Wuhan's first?

by liberal japonicus

I'm back with an Abbott and Costello pun to start things off.

Obligatory exposition. I was an exchange professor in the city of Daejeon, an hour south of Seoul for one year. While there are lots of things that I hope I will write about, I thought that I would start with some discussion of the coronavirus and what I've seen in Korea and Japan. As I'm sure all of you are aware, the Chinese efforts to contain the virus have been pretty intensive/harsh/draconian (adjectives to adjust depending on your opinion of China and the danger of the virus). I'm not sure how much coverage you've gotten where you are, but here is an interesting story, and the twitter video can give all your Chinese learners some stuff to practice listening to. (不客气!) However, because I wasn't in China and I wanted to talk about my personal experiences, I won't talk anymore about that. I'll also leave Ugh's post up so folks can talk about what is happening elsewhere especially in the US. I realize that may be a bit chaotic, but I feel like the situation in Asia is quite different than the US, though reading the Guardian suggests that there are some similarities with the UK and Europe. Anyway, more below.

So, I was finishing up my year in Korea, where the universities start at the beginning of March and one of the early responses was that date was pushed back 2 weeks, with the February graduation ceremonies cancelled. I surmise that some big reasons for this were that there are a lot of Chinese exchange students in the Korean universities (more than Japan) and the Korean college student population is much less tied to a hometown, so you would have people travelling from all over the country. I also guess that this is why they didn't ask elementary, secondary and hagwon (private cram schools) to close. There was a pretty impressive turnout of resources, hand sanitizer dispensers appeared everwhere, all the train stations had consultation tents and temperature cameras, airports have had them since SARS, but they were all fully staffed. Posters everywhere with explanations on handwashing and regular announcements on transport, in stations and other places, all multilingual. All staff with masks, required, a requirement that was extended to every work place shortly after.

I had gone back and forth to Japan a week earlier and when I reentered Korea for the last time (Feb 17), they were interviewing everyone entering with a Chinese passport, and foreigners with longterm visas were no longer permitted to go thru the automatic immigration barriers. The last one seemed more performative, in that Koreans were still allowed to use the automatic gates, but I suppose they wanted a check on all foreigners. However, I'm not sure how they would have told the Chinese from the Koreans for the automatic barriers, though it is possible that they could have flagged their passports, and they directed me because I was more obviously foreign.

This was before the cluster in Taegu, South Korea, which was the airport that I have been travelling thru the most this year. Here are two links about that cluster
from the Guardian and the BBC. This is a great set of graphics from Reuters detailing clusters and explaining why the Taegu cluster raised such red flags. The interaction between the church at the center of the Taegu cluster and Korean reaction is something I'll try to take up in a later post when I discuss Christianity in Korea.

I also can't find it, but when the first few people who test positive for the virus show up, both in Korea and Japan, they will publish a detailed itinerary of where they were. This Korean article is a rough example, and there is a post about information and information technology in the works.

As most of you realize, left/right mappings are always complicated by internal politics and history, so one country's political ecosystem never neatly maps onto another country's, but for shorthand, the current administration is left, the previous right leaning President, Park Geun-Hye having been impeached. but the current administration of Moon_Jae-in is assumed to be more sympathetic to China as well as dealing with North Korea (something that interacts with Trump's call for SK paying a larger share of defense) All this is an interesting mix, so there is quite a bit of argy-bargy about how South Korea has not stopped all Chinese from entering the country as evidence of communist leanings. And there are people on the left who are quite disappointed with Moon's tenure, and the virus is providing a locus for pent up anger, but I didn't really get as deep an understanding of the currents to be able to confidently explain them.

As a side note, for me, the received wisdom was that Park Geun-Hye was a buffoonish character who was manipulated, but a good Korean friend said, when I wondered, after passing a group of people handing out leaflets in front of a banner with her face why this was still a thing, she said that she had met her in the context of her work and she was actually quite sharp and her impeachment was due to larger forces, which gave me pause and something to think about as the Democratic primaries kick into high gear. But back to the story.

When I departed from Korea out of Taegu for the last time, it was the last flight as the route was suspended the next day. As a point of contrast between Japan and Korea, I returned to announcements that all foreigners who had visited Taegu would be banned from entering Japan. Again, since all the flights from Taegu had been cancelled until further notice, the action was completely meaningless as there was no way to know if a foreigner had visited Taegu, except as a retroactive step, if someone had entered Japan, come down with corona and, in the course of investigating, was found to have visited Taegu, it immediately becomes the fault of the person rather than the system that failed to keep them out.

This raises one of the points I think distinguishes Korea and Japan. People often say that Korean has a 'ppallippalli' culture (link, link) and the response to corona is an example of that. Another friend suggested that Korean society was a lot like something that would be designed by a 16 year old genius: brilliant ideas, but not enough lived experience to avoid huge potholes. Still, the idea of not waiting, but doing something, seems to be baked into Korean culture.

On the other hand, Japan is a country that changes slowly, if at all. Outside of the Meiji revolution, (itself a rather protracted affair, but quite short compared to previous history), Japan is the opposite of ppallippalli. Karl van Wolferen, in The Enigma of Japanese Power, likened Japan to a hugh ship that can be turned only incrementally and currently (he was writing in the late 80's) is without a rudder. The book is not often on lists of books to read, in part because it offended Japanese so much, but it seems to me that the current administration of Abe Shinzo is an exemplar of this. For example, the day before yesterday, Abe announced that elementary and secondary schools should close until the start of the spring break (Japan school year starts in April, so the last few weeks of classes, which include graduation are in March) However, there was apparently no consideration of families with 2 working parents, nor understanding that hospital nursing staff will be a particular problem. This seems like a studied ignorance of women and society (a post about differences and similarities between Korea and Japan is on the back burner as well) but it is likely that the announcement permits Abe's government to claim they did what they could and schools will, in the absence of clear guidance, make various nods to the policy without actually doing it. Of course, with the Olympics coming to Tokyo, the concern is that it will impact that, and because Japan has become so dependent on tourism, there is a fine line to tread. I've got this open on my computer, which might be interesting if you want to see what's happening in Japan. But I'm not too optimistic with the reports of the cruise ship quarantine being a fiasco, and reports that hospitals are refusing to test for corona.

