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August 03, 2019


It's enough to make one wonder whether Walmart might want to rethink selling guns and ammunition at its stores generally. They have apparently stopped selling guns in New Mexico recently, and they stopped doing so in California years ago, so it wouldn't be a totally novel idea.

So hard, after all, to get repeat sales to dead customers....

Walmart is probably afraid of the Moron Labe backlash that would come down on them if they did.

Walmart is probably afraid of the Moron Labe backlash that would come down on them if they did.

Still, if they've already stopped selling guns in some states, maybe they could do it in others. CVS stopped selling cigarettes five years ago and the world didn't end for them.

And anyhow, if both white power terrorists and brainless punks (the Auburn ME incident) are using your properties to slaughter people, maybe it's time to rethink the trade-offs.

Yes, but in both CA and NM they could frame their decision to stop selling firearms and ammunition as a decision to reject the states' regulatory regimes. But there is no way to spin a withdrawal from the market in response to violence that lets you blame things on governmental overreach. It would be seen as a traitorous defection in the midst of the culture war.

It would be seen as a traitorous defection in the midst of the culture war.

Sometimes, you have to do what you have to do.

Because customers are important to a business. And the number of potential customers desiring to shop without getting shot is rather larger than the number who would be seriously offended by being no longer able to buy from you the means to shoot other customers.

I agree. I'm just trying to parse out the particular bind that this decision will put them in, and how it is different from their more limited decisions in select states.

I think I'd see it as a matter of hitting a tipping point. Scattered attrition to the customer base is (apparently) quite tolerable. But a sufficiently large spurt of losses, in a short time period, starts to look a lot less tolerable.

Especially if it occurs to you that, because you seem to have become a popular site for shootings, your customets cost/benefit calculations could start coming up less in your favor. How big a dollar savings is required to compensate your customers for how big a (perceived) increase in the chances you you and yours getting shot?

So it turns out the shooter wrote an anti immigrant manifesto. And now all the claims from the right that this has absolutely nothing to do with Trump's hatemongering or the complicity of the rest of the party with his hatemongering or the participation of the rightwing "news" in promoting not only his hatemongering but hate directed outward toward the rest of us for years and years and years.

Romney had the nerve to tweet that he didn't understand where someone could get such a dark sick idea as to shoot all those people. SO shut the fuck up Romney you gutless asshole. YOu know exactly where he got his ideas.

Americans valorize violence. It is, to a disturbing degree, seen as an acceptable way to resolve conflict. And, it is almost absurdly easy for anyone to buy quite powerful firearms.

Unsurprisingly, we shoot ourselves and each other in shocking numbers. And then find ourselves shocked by it.

All of this is profoundly sad. I can't, or maybe just don't want to, imagine the pain of having lived ones torn out of their, and our, lives so pointlessly.

Some people just want to see the world burn. Here in the US, we'll sell those people guns.

Thank you, Janie, for posting the names. These were just people going about their lives, and their lives were taken from them. They should not be forgotten.

Loved ones, not lived ones.

You know, almost immediately after I started posting at ObWi, I got into a fight with Slarti about guns. It had actually never occurred to me that any reasonable, sane people (such as I knew from observation to constitute the ObWi commentariat) could possibly support America's gun laws. And to tell you the truth, it still amazes me. I had thought that the existence of all those other "free"*, democratic countries getting along just fine without guns would prove that you didn't need access to firearms to guarantee freedom from tyranny, or anything else. I had failed to allow for, among other things, the fact that when people are used to a right, they will object to it being taken away, particularly when they have absorbed so much propaganda about what that right really represents.

*Depending on your definition of freedom, of course. I could quote the great Randy Newman again for just one example of the USA's vaunted freedom:

Yes he's free to be put in a cage In Harlem in New York City

And he's free to be put in a cage
On the South Side of Chicago
And the West Side
And he's free to be put in a cage
In Hough in Cleveland
And he's free to be put in a cage
In East St. Louis
And he's free to be put in a cage
In Fillmore in San Francisco
And he's free to be put in a cage
In Roxbury in Boston
They're gatherin' 'em up from miles around
Keepin' the n*****s down

From nbcnews.com:

Abbott [TX gov], however, said it was too soon to discuss blame and gun policy.

"There are bodies that haven’t even been recovered," he told reporters at a separate press conference. "We need to focus more on memorials before we start the politics."

In this way, we ensure that we can never discuss gun policy, because there are always bodies that haven't been recovered yet: early the next morning in Dayton. Many more names to follow.


GftNC: you didn't need access to firearms to guarantee freedom from tyranny

It depends what you mean by tyranny. It's tyranny if you're not allowed to grab far more than a fair share of the goodies, but it's not tyranny if you can get shot at the grocery store by some random asshole. It's tyranny if you have to share the city park with some gay or brown people, but it's not tyranny if the gay or brown people have to live in fear of you, because they aren't really fully human, after all, and it's your country and your world, not theirs, so there. And so on.

“In less than one minute, Dayton first responders neutralized the shooter," Whaley said.

Hey, since there were good guys with guns (in this case, the police), only nine people died. What's not to like?

It's tyranny if any given individual can't own enough weaponry to wipe out the Continental Army. It's not tyranny if you can't go to the grocery store without being butchered.

Repeating, from the Texas governor: "We need to focus more on memorials before we start the politics."

As with tyranny, a convenient assertion of the right to control definitions, and to tailor them to one's own ends.

Mass slaughter with assault weapons is politics, quite overtly in cases like El Paso. So these cynical assertions that it's the people who would like an end to the bloodletting are the ones using the slaughter for political ends are (I'm just repeating the obvious) making sure debate never happens. Thanks in part to the Parkland kids, and the overreach of the criminal cabal at the NRA, maybe the tide is turning.


