preceding sentence. Otherwise, I'm completely with Janie: the second sentence on its own would be an absurdity.

The golf carts rented with my fucking stolen tax dollars seem to be fully functional:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/2/1933620/-Pandemic-be-damned-Secret-Service-just-signed-a-new-golf-cart-rental-contract-with-Trump-s-VA-club

I guess they weren't manufactured by that government agency, Morton Thiokol, or maybe Lockheed, who get one mulligan after another, ad nauseum.

I'd like to know how funding NPR, which works fine by me, can cause Lockheed's F-35 to stall in cold weather?

Classical music clogging up the cockpit instrumentation somehow. Terri Gross asking too many questions, assholes?

Radio interference?

What rank dog shit crawling with bacteria is being peddled here.

A couple of folks here should join Stuart Varney or Sean Hannity on FOX and provide your totally unbiased, unhypocritical opinions to their captives.

Heck, Murdoch will pay you to vomit, whereas OBWI has to clean it up without charge here and then ask for more.

Conservatives and fucking Libertarians:

"Government steals my money to be incompetent, inefficient, malign, and expensive.

Conservatives and fucking Libertarians:

"OK, then, let's make it do the most important things, and leave the trivial shit to the private sector.

https://www.eater.com/2020/3/23/21191632/fda-routine-food-surveillance-inspections-suspended-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic

Beyond Meat, indeed, c*cksuckers.

We'll never get food inspection back.

The Coronavirus is a Godsend to Republican Christian Predatory Americans, enabling the force majeure enactment of every policy dear to their black, murderous hearts, and the appointments of lifetime sinecured vermin judges to keep it that way by Government Force.

A agree with Mike Huckabee. Every American should be forced to purchase and own weapons and ammo.

We'll need one less bullet for our self defense:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/28/politics/tom-coburn-oklahoma-senator-dead/index.html

I could have taken him out with the edge of a can of pinto beans at 20 paces.

I return to our Donald land of lurking and banking the fires of unmitigated hate for what Trump has done to my country.

Maybe Hillary had the Coronavirus that fateful Fall campaign season 2016? Weren't we told here by one of the usual suspects that she was lyimng about her condition and was terminal, if memory serves.

I return to our Donald land of lurking and banking the fires of unmitigated white-hot hate for what Trump and the Republican Party and Joe Manchin types has done to my country.

lj: I wonder if some of those "excess" deaths are inability to access health care for another condition because of the overwhelm COVID-19 is causing, rather than "hidden" COVID-19 deaths. Does that make sense? Logically, it could go either way based simply on "average" numbers. I think we are going to see and have already seen increased mortality for treatable conditions in hard-hit areas.

And as far as distrusting the Chinese goes, lj, what is your take on the January 14th WHO tweet of no human-to-human transmission, Li Wenliang, etc.? Does distrusting the CCP have to be xenophobic (as is implied)?

To be sure, I'm not condoning any under reporting and not challenging that it may be happening in Spain or Italy. I don't think I've read, though, of medical personnel being persecuted in those countries for telling what they think is the truth.

Does distrusting the CCP have to be xenophobic (as is implied)?

I was wondering the same thing. Is it racist to distrust North Korea's government (even if you trust South Korea's)?

I think we are going to see and have already seen increased mortality for treatable conditions in hard-hit areas.

Well, I have already seen a lupus sufferer lamenting online that her healthcare provider has stopped her Hydroxychloroquine (which is the only thing that keeps her condition in check) because of unavailability of the drug. I wonder why?

No, it's not necessarily xenophobic.

Unless you ARE racist.

So, the fact that we have this problem due to PRC criminality blows right by everyone because DT is so awful.

always blame-shifting. always trying to find a way to pin something on the left.

nobody here has any say over what the PRC does.

I wonder why?

Are you being sarcastic? Because if the question is sincere, see here. Of course, that's not the same as saying her provider stopped it.

In case there's any doubt, I don't trust the numbers coming from China. I don't in any way think China's actions are an excuse for the Rump administration's failures on the coronavirus response.

Who here has said they "trust" the PRC government? Who has applauded the persecution of people there who have tried to tell the truth in the PRC? (By the way, it was the Wuhan government, not the central PRC government, that persecuted Dr. Li. Obviously, that doesn't excuse the PRC government for its routinely oppressive measures to contain free expression, but since so many seem to be an expert on how "criminal" "China" is, maybe the details matter.)

