Politics and insanity thread

by liberal japonicus

A thread for your political thoughts, as a futile attempt to protect the non-political ones. Have at it.

Comments

[ral]

Ah, now we're talking (title).

[wj]

Fox News seems to have changed directions on the whole covid-19 situation. But is it enough, soon enough?

My sense is that, by spending a couple months pooh-poohing the whole thing, the whole right wing media complex has successfully convinced their audience that it's nothing. And changing all those minds, especially to accepting what the normal media has been saying all along, isn't going to be easy.

What that means politically is this. The right was already looking at future decline due to basic demographics. But now, they have been encouraging their audience -- who, be it remembered, are a population disproportionately at risk -- to do things that can get them killed. Which only speeds up that demographic problem.

Add that to a situation which is making it impossible to ignore how incompetent and dishonest Trump has been. And we may end November trying to find a new term for something beyond a mere wave election.

[John D Thullen]

"pooh-poohing"?

C'mon, wj, cut loose! Put some feeling into it!

Was it pooh-poohing when Tokyo Rose' voice would sweetly call out to dug-in US troops over the ravaged battlefields of Okinawa and Guadalcanal about Yankee's games and whether or not their girlfriends and wives were shagging other men or worse, each other, back in Small-Town USA, that their boyhood loyal Fidos had died of loneliness?

Excuse me, but FOX News and the entire right wing piece of shit goddamned anti-human movement is purposefully and malignantly lying and may well have contributed to the spread of the disease and killed people.

Speak English. It's the national language, so the conservative vermin tell us.

They are sinister. They are Evil. They are your enemy.

pooh pooh that.

[liberal japonicus]

I wonder if it will be possible to make sure that what Fox has done is kept alive in people's memory. I imagine President Biden, every time a Fox correspondent asking a question, prefacing it with the observation 'The correspondent from Fox, where they initially presented corona as a hoax dreamed up by the left. Your question?'

That's assuming we never get the stones to take the whole network of the air and sell the stations to pay for medicare for all.

[russell]

A thread for your political thoughts

What a fugly mess.

That about covers it, I think.

[liberal japonicus]

He can be taught!

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/16/21182247/trump-coronavirus-covid-19-press-conference

[sapient]

Putin wins.

Obviously nothing to see here. Barr drops case against Mueller-indicted Russian firm, and Trump judge says, fine!

If we somehow eke out a win in the November "election", maybe we can start to save our country. But it's going to be a long and difficult haul, and we'd better start realizing that it's not just Trump, but his little Russian helpers.

[John D Thullen]

This guy is emblazoned on my memory like the one-armed man who murdered Richard Kimball's wife:

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/03/newt-gingrich-is-still-the-worst-person-in-the-world/

Maybe some hope:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coronavirus-dispatch-from-hong-kong-were-already-through-this-heres-how-we-did-it-and-what-life-looks-like-on-the-other-side-2020-03-16?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

[John D Thullen]

All of them will be executed:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a31677485/coronavirus-trump-administration-rejected-who-test/

They are not Americans. They are not human.

[John D Thullen]

https://news.trust.org/item/20200313151928-n3bce

If I try to cross the border into Mexico, they should shoot me dead, simple for being a diseased, rapist American wetback.

[Michael Cain]

Sometime in the next couple of years, there will be the beginning of a drawn-out discussion over how many people we are willing to let die to avoid crashing the economy.

[wj]

every time a Fox correspondent asking a question, prefacing it with the observation 'The correspondent from Fox, where they initially presented corona as a hoax dreamed up by the left

The problem with taking that approach to Fox is that the actual Fox reporters seem to be decent newsfolks. It's the commentators, masquerading as news people, who are the problem. So while I applaud the intent, I'm not sure this is the best path to the goal.

[wj]

If we somehow eke out a win in the November "election", maybe we can start to save our country.

The bad news is, Federal judges serve for life. And they have appointed some massively unqualified disasters. The good news is, even Federal judges can be impeached and removed for cause.** So the worst can be winnowed out. And should be.

** To my mind, the Bar Association also has some responsibility for weeding out those who are totally incompetent. But that's outside what I, as a non-lawyer, have any say in.

[Dave W.]

Problem is, to get impeachment and removal in the current political climate is a massively high bar. Just disagreeing with the judge's decisions isn't going to do it (and arguably shouldn't - that, after all, is the main point of lifetime tenure). Having zero courtroom experience is an argument against confirmation, not for impeachment, and by the time impeachment could be at all relevant, would no longer be true (biased though that experience might be).

You can probably remove a judge who is outright selling verdicts for bribes. That's probably around the level you need to get to. Of course, this Senate didn't think selling military aid for political assistance was enough to convict, so I'm not even sure about the bribery thing these days.