I'll finish up here, I'd be interested in seeing how much of this is familiar to all of you and what you are seeing where you are. Stay safe and wash your hands!!

[added]
Just as I hit post, I remembered that Hilzoy had posted a few times about dealing with flu, as well as getting a guest post, which I link here as they still have good information in them.
https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/10/bird_flu_prepar.html
https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/04/swine-flu-what-we-should-do-for-one-another.html
https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/04/swine-flu.html
https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/11/quarantine.html

Comments

[CharlesWT]

China's top-down authority and bottom-up responsibility approaches to dealing with crises aren't working very well at the moment. A big loss of face for the central government. Plus a significant portion of the Chinese population hasn't grasped the whole germ theory of disease thingy yet.

[nous]

Here at my university we have a huge population of Chinese internationals. So far it's not affected much. I had about four people in each of my classes wearing masks and a bit more concern amongst my students about their usual winter illnesses. Absences are up a bit, but there are no real signs of panic or paranoia.

As an adjunct who receives no sick time whatsoever, I do wonder what happens if the pandemic does spread. It seems that COVID-19 has little effect on the young, but I do worry for older lecturers who are themselves of have members of their households who are immunocompromised. I know a few, and they are facing some very serious and hard choices.

And Spring break is just three weeks away. It will be quite interesting to see how many of our internationals opt to remain here rather than go home, and also how the first few weeks following break play out. And there are dozens of other colleges and universities across Southern California who will be facing the same circumstances.

[liberal japonicus]

Charles, we can debate your first two sentences, but I have to say, I find the third one rather racist.

[Hartmut]

Given that a lot of Kristian(TM) fundamentalists in the West (not just in the US) also oppose germ theory and try to spread this disbelief, I would not necessarily consider claims of educational backwardness as racist. As far as I can tell China is still a developing country at least as far as rural areas are concerned and if I compare it with the abysmal state of ecuation in e.g. rural Germany up to WW1 I would not be surprised at all, if traditional beliefs have not died out yet without taking any assumption about specifis 'chineseness' as a reason.
Heck, even in industrialized countries a majority seems not to grasp the difference between viruses and bacteria and that antibiotics don't work against the former.

[liberal japonicus]

Heck, even in industrialized countries a majority seems not to grasp the difference between viruses and bacteria and that antibiotics don't work against the former.

Hence, claiming that Chinese somehow have this mistaken belief more than others is racist. Which lays the ground work for things described in these links
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/02/18/how-covid-19-coronavirus-is-uncovering-anti-asian-racism/#295e17bf29a6

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/20/us/coronavirus-racist-attacks-against-asian-americans/index.html

[Hartmut]

Well, THAT is indeed something different.
I also assume that it is just an excuse to voice the pre-existing prejudices now that there is 'proof'. And to make hay of other people's prejudices of course (like a high ranking Trump official speculating that it'll help the US economy and serves the Chinese just right).

[Nigel]

Plus a significant portion of the Chinese population hasn't grasped the whole germ theory of disease thingy yet...

I just watched a video of Mike Pence, recently put in charge of responding to the virus threat, wiping his nose with his bare hand at the press conference...
https://twitter.com/NewGopforUSA/status/1232891149737697280

A significant proportion of the US population are in active denial of science. And the VP is one of them.

[CharlesWT]

Charles, we can debate your first two sentences, but I have to say, I find the third one rather racist.

I was just underplaying what some Chinese citizens have said. They give the impression that they think the majority of the population is not much aware of the concept of germs. Or, at least, apply it to their everyday lives. Such as the restrooms in hospitals in first-tier cities not having soap to wash hands.

[liberal japonicus]

I hope this isn't the 'but you call each other that on rap songs' argument...

And somehow, I think the lack of soap in hospital restrooms might be down to lack of resources and one shouldn't presume that because of the lack of soap, Chinese haven't "grasped the whole germ theory of disease thingy". And not wishing this on anyone, but if the same situation occurred in the US, I would guess we'd see a lot more of things like this:

https://cspinet.org/news/cspi-urges-fda-enforcement-action-televangelist-jim-bakkers-fake-coronavirus-cure-20200218

[John D Thullen]

"Such as the restrooms in hospitals in first-tier cities not having soap to wash hands."

I second lj's point about the lack of resources in many hospitals around the globe.

But observing that fact is not racist.

Especially if we observe that it wasn't too long ago (news cycles are conveniently short in amnesiac America) that American hospitals were under, and still are, deep criticism for failing to and refusing to observe rudimentary hygiene protocol as basic as personnel washing THEIR hands.

THIS, in exceptional fucking America that has no excuse for lack of resources, except for that made up by hospitals MBA administrators, nearly all white and mostly male, who were trained by Friedmanesque business schools to purposefully hobble resources and training for the benefit of the shareholders of publicly owned corporations.

Death from infections transmitted in American hospital environments are still beyond unacceptable.

My sister, who was gravely ill from complications from a lifetime of diabetes died a horrible death in a very fine Pittsburgh hospital in 2006 from one of those common but preventable infections.

Aside from the fact that her death was a blessing and respite from long suffering, nearly the entire hospital staff was white.

Somebody fucked up, but good luck getting to the bottom of it.

You wanna witness malignant racism in real time?

Tune into subhuman vermin Tucker Carlson and Rush Limbaugh and the cocksuckers in the Republican White House, as they ramp up the 2020 election campaign to destroy and thwart all of their hated globalism and this time they aren't going to go after the (I'm talking republican lingo here) niggers and the fags and the kikes and the feminazis as they have in past cycles, that's old hat (oh, they still hate those folks), no, the new thing is once again another round of the all-American fucking yellow peril.