This is the thing: China didn't act fast enough, but it acted pretty darn fast and with a lot of energy in trying to contain the virus. No one has to "trust" the PRC government to know that they closed down travel for Chinese New Year, which was a massive and consequential societal shutdown, and which happened in January, merely one month after the communicable disease potential was first confirmed. People were required to stay in their homes for months. Wuhan was on lockdown. It is believed by people living there that those actions did contain the spread of the virus. They are now, again, closing bars and restaurants and increasing restrictions because there has been a resurgence.

As to the numbers of dead, do we "trust" the Chinese to give us correct information? I don't. I don't "trust" the Trump administration either. Even people working in good faith are hard to "trust" when people aren't tested, some are dying at home, etc.

our block is burning down and we're supposed to start yelling at the dysfunctional family in the house where it started, instead of yelling at dad to turn off Fox News and get his ass in gear.

Does distrusting the CCP have to be xenophobic (as is implied)?

The focus on blaming China, on calling the virus the "Chinese" virus or the "Wuhan" virus has exacerbated anti-Asian racism. What's your point in focussing on China? It originated there in a dense city of over 10 million people. China has tried to stop its spread, and they acted more quickly than we did. What else you got?

The securities and business accounting regulatory standards in China remain lax, because their corrupt conservative government disallows stricter gummint oversight and enforcement, a situation held as aspirational by corrupt American conservatives such as Kudlow for our country:

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/luckin-coffee-coo-under-investigation-155407770.html

And as far as distrusting the Chinese goes, lj, what is your take on the January 14th WHO tweet of no human-to-human transmission, Li Wenliang, etc.?

On Jan 30 the WHO declared the virus to be a public health emergency of international concern.

Does distrusting the CCP have to be xenophobic (as is implied)?

No

On Jan 30, CHina reported 2,000 new cases (hitting a total of almost 10,000). and that same day, Trump said this, at a rally:

Now we’re working very strongly with China on the coronavirus — that’s a new thing that a lot of people are talking about. Hopefully it won’t be as bad as some people think it could be. But we’re working very closely with them and with a lot of other people and a lot of other countries. And we think we have it very well under control.

We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five. And those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for it. So that I can assure you.

yes, let's complain about China.

Also, how does Texas and its post-Covid-19 international travel grab people?

Texas. Criminal.

On the other (more hopeful) hand, the governor of Georgia has (finally!) discovered asymptomatic transmission is possible. Who knew? (Besides anyone who was paying attention to news not broadcast by Fox.)

Reality creeping in, even in the more unlikely places.

what else you got?

yes, let's complain about China

Not my point, but serves me right to not notice that there is a second page of comments. I was responding to lj's comment on page 1. My point was simply that distrusting the numbers from China is not per se xenophobic. There are good reasons to not trust China. Just as there are good reasons to not trust what Trump says.

Trust russell to nonetheless see through the intervening back and forth and have a clear-minded response. Thanks.

Sapient and cleek, I do take issue with the initial Chinese response from what is out there to read right now. More could have been done and, I hope, would have been done in a more transparent society. But one can simultaneously criticize the Chinese and the West! Our own CDC and FDA need some serious help and I'm not convinced it has anything to do with Trump.

That some nutters get wound up by calling it the "Wuhan Virus" is not a reason to say that the name itself is racist. Why not, then, German Measles, Ebola, Spanish Flu, etc.? I did get a kick out of the media using allegedly racist names for the virus one week then turning around and blasting everyone the next.

According to Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick (the fake news reported at OBWI a day ago that this guy is the least-well known Texas political personality is faker than fake), those young Covidiots on their murderous bacterial jaunt are the future of the country, because their parents and grandparents, minus Patrick himself, of course, will agree to die of the disease to save the stock market.

David Barton sure knows who he is. Yeah, that f*ck is still around.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/07/10/americas-future-is-texas

To add to my disgust at the cessation of nationwide food inspection, it was reported yesterday on NPR (which singlehandly prevented NASA from landing on the Moon because it made Neil Armstrong incompetent) in Colorado that a young woman is quarantined in Greeley Colorado because a family member, her father, has the Covid-19. She is, as is her father, a meatpacking/slaughterhouse employee and she said on the radio that the plant has NO fucking soap in the bathrooms so the employees cannot even wash their hands at work, and furthermore, the plant management, which refused comment, has notified all employees that they will be fired if they stay away from work for more than seven days, with or without the virus.