[wj]

You can probably remove a judge who is outright selling verdicts for bribes. That's probably around the level you need to get to

I'd agree that disagreeing with decisions is not, in general, grounds for removal. On the other hand (and unfortunately this is not beyond the realm of possibility) making decisions which are reversed for errors that any second yer law student should know better than? That's another story. (And it may be worth noting that most of the cases of impeachment and removal, historically, have been of judges.)

Whether the process will play out is impossible to tell right now. On one hand, politics is extremely polarized right now, to the exclusion of concern for actual facts. On the other hand, the current excitements may leave the country as a whole in somewhat the same position as we have experienced here in California for the last couple decades: there is a Republican Party, but it is sufficiently unpopular that it holds no statewide offices and has something like a quarter of the legislative seats. In short, it is an irrelevance when decisions are made.

I think our politics needs two viable parties. But we seem determinedly heading for a situation where that isn't what we have. And at least it will let us clean up some of the mess that Trump and (more) McConnell have made of the judiciary.

[John D Thullen]

This is in response to sapient's remark that "FOX News has done an about face" on the no politics "Theme, with Variations" thread.*

It's not an about face, it's a strategic flanking move in Murdoch's Republican Party malignant self interest, to continue with the martial image.

They should be gunned down mercilessly like a fucking gauleiter emerging from the ruins of Dresden with one hand up in mock surrender and a Mauser pistol concealed in the other behind his back.

Yes, and Claus Von Stauffenberg and co-conspirators cooled their Nazi heels until 1944 to assassinate Hitler and decapitate the Nazi Party, unsuccessfully. After, what, a dozen years of following orders? Fuck them.

And Albert Speer expressed remorse at Nuremberg while eliding any recognition of the murder of the Jews and other victims. Bullshit!

No, about face not accepted.

FOX News needs to be shut down and the business liquidated completely. As do the other right wing hate machines.

And, no, the rank and file news people are not stand up folks. What kind of overgroomed, mini-skirted, teeth-bleached fuck wad, even with a so-called journalism degree applies for a job with FOX News without knowing at this late date what their "bias" is, that dumbass word thought up by conservatives.

They are at the very least threats to the national security of the United States of America and all of their employees are complicit in the crimes of contributing to killing and sickening Americans (some of whom are willingly complicit in their fates) during this national emergency, with special mention to the leading "personalities" infesting that nest of vipers.

This would be a fitting end to all of the swine, especially Limbaugh with his fake lung cancer.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bre-payton-conservative-writer-and-television-guest-dies-at-26-after-sudden-illness

Incidentally, while Limbaugh is telling his ignorant sycophants this thing is no big deal and a hoax, what to do you suppose his doctors are telling him about exposure to anything that would compromise his immune system.

Hanh?

But we would be further endangering ourselves.

So executions are the only practical alternative, as with the Rosenbergs, except that there is no doubt of FOX News' guilt.

What about the First Amendment, most will ask?

What about it?

Loose lip sink ships and their yacht is going to the bottom with all on board.

The dredging operation will reveal all of then were dead before they went down.

Fuck everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Fuck both sides do it. FOX News and republican conservatives do it. The rest of us go through the motions trying to keep up.

Fuck deep state.

In fact, there needs to be a deeper state cleansing this country of its enemies.

I'd say put that in your (for any value of "your") hats and smoke it, but smoking may make you more susceptible to the ravages of Covid-19, and since I give a shit, I don't want that to happen to any of you.

Barkeep? Towel!

Do I have to be the only right wing law and order patriot around here?

*As with any virus, politics is a difficult thing to quarantine.

[Marty]

"it is sufficiently unpopular that it holds no statewide offices and has something like a quarter of the legislative seats. In short, it is an irrelevance when decisions are made."

It has a quarter of the legislative seats due to permanent gerrymandered districts. Republicans know they have no say, much like MA. So you could develop a Republican party like MA, but that wouldnt really be two parties.

[John D Thullen]

So, what would happen if we overthrew the entire republican political "leadership" of this country and made this guy President:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tom-hanks-son-shares-good-news-about-his-dad-he-also-has-a-pointed-message-for-toilet-paper-hoarders-2020-03-17?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

Other than the tattoo mandate, it couldn't be any worse, would it?

Hanks and his wife seem to be recovering.

Let's move to Australia.

Their conservatives merely burn the country down.

[John D Thullen]

Or, move to China. At least you might get the care you need, instead of the efficient, cost effective and outrageously expensive, just in time but too late bullshit we do here, like we're selling shoes instead of keeping people well, because every damned thing is a commodity equal to every other commodity.

A CT scan? Here, sorry, those are on back order because we must keep inventories low and margins high like Ferrari does.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/coronavirus-germs-of-august-liberalism-august-1914-moment/

More:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-long-duration-18-months-coronavirus/

Want more? Probably not:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/bliss-of-before-tumult-of-after-college-republican-coronavirus/

Ok. I've used up my allotment of oxygen for the week.