Expect to see Bannon-originated ads linking Bernie Sanders or whomever is the Democratic nominee to the Chinese woman eating a whole bat with chopsticks from a saucer of soup and other bullshit inaccuracies.

The American Conservative has already mis-reported THAT. Dreher, to be precise. I requested a retraction or correction to no avail, the lie being useful to their ideology.

You wanna see racist?

If Republican and what they themselves call "conservative" is a racial designation, then I'm Lester Maddox with an ax handle keeping these filth out off my business premises and out of my fucking government.

Wipe THEM off the face of the Earth.

The election is already stolen.

It's too late to wash our hands of what is coming.

[novakant]

This is an interesting account of what happened in Wuhan:

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n05/wang-xiuying/the-word-from-wuhan

[CharlesWT]

First-tier cities in China are the ones with the skyscrapers and the streets packed with expensive foreign cars. If there's no handsoap in hospital restrooms, never mind other public restrooms, it's not due to a lack of resources.

[John D Thullen]

Really good article.

This quote:

"A particular bombshell was the Guo Meimei saga of 2011. A pretty young woman who claimed to be a Red Cross manager – her Weibo profile had a blue verification badge confirming it – was seen all over the internet flaunting her Maserati, Hermès bags and generally extravagant lifestyle. There was an uproar on social media: she was doxxed and trolled and called ‘China’s most despised woman’. Guo may not have had an official connection with the Red Cross – her actual association was murkier – but the episode drew attention to the organisation’s many shady commercial affiliates and the money being splashed around. Its reputation has never fully recovered."

There's a Chinese Bannon and a Chinese Carlson tearing China a new one for running dog Americanizing to such an extent.

I think my dentist at least looks at the Maserati and Hermes catalogs after I have a crown installed.

Then he gets on his boat.

[Turbulance]

First-tier cities in China are the ones with the skyscrapers and the streets packed with expensive foreign cars. If there's no handsoap in hospital restrooms, never mind other public restrooms, it's not due to a lack of resources.

So, I don't know much about healthcare financing and hospital operations in China. But this seems like absurd reductionism. One might say that surely there are no slums in wealthy American cities, no one dying for want of insulin, and yet...there are.

If you've got some evidence that proves that Chinese people reject the germ-theory of disease at higher rates than people in the US, that would be interesting. But you don't, so the assumption that the dirty foreigners must be stupid and that explains their sickness is just racism.

Besides, lots of people don't believe in the germ theory of disease. Jordan Peterson has millions of followers who worship him and he eats a meat-only diet.

[CharlesWT]

If you've got some evidence that proves that Chinese people reject the germ-theory of disease at higher rates than people in the US, that would be interesting.

A video blog episode by a Chinese citizen describing the lack of sanitation in Chinese wet markets, supermarkets, and hospitals.

Chinese Wet Market Tour and Important Warning

Video blogs by two guys who have lived in China for over a decade. You won't agree with everything they have to say. I don't. And they can be wrong about some things. But they have seen a lot more of China than most Chinese citizens. So they speak from experience.

ADVChina: Adventure Talk Show on 2 Wheels

laowhy86

serpentza: The Original China Vlogger

[Turbulence]

Charles, those are some lovely links. But they're not, you know, responsive to my question. I didn't ask "do there exist any people in China with poor sanitation practices?". Your links would be responsive to that question. I asked for evidence showing that Chinese people reject the germ-theory of disease at higher rates than people in the US. Now, structurally, nothing you offer that involves only a bunch of dudes in China can address that question, because dudes making observations about stuff in China don't tell us anything about the comparison to the US.

What you might have done is dug up a study run by some reputable epidemiologists showing that 80% of people in China reject the germ theory of disease while only 20% of people in the US do. I don't think any such study exists, but if it did, that would support your contention. But it doesn't, so you just assumed that to be true because you think Chinese people are stupid. Which is, you know, a racist statement. Which is what LJ said hours ago.

I don't even think that most Americans believe in the germ theory of disease. If they did, then why do restaurant workers say that their bosses tell them to keep coming to work when sick? Why don't kitchen line cooks get sick days off?

[CharlesWT]

But it doesn't, so you just assumed that to be true because you think Chinese people are stupid.

I think nothing of the kind. After all, Chinese and other Asians are, on the whole, smarter than the rest of us. :)

But China is very much a country in transition. It's still recovering from the Cultural Devolution and the Great Leap Backwards. A few miles outside any first-tier city is a third world environment.

And Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore are filled with Chinese people and don't have many of the pathologies observable in China.

People in first world countries have more leeway to be a little careless about personal hygiene, sanitation, and not believing in germs. These countries have cleaner environments and better medical care to fall back on.

Decades ago, I read a science fiction novel wherein part of its premise was that advances in medicine had eliminated all infectious diseases. As a result, the characters in the novel had disgustingly bad hygiene and sanitation habits.

[John D Thullen]

"I don't even think that most Americans believe in the germ theory of disease."

No kidding. Well, not if it hinders billable hours and productivity.

I've been in wet markets in lots of countries.

Same most everywhere. I had the dysentery to prove it.

Singapore is very regulated in that respect.

Their outdoor markets are not libertarian, like some Chinese wet markets, and thus are pristine germ wise, as much as possible.

It's nearly Communist in its regulation of germs and hygiene.

Lots of Chinese in Singapore, so the stereotypes don't hold.

I've sat in upscale restaurants years ago in major Indian cities and watched upscale Indians eat with their right hands, reserving the left hand for other matters. Yet three forks to the left of the plate, and two spoons and two knives to the right, untouched.

It is what it is.

Denying the germ theory.

Hmm, sounds like global climate change denial. Sounds like the soon-to-be-dead Limbaugh (hallalujah!) and his epidemiological explanation of the current viral outbreak. Sounds like trump and his hoaxes. Sounds like late night American cable bullshit ads to me. Sounds like we're going to be raptured by Mike Pompeo, that bag of dirt.