Collective insanity.

And this is without getting into the really big numbers, the daily drip drip drop of murders and suicides that would happen in a country that wasn't drowning (or bleeding to death) in firepower, like that one at the Auburn Walmart last weekend.

7:57: that "wouldn't" happen in a country....


tyranny: When you can't go to the grocery store or your place of worship or a concert or to school without fear of getting massacred by some punk with a theory of the superiority of what he imagines to be his kind of people.

said it before, i'll say it again: the 2nd amendment's widest, most-felt, effect is the copper-plated guarantee that most people must live with the constant fear of being shot by a random asshole with a gun.

"Your dead kids don't trump my constitutional rights"

Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher, aka Joe the Plumber

GftNC, to each country its madness. For Germans it is football (soccer to our US readers) on non-pay TV and freedom of the road for cars. There have been actual attempts to have our highest court declare free football on TV a human right and speed limits on the Autobahn unconstitutional. At least one RW extremist party made it part of the party platfom to get rid of 30 km/h zones in-town. Not enough kids run over by speeders, it seems.

The classic slogan is "Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger" (free (=unregulated) driving for free citizens).

Funny how across cultures, "freedom" always means "freedom to do things." I think we ought to generate a global campaign to add nuance, so that "freedom from things" (like the murderous hobbies of our neighbors) is just as important.

FDR tried to get the point across:

Freedom of speech
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear

Just another part of his legacy that the right is bent on destroying.

In Orwell's newspeak 'free(dom)' still exists but is very narrowly defined ex negativo as an absence ('the doog is free of fleas').

I had thought that the existence of all those other "free"*, democratic countries getting along just fine without guns would prove that you didn't need access to firearms to guarantee freedom from tyranny, or anything else.

The extent to which the average American is flat out ignorant of other countries can be difficult for those from elsewhere to wrap their heads around. Ignorance of what gun laws actually are elsewhere. Ignorance of how much (or little) tyranny other people tolerate. Generally clueless.

You don't have to look at gun laws to see it. Just listen to our discussions about health care. We're not talking about what kind of system would avoid the problems that other countries' systems have (and they do have them); we're starting from "first principles". And the detail that nobody else in the world pays anything like our drug prices? The average American would be astonished; at most, he would posit huge government subsidies, with the drug companies getting the same amounts.

Jordan Anchondo

EL PASO, Texas (AP) — A 25-year-old woman who was shot while apparently shielding her 2-month-old son was among the 20 people killed when a gunman opened fire in a crowded El Paso shopping area, her sister said.

Leta Jamrowski, 19, of El Paso, learned Saturday afternoon that her sister Jordan Anchondo had been shot to death at Walmart while shopping for back-to-school supplies earlier in the day. Jamrowski spoke to The Associated Press as she paced a waiting room at the University Medical Center of El Paso, where her 2-month-old nephew was being treated for broken bones — the result of his mother's fall.

"From the baby's injuries, they said that more than likely my sister was trying to shield him," she said. "So when she got shot she was holding him and she fell on him, so that's why he broke some of his bones. So he pretty much lived because she gave her life."

Anchondo was the mother of three children.

Jamrowski spent the night desperately awaiting word of whether her brother-in-law, Andre Anchondo, had survived the attack that also wounded more than two dozen.

"They said that if he were alive, more than likely he would have gotten in contact by now," Jamrowski said.

More on her life, rather than her death, when that information becomes available.

Apparently the RWers are already all over the media blathering about mental illness and other murderous deflective nonsense.

This is how it's going to end. Or has ended, because really, we're already in a civil war, cleverly obscured as such by the main perpetrators, who have constructed an elaborate plausible deniability built around inciting stupid young men to shoot up public spaces. Of course it may well get much worse, which will be the perfect excuse to move on to the phase that Nous mentioned yesterday.

Fine, lets make it about mental illness.

Require a psych workup before you can buy a gun.

So glad to live in a country where, if you feel like someone is taking away your freedom, you have the right to murder your way back to freedom again.

USA - we're apparently the only country in the world with mentally ill citizens!

let's flood the country with guns!

Arturo Benavides

A niece of Arturo Benavides's confirmed to BuzzFeed News on Sunday that her uncle was one of the people killed in the shooting.

Jacklin Luna described her uncle as "a strong-willed, caring, giving, and special person." She said he was an Army veteran and was well-known in the community as a bus driver for Sun Metro for years.

Luna said her uncle was very involved in his family and their lives, always asking "about school, work, and our lives with love."

"He was the person to always give a helping hand, a home to stay, and a meal," she said. "He loved each and every one of us in our own ways. Loved oldies on a Sunday morning, sitting out on his chair in the front porch with his dog Milo at his feet."

Luna was one of many family members who posted to social media on Saturday and Sunday searching for Benavides, called "Turi" or "Tury" by different relatives.

Another niece of Benavides's, named Samantha, tweeted that her uncle and aunt were shopping together when the shooting began, and got separated. His wife was able to escape.

Dayton victims

Megan Betts [sister of the shooter, age 22]

Lois Oglesby, 27, Saeed Saleh, 38, Derek Fudge, 57, Logan Turner, 30, Nicholas Cummer, 25, Thomas McNichols, 25, Beatrice Warren-Curtis, 36, and Monica Brickhouse, 39

More when more information is available.


Right-wing extremists killed more people in 2018 than in any year since 1995, the year of Timothy McVeigh’s bomb attack on the Oklahoma City federal building.

but really it's the left's fault for trying to make the US a safer place for people who aren't male white Christian right-wing assholes (redundancy is free today).