[John D Thullen]

One last gasp, to quote Boris Trump Johnson, the cholera and plague wag. That guy Miltonfriederdofenlooper again:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/trump-defended-cuts-public-health-agencies/608158/

FOX News and the Republican Party leading pigfucker America:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLpCkGFff5I

FOX News and Limbaugh viewers gather to welcome our friend, the common cold. Time's up:t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjFG-4Ge668

Have a larf before the killing starts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwE-WIdIzz8

Sock now inserted in mo ... umpf.

[sapient]

Sometime in the next couple of years, there will be the beginning of a drawn-out discussion over how many people we are willing to let die to avoid crashing the economy.

This discussion is already happening.

Unlike Loomis, I think the discussion is (cautiously) worth having, but as one commenter there stated: "An expected number of deaths around 1 million if we do nothing multiplied by $9 million equals $9 trillion or roughly 40% of the US economy for a year."

So the estimates of a 5% contraction for 2 quarters seems to be a bargain." The figure of $9 million comes from the article.

Whether or not the data actually would prove this, I don't know. But the cost of overwhelmed hospitals, extra deaths, extra disabilities: those things have to be factored in.

Shutting down the country will definitely take a toll on people, and Loomis is wrong (IMO) to dismiss that. I still think that doing so is right compared to the alternative.

[Hartmut]

Ah, I see: the main problem is that the Dems will take over and then abuse the emergency powers Jabbabonk will have reluctantly claimed to deal with the crisis. Therefore it is important to replace all aging conservative judges before November* with (ideally) reliable toddlers with Falwellian law degrees.
May I humbly suggest that we also (just as a precaution) remove all lampposts and thus any involontary elevation accompanied by (once) popular French songs. The darkness will also ease the necessary sneak-out when the mob with the agricultural implements and the wood, pitch and resin based improvised light sources arrives.

*who am I kidding? The last judges will get confirmed seconds before POTUS novus fucoso-laevus opens his mouth to speak the oath of office.

[wj]

It has a quarter of the legislative seats due to permanent gerrymandered districts. Republicans know they have no say, much like MA.

Actually, no. We took the politicians out of drawing district lines well over a decade ago. The districts get drawn by a non-partisan commission, and the lines generally are drawn (outside cities) to follow things like ridgelines which seperate communities. Republicans are irrelevant because they are only the third largest political group -- after Democrats and NoPartyPreference. (24% vs 43% and 27% respectively.)

[bobbyp]

Shutting down the country will definitely take a toll on people, and Loomis is wrong (IMO) to dismiss that.

I didn't get that take. He did not "dismiss" whatever it is you think he has. Please read the squib again. He is pretty clear that he feels those who argue that the price we may have to ultimately pay to effectively battle this problem is not worth the cost is simply "sociopathic", and therefore is an "argument" not worth having. I would assume you would agree?

[John D Thullen]

The all-seeing, all-knowing, all-efficient, all -discounting price discovering markets:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-stock-has-scored-the-biggest-boost-from-the-coronavirus-outbreak-but-the-company-has-been-out-of-business-for-years-2020-02-27?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

https://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=ZOOM&insttype=Stock

[John D Thullen]

It was Kudlow's top stock pick.

[bobbyp]

It was Kudlow's top stock pick.

What? Cramer missed that one? I am crestfallen.

[bobbyp]

These motherf*ckers are trying to dictate who will get to be in the lifeboats. I note they have taken first dibs.

Assholes.

[cleek]

"The Committee to Unleash Prosperity" !

as far as pure wingnut hackery goes, the name alone is almost unbeatable. could anything that follows measure up?

"STEVE FORBES, ART LAFFER, STEPHEN MOORE"

ahh. perfecto!

[sapient]

Please read the squib again. He is pretty clear that he feels those who argue that the price we may have to ultimately pay to effectively battle this problem is not worth the cost is simply "sociopathic", and therefore is an "argument" not worth having. I would assume you would agree?

I read his take on the article, which was a mischaracterization of the article (as sociopathic), because I also read the article itself. The article wasn't about lives versus money. It was the social cost (including human hardship, lives, etc.) of measures that we take to save lives from the virus.

My comment here already states my belief that our short-term sacrifice seems worth it. The more effective the sacrifice will be, the more worth it (and because we have started so late, it's hard to know how effective it will be).

It's not sociopathic, in my opinion, to quantify social cost. For example, there is currently a huge spike in gun sales. Is this a result of fear of the virus, or the reaction to it? Who knows. It's a difficult thing to quantify, but that's what economists try to do with data. It's not sociopathic to try to find out what the costs are of the pandemic and the policies reacting to it.

Sorting these things out is difficult and takes a long time. But the attempt to do so is not sociopathic.

[sapient]

It's not sociopathic to try to find out what the costs are of the pandemic and the policies reacting to it.

Also, the economists I know are mostly on the left of the political spectrum. Much of their work involves assessing the effectiveness of social policies, not to destroy government assistance, but to make government programs and funding more effective.