Other cultures, sure, are ignorant to some extent of the science behind hygiene.

And yet in America we have conservatives and religious shits denying basic science as hoaxes, some of it over fear that gummint might violate libertarian principles.

I'll take the dysentery over our home grown deliberate, willful, malignant, conservative Evil.

We have Pence the shallow prosperity gospel no condom ignoramus heading up a scientific medical body.

The nation's chief epidemiologist was fired by Pence's boss last year. The ones that are left are under gag orders by the White House.

Who needs the Chinese, when we can be conservative paranoid racist authoritarian ignorant malign assholes all by ourselves.

There will be violence and we will miss Antifa's brand of amateur mayhem.

[John D Thullen]

More to Turbulence's point regarding American germ theory coming up against the American germs in charge.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/coronavirus-could-hit-american-workers-especially-hard/607213/

[John D Thullen]

Hindu nationalist murderers take solace from Trump's presence in their country:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/what-happened-delhi-was-pogrom/607198/

Kill and butcher and slaughter.

[wj]

Maybe Pence will decide to do a photo-op at a facility for covid-19 victims. Just to show how under control everything is, of course. And obviously without masks, which would be bad for his facial recognition in the photos.

If you want to get really enthused, you can picture him coughing on Trump in a subsequent Cabinet meetingpandering session. Just imagine the tweets after that!

[liberal japonicus]

I just want to underline that I pointed out the statement is racist, which says nothing about what your thinking is.

But I'd like to think that you'd realize your statement is problematic when you consider this article, which points out that women are more hygenic than men. Would you then claim that this means men must not have "grasped the whole germ theory of disease thingy".

On the other hand, this does provide a new angle on toxic masculinity...

btw, a welcome back to Turbulence.

[CharlesWT]

I just want to underline that I pointed out the statement is racist, which says nothing about what your thinking is.

My thinking is that much of Mainland Chinese don't have a tradition of thinking and worrying about germs and how to avoid them.

After thoroughly washing your hands, how do you escape from the restroom without touching what everyone who doesn't bother to wash their hands has touched? Especially if there are no paper towels. Those inwardly opening doors can be difficult to overcome.

[byomtov]

A welcome back to Turbulence indeed.

And he's making trouble again.

[John D Thullen]

Anti-regulatory trump republicans are on the side of the germs versus normal people:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-administration-has-dragged-its-feet-on-safety-regulations-that-would-protect-health-care-workers-against-coronavirus-2020-02-28?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

They are beasts.

[John D Thullen]

At times like this, I try to look below the surface of what the stock market crowd is claiming the problem to be ... in this case, the coronavirus ... and what is usually revealed is a money liquidity problem of one kind or another:

https://www.mcoscillator.com/learning_center/weekly_chart/fed_pulling_back_from_repos_at_the_wrong_time/

On the other hand, this particular guy, like most Americans, seems to know the right thing about what the government, or anyone else besides themselves, should do, but they refuse, being too good, I expect, from their high judgmental perch with no responsibility, to actually work for the government, and if they did, they would be wrong too, according to everyone else.

It's the full of shitness of the entire show that gets me.

[wj]

So, how long before Trump figures out it's the Fed, and not covid-19, that he should be blaming?

Put another way, how long until Federal efforts to respond to the virus get back-burnered? Because, if it's not what is hitting the Market, Trump (with the highest quality government medical care for himself) doesn't see any need to care.

[Hartmut]

wj, you are not up-to-date. Trump has been blaming the Dems for several days now.
Both for making the whole 'carona' virus thing up and for having primaries and candidates that cause panic at Wall Street because there is a tiny wee remote chance that one of them could become president.
As we all know it's a dogma that good economic news under Dem leadership are either fake or caused by the expectation that they will lose the next election while bad econmic news under GOPsters are fake AND caused by Dem sabotage AND by expectations that the Dems will steal the next election AND a carryover from the last Dem administration.

[wj]

Hartmut, he was always going to blame the Democrats too. Just like he was always going to denounce the media for "fake news" about the virus.

My point was about what the administration will actually put efforts into doing. Specifically, will they do anything useful about the virus? Or will the action be focused to redirecting (or reconstituting) the Fed to keep an overheated economy bubbling for a few more months?

[liberal japonicus]

This could be an interesting test of what people really believe. Would he be willing to hold a MAGA rally in the middle of the pandemic? And would his believers happily pile in a stadium to prove his detractors wrong?

[liberal japonicus]

A few more interesting links
via TPM
smoking increases danger from Corona
This is interesting because, from my experience, the number of smokers, especially younger smokers, was a lot greater than I expected in Korea. In Japan, it seems to be dropping and vaping/electronic cigarettes have not made the inroads that they seem to have in Korea. However, it didn't seem as gendered as the link suggests it is in China.

The fluwiki is no longer up, but is now a facebook group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/93263609767/

[Hartmut]

Some investigative journalists should take a look whether and to what degree Jabbabonk (sorry for using the actual name in my last post) tries to personally make money from the whole thing, Is he (or members of his mischpoke) involved in any quack cures or 'emergency supplies' or 'crisis investment opportunities' etc.? would be completely out of character if he were not.

[John D Thullen]

Would he be willing to hold a MAGA rally on a huge melting iceberg recently calved from Antarctica or Greenland and floating into warmer waters.

The term "tipping point" would gain new currency.

His Hefty Royal Loutness does believe in the germ theory, that's for sure.

Witness his banishing from the room of staff who dare to cough twice, though I suspect those coughs are similar to my mother's at the dinner table when one of us was inappropriately not shutting our traps or otherwise acting out.

What if Mick Mulvaney or KellyAnne Conway contracted the virus and cataarhed into their taco bowls at Mar-a-Lago, but ... well, now we're into wishful thinking.

[John D Thullen]

An interesting thought experiment.