"Require a psych workup before you can buy a gun."

Require one before you sell and/or manufacture a gun. If the suspect passes that test, all the more reason to prohibit their actions.

"You passed the sanity test. Now feel free to go do something insane, like manufacture and sell firearms."

Require that every person who applies to purchase a gun be shot in one foot first, right there in the fucking store. Let them hop around hollering just for a taste.

If they still want to buy a gun after recovering from that, require that they bring a close relative along the next time for a flesh wound in the thigh.

Maybe un-insurable sepsis will set in.

Christian America believes in human sacrifice at the alter of the Second Amendment.

Their absolute, unwavering certainly on this matter is reinforced ideological rebar self-shoved up their fundaments, the better to stand athwart humane sanity in this unrecoverable country and yell "No!" at it.

In a malign reversal of the Scriptural metaphor of the predicament of Abraham and Isaac, wherein Yahveh the trickster fools Abraham into sacrificing a lamb ("kabobs!" stage coughed the Lord's messenger in the nick of time, like the bohunk murderous, racist oaf presently befouling the linen in the White House lifting a tariff threat at the last moment, just for sadistic yucks) instead of his human son, mutton in this country rejoice and gambol free at America's murderous insistence on carrying through with mass human sacrifice because of a misreading of three ambiguous commas in a fucking Amendment.

Several of the human beings who survived the Garlic Festival massacre, all very late term fetuses, whose deaths stinking conservatives would view merely as further down payment on their ballistics technology freedom, also survived the Las Vegas Country Music Festival massacre.

No doubt at least one of them decided to relax and visit a shopping mall in El Paso, Texas as well, and when the shooting started there thought to themselves, on the whole I'd rather be in Dayton Ohio enjoying a cold one.

What's more, the authorities (of what, law? What fucking laws?) in El Paso suspect some of the gunshot victims and survivors who are immigrants ran and crawled away from the scene of the carnage because of fear that the Comanche Republican Conservative ICE fascists would visit further indignities upon them if they were caught alive.

All of that is some sick endemically American pig shit.

Innocent Americans, mostly moderates and liberals, are now like V-2 rocket target Lieutenant Tyrone Slothrup in Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow", psychically wearing homing devices for Nazi rockets and now conservative Republican vermin bullets.

The Governor of Texas and the rest of the conservative movement, its politicians, NRA deaththink tanks, and lickspittle media, once again gauging American citizens' right to speak out against the weapons regime by the rapidly cooling body temperatures of the dead (not yet, not yet, the organs haven't even been removed yet) whose sacrificed blood is on their hands count on one thing: principled liberals won't shoot them dead as they goddamned fucking deserve.

What this country needs is fewer principles and better knife skills.

Texas Republicans are blaming the removal of prayer from schools for the murders.

Presumably because kneeling, praying students and teachers, like all of the praying churchgoers scragged with weapons distributed by the conservative movement in this country, make for even more unsuspecting and supine targets to boost NRA membership and pay for those NRA trips to the local strip clubs and the mag wheels on the hot cars.

I'm calling for the murderers to stop praying before they set out to kill

You go, Janie.

Certainty never sounded better.

Apparently the RWers are already all over the media blathering about mental illness and other murderous deflective nonsense.

Right up until someone wants to spend money addressing mental health problems. Then that becomes "political correctness" (and probably "socialism" somehow).

Another RW theme seems to be: you Dems are politicizing when we should all be coming together to grieve.

It is typical of Republicans to dodge responsibility just as it is typical to define unity and coming together as joining with them on their terms.

We need to put the blame on Trump and the Republican party and be relentless in our assertion of blame.

This next series is from this article.

Derrick R. Fudge, 57

Fudge was a Springfield, Ohio, resident who was visiting the Oregon District with his son, his niece Asia Fudge told NPR.

"He had a dog ... that he loved dearly. ... He was fun, happy," Asia Fudge said. He is survived by five siblings and his extended family.

"Everyone's just trying to come together and get through it as best as we can," his niece said.

Lois L. Oglesby, 27

Oglesby was in nursing school and was the mother of two children, according to a friend quoted in the Dayton Daily News. She had recently returned from maternity leave. "She was a wonderful mother, a wonderful person," Derasha Merrett told the newspaper. "I have cried so much, I can't cry anymore."

Megan K. Betts, 22

Betts, the shooter's sister, was a student at Wright State University studying earth and environmental sciences. According to her LinkedIn page, she spent the past four months as a tour guide at the Missoula Smokejumper Visitor Center in Montana, where visitors learn about fighting fires in remote areas with no roads.

Dayton Police Chief Richard Biehl told reporters that the siblings came together to the city's Oregon District before the attack, though the brother separated from his sister and another friend at some point in the evening. Biehl said that Betts was one of the first people killed in the attack and that their friend was among the injured.

When asked about the family, Biehl said, "I think you can imagine this is a nightmare for them, and I think they are struggling, as you can understand."

Logan M. Turner, 30

Turner was a resident of Springboro, Ohio, and a machinist at the Thaler Machine Co., according to his Linkedin page. His mother, Danita Turner, told the Dayton Daily News that he was out on Saturday night in the Oregon District with his friends to celebrate his recent 30th birthday.

"He was very generous and loving and the world's best son," Turner's mother told the newspaper. "Everyone loved Logan. He was a happy-go-lucky guy."

Turner's mother said he was a graduate of Sinclair Community College and the University of Toledo, where he had studied engineering.

Nicholas P. Cumer, 25

Cumer was a graduate student in the master of cancer care program at Saint Francis University in Loretto, Penn., according to a statement released by the school on Sunday afternoon.