Economists themselves are constantly reassessing how well they evaluate data, and refine techniques and assumptions. The comments to Loomis's post vilify economics as a discipline, as if people who try to analyze the effectiveness of expensive government policies are ghoulish for doing so. That's insane and Trumpishly wrong.

[John D Thullen]

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/3/17/1928328/-After-weeks-of-inaction-Trump-now-I-felt-it-was-a-pandemic-long-before-it-was-called-a-pandemic

I know many terrible things that are going to happen to that thug lout and his Republican Party and I've been calling it out for four years, by its propor names.

I'm fucking Sybil the Soothsayer.

[John D Thullen]

Though I didn't start spelling "proper" correctly until just this minute.

[John D Thullen]

First it was Beyond Meat, and now we have .. Beyond Air:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/beyond-air-seeks-exemption-from-fda-to-test-device-for-covid-10-2020-03-17?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

When will someone bottle Beyond Fucking Stupidity?

[McKinneyTexas]

BP, I have no issue with waiving the employee piece of FICA taxes as an immediate, consumer-driven stimulus. I do not favor making small businesses bear the cost of CV-caused unemployment, but I do favor unemployment benefits for people who lose their jobs due to CV.

I am very lucky. My firm can function remotely and no one will be laid off. That said, lay-off's in this context are due to a lack of revenues to cover payroll. You can't squeeze water out of a rock. If a business has to shut its doors, trying to force that business to meet its payroll is nonsensical.

[Girl from the North Country]

I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic

Aaaaaarrgh! Will this gaslighting never cease? Have 40% of Americans gone stark, staring mad?

[bobbyp]

My comment here already states my belief that our short-term sacrifice seems worth it.

Absolutely. I believe Loomis was disgusted at those who argue otherwise as the headline seems to indicate. I could not get past the pay wall to read the article.

Thanks. And good luck.

[bobbyp]

McKinney,

Waiving the FICA tax will certainly help, but it does not help those who derive most of their income from tips and have basically been laid off.

SO NO INCOME AT ALL.

This is an urgent need that should be addressed.

I also have no objection to assisting businesses that are in absolute distress, and I believe there are provisions in the House bill to do so.
However, I think the executives/owners should be made to pee in a cup first.

Fair is fair.

Two of my projects (at SeaTac airport main terminal) have been shut down. So if it keeps up like this, I will have no work to perform, much less work at home!

Fortunately, I have the wherwithal to get by in the interim. Many do not have those resources. They need to be made available NOW.

[cleek]

if we can give banks a $2T goose, we should be able to send a few bucks to actual people.

should.

i know, it's socialism when people get money, but not when banks get it. but, maybe this once?

[wj]

Economists themselves are constantly reassessing how well they evaluate data, and refine techniques and assumptions.

That should be competent economists. Among whom, Laffer (for example) is clearly not numbered.

[sapient]

That should be competent economists. Among whom, Laffer (for example) is clearly not numbered.

True in any discipline, and we all know that economics has been politicized, and that there are economists who are hired to feed preformed conclusions. But there are plenty of economists in academia and think tanks who are trying to do the hard work.

Thanks, bobbyp. In my opinion, the article was another headline failure by the NYTimes whose reporters often have it right only to have their work sabotaged by headline writers (an example of another discipline, journalism, that can be excellent and indispensable, but also sometimes a huge disservice).

[John D Thullen]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/government-should-say-to-businesses-dont-lay-anyone-off-2020-03-17?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

Unrealistic, I expect, but so were guillotines, the Russian monarchy's plans for a weekend picnic that fateful week in 1917, and Nicolae and Elena Ceaușescu's guessing that they knew it was to be a firing squad from the beginning before anyone else knew it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkZZWcecGik&t=37s

[John D Thullen]

How bout just a thread entitled "Insanity, hold the politics:.

[John D Thullen]

I'm self-banning.

To protect yourselves, get rid of that 5:06 pm

Fuck America.

[5:06 comment deleted. No more of that please.]

[liberal japonicus]

This may be of interest, if you read the Korea posts

https://www.lawfareblog.com/lessons-america-how-south-korean-authorities-used-law-fight-coronavirus

[John D Thullen]

https://twitter.com/BryanShields1/status/1240035527367237632/video/1

[bobbyp]

maybe this once?

not a chance. otherwise the descent into pure communism would be inevitable.

[sapient]

My guess is: payroll tax cuts; demand to cut SS and Medicare.

I'll just roll with whatever. I know who I'm voting for and it's not R's. I hope the D's can pull off some good ads. If, that is, TV or Internet is still available in the days before the election. Nothing is a given anymore.

[Dave]

"They should be gunned down mercilessly like a fucking gauleiter emerging from the ruins of Dresden with one hand up in mock surrender and a Mauser pistol concealed in the other behind his back."