It's about a 70-minute drive from Denver and there are plenty of ammo stores on the way to load up for justice.

I'll have to check my schedule to see if there is time today for some free-style bounty hunting, since government seems as dead as Genghis Khan.

Tastes like chicken to me.

I'd cook that meat to very well done nearing burned to a crisp, you neo-meateating conservatives.

Grade A stands for Assholes.

And with that, see ya next time.

The Spanish Flu, according to the most accepted theory, originated at an Army Base in Kansas, whose soldiers than carried the bacillus to the battlefields of World War I.

America never gets the credit we deserve, even when we win.

China is mentioned as the source as well.

I expect that theory to pick up steam now, given the racist xenophobes at FOX News and in the White House.

then

Thullen: and a point apropos for today, not only do they think it originated in Kansas, but the only reason they thought it originated in Spain was due to the open press accounts coming out of Spain.

May I call you "c"?

This map looks familiar:

https://digbysblog.net/2020/04/foolish-fellow-americans/

Course, conservatives will say the map proves that social distancing and remaining quarantined for lengths of time is what spreads the virus.

Them masks are selling like F-35s abroad:

https://juanitajean.com/what-the-hell-4/

The Spanish Flu, according to the most accepted theory, originated at an Army Base in Kansas, whose soldiers than carried the bacillus to the battlefields of World War I

The pathogen is a virus.

that map makes perfect sense for NC, which didn't go into "no non-essential travel" statewide until the 30th. the little blob in the middle - that's Wake, Orange and Durham counties (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill), all of which shut down at least a week before.

the map proves that social distancing and remaining quarantined for lengths of time is what spreads the virus.

As opposed to, say, actually doing testing....

I'm aware.

"Bacillus: sounds more Evil to fit the times.

Actually, Make America Great Britain (again) sent imported, from somewhere in Europe I believe, testing kits back because they were contaminated with ... the.. Covid-19.

It's like trying to get rid of flypaper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iEwNC2Qv-E

What action should I take if they steal the next Presidential election too.

Let's make it a poll question.

You get one choice ... of my choosing, kind of like Lou Dobbs' polls of Trump's job performance: #1: Excellent, #2: Marvelous, #3: #1

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-georgia-house-speaker-turnout

Who here has said they "trust" the PRC government?

McKinney accused us libs of being too easy on China (seemingly implying leftist sympathies of some sort - because communism?), while we were being super mean to our president (because we don't like Republicans).

There are a number of conversations going on and people writing in reaction to others rather than trying to make a particular thing a matter of emphasis because they have an axe to grind.

bc,

I wonder if some of those "excess" deaths are inability to access health care for another condition because of the overwhelm COVID-19 is causing, rather than "hidden" COVID-19 deaths.

That seems plausible to me. There will be lots of deaths from that, and they are attributable to COVID-19 logically, if not medically.

I'm not defending Trump, I'm pointing out that the constant "fact checking" of his statements is unproductive.

I don't think it's unproductive. I think it's very useful to explain to people what a lying POS he is.

Indeed, if everyone had assumed from the beginning that nothing Trump said about the coronavirus was true we would be a lot better off today.

Sorry Bernie, but almost no one in a position of authority believed him. So you're just wrong.

I wonder why?

Are you being sarcastic?

Of course I was being sarcastic! And here am I, so far actively resisting a sarcasm font!

almost no one in a position of authority believed him

the President is arguably the ultimate "position of authority" in the US, and Fox News is his mouthpiece. that's why, again:

In a new survey from the Pew Research Center, 79 percent of Fox viewers say the media is exaggerating the risks of the coronavirus pandemic. And there’s more: 39 percent believe the virus was developed in a lab—presumably a Chinese bioweapons lab.

any chance you heard Trump say anything about any of that?

Sorry Bernie, but almost no one in a position of authority believed him.