"Nicholas was dedicated to caring for others," wrote the university's president, Malachi Van Tassell. "He was recognized at the 2019 Community Engagement Awards among students who had completed 100+ hours of service. In addition he was a graduate assistant with the university marching band."

Cumer had been in Dayton this summer completing an internship program with the Maple Tree Cancer Alliance.

Thomas J. McNichols, 25

McNichols was a father of four from Dayton, according to the Dayton Daily News. His two daughters and two sons range from ages 2 to 8. His aunt, Donna Johnson, told the newspaper that everyone regarded him as a "gentle giant."

Jevin Lamar, a cousin of McNichols, told the New York Times that McNichols, who went by Teejay, was "a great father, a great brother — he was a protector."

Johnson said McNichols attended Dunbar High School in the city and worked at a Dayton factory. She added that McNichols went to the Oregon District on Saturday night with a cousin.

Monica E. Brickhouse, 39

Brickhouse hailed from Springfield, Ohio and lived in Virginia Beach, Va., according to her social media profiles. She worked as a recovery specialist for Anthem, her LinkedIn profile states. Her Facebook profile also advertises a design, event planning and catering business called "Two Good Girls."

Brickhouse attended Springfield South High School and the College for America at Southern New Hampshire University, according to her LinkedIn page.

Saeed Saleh, 38
Beatrice N. Warren-Curtis, 36

Not much information available yet.

Mentally ill New York City man who said "I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose any of my voters" claims he's losing his deplorable subhuman mentally and conservatively ill voters one at a time because they keep shooting people at his and the Republican Party's urging.

Commenter on a thread at The Mentally Ill American Conservative claims El Paso killer said on 8Chan that he was not influenced by mentally ill President's hateful, racist rhetoric, and we should always believe the shooter, even if he is mentally ill, unless they are a woman who has been molested.

“Romney had the nerve to tweet that he didn't understand where someone could get such a dark sick idea as to shoot all those people”

Just saw a Yahoo story quoting Trump saying there is no place for hatred in this country.

So yes, these people are slimy hypocrites and in Trump’s case he should be impeached for incitement ( the attack on the Squad and other things).

But it is also good that they still feel the need to be hypocritical. Because I imagine Trump’s first instinct might be to double down in his rhetoric and then we might start seeing pogroms. Though no need to reference Russian history, as the US was doing the same sorts of things in the same time period, though with different ethnic groups as victims.

This next series comes from this article.

Jordan and Andre Anchondo

[Jordan was mentioned above. Her husband died too.]

Jordan Anchondo and her husband, Andre Anchondo, were fatally shot while shopping for back-to-school supplies, her sister Leta Jamrowski said.

Jordan Anchondo, a 25-year-old mother of three, was probably shot while she was shielding her 2-month-old son from the gunfire, her sister said. The baby was treated Saturday at the University Medical Center of El Paso for broken bones.

"When she got shot she was holding him and she fell on him, so that's why he broke some of his bones," Jamrowski said. "So he pretty much lived because she gave her life."

My heart is so fucking torn right now. Jordan gave her life protecting her child. I hope you are resting easy in knowing you saved your baby boy.
I am praying you are in recovery, Andre. My heart goes out to you. All of El Paso is here for you and those beautiful babies. pic.twitter.com/efTALC7I9v
— Benjamin Thompson (@benjaminjamess_) August 4, 2019

Andre Anchondo's brother confirmed his death on Facebook.

His friend, Benjamin Thompson, said the two had recently rekindled their friendship and that he had "just finished building a home for his family (with his own two hands nonetheless.)"

Thompson, who had not met his friend's wife, said that from what he'd heard about Jordan Anchondo she seemed to be a "happy and family-fueled mother."

The Anchondos married a little more than a year ago, and Thompson said Andre Anchondo was thrilled when he found out his wife was pregnant with a son.

"There was no happier moment in his life and you could tell," Thompson said. "What happened to their new beautiful family is devastating."

Jessica Coca Garcia and Memo Garcia

Jessica Coca Garcia and her husband, Memo Garcia, were near the front doors of the Walmart raising money for their child's sports team when they were shot, a relative said.

Norma Coca told KWCH-TV that her daughter Jessica was shot in the leg three times and is in stable condition. Memo Garcia was shot twice in the leg and once in the back and is in critical condition.

The Garcia's 5-year-old son and 11-year-old daughter were inside the Walmart at the time and were not injured.

The Facebook page for Don Coca, Jessica Coca Garcia's father, shows a post thanking friends and family for prayers and comments, "especially everyone" who helped his daughter, son-in-law and grandchildren.

PS to the above: The Garcias were injured but are still alive. Maybe their children will be able to grow up with parents who are alive.

Javier Rodriguez

Javier Rodriguez, a 15-year-old who enjoyed video games and playing soccer, was killed in the shooting, according to a Facebook post by his aunt, Elvira Rodriguez.

An uncle of Javier's, Octavio Lizarde, 23, was shot in his right foot and is in stable condition at Del Sol, according to a relative.

Octavio's mother, Dora Lizarde, said the pair were shopping for groceries when the shooter opened fire. She said Octavio embraced his nephew to protect him but the gunman turned around and fatally shot the teenager.

Dora Lizarde said Javier was going to move into her house to start his sophomore year at a new high school.

"That's how close he was to us," she said.

Sara Esther Regalado and Adolfo Cerros Hernández

Sara Esther Regalado and Adolfo Cerros Hernández were among the six Mexican nationals killed in the shooting.

Sandra Ivonne Cerros, a daughter of Esther Regalado and Cerros Hernández, said on Facebook that she and her family were devastated by their deaths.