Posted by: John D Thullen | March 17, 2020 at 10:19 AM

I am a longtime lurker since the days of Publius and Hilzoy.

Look, I get it, it's a metaphor, it's a longtime commenter, it's just talk. Stress release. I'm not actually worried and I'm sure the mods aren't either.

But I don't know why this is allowed.

My disgust with Fox news knows no bounds. (Well some bounds apparently.) I get it. I bet my positions are in many cases more out there than John's. But still.

Look, if the official position of the people who run the blog is that literal heads on pikes are the only way to fix the current mess... well, then come out and say it. Otherwise why let this slide?

Christ what did the 5:06 comment say to get deleted

[CharlesWT]

But I don't know why this is allowed.

Section 230 hasn't been repealed yet... :)

[russell]

But I don't know why this is allowed.

It's the Thullen exception.

Occasionally we ask John to give it a rest. He does so for about a minute, then calls for the slaughter of every conservative on the planet. Again.

Basically, the only recourse he is giving us is totally banning him, and none of us can bring ourselves to do that. As of yet.

We pretty much all agree it's tiresome. And it basically drives some folks away from the site. But we have an affection for the guy. So, it's the Thullen exception. For now.

Maybe check out one of the other threads. We're hoping JDT confines his ire here at "Politics and Insanity".

John, please don't make us ban you. Thank you.

Christ what did the 5:06 comment say to get deleted

I'm thinking it was "The Aristocrats", only featuring the Trump family. With maybe some Putin on the side.

:)

[John D Thullen]

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/paula-white-coronavirus-prayer-trump

Go to the 3:25 mark for the answer to this monstrousness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T36Gzd7NpZ0

"I bet my positions are in many cases more out there than John's."

I'd like to hear those positions.

"what did the 5:06 comment say to get deleted"

It was asking why no one is telling THEM "no more of this".

Be well, keep safe. Hug your kids.

[John D Thullen]

I shall be the one to do the banning.

Take care.

[russell]

the official position of the people who run the blog

also, too:

there are two aspects of your question that assume things that are not in evidence:

1. somebody (possibly plural) runs this blog
2. that person or persons has an official position

we do our best.

It was asking why no one is telling THEM "no more of this".

Been at it for almost 20 years now. "They" don't appear to be listening.

[cleek]

when the going gets tough, libertarians cry out for government.

McArdle:

To avoid this disastrous outcome, we need to “cancel everything” for some, hopefully short, period of time. But that won’t work unless we ensure that the people who will be most hurt — people and businesses who make things or provide services in a physical location — come through this relatively unscathed.

Henry Olsen:

Even most libertarians grant that this is a legitimate government police power that can be used in emergencies to save lives. Everyone expects that government power will recede as the threat is reduced.

His [Trump's] cavalier attitude is gone, replaced with a neo-Churchillian resolve to fight the disease wherever it appears and with whatever it takes.

you're welcome.

[russell]

you're welcome.

don't bother. they think they thought it up all by themselves.

[wj]

I just saw that Brazil has decided to postpone their census from this year to 2021. Which naturally raises the question of our census. An election, after all, is only one day; a census has people out knocking on doors for weeks.

So, will we delay ours? Long enough to delay the decenial redistricting? Now there's a hot politican question!

[wj]

My wife passes along some great marketing she just came across:

Buy our takeout pizza and get a free roll of TP!

Brilliant

[russell]

Did a BJ's run today for various staples. The store was completely stocked, except for toilet paper and facial tissues. Of which there were none.

Shelves probably eight feet high and twenty-five or more feet long. Both sides of the aisle, and then around both corners.

Empty.

Toilet paper appears to have assumed some kind of talismanic anti-viral properties in the popular imagination.

[Marty]

I had a Zoom call with a vendor in the Phillipines today who mentioned they did not have toilet paper at work or home. Which was an oddly uncomfortable conversation.

[bobbyp]

But still.

The current manifestation of the republican party is an existential threat to our democracy and to our future. If you can't get upset about that, well, what will you get upset about? they want to rip up the social contract. they want to unleash the ultimate destruction of global climate change...they just don't give a fuck.

right wing media shouts we (you know, us) are moral baby killing monsters that need be squashed like bugs, and i mean literally. they want us purged like Stalin purged the old bolshies...have you never listened to a Limbaugh diatribe? it can sharpen you mind.

but we cannot return fire? that may not be wise.

Thanks.

[John D Thullen]

Outside of Manila and a few other cities in the Philippines 45 years ago, it was best to carry one's own toilet paper.

Try a banana leaf.

If you asked for toilet paper in a remote barrio, everyone would crack up.

In Northern Thailand tribal areas, the stout, gnarly-looking black and grey pigs raised by the hill villagers would follow you into the jungle to help out with your toilet, like an invasive, hovering bathroom attendant in a sketchy restaurant.