What does a "position of authority" mean in this sentence? No scientists (epidemiologists, statisticians etc) or medical experts believed him. But what authority did they have, and what could they do except try to tell the truth (against a blizzard of bullshit from Fox, the White House, all the enabling arseholes on the right)? The people with authority to act, whether they believed him or not, are rather overwhelmingly all in for him, so they did bugger all until it was too fucking late (for a best-case scenario, that is). And he's still lying, and lo and behold, close on half the American public (who have no authority except they can vote in November), believe his lies (rising approval ratings) because they have no ability to think or evaluate rationally.

Sorry for outburst. But it's all true.

Well, even I think that the media is creating panic wherever it can. But that's their job right? Get eyeballs. Is that exaggerating the risk? *shrug*

I think Trump deserves what he gets from the media, but in every other way they get worse every day.

almost no one in a position of authority believed him. So you're just wrong.

Perhaps not. But an awful lots of Republican governors and members of Congress acted** and talked like they believed him.

** Admittedly, some of them took private actions, e.g. made stock sales, showing that they didn't believe him. As opposed to their public demonstrations of absolute faith in the word-of-the-moment.

GftNC, when did people believe what? He downplayed the risk and the medical profession and the media exploded here with criticism.

I'm not sure what country the people here live in. The first outbreak here was in a nursing home in Washington State on Jan 19. There's almost no more remote spot from much of the country. California took note, but that was due to proximity. The stay home order in Washington State was issued March 23.

New York, March 24. Long after the President had moved off his original position. The delays, everywhere, were based on the people in charge having to internalize the gravity of the threat.

The media focus on the Presidents evolving understanding is not productive. Go ask Cuomo, who somehow is now Presidential material, why he waited until a week ago to do that.

This Trump did wrong. He was transparent on what he thought based on all his current advice. Then he was Trump and wouldnt just say he was wrong. Which is what I consider as part of his disqualifying temperament.

Millions of people disagree with me.

and the media exploded here with criticism.

Fox certainly didn't.

and, again, Fox viewers think it's a hoax.

He was transparent on what he thought based on all his current advice.

OMFG. hook. line. sinker.

he stood in front of the cameras contradicting his experts, day after day. he's still doing it.

he's taking advice from Hannity and Epstien and Jared. he's spouting propaganda, still.

and he's getting people killed.

and you're apologizing for him.

as always.

DIAF, italics.

No one thinks it's a hoax, and he never said it was. I know lots of Trump supporters and yes, they came around slow.

They are more likely to believe it's a Chinese plot to destroy the world. But close to every adult is sure this is a crisis, although I know some pretty liberal folks that dont think stay at home meand thrm.

"He was transparent on what he thought based on all his current advice."

I stood on the median strip of the busy city street outside my building in my boxer shorts yesterday coughing like a Nepalese tubercular.

Everyone told me not to do it.

So give me a fucking Medal of Freedom!

Like Limbaugh, who is social distancing from EVERYONE while telling his listeners to suck his cock, and send money, if they can make it past the armed guards when he's receiving his cancer treatments with his fully compromised immune system, leaving aside the fact that he is faking his illness so trump would give him a medal and shame and disgrace every previous medal winner, including all Purple Hearts, Paul McCartney's Knighthood and my senior year gold medal in the fucking 100-yard dash in the Western PA track finals.

OK .. Silver.

Marty, take it from someone who doesn't know how to shut up, and I don't mean Dave C.. and SHAD UP!

You are in a crowded theater. Yell the right fucking words, or shut up and watch the fucking movie with the rest of us with the proper amount of horror.

"Millions of people disagree with me."

Yet another low estimate.

Marty,

What would people like DeSantis, Kemp, Ivey, and presumably others have done if Trump had taken warnings he got early seriously?

What if he had said to himself, "You know, I'm not sure about this, but maybe we ought to order up a whole shitload of masks - the N95's cost $3.50 in not huge quantities - and get some people making ventilators." I mean, if it's not as bad as these guys think, you have them in storage.

A few billion in prevention would have saved a lot of lives and jobs and businesses.

Dr Anthony Fauci, who is sabre-fighting a killer virus with one hand, and caressing the distended balls of Caligula with the other, is as of today the only citizen who has his own Bobblehead Doll AND his own heavily-armed security detail to keep NRA-Republican-armed conservative murderers from killing him because he urges them to stop spreading the Coronavirus by fucking their mothers and their children and their friends up their asses in the name of the Constitution!