"These have been very difficult hours," she said. "Right now we are together and dealing with our pain."

More from Mexico:

Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Marcelo Ebrard also released the names of three other Mexican nationals killed in El Paso:

— Jorge Calvillo García

— Elsa Mendoza de la Mora

— Gloria Irma Márquez

Another Mexican national was killed in the shooting, he said, but has not been identified yet.

Sunday in Chicago.

attention "conservatives": if you want to keep your guns, police yourselves. now.

via LGM.

I’m getting tired of the “don’t blame guns” formulation I keep seeing. What the hell does that even mean?

It means the same as ‘too soon’...
.. or “nothing to see here”.

Chantell Grant and Andrea Stoudemire...

...were at their usual spot Friday night, posted on a corner lot in the Gresham neighborhood as part of their effort to curb gun violence in their community.

The two women had spent two years working with Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK), a team of moms who put on events and offer a safe space for kids in the community.

But the peace-seekers became victims Friday when Grant — a 26-year-old mother of four — and Stoudemire — a 35-year-old mother of three — were killed in a drive-by shooting.

What the hell does that even mean?

he was ccrrrraaaaayyyyyyzzeee.
murder is already illegal!

in any case, nothing could be done. time to move on.

A couple of dozen mass shootings ago, I pissed off Slarti by saying that we need to make guns as embarrassing to own as inflatable sex dolls or something. Note that "we" is not The Government. It's each of us, personally, in our dealings with friends and relatives in Real Life.

Slarti was good and pissed, then. I don't know how he feels now. But I also said (maybe in a different mass shooting thread) that my contempt for "responsible gun owners" would increase with every outrage. And it has.


Dana Loesch: The real problem is mental illness!!!

Also Dana Loesch: Hooray! El Paso prosecutors will seek the death penalty, these people need to be deterred!

What the hell does that even mean?

It's an attempt to obscure or deflect from the issue.

Everybody knows that guns don't autonomously shoot people. Everybody knows that some human actor is responsible for killing other people with firearms.

What gun advocates want to say is, I use my gun responsibly, I didn't shoot that guy, why should my rights and privileges be infringed in any way by other people's criminal or irresponsible or insane behavior?

That's a great question. Let's address it.

I'll start with an analogy. In MA we recently had an incident in which a guy who is a MA resident, and has a MA drivers' license, was cited in another state for dangerous driving. The other state informed the MA RMV of this. The MA RMV failed to follow up and take action.

The guy ended up killing 7 motorcyclists in NH.

Gee, what should we do to prevent things like this?

We could take everyone's car away. Or we could exercise greater oversight and discretion about who gets to drive.

We're probably going to go with plan B.

Nearly all of the proposals for addressing the fucking horror show of gun violence in the US are of the plan B type. The one exception is the on again / off again attempt to ban assault weapons. More on that in a minute.

What people who aren't fucking gun nuts are asking for are:
* universal background checks
* no exemption from universal background checks for private sales
* limits on the number of bullets that can be loaded into a clip or magazine
* some ability for local law enforcement to take someone's guns away if they deem that person a threat to other's safety

And yes, I know there is a difference between a clip and a magazine, and no I can't tell you what it is without going and looking it up, and no the fact that I can't do that has not one fucking shred of relevance to the issues we are discussing. The issue is how many rounds a shooter can fire without having to reload the firearm, and gun advocates by god fucking well know it.

The above restrictions are roughly analogous to:
* You have to demonstrate that you can safely operate a car before we'll let you drive one legally
* No, you can't give your car to your 14 year old nephew and claim you're just "passing along your legacy"
* No, you can't sell your car to J random stranger without transferring the title so that the RMV knows who owns the car
* No, you can't put a freaking jet engine in your car and drive it on the street
* If you drive like a knucklehead, the cops can take your license away and you won't be able to drive anymore

The analogy is not exact, but I think everyone gets the drift. With the single exception of the attempt to ban assault weapons, gun control at the federal level amounts to (a) making sure knuckleheads and homicidal freaks don't get guns, and (b) making sure that in any actual firefight that might happen due to a failure of (a), a shooter can't just slaughter 30 or 50 or 100 people without taking a brief pause to reload.

That last point saved lives at Sandy Hook, and in fact enabled the Gifford shooter to be prevented from killing even more people. Gun advocates with say "yeah, but you can re-load a clip in 2.17 seconds", which is true when you make a YouTube video after practicing your clip-reloading skills all day so you can Own The Libs, but it's generally not true if you're a disgruntled 20 year old who wants to burn the fucking world down because life hasn't treated you fairly and you're trying to reload in the middle to the total freaking chaos you yourself have unleashed.

Two more topics:

Assault weapons. The issue with assault weapons is that it's hard to legally pin down exactly what one is. We all know pornography when we see it, and we all know an assault weapon when we see one. But the features that make an assault weapon an assault weapon show up in lots of other firearms. And, the firearms we think of when we say "assault weapon" - especially rifles based on the AR-15 - actually are useful for other purposes.

So, score one for gun advocates.

That said, I still call bullshit on this. Gun advocates say "libs just want to ban AR's because they look scary". Yes, that's likely so. And every fucking gun advocate who wants to stick it to the libs uses a fucking AR-15 to do it. Because they look scary. They look like a military rifle, because they are a military rifle. They are a firearm that was designed to let the shooter prevail in a firefight. They were designed as a gun for shooting other people, quickly accurately and efficiently.

They are fucking scary, which is why every T-shirt, bumper sticker, and whatever else folks cook up that has the freaking "Molon Labe" slogan on it, also has an AR-15 on it. It's why every knucklehead that wants to ram his or her "2nd Amendment rights" down everybody else's throat by open carrying a firearm to their local Burger King or grocery store, inevitably carries and AR-15.