Invite your trump-loving relatives or acquaintances over for dinner and simulate flu symptoms at the table, coughing fits, mucus spilling sneezes, etc, and when they clasp their napkins over their mouths and recoil in horror, if they can in fact exhibit any semblance of empathy, and ask if you've seen a doctor, stand up and bring the real life Dr. Fauci out from behind a potted plant in the corner of the room, a la Woody Allen, except he will be handcuffed and his mouth gagged with duck tape.

But seriously, for the real people, not nasty trump filth, suffering around the world with this disease, who have other things to fear than a draw down of their "portfolios":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jrhPCtk144

[russell]

Jordan Peterson has millions of followers who worship him and he eats a meat-only diet.

and is currently in rehab in Russia (?) for addiction to benzos.

a couple of the smartest people I know think Peterson is the absolute bomb. the things that pass for knowledge, I can't understand.

Chinese and other Asians are, on the whole, smarter than the rest of us.

Is it still racist if you say flattering things about entire ethnicities and/or places of geographic origin?

A welcome back to Turbulence indeed.

And he's making trouble again.

yay!

[John D Thullen]

via Juanita Jean:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/02/27/trump-pardon-roger-stone-constitution-117757

Matters not. The Constitution is a dead letter.

Trump can do anything he wants, which means we can too in full savage response.

[John D Thullen]

Either Russia has better healthcare than Canada and America, or all conservatives like Peterson will ultimately be called home to Mother Russia to reward their service in destabilizing the West.

Is he staying in the Ayn Rand suite in the Lubyanka Building during his convalescence?

Peterson no doubt blames his addiction to over-prescribed anxiety drugs on his emasculated manhood.

When he returns, I may start on a course of the stuff myself.

[John D Thullen]

I repeat, America is in grave danger:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/president-trump-absolute-rights/607168/

[bobbyp]

Those inwardly opening doors can be difficult to overcome.

Then don't shut them.

[John D Thullen]

https://digbysblog.net/2020/02/invisible-hand-isnt-washed/

Bend over and cough.

[liberal japonicus]

Forgot to put this link in. The jump of numbers in South Korea is probably due to their testing regime

https://abcnews.go.com/International/massive-coronavirus-testing-program-south-korea-underscores-nimble/story?id=69226222&fbclid=IwAR0SvOvRBu1mh4pLxnTlj_RFAMFgghI2Xr6-NSX6YWWXUFGHsSMLce6ng_E

There was a press conference by Abe, and I got the impression that they are being a lot less transparent about it, largely because of fears about the Olympics.

[russell]

Either Russia has better healthcare than Canada and America

Apparently he went to Russia because they offered some experimental therapy not available here. It involved putting him a medically induced coma, and also apparently it f***ed him the hell up. Like, neurologically damaged him.

I feel badly for him, and wouldn't wish any of that on anyone. I bring it up in Peterson's case because he has made a career for himself out of arguing for self-discipline and the harmful and damaging social effects of coddling people in their "safe spaces".

He was experiencing anxiety because his wife was ill, his doctor recommended benzos, he had a hard time kicking them, and made some bad choices about how to handle that. Apparently.

His self-discipline, 100% carnivorous diet, and embrace of his masculine essence all let him down. He somehow failed to set his own house in order before criticizing the world. Standing up straight with his shoulders back wasn't sufficient to fix what ailed him, as it turns out.

Karma is a freaking b*tch. That is why it's pretty much never a good idea to go around telling people that they need to stop sniveling and straighten up and fly right.

Hubris/nemesis. Sometimes I think the Greeks knew it all.

I wish him a full and complete recovery, and a long and happy life. Maybe the experience will temper his point of view, maybe not. That's up to him.

[John D Thullen]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-situation-in-china-is-even-worse-than-you-think-says-this-analyst-with-a-history-of-accurate-calls-2020-02-28?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

They have their non-transparent commie authoritarians running the show and we have our non-transparent fascist authoritarians.

None of them are named Sanders, Clinton, or Warren.

And I don't care for Sanders or Clinton, but they are bog standard, not expressly evil.

Interesting that if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, some sizable minority of his followers will vote for Trump in the general, as they did in 2016, some of them being asshole cousins with trump lovers.

With ilk like them, who the hell needs conservatives who vote for what'saWuhancallmeGary Johnson to throw the government under the control of corrupt, malignant filth?

[cleek]

Or will the action be focused to redirecting (or reconstituting) the Fed to keep an overheated economy bubbling for a few more months?

DOWist medicine

[wj]

Is it still racist if you say flattering things about entire ethnicities and/or places of geographic origin?

Of course it is. You may be slurring "everybody else but" only implicitly by the comparison. But it's still a slur based on race.

[John D Thullen]

The coronavirus is a hoax.

That is the final word.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/2/29/1922967/-Trump-calls-coronavirus-Democrat-s-new-hoax-as-he-repeats-lies-about-spread-within-the-U-S

And get a load of the California Republican piece of dog shit tweeting in the article.

Bill Gates financed the manufacture of the virus. Soros, blah blah blah.

Gates should arm himself and if that woman comes near him, take her out.

American is in grave danger.

The calls are coming from inside the house.

[wj]

Re JDT at 8:43 AM

I think Juanita Jean got it wrong. The language in the Constitution that gives the President pardon powers "except in cases of impeachment" doesn't apply to criminal cases where the parties participated in something that the President got impeached for. Rather it is a limitation on granting a pardon to someone who was impeached, in order to short-circuit his removal from office or to allow him to hold Federal office again. Neither of which apply to Stone.

I note that, when she speaks of the "plain meaning of the Constitution" on the subject, the article she links to is about whether Trump could pardon himself. (The article argues he cannot.) It says nothing about pardoning others and in what circumstances.

[John D Thullen]

That's for the correction, if you are correct.

So, the Constitution is on Stone's and Trump's side in this matter.

Or, as a strict constructionist might put it, worth less than spit.