During monsoons, especially on some of the outer small islands in the Philippines, after three days there was nothing but rice and maybe a bony fish called Bangus if you were lucky. Maybe a fertilized duck egg. Crunch.

Got caught in one of those monsoons for eight days once. I felt like I was in a Joseph Conrad novel.

I drove to a Walmart today on a wild toilet paper chase on the outskirts of Denver, more out of a kind of dystopic curiosity than anything else.

Nothing. No paper products of any kind. Baby wipes out too, though I picked up a tub of those the other day.

No bleach. A few diapers. Lots of Depends left, but give it a couple of weeks.

Charcoal was gone too, oddly enough. People might be headed for the mountains, them thar hills, in their $40,000 mobile campers.

Without toilet paper, but with plenty of Doritos.

Food, more or less, was in good pretty good supply.

Think about it. Lots of food goes in, no toilet paper when it comes out.

So, this is how it ends. With a giggle.

Picked up a gallon of Bloody Mary Mix on a whim of fortification, whims apparently still being a thing during the apocalypse. It was a Bloody Mary spree, which of course might be curtailed by the coming martial law.

The unemployment application hotline went down today in the city of Denver. I hear no one could get through.

My son working as a Chemistry post-doc at University of Michigan called yesterday to say they'v booted 30,000 undergrads, and he will be out of a job, though still paid, for about six weeks.

He was going to start applying for jobs this summer. Who knows now.

He just got over the regular flu (and is fine now) and is going to drive back in a couple of weeks. But he's going to quarantine himself, being a responsible scientist, for two weeks so that he doesn't come back here and give his parents something.

I'm getting over the flu myself, I hope, but if I'm still sniffling or coughing when he returns, I'll forgo seeing him.

[CaseyL]

What the libertarians refuse to understand is that starving government 95% of the time means it doesn't have the resources to ramp up for the 5% of the time you decide maybe having a government is a good idea.

Enormous nation-wide emergency programs are not spun from thin air, but depend on having the people, money, equipment, and planning already in place.

Take the pandemic task force, for instance...

[John D Thullen]

The English language style book is being rigorously adhered to in many places as a descriptive of what's going down:

https://www.eater.com/2020/3/16/21182291/restaurants-wont-survive-coronavirus-pandemic-without-bail-out

[John D Thullen]

"What the libertarians refuse to understand is that starving government 95% of the time means it doesn't have the resources to ramp up for the 5% of the time"

If you mean libertarians, republicans, and the conservative movement, no, they not only understand it, it was the plan.

They've done it.

Check your bathtub. You'll find a tiny skeleton.

Taxes are slavery. Taxes are theft.

[John D Thullen]

On the spending side, except for government functions they cut to the bone like EPA and such, they spend like crazy and then expect Democrats, if they ever win a fair vote again, to clean up the spending spills on all of the other spending aisles.

You think anyone is going to propose a limit on the debt ceiling at the moment, except for Rand Paul, who has the exquisite timing of a sociopath.

McConnell will say on day one of Biden's Presidency that he's going to shut down the government by refusing to lift the debt ceiling.

If Trump wins, besides Armageddon cresting like a tidal wave over us, he will default on the debt.

Read Michael Lewis' "The Fifth Risk".

Stiffing borrowers is Trump's one true competence.

He was born for the role.

Even I find myself tiresome, pretty much.

I hear a ceaseless drone in my ears, and it turns out to be my voice.

[John D Thullen]

In the likeness of Hunter Thompson, we are living in heinous times.

The forked tongues of the conservative movement waggle at us like accusatory giblets.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

“Objective journalism is one of the main reasons that American politics has been allowed to be so corrupt for so long.”

More if you need it.

https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/hunter-s-thompson-quotes

Print it out. You might need it for toilet paper.

[John D Thullen]

Donald John Trump:

"They tell me I have enormous powers. The Constitution says I can do whatever I want as President"

[John D Thullen]

The silence you desire is now yours.

Please be well, my friends.

[JanieM]

If you can't get upset about that, well, what will you get upset about?

Who the hell around here isn't upset? That's got fuck-all to do with JDT's endless vomit of useless wanking about "K and B and S," which at best diverts energy and attention from the real work that needs to be done.

but we cannot return fire? that may not be wise.

"Returning fire" by acting as stupid as they do just means that the whole world, instead of only half of it, has lost its mind. Above all, "Returning fire" in the form of explicitly calling for the killing of specific people isn't going to hurt them. If it hurts anyone, it's going to hurt us, Section 230 notwithstanding. IMO it already has.

GftNC's (apologies for using your comment to make this point) comment at 2:58 yesterday made me realize the extent to which keeping us in a state of constant outrage is the point. It's the point of everything Clickbait says and of every outrageous harangue that spews from the voices on right wing radio.