It looks like a gun that is meant to kill people. Because that is what it is. Folks use it for other stuff, but that is what it was made for. You, gun advocates, know it, and that is why you shove it in all of our faces.

Second topic - second amendment.

The Second Amendment was written to preserve the institution of the militia. When the Constitution was being debated, people were wary of federal power, and did not want the federal government to be able to dominate local governments through military force.

At the time, there was no federal army, and people did not want one, at least not a standing army. There was a system of militias, in which most able-bodied adult men participated, which were under the control of local, state-level civil authority.

People wanted to keep that, and they wanted a promise that they would be able to keep that.

That is what the 2nd Amendment is about.

If you get your ass out of bed and go train with your local militia - a militia operating under the authority of your state government, in compliance with regulations promoted by Congress - you can claim a constitutional right to keep and carry a firearm.

If you don't do that, you can't.

And I've read quite a lot on the topic, most of it written by gun advocates and hobbyists. So if you want to go chapter and verse, fine with me. But what I've just laid out is the actual history of the 2nd.

It, like the 3rd A, has almost no applicability to the modern US. The institutions it refers to don't exist, the thing it was trying to prevent or counter - a standing federal army - is a given at this point in time.

If you're really concerned about the feds imposing their will through military power, Posse Comitatus is your friend. Guard it jealously.

"Don't blame guns" means don't try to take my guns away or do anything that will limit my ability to own or use them.

Rights incur responsibility. The rest of us cannot be expected to accept being fucking murdered as we go about our daily lives, just so you and folks like you can pursue your hobby.

Universal background checks. No exceptions for private sales.
Reasonable limits of clip sizes. The ability of local police to take someone's guns away if they think they present a danger to other people.

If gun advocates are, remotely, interested in not simply flipping the bird to the rest of us, those things are must-haves.

If you all just want to keep flipping the bird to the rest of us, do your thing. If it ends up biting you on the ass, that is on you.

Step 1: repeal the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.

Step 2: pass the Fair Compensation for Gun Victims Act, making gun sellers liable for homicides committed using guns they've sold.


Still can't post links, so there is one to an excellent diagram in the spam trap if anyone wants to rescue it....

GftNC - I can't release it but let me try to repost it:


Thank you Ugh.

aha! it's drag queens' fault.

Since the El Paso domestic terrorist is in custody, he should clearly be waterboarded and other 'enhanced interrogation' so that he gives up his fellow-travelers, co-conspirators, and those who radicalized him.

Then waterboard them too, until the entire terrorist sect is rolled up.

FOX, the NRA, and Trump would be good places to start.

Since I cannot post the link, I have copied and pasted Krugman's June 13th 2019 on Elizabeth Warren in the NYT. I must say, it doesn't look like a shivving to me....

Not long ago, political pundits were writing off Elizabeth Warren’s political chances, but recent polling makes her an increasingly plausible contender, and her comeback has been getting her a sudden wave of favorable media coverage.

Will she actually be the Democratic nominee? If so, will she win? I have absolutely no idea. Nor does anyone else.

But the political strategy powering her comeback is interesting. And I think many observers are missing a key reason her strategy seems to be working — namely, that her agenda is radical in content and implications, but well grounded in evidence and serious scholarship.

Normally, would-be presidential nominees campaign on some combination of personal narrative and soaring rhetoric promoting broad themes: “I’m a war hero/symbol of the American dream/longtime challenger of the Establishment, and as president I’ll bring us together/drain the swamp/fight the power.”

Warren, by contrast, has been rolling out substantive, detailed policy proposals — many, many substantive, detailed policy proposals. Traditional punditry says that this should be a turnoff, that voters’ eyes will just glaze over at the proliferation of white papers.

But Warren has managed to turn relentless wonkery into a defining aspect of her political persona. Supporters show up at her rallies wearing T-shirts that proclaim “Warren has a plan for that!” And she is, by all accounts, managing to make earnest policy discussion a way to connect with her audiences.

In a way, the closest parallel to the Warren phenomenon — although it’s one I hate to draw — was the temporary rise of Paul Ryan, former speaker of the House (remember him?). Like Warren, Ryan built himself up by cultivating an image as a smart policy wonk.

But even aside from the fact that Ryan’s basic agenda was to take from the poor and give to the rich, he was a phony, whose proposals didn’t add up and didn’t address real problems. Warren, by contrast, is the real deal. You don’t have to support the specifics of her plans to realize that they’re the product of hard thinking, drawing on the work of respected economic researchers.

In that case, however, why haven’t other presidential contenders been rolling out comparable plans? The answer, I’d suggest, is that Warren — herself a significant policy scholar — understood from the beginning something that other candidates are only beginning to grasp: The difference between being serious and being Serious.

What I mean by being Serious is buying into inside-the-Beltway conventional wisdom — the kind of conventional wisdom that in 2011, with unemployment still catastrophically high and interest rates at historic lows, created an elite consensus that we should stop worrying about jobs and focus on … entitlement reform. What I mean by being serious is paying attention to actual evidence on the effects of economic and social programs.

What Warren gets is that serious analysis is a lot more favorable to a progressive agenda than Serious conventional wisdom, which is obsessed with keeping taxes low and restraining spending. Leading experts on the economics of taxation favor substantial increases in tax rates on high incomes and wealth. Top economists studying social spending argue that there are huge benefits to higher spending on early child care.

As a result, Warren has been able to lay out plans that are very progressive but also well grounded in evidence and analysis.