[John D Thullen]

https://digbysblog.net/2020/02/it-is-despicable-to-politicize-the-outbreak-of-an-infectious-disease/

I expect to be awarded the Medal of Freedom for my efforts in these parlous times.

[CharlesWT]

Someone said, "Never let a crisis go to waste."

[liberal japonicus]

For those who believe in the whole germ theory of disease thingy...

https://www.devex.com/news/opinion-as-the-world-battles-coronavirus-never-let-a-crisis-go-to-waste-96661

[John D Thullen]

Someone?

I think Winston Churchill said it first out loud and then made a career out of capitalizing on it.

Machiavelli of course. Lenin. Lennon. The Lennon Sisters too, those opportunists, the three of them wrapping Lawrence Welk around their ring fingers.

Interesting links:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-pollution-vanishes-across-china-114801234.html

Once we get industry up and running again I expect Kudlow and company to use spiking deaths from pollution-related respiratory diseases as a positive leading indicator of the robust health of his tax-cutting economic ideology.

I have a bit of a cold at the moment, hopefully just a delayed relapse after vigorous Mardi Gras revelry and candle-burning from the middle out, so if my condition worsens from air pollution and I die from it do I get the Medal of Freedom posthumously in our valueless scumbag pig fucking republican world.

On the other hand, if Rush Limbaugh contracts the Coronavirus and it complicates the morbidity of his lung cancer and puts him in his grave with the Medal of Freedom around his lynched neck, will the next Democratic President order exhumation and reclaiming the Medal for decent human beings who haven't contributed to the ruination of the United States of America?

Shit:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/middle-eastern-stocks-plunge-oil-085657774.html

[liberal japonicus]

I have a suspicion that Charles was referencing Rahm Emanuel, probably because when he said it, he was also referring to potential pandemics, made all the more likely given his long training and expertise as an epidemiologist.

[CharlesWT]

"Coronavirus Update 28 with pulmonologist Dr. Seheult of https://www.MedCram.com.

Topics include what health care professionals and other citizens can do to prevent COVID-19 spread, coronavirus case fatality rate based on patient age, and further discussion on coronavirus test kits."
Coronavirus Epidemic Update 28: Practical Prevention Strategies, Patient Age vs. Case Fatality Rate (YouTube)

[John D Thullen]

https://www.factcheck.org/2011/01/bum-rap-for-rahm/

I assumed Charles was referring to Emanuel's quote, but it wasn't an original thought on Emanuel's part, regardless of how it was twisted by his enemies.

[liberal japonics]

Here's an article about what is happening in South Korea.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/korea-watch/no-panic-here-i-am-south-korea-watching-coronavirus-spread-128697?fbclid=IwAR2_qGbznjpSoaLD0A5ld7GzMMYxHr6Mqdqp3HDRXwM9ZsplQGUB2SSW5iI

As a bonus, it is from the guy who was on BBC remotely and his kids came in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4f9AYRCZY

never gets old...

[wj]

Reports of people preparing for trouble around here. Costco actually ran out of toilet paper! Similar reports from Target, etc. Paper towels and bottled water were running out. Also lots of people stocking up on things like flour and other raw material for bread. And, of course, face masks and gloves.

In the short term, the economic stats will look good from all the spending. But then people will start using up their supplies. It's not really panic yet. But it looks like sentiment is moving that way. Too bad we don't have a trusted national leader to calm people down.

[John D Thullen]

Regarding lj's link to the BBC interview made joyous by children and their hilarious mother who re-enacts any number of Looney Tunes scripts, stick around for the Ellen Degeneres video de-briefing of the incident.

After the children are "ushered" from the room, you can almost hear John Cleese in a bad female falsetto from the next room reading the kids the riot act and accosting them with any object at hand.

Something similar happened to a North Korean commentator being interviewed on the same subject and HIS children and wife were invited to be the main attraction at an anti-aircraft gun exhibition in a stadium, which I guess also illustrates the difference to conservatives of the difference between a quasi-Sanders-like government-subsidized outfit like the BBC and the murderous gulag trump conservatives make NPR out to be.

[russell]

Someone said, "Never let a crisis go to waste."

to which our current POTUS adds, "...and if there isn't one handy, create one!"

[GftNC]

Too bad we don't have a trusted national leader to calm people down.

But it's OK, Pence et al are on it, and relying on the very entity who (presumably) created the virus in the first place, so is therefore best placed to deal with it:

https://twitter.com/thomaschattwill/status/1234252762055090176

[John D Thullen]

Obviously, the American Christian entity who created the virus, as with the AIDS virus, has a formidable enemies list to target with viral warfare:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/coronavirus-kills-top-iranian-official-state-media-reports?via=newsletter&source=CSAMedition

As always, there is blowback on the creators:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/02/24/808914718/secretive-church-sect-at-the-center-of-south-koreas-coronavirus-outbreak

One could hypothesize that the habit of praying for one's enemies who one believes deserve God's vengeance, as is long practice among republican conservative right wing Christians .... AIDS victims, tornado and hurricane victims, EBOLA victims .... is a vector worth exploring as the source of the spread of disease.

Worry not, Rod Dreher conservatives are bracing for full martyrdom, because they are the victims regardless of what it is that is doing the victimizing.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/christian-scapegoats-coronavirus-trump/

[John D Thullen]

Well, of course, when wooing as a royal swordsman, one mustn't spare any prop or piece of furniture to achieve one's amorous ends:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/prince-andrews-go-to-seduction-move-is-to-let-women-sit-on-the-queens-throne?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning

It's all very well, but of course scandalous, for we peasants, like Tom Jones or Moll Flanders, to have a bit of a rolling lie down in a hayrick in pursuit of this earth's meager pleasures, but the high born gentlemen and gentle ladies, our virtuous betters, deserve more luxurious support for their mutual comfort.

One wonders if Falwell the younger and his one and lovely, along with whatever third party is invited along for the romp, use to support their thrustings toward the divine, even as they tut-tut birth control protection for we of the more careful classes who take our rare pleasure as it comes ... without paying for it.