The delays, everywhere, were based on the people in charge having to internalize the gravity of the threat.

It didn't help that the WHO, seemingly fronting for the CCP, initally downplayed the threat.

Bernie, that presumes mask and ventilator shortages were highlighted and we realized the quantity in out reserves was inadequate.Theres a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking based on discussions none of us were in.

See, I suspect that the worst case was presented with a lot of caveats so it just didnt get internalized. Based on what he has said. From "there may be a virus outbreak" to "there arent enough ventilators in existence to cope with it" isnt a given leap.

the constant "fact checking" of his statements is unproductive.

I don't think it's unproductive. I think it's very useful to explain to people what a lying POS he is.

but almost no one in a position of authority believed him. So you're just wrong.

This guy. Not in authority, nonetheless dead.

He was transparent on what he thought based on all his current advice.

Yes, I agree.

And he was getting advice from, among other similar people, his son in law. Who got his advice from his super-model sister-in-law's dad. Who got his advice from a Facebook poll of his MD buddies.

His 'current advice' was shite. Because he's a fucking idiot who sadly thinks he is a genius. So he doesn't recognize the fact that there are people in the world who actually know stuff he doesn't know.

He is a fucking amateur. He is a loser. He is a freaking wanna-be. He is not a good businessman, he is a guy who made his money cheating on taxes, stiffing his debtors, selling overpriced luxury real estate to money-laundering kleptos, and pimping his name to brand crap fraudulent products sold to people for whom vulgar luxury is an aspirational ideal. He has no damned business in the office he holds.

He was elected because everybody was tired of the "politicians", which is to say the people who actually have experience in governance and in public life. Trump's experience in "public life" is basically as a geezer Kardashian.

Trump is the political version of the rich asshole who goes to a museum, looks at the paintings, and says "What is this shit? My kid could paint better than that!".

The federal government is turning to shit, because the chief executive is an incompetent nincompoop.

He is, in fact, doing his best. He is making the most of the information he has at the time, which comes from Jared and Fox News and god knows whatever fountain of expertise and wisdom.

Garbage in, garbage out.

We need to find ways to work around him. Ideally, responsible media channels would stop broadcasting his damned briefings in real time, and would provide a vetted synopsis of his remarks, with the rambling idiocies edited out. Ideally, he would actually STFU altogether and let people like Fauci drive the policy, because Fauci actually knows his freaking onions.

The federal response to the pandemic is a clusterfuck. Many of the state responses, also, but not all of them. My personal opinion is that folks will get a better result by relying on their state and local resources at this point, because the feds can't find their @sses with both hands and a flashlight.

This is what incompetent crap government looks like. This is what his supporters voted for, and so this is what we have.

We'll get through it, one way or another. We'll get through it that much better, the less Trump is involved in the planning and execution of the response.

If you were on the board of some company, and Trump was the CEO, you'd hand him his hat and show him the door. I have no idea what you get out of getting his back here, but the man is a dumbass. An incompetent addle-brained cowardly dumbass. And a nasty piece of work, on top of it all.

I have no idea what you get out of getting his back here,

It's a real mystery, but my guess is, an addicting feeling of superiority to us dumb fuck liberals.

Anyhow, let's all chant together: Don't bite hooks.

And when certain other people come here and say "jump" (i.e. justify yourself for not spending your days condemning my hobgoblin fantasies), consider not saying "how high?"

Or better yet, Whatever you say, say nothin'...

I guess I have a different idea of fun from some people.

It doesn't help either that Libertarians haven't yet gathered together, maybe have a little chinwag among themselves, and decide what the fuck Libertarian suppositions they agree on before foisting your bullshit on the rest of us.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/03/social-distancing-culture/609019/

Maybe a joint declaration of some kind. To clarify what the fuck you are talking about.

No doubt you'll chair the meeting, the circle jerk, Charles and let us know what you come up with.

You guys use Roberts Rules of Order or is that too many rules for ya?

Marty:

"There's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking based on discussions none of us were in."

You Marty, were the Bart Starr, the Johnny Unitas, and the John Elway of all day Monday and every day of the week quarterbacking regarding Obamacare around here, and all things fucking Hillary and Obama.

You lost yardage then and now that you are in the booth, you and Terry Bradshaw provide plenty of off-color play by play of a game no one is playing.

What I said.

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