Do her rivals share her understanding that progressivism and solid intellectual foundations can go hand in hand? In the past, at least, Joe Biden was worryingly Serious; he was deeply involved in the Obama administration’s fortunately unsuccessful attempt to negotiate a budget Grand Bargain that would have slashed Social Security and Medicare, reflecting the Beltway’s obsession with entitlement cuts. It’s not yet clear whether he has moved on.

Bernie Sanders, by contrast, has never bought into the Beltway consensus, and he is clearly committed to a very ambitious agenda. But his policy specifics remain oddly vague. Most notably, we still have very little idea how he would pay for Medicare for All.

My guess is that this is in part because Sanders sees himself as being in a war with the Establishment very broadly defined. As a result, his policy team, such as it is, consists of people who devote a lot of energy to attacking mainstream policy research, leaving them unable and/or unwilling to incorporate its findings into specific policy proposals.

Now, none of this means that Warren will be the nominee. Many Democratic voters clearly prefer Biden’s affable conventionality, and many others share Sanders’s tear-the-whole-thing-down instincts. All we really know is that there turns out to be a significant constituency most pundits probably didn’t even realize was there: voters who want a significant policy move to the left, but also want a candidate who really seems to have thought things through.

We don’t yet know whether this constituency is big enough to be decisive in the Democratic primaries. But if it is, Warren has a plan for that.

wrs, as always. Also Pro Bono.

Can we add a requirement that gun owners have to buy liability insurance, just like car owners?

And it has to come with ownership, not use, i.e. you buy it when you buy the gun. (With a car, you can have one sitting back behind the barn that you never drive, and if you don't drive it, you don't have to insure it.)

To reinforce Russell's commentary on the AR-15, Eugene Stoner would like a posthumous word:


Stoner owned the means of production, but not the product.

I have little use for Beto O'Rourke, but he doesn't let his good looks get in the way of telling the press corps what they are:


The press corps would like nothing more than to convince law enforcement to cease and desist from killing mass shooters at the scene, at least until they can mic the guy up and get him on the air in a panel discussion setting on a Sunday morning, say, with his heavily bandaged and sutured survivor victims and give both sides a chance to air their points of view, since both sides do it, whatever "it" is, and all points of view having validity in a free, democratic society.

The moderator could then cut away to mental illness carrier and expert Dana Loesch for her balanced view of the proceedings.

"Well, Gene", Loesch will intone in that hypnotic, menacing, gun sell-side YouTube attitude she has perfected, "while it's clear that despite my agreement with the shooter politically in some ways, he has gone over the line with his actions and should have his head examined, I must say that the hysterical reactions of the victims on the other side of this panel make me wonder who the crazy ones are."

"Look, yes, Eugene Stoner didn't own an AR-15, despite inventing the weapon and using the full socialist powers of the federal government to get it into the hands of our patriotic, God-fearing fighting men and women as they defend this country, but he did own a set of butter knives and think of the damage those implements could have caused to friend or foe alike. My God, he left them within the reach of his kids too. Put a butter knife in the hands of a drag queen and what do you have? I'll tell you what, besides yet one more reason why fag-baiter Rod Dreher will vote for Donald Trump: the paramount mortal threat to our American way of life and, by the way, a hoarder of eye liner as well, which raises my cost of living.

Moderator: Thank you, Dana. You are the voice of reason in a sea of diluted politically correct puke.

At this point, two burly guys in white suits wrestle Loesch into a straight jacket while jamming a tongue depressor between her top and and bottom teeth, and drag her off camera for her hourly medication regime.

Moderator: "Next up after our commercial break, we'll have combat veteran and Marine Lieutenant Colonel Joffrey Lambastard on to explain why he carries the fully combat-capable AR-15 assault rifle into war, because that's the sole purpose for which it was designed, to kill the enemy, but not so fast, we'll also ask why he carries that butter knife on his belt as well. The reason may shock you! Stay with us.

Off camera, you can hear Lieutenant Colonel Lambastard give a snort of derisive laughter and "well, I carry the butter knife for its intended purpose just in case some gook wog towelhead on the other side asks me to butter his toast."

wrs, as always. Also Pro Bono.

Agreed. Also, what Janie said in her 10.37 about liability insurance.

Gunrunner Governor and fetus-killer by other means Governor Mike Dewine of Ohio:


We'll soon, and obviously, have mass shooting murders AT the vigils for mass-shooting victims.

Tax-cutting conservative vermin cucks like Dewine will plead during the deluge of vigil gunfire, bleating into the microphone: "As God is my sheep-herder and Beyond Human Sacrifice lamb chop server, it's too soon to start shooting dozens of human beings AGAIN before we've had a chance to do nothing about yesterday's mass shootings and call our brokers to load up on the shares of gun manufacturers."

one of these days, Loesch is going to get caught on camera with her black wings unfurled and teeth bared as she growls the humanly-unpronounceable name of her unholy master - right before she bites the head off of a Honduran who has been procured for her meal.

What russell said (at 8:49).

As a note, if you want to "own the gun nuts" (because why shouldn't everybody get to play?), ask one what he thinks is meant by "a well regulated militia". In my experience, at least 1/3 (and probably more like 2/3) don't even know that's in the 2nd Amendment. And those that do mostly either think it's just a distraction, or agrue that it's a mandate to set up their own, private, militia -- complete with anti-armor and anti-aircaft weapons. They're called "gun nuts" for good reason.

Dang! That was 8:45 of course.

Angelina Englisbee

Ms. Englisbee, 86, who was known as Angie, was talking on the phone with one of her sons just before 10:30 a.m. on Saturday morning, when she told him that she had to hang up because she was in the checkout line at Walmart.