[wj]

Mystery question of the week: why water?

It's understandable that people who are worried about being quarantined, or just about going out for the next few weeks, would want to stock up on basics like food or TP. But there's no reason why the virus outbreak, even in a worst case scenario, would hit water supplies. That's a concern for something like an earthquake, or maybe a major power outage. But a virus?

It's like people (including the media) have only one disaster preparedness template. And they recycle it, regardless of the details of what the potential disaster is.

[John D Thullen]

Transparently untransparent:

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1234536619270688768&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eschatonblog.com%2F

Or, as I like to call it, Trump Republican Party gummint.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"It's like people (including the media) have only one disaster preparedness template."

A few snowflakes falling from the sky, and people have to stock up on their "snow bread" and "snow milk".

French toast while trapped indoors during a snowstorm is a tradition, I guess.

[hairshirthedonist]

Some people fill their gas tanks before a snow storm because they might not be able to drive to the gas station after the snow.

[John D Thullen]

Gesundheit!?

https://digbysblog.net/2020/03/heckuva-job-pencie/

In other news, Mike Pence, one of many conservatives who are major shareholders in Carnival Cruise Lines, the luxury ocean cruise liner company, announced that as vaccines to inoculate against the Coronavirus are developed and manufactured, most of the inventory will be stored on the company's ships to be allocated to first class passengers who book early and often for the summer cruise season.

Right-wing Christian ministries across the country are reported to be reserving blocks of cruise liner cabins in a program know as Operation Noah's Ark. Australian Marsupials once again may not apply.

God is my sneeze guard as I belly up to the buffet on the USS Prosperity Gospel.

[cleek]

milk sammiches!

stocking up on water makes no sense. looks everybody is just copy/pasting that same list of things you should stock up for in case of a hurricane.

[cleek]

Some people fill their gas tanks before a snow storm because they might not be able to drive to the gas station after the snow.

here in hurricane land, people do that when a hurricane is coming because they don't want to get stuck in case the gas station runs out and can't get gas deliveries for a while.

[Turbulence]

*waves at folks*

Hi friends! Sorry for commenting and running, but I am a very tired Turbulence who now has an extremely energetic 2-year old running about and a teenager living with us as well. Hope you are all well, or, as well as can be in the current nightmare.

[Girl from the North Country]

I am a very tired Turbulence who now has an extremely energetic 2-year old running about

From what I think I remember about one of the last times you dropped in, that is particularly good news! Congratulations!

[Nigel]

Is this true ?
https://twitter.com/DarcyBurner/status/1234946039901085697

If so, unforgivable... and things are going to get unpleasant very soon over there.

[wj]

Nigel, I suspect that all those "not yet reported" cases are simply people who haven't gotten tested yet. Due to our massive lack of testing kits. Which is also unforgivable, but with a different focus.

And yes, things are likely to get very unpleasant very soon over this. The only question is how unpleasant. That and whether Trump's already-in-progress effort to shift the blame** is successful to some degree.

** I love that he's now trying to blame Obama for the mess that he, Trump, created.

[Nigel]

There’s no “simply not getting tested”, though.

Untested out in the community (or in hospital), and a significant proportion going. back to works because no sick pay....
This thing is going to get beyond any feasible control pretty soon. If not already.

[John D Thullen]

Inhaling the body and the blood of Christ:

https://twitter.com/Guruleaks1

I'd like a little polio with that.

[John D Thullen]

blame Obama ...

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/trump-coronavirus-testing-blame-obama.html

Don Jr., product of malformed devil sperm and a dodo egg, claims democrats want the virus to spread across America and kill millions of Americans.

I would never cheer such bipartisan spirit in a killer virus.

There is killing to be done, but viruses aren't specific enough when it comes to political targets.

For that, we have the Second Amendment.

[liberal japonicus]

Worry not, Rod Dreher conservatives are bracing for full martyrdom, because they are the victims regardless of what it is that is doing the victimizing.

Has Dreher addressed the point that there are no women in the taskforce, despite the fact that the field is skewed towards women?

http://blog.eoscu.com/blog/women-in-epidemiology

[Pro Bono]

First-tier cities in China are the ones with the skyscrapers and the streets packed with expensive foreign cars. If there's no handsoap in hospital restrooms, never mind other public restrooms, it's not due to a lack of resources.
I was in Wuhan in September. There's a lot of money being spent on premium goods in shopping malls. But when I walked through the city I saw a fair amount of what looked like slum housing for ordinary people to live in.

[John D Thullen]

Dreher is afraid that a female epidemiologist or two sneaky-peted on to the task force and might be presenting as male, having slipped past his dragnet of hysteria due to sex reassignment surgery.

Dr. Fauci is obviously a beard.

You can tell because he loses all of the arm wrestling contests when the task force goes out for beer and prayer after hours.

[John D Thullen]

Plus, during the germfest with Trump the other day, trump addressed Fauci more than once in this manner: "Look, Antonia, when I want a girl's opinion, I'll summon Ann Coulter in here with a strap-on and give it to you good and hard! One of you lackeys run down to the local beauty queen dressing room and find me someone loyal .. and flexible ... who'll tell me this virus will be gone by Friday."

"And, Mike, would you PLEASE stop picking your nose on camera? How many times do I have to mispronounce "OPTRICS!!!?"

[John D Thullen]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/president-trump-disputes-whos-coronavirus-fatality-rate-34-is-really-a-false-number-now-this-is-just-my-hunch-2020-03-05?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

The WHO, the CDC, all surviving Beatles, and David Crosby, are recommending all Americans start wearing this mask in the interest of safety and to protect against postmodernist conservatism:

https://www.ebay.com/p/719313182?iid=172253582343&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=172253582343&targetid=883564623986&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9028772&poi=&campaignid=6469750549&mkgroupid=93041470030&rlsatarget=pla-883564623986&abcId=1141176&merchantid=114147024&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxLO4sMCD6AIVDdRkCh2rjA6REAYYASABEgKMnfD_BwE

Let's commit goddamned national arson, what say you?

