I'm in Charleston and it's effing hot (Open Thread)

by Ugh

It's SCOTUS Armageddon this week, where we learn if we can keep it.  Good on ya', CJ Roberts (probably the incorrect turn of phrase).

USWNT won today, although likely didn't deserve it.  Nevertheless, woo!

I watched Brightburn and it needs a sequel (in fact the concurrent credits scenes are some of the most compelling of the movie).

Did I mention it was hot in SC?  A perfect time for dinner on the USS Yorktown with no AC...."feels like" 103 degrees.

Anyway, I've been neglecting my duties here for a variety of reasons, so, open thread............................

Comments

[wj]

Perhaps the correct name for "Old Testament Christianity" (for all that many of them would be horrified) should be "alternatively reformed Judiasm -- Joshua (Jesus) named, but his actual teachings ignored". But admittedly on the long side for a name. (See what happened to the name of "The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints" AKA Mormons)

[russell]

No. She is too competent

SMH, but so be it.

I have to harp once again on the sad fact that Pence has no less a right to define what a "good Christian" is than Buttigieg does.

It just always strikes me that claiming the mantle of one religious tradition or another in the context of public policy is asking for trouble.

It just raises the bar so very, very high.

It's hard enough just keeping the lights on. Establishing virtue and goodness and righteousness and whatever else the desiderata of your own spiritual path and tradition are, through the mechanisms of the sausage factory of law and policy, just seems like a reach.

A "Christian nation", for example. Many are called, few chosen. Narrow the gate. Like squeezing a camel through the eye of a needle.

These are challenging words. You gonna fit 300+ million people through the eye of a needle?

My kingdom is not of this world, said Jesus. If you say you believe Jesus, maybe believe that.

Just keep the damned wheels on, please. Practical solutions to practical problems, thank you very much. We'll all see to our own souls, as needed.

[Marty]

Well russell, you can be competent at accomplishing things I disagree with. She's competent not right.

[russell]

Well russell, you can be competent at accomplishing things I disagree with.

Yes, I understood what you were saying. Nonetheless, SMH.

Right / wrong, all a matter of perspective.

I find myself asking how I would vote were I presented with the equivalent of a (D) version of Trump, versus a competent and principled (R). By "principled" I mean ethical.

What would that look like? Maybe something like Rod Blagojevich vs Justin Amash? Blagojevich, despite his best efforts, doesn't quite rise to Trump levels of corruption, but it's all I could come up with.

To be honest, I don't know how I would vote. Probably either sit it out, or write somebody in.

So, no judgement from me on your position on Harris. Just SMH at the weirdness of it all.

[wj]

What would that look like? Maybe something like Rod Blagojevich vs Justin Amash?

Why not go with the obvious and slot in Trump as the "(D) version of Trump"? He was, after all, nominally a Democrat for a lot of years. I, for one, would be glad to give him back. (Not that I expect he could win a Democratic primary. But then, I didn't think he could win a Republican primary either, so....)

[CharlesWT]

Maybe something like Rod Blagojevich vs Justin Amash?

There's a change Amash might run as the LP candidate. That might make things even more interesting.

[cleek]

Yglesias Tweeth:

This is impolite to mention, but one thing about anti-Trump conservative professional political pundits (as opposed to rank and file ex-Republicans) is their job essentially *requires* them to be perpetually saying Democrats are failing to win them over.

[bobbyp]

Although she could turn out to be unlikable enough to be a one term President.

LOL! If "likability" is the deciding variable regarding the 2020 election, then the Dems should just nominate a ham sandwich and rest easy.

[Girl from the North Country]

I suppose there's a faint chance that the ham sandwich might know that bussing is more than "a primary method of getting people to schools", and that when he attacked western liberalism Putin didn't mean this "I guess if you look at what’s happening in Los Angeles, where it’s so sad to look, and what’s happening in San Francisco and a couple of other cities, which are run by an extraordinary group of liberal people, I don’t know what they’re thinking.”