That was the last the family heard from her, according to her granddaughter, Mia Peake, 16.

Mia said the family learned on Sunday evening that Ms. Englisbee was among the victims of the shooting. When the news came, Mia and her mother were in the car, driving to El Paso from their home in New Mexico.

“My mom could not stop crying, and I remember thinking, I can’t cry until we get there, I can’t cry until we stop,” Mia said.

Ms. Englisbee had seven children and a son who died in infancy, Mia said. Her husband died of a heart attack, leaving her to raise the children on her own.

Mia said her grandmother had loved watching sports and “General Hospital.”

“She was a very strong person, very blunt,” she said.

The family gathered on Sunday at her grandmother’s house. Mia said they were thinking of going on Monday to see a video of the shooting, to find out exactly what happened to Ms. Englisbee.

“It feels like hell — it doesn’t feel real,” Mia said.

Insane person found sleeping in the White House given access to microphone for public statement while accompanied by the Vice President of Absolute Biblically-Revealed Certainty On All Matters, who performs a perfect 10 leap of faith, the facts being short on believability, into a vat of predigested dog shit:


Gun and ammo stocks are up on the day in a display of what conservative economists would call "perverse incentives" if instead of weaponry, the companies were providing food stamps or lowering the price of insulin against the wishes of shareholders' interests.

Insane person wishes good will to all and then raises tariffs on the yellow peril chop suey chinks.


Warren has been able to lay out plans that are very progressive but also well grounded in evidence and analysis.

I'm with GFTNC here, I'm not seeing a shiv. On the contrary, this sounds like a mild rave, to me.

The only thing I'd change in Krugman's statement here would be to replace "but also" with "because they are".


Warren has been able to lay out plans that are very progressive but also well grounded in evidence and analysis.

I'm with GFTNC here, I'm not seeing a shiv. On the contrary, this sounds like a mild rave, to me.

The only thing I'd change in Krugman's statement here would be to replace "but also" with "because they are".

via BJ.

Kids, if any kids are reading this, if you have a classmate who keeps a hit list to plan for future assassinations, and/or a rape list of girls he wants to assault, find an adult you trust and tell them about it.

That person needs help, and is unlikely to seek it out for themselves. Or, more accurately, that person is screaming to the world that they need help, but they have no idea how to get help. Help them. Find an adult you trust and tell them what you know.

If you know such a person and you know they have a firearm, or access to a firearm, follow up with a call to your local police. They'll want to know about it, if they have a brain in their heads.

This has been a public service announcement courtesy of ObWi.

Crazy world we're living in.

From the KTLA piece:

The discovery of the hit list early in 2012 sparked a police investigation, and roughly one third of Bellbrook students skipped school out of fear, according to an article in the Dayton Daily News.

Plus, the cops took the rape list thing seriously enough to call the kids that were on it to give them a heads up.

A public service safety suggestion:

If someone is deemed dangerous enough to prompt a police investigation and for the cops to reach out to folks so they know that they need to watch out for that person, THAT PERSON SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BUY A FIREARM.

Can I get a freaking amen?

Insane, but imbued with future sight person in White House reveals Toledo as the next location for planned right wing mass shootings.


White House staffers, gobsmack themselves and tell the press without attribution: "Does he have to give away all of our murderous plans for America like that?"

Journalist, to be fair to both sides, points out that Biden is a few hearts short of a heart attack too.

In great news for conservative religious nuts who
want birth control banned but are running out of places to have sex on account of the hypocrisy police, this:


White House orders a dozen self-driving presidential limousines on the news.

Falwell Jr. hitches a ride with p to check out the new technology.

Rod Dreher condemns self-driving vehicles, capitalism, and electricity in general because now LGBTs are now hands-free woke and on wheels.

Drive by killers endorse the technology so they can keep both hands on their weapons while firing, but still avoid running over innocent pedestrians.

Only took one (1) death to spur action. Guess there isn't a lawn dart lobby.

russell, 12:52

When they outlaw lawn darts, outlaws will just switch to badminton and croquet.

The thing about the kid killed by a lawn dart is they actually did have to pry his lawn dart from his cold dead hands.

can we not have Joe Biden ?

Can I get a freaking amen?

Not from the guys who insist that being on the terrorist watch list is no reason to be banned from having and getting firearms because
a) this would warn them that they are on the list
b) the tyrannical beings with the jack-boots will put innocent people on the list to have a pretense to take their guns.

Biden remains, out of all the current candidates, the single strongest candidate for the 2000 presidential elections.

When (some) states have decided that it's OK to sell firearms to the legally blind, what exactly do you think will be a bridge too far?

"failing the paper-bag test". Oh yeah, forgot that one.




I think this Krugman- Warren shiv issue is in the wrong thread—I can’t find where I started it.

Anyway, yes, Krugman did like Warren. Then she and Sanders were on the same side in the last debate.

Here is the shiv—


Actually scroll up a bit.


But sorry about the thread confusion.


Here is the shiv—

Thanks Donald, much appreciated!

Agreed that choosing single payer as the hill to die on is, at this point in time, like running while chained to an anchor.

I have nothing against the idea on principle, I also think we're not there. And may never be there. And if folks get to go to the doctor some other way, that's fine.

And if I lived in Toledo, I'd probably stay indoors and out of sight for a day or two. Just because people are that crazy.

JDT @ 03:29...yup. Take them away. Take all the guns away. If you don't want to give them up, go away with them.

Being pro-gun is simply another form of anti-vaxxerism...an irrational assault on public health.

I shall have no truck with either anti-vaxxers or gun lunatics. My position on guns is uncompromising: They need to go.

If you don't like that, just shoot me.

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