[John D Thullen]

Only one thing must happen before we kill, butcher, and slaughter the entire conservative movement.

We must raise the inheritance tax rate to 100 percent and then have the fuck at it.

I still find it hard to believe that Hillary Clinton purposefully lost the 2016 election and convinced Donald Trump to burn down and destroy the Republican Party directly from the Oval Office, but there is no other explanation, is there, conservatives and republicans?

"It's the role of a lifetime, Donald!!"

[John D Thullen]

Both sides do it.

Both sides are on the same side. Trump's.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-public-health-menace-coronavirus/

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/coronavirus-the-latest-attempt-to-prove-trumps-a-chump/

The rest of us are mere onlookers to America's collapse at the hands of the Party of every bad and contradictory idea, pursued with utter absolutism.

Elsewhere, Dreher is going on about Schumer's harsh language toward the Supreme Court regarding abortion.

Here's a deal:

The conservative movement works overtime for 45 years to destroy two American institutions per week in pursuit of their malign goals.

The least liberals can do is up the ante and kill three institutions per week in response.

Call me Uncle, motherfuckers!

[John D Thullen]

Other reasons Trump and Pence look askance at women on task forces is because the latter might nag them with their off-putting vaginal harsh talk (otherwise known as manly no-two-ways-about-it absolute certainty and now get out there and hup-to or we'll fire your asses) about what must be done, like Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton do.

Plus, the girls might have to visit the bathroom occasionally during the meetings, which the mere thought of Donald finds disgusting as he did Hillary's pee-break (actually, according to in-the-know conservatives, she was undergoing a quick blood transfusion during the debate to fight off terminal something or other) during the 2016 debate.

A real leader has a solid gold toilet and a wide stance and toilet paper dispenser sporting the likeness of Mike Pence on his knees.

[John D Thullen]

America has no idea what is coming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM1gEZXzunI

Ans now, as Rodney Dangerfield said on Johnny Carson when he was done: "Alright, bring out the next guy!"

See ya next week.

[wj]

So now Trump says it's fine to go to work if you have covid-19.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/05/trump-disputes-coronavirus-death-rate-121892

Wonder what happens if someone with it tries to go to work at the White House. Notorious germaphobe that Trump is.

[hairshirthedonist]

Medull of Freedumb

https://factcheck.afp.com/coronavirus-hoax-spreads-online-after-rush-limbaugh-broadcast

[wj]

I suppose we can expect Trump to blast the State Department for saying this.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/03/05/state-department-face-fresh-questions-senate-about-coronavirus-misinformation-online/

[Hartmut]

I wonder if a number of people with coronary disease will get quarantined by mistake given that a lot of people avoid Corona beer for fear of infection (no, I did not make that up).
Next season: dentists get quarantined because people confuse plaque with plague.

[liberal japonicus]

Unbelievable

https://www.thedailybeast.com/grand-princess-cruise-passengers-found-out-they-had-coronavirus-from-pence-speech

[Girl from the North Country]

Hartmut, I believe that Corona beer rumour was debunked. Believable though.

[John D Thullen]

https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/03/07/covid-19-update-domestic-edition-friday-saturday-march-6-7/

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/how-many-americans-have-been-tested-coronavirus/607597/

Meanwhile:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/03/02/how-stephen-miller-manipulates-donald-trump-to-further-his-immigration-obsession

Meanwhile, social media and government agencies are being hamstrung and hacked by Trump's foreign aces in the hole, with Bannon's instigation, to sow disinformation and mayhem.

We have a fascist authoritarian pig fucking vermin republican government that is utterly incompetent and purposefully useless (they are trying to prove their malignant thesis that government should be abolished) in wielding legitimate authority when human lives are in danger, and in fact,treats human beings like pieces of dog shit.

Overthrow, kill, butcher, and slaughter.

Overthrow, kill, butcher, and slaughter.

How can Fauci stand there?

Trust no stinking, fucking conservative or republican.

If you stand next to them, you ARE them.

[Hartmut]

How can Fauci stand there?

They can't (yet) kill him on life camera, so it's the safest place.

[wj]

Just so he avoids 5th Avenue

[wj]

The impact of covid-19 may extend beyond health and politics. Significant as it may be there.

For example, there may be some enduring changes to American work practices as a result of covid-19. Once you discover that you can do your job without commuting, and your employer doscovers that he doesn't need to pay for all that office spave, why go back?
https://jalopnik.com/seattle-traffic-does-not-exist-amid-virus-fears-1842178424

[John D Thullen]

They will not stop until they are killed, butchered and slaughtered in a bloody fucking civil war.

https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/03/07/gop-venality-open-thread-erik-prince-teams-up-with-project-no-veritas/

[John D Thullen]

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/03/its-long-past-time-for-donald-trump-to-quit-the-clowning/

Conservatives, you own this you jagoffs, and you will fucking pay.

Tell us all about Hillary. Tell us all about Obama.

C'mon, open your stinking fucking mouths one more time.

[liberal japonicus]

When you have Kevin Drum going Thullen on us, it really suggests crossing a line...

[John D Thullen]

More about the Devos family:

https://www.balloon-juice.com/2020/03/07/the-really-important-fact-about-erik-prince-that-everyones-coverage-keeps-missing-his-frontier-services-group-is-funded-by-the-peoples-republic-of-china/

We really don't know who these anti-Americans are.

[Hartmut]

If the info is right, Israel now requires quarantine for New Yorkers and some other USians travelling to Israel. AIPAC attendees are excepted. And from the same news: There were corona cases at that very conference (and at CPAC). There are also rumors that there is a short unbroken chain of handshakes from one of the infected to Jabbabonk (and Pence) but no one dares to tell him. Shall we hope?