They want their side to hate us, yes, but they also want to make sure we keep being outraged, because outrage is the opposite of inspiring, or energizing. It's either useless, or worse, it makes us more likely to do stupid things that ricochet back and hurt us instead of them. It claims and then drains our attention, and saps our energy. It lessens the chance that we will figure out effective countermeasures and leaves us sputtering inanities that hurt no one but ourselves.

And now JDT will spend the next three days subtly, or maybe unsubtly, mocking this comment, as he did with "vermin" a couple of months ago and "no more of this" yesterday.

Have fun wanking, JDT, because apparently that's what we're here for now.

To commenter Dave, who delurked momentarily, apparently to no avail: thanks for trying.

[byomtov]

Thanks, Janie.

[cleek]

Toilet paper appears to have assumed some kind of talismanic anti-viral properties in the popular imagination.

it's amazing.

there's no shortage on the producer end - Georgia Pacific is still cranking it out the way they always have. the problem is all in the minds of the people who are somehow convinced there isn't going to be any more to buy. and to prove themselves right, they're creating the very shortage they're worried about by buying all they can carry.

[Dave]

"We pretty much all agree it's tiresome. And it basically drives some folks away from the site. But we have an affection for the guy. So, it's the Thullen exception. For now."

Fair enough, I don't comment here so I don't really have any say.

"I'd like to hear those positions."

There's a reason I'm a lurker! I don't have the time management skills to devote to the long comments that my mania would require.

"The current manifestation of the republican party is an existential threat to our democracy and to our future. If you can't get upset about that, well, what will you get upset about? ...
but we cannot return fire?"

I guess I agree that violent rhetoric (action?) could be acceptable (appropriate? morally required?) in some circumstances. But I have no idea where that line is, and we just had an earthquake here, so I'm not gonna think about it at the moment

[wj]

Returning fire" by acting as stupid as they do just means that the whole world, instead of only half of it, has lost its mind.

Amen, sister, amen.

[russell]

Thanks, Janie.

Seconded (or thirded at this point).

[Girl from the North Country]

Thanks, Janie.

Fourthed, with feeling. And no need for apologies, feel free to use me as a cautionary tale/example anytime you want!

[CharlesWT]

So, the federal government is beginning to respond to the economic impacts of the pandemic. Some of it helpful, some of it harmful, all of it expensive.

"The plan also specifies that checks will be sent in the style of Universal Basic Income (UBI). The measure, popularized by Andrew Yang during his run in the Democratic presidential primaries, reached bipartisan consensus this week when Sen. Mitt Romney (R–Utah) declared his support for cutting everyone a check. As it stands, the stimulus allots $500 billion to be distributed to Americans in two payments, with the amount tiered based on income and family size, disbursed on April 8 and May 16."
$1 Trillion Coronavirus Stimulus Unveiled: Corporate Bailouts and Loans, Checks for All: The package seeks to curb the economic chaos caused by COVID-19.

Checks directly from the government will defiantly help a lot of individuals. But it may increase inflation as more money chases few goods.

In the meantime, "WHERE'S MY CHECK!"

[wj]

it may increase inflation as more money chases few goods

I thought the whole point of those one-time payments was to replace money which would no longer be circulating. Those who really need it (i.e. working low pay jobs which may well be gone currently) will not be spending more -- it will be the same (actually less) money chasing the same goods. And those who don't need it won't actually be spending that much more.

You might have a case if it was being set up as a recurring program. But as a one-time thing? Can't really see much inflation risk.

[nous]

I understand the importance of returning fire. I also think that fire discipline is an important trait; go figure -Ph.D. in rhetoric and a concentration in the rhetoric of violence.

Audience is everything.

Returning fire here does not fire for effect; to get Lefties to respond to this sort of volley you need an audience more like DU. And you can't really engage fire against concentrations of RWNJs. Going to a forum where there are lots of RW inflammatories only gets one banned for not being Of The People. That leaves precious few venues where left and right are still engaged, and pretty much none of them can do what they do with a constant barrage of saber rattling.

I do live in fear of the moment when the center torso mass of the Left decides it is done with the constant calls for violent political action and purification on the right and decides to call. We've talked enough about the historical predecessors here to know that will be an ugly patch for all involved.

[Girl from the North Country]

What is DU?

[CharlesWT]

Democratic Underground?

[russell]

Some of it helpful, some of it harmful, all of it expensive.

Sounds like normal every day life, to me.

[bobbyp]

Returning fire" by acting as stupid as they do just means that the whole world, instead of only half of it, has lost its mind.

So, when FDR said, "I welcome their hatred" he was just acting stupid?

To my way of thinking, it was a clear shot across the bow. But maybe we have difference concepts of what constitutes fire.

Thanks.

[Girl from the North Country]

"I welcome their hatred" is just the same as saying "their contempt is a badge of honour to honorable men". It is not calling for, or threatening violence.

[Girl from the North Country]

Not that I know who FDR was talking about, or the circumstances in which he said it. OK, I'm going to shut up now.

[nous]

What is DU?