As for Marty's speculation that Harris might be unlikeable enough to be a one-term President (and presumably therefore limited in how many of Marty's disapproved-of policies she might have time to enact), unfortunately we are seeing how much damage can be done in even two and a half years. The consensus seems to be that the State Department could take 20-30 years to recover in terms of in-depth knowledge and expertise alone, and I shudder to think about the Department of Energy as recounted in that Michael Lewis piece we read months ago. And that's only two ministries...

Tony P: excellent Spooner-related quip!

[bobbyp]

More here on the theme that Democrats can only win if the do what David Brooks Marty tells them to do.

[Tony P.]

According to people we are NOT supposed to laugh at, Democrats need to be:
o Likeable
o Civil
o Polite
o Modest
o Moderate
o Chaste
o Not-crooks
OR ELSE THE "WHITE WORKING CLASS" WILL RE-ELECT HE, TRUMP

Wondering what McTX, Slarti, Seb, and bc make of that,

--TP

[JanieM]

TP made me laugh out loud. Then bobbyp's Wonkette link made me laugh out loud. This is good, because otherwise I would be crying in my beer...tea...whatever.

From David Brooks, as quoted at bobbyp's link: Finally, Democrats aren't making the most compelling moral case against Donald Trump... the rest of the moral case against Trump means hitting him from the right as well as the left.

Why in the name of all the living and dead deities in this and all the other universes should Democrats be making the case "from the right"? Why isn't that preening peabrain David Brooks sh!tting all over the Republican party -- you know, the party of the right -- for not only not doing it, but standing behind Clickbait no matter what? And while he's at it, why don't he and all the other R-ish pundits STFU about what the Democrats should be doing? [Or, what TP said at 11:39. You could add "articulate" to the list too. ;-)]

It doesn't even make any sense. And yet Brooks, along with the most snotty, undeservedly self-regarding man on the planet, Ross Douthat, forms part of the stable of "thought leaders" for the supposed paper of record in this long- and still-lost country of ours.

Back to washing dishes, it's so much more calming to the spirit.

[John D. Thullen]

"The highest-ranking North Korean defector in decades told me Kim Jong UN likes President Trump because he’s not “moral,” and doesn't judge."All previous US presidents so far have been very moral and they paid great attention on the America’s moral image," he said of Trump."

Finally, a President who calls bullshit on fucking America's bogus, 250-year fake news and non-exceptional moral image and aligns us with the worst vermin in the world, abroad, and right here at home, tens of millions of them.

If only Marty and the Democratic candidates alike would stop with the morals, ethics, and high-toned sentimental happy talk and realize that brutality, killing, and treating our lesser Others with contempt, hatred, violence, discrimination, pussy-grabbing, and close-quarters anti-aircraft fire are the paths to low righteousness and low-handicap home course golf trophies.

Kim Jong, Brooks, Douthat, Dreher, Buchanan all agree: Hate the thug, love his winning.

Fuck all Republicans and conservatives.

Butcher and kill the America they have made their malign toilet.

[wj]

Democrats need to be:
o Likeable
o Civil
o Polite
o Modest
o Moderate
o Chaste
o Not-crooks

Well that would certainly be NICE in politicians of any party. But personally I'd settle for

• Competent
• More dedicated to country than party (or self)

Followed by moderate, but if I can get the first two I'll take as the big step forward it is -- at least on the national level.

Looking at the Democratic candidates, most of them meet those two requirements. Other than maybe Bernie, they also meet the third. Of course, the GOP has set as the bar pretty low -- I can't say I'm a fan of several of them. But . . . baby steps: still worth taking.

[wj]

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap190630.html

A little something to watch, the next time you're reading Marooned off Vesta

[John D. Thullen]

Kim Jung has agreed to p's demand that in order to forestall the nuclear annihilation of the Korean peninsula by the United States under p, Kim will launch nuclear warheads on U.S. targets IF a Democrat wins the Presidency in 2020.