Yes, Democratic Underground and the like. Any forum that trends towards reading and nodding along with the latest Jacobin op ed.

Which, you know, good on ya. I'm glad they care deeply about the things they care deeply about. The left is utter crap at unified fronts. That's why it takes more of us. But you need someone around to make the threepers think twice.

It's the duel from The 13th Warrior:

Herger the Joyous: Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it since we arrived. Now he has to calculate what he can't see.
Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan: And fear... what he doesn't know.
[Herger makes a head-smacking gesture]

[bobbyp]

I do live in fear of the moment when the center torso mass of the Left decides it is done with the constant calls for violent political action and purification on the right and decides to call.

I, for one do not currently share such a fear. The "center torso" of this "left", let us call them Sanders supporters just to try and get a handle on things, constitutes perhaps 1/3 of politically active participants in the Democratic Party, i.e., sizable, but still a distinct minority. The "leftier left" Greens, etc., is pretty small potatoes, and hardly violence prone. The 'revolutionary left' (let us call them 'marxists') is, well let us be frank, pretty much politically irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. Sure, there are the "anti-fas". Again, for now this is small stuff.

I look to late stage Weimar for a kind of inexact parallel. Very inexact. But it cannot be denied that extreme times may call for extreme measures. I hope we win the political battle and don't find ourselves in that terrible situation.

But the right has made manifest their will to power, their ruthlessness, and their proclivity for violence.

If it comes to that, what is the proper response?

[sapient]

If it comes to that, what is the proper response?

If we don't have the tools of government (as Lincoln did), we don't have a response.

I want to have a response, and I want to be able to "fight". We should have a shadow government right now, but we don't. Without winning the election, or without a shadow government that can govern in defiance of those in nominal power, we have nothing.

I was not disappointed in Obama. I was not disappointed in the Hillary Clinton campaign. I have been disappointed in the fact that we don't have a structured alternative now, something that we can support "if it comes to that". Because it actually has come to that, hasn't it?

[sapient]

Just to follow on my 10:13, I think that blue states have been stepping up to a large extent, and that is something we can support. Governors.

[bobbyp]

The left is utter crap at unified fronts.

LOL. I am reminded of the Monty Python Popular People's Front of Judea. Yes, they are terrible at that. It could be said that the worst thing about the "Left" is leftists.

But I would take pains to remind that in unsettled times it is the center and center right that typically caves to the far right.

The lure of 'normalcy' is highly attractive.

[JanieM]

nous -- not for the first time of asking, how about a guest post sometime on the rhetoric of violence, or conflict work, or whatever you might care to focus on?

[wj]

It's not even just the blue states. All the governors have had to step up, simply because the Federal government, or at least those in charge, were determined to ignore the whole (inconvenient to them) thing. Governors didn't have that luxury.

When we are past this, the governors and the state governments will be a big part of why it wasn't much worse.

[bobbyp]

OK, I'm going to shut up now.

LOL. Me too. See all in a couple weeks. I will watch the circus and contain my rage for a bit.

Take care.

[bobbyp]

...and my condolences.

[Girl from the North Country]

Thanks, bobbyp.

"I welcome their hatred" is just the same as saying "their contempt is a badge of honour to honorable men". It is not calling for, or threatening violence.

Perhaps I should have been clearer: these are insults, not threats, let alone of violence.

Regarding the necessity, or validity, of violence in the cause of defending democracy, I hope my support for e.g. the ANC in the past has made it clear that I do not oppose it in principle, or in fact in practice when necessary. But endless "threat-porn" (as one might term it) does absolutely nothing to advance any cause, and only endangers both the threatener and the audience.

[liberal japonicus]

threat-porn

Brilliant!!

[JanieM]

Thanks for the clarity in your 8:50 and elsewhere, GftNC.

bobbyp's position might make a shred of sense to me if we had spent the past three years talking about crocheting and tea cakes, and as soon as someone popped up to say "Hey, Rs, we don't like you," that person got told to shut up and be nice.

In fact, we (speaking loosely) have done almost nothing for three years but fire "shots across the bow." We had the Mueller report. We had an impeachment! "We" have all sorts of nasty names for Rs, that make "the Democrat party" look tame.

It's not like the other side doesn't know how much we hate their guts.

So to pretend that there's some kind of fatal-to-the-cause censorship going on when someone asks that we not be subjected to a constant stream of threat and violence porn seems a little...strange.

For the record, the speech in which FDR said "I welcome their hatred."

[Hartmut]

Number blindness or complete callousness, you decide:
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/ron-johnson-s-coronavirus-perspective-takes-unsettling-turn-n1163691

Reminds me of this guy:
General "Buck" Turgidson : Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.

[wj]

Maybe he misread the decimal point...?

Whether to 0.34% or 34% is left as an exercise to the student.

[Girl from the North Country]

threat-porn

Brilliant!!

I was merely riffing on Janie's "wanking" theme...