As part of the agreement, Kim, with Putin's affirmative nod, will delay the attacks on the U.S. while p refuses to vacate the Presidency in the bloody aftermath of the 2020 election and holds up with his vermin in Mar-a-Lago for months contesting his loss judicially and with domestic violence from his base from coast to coast.

Once the new Democratic President, after exhausting all fruitless negotiation with p's fascist coup camp, finally orders a WACO-style assault on Mar-a-Lago, seriously juked up to include tactical nuclear weapons, killing every republican and conservative in and around the building, Kim has his order to launch his weapons on California and liberal points East and will, for once in his life, keep his loyal promise to a now dead republican p.

Win.

and Win.

[Marty]

What Marty thinks Democrats should do is whatever the hell they want. I dont care if they have any of the qualities on the list, I take my likable comment back. It was an observation not a desire.

[CharlesWT]

• Competent
• More dedicated to country than party (or self)

Followed by moderate, but if I can get the first two I'll take as the big step forward it is -- at least on the national level.

I think you're expecting too much from politicians. Especially at the national level where public choice theory kicks in hard. Skeptic or cynic, I suspicious even of the handful of nation-level politicians I have some regard for. Usually, the best you can hope for is that their self-interest somewhat meshes with that of their constituents. Never mind the rest of the country.

[cleek]

Usually, the best you can hope for is that their self-interest somewhat meshes with that of their constituents.

humanity - you're soaking in it.

[wj]

the best you can hope for is that their self-interest somewhat meshes with that of their constituents. Never mind the rest of the country.

Certainly if you keep your expectations low enough you can guarantee you will never get anything better.

Which I suppose, for a dedicated libertarian, is part of the point. After all, it's easier to consider all government bad you manage to have scumbags in charge.

[CharlesWT]

Scumbags may be preferable to those who self-righteously proclaim that they're screwing with your life for your own good.

[cleek]

those who self-righteously proclaim that they're screwing with your life for your own good

that's a category that includes anyone who has to make a decision which affects anyone else, including libertarians.

[John D. Thullen]

"Scumbags may be preferable to those who self-righteously proclaim that they're screwing with your life for your own good."

Sonny Barger of the Hell's Angels couldn't have summed up the Libertarian philosophy of screwing any better.

[Nigel]

What Marty think Democrats should do is, with all respect, irrelevant.

[russell]

to be honest, if I read Marty right, he agrees, and is fine with it.

[russell]

I suspicious even of the handful of nation-level politicians I have some regard for.

Oddly enough, this is more or less my point of view as well.

I don't expect unusual virtue from politicians, just a basic level of ethical responsibility. I expect them to remember they work for the public, not themselves. I don't expect them to be saints.

That said, I'll take somebody who oversteps out of a desire to do something constructive over somebody who is plainly and simply out for themselves any day of the week.

Plus, sometimes when the dreaded state "screws with my life", it's to my advantage, and not a bad thing.

Amazingly enough, sometimes people who have actually studied an issue know more about it than I do.

Different strokes.

[Nigel]

You’re right, russell. Apologies to Marty.

The point stands, though - Marty does not represent the swing vote.

[JanieM]

Scumbags may be preferable to those who self-righteously proclaim that they're screwing with your life for your own good.

I suppose that could be true if you like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The sanctimony of some of the people whose policy preferences I generally agree with drives me crazy. I have, when it comes right down to it, lost friendships when the steady stream of sanctimony has become too indigestible.

But in terms of how we govern ourselves, the scumbags are screwing with my life for their good and not mine, by definition. Policies I like accompanied by a sauce of sanctimony -- that I can live with.

Of course, sanctimony isn't a monopoly of one side. A certain Pence comes to mind, but the list is endless.

We exist in a multifarious universe. That makes us subject to other people (and other beings and circumstances) screwing with our lives. Since screwing with each other's lives is a fundamental condition of existence, and since sanctimony comes in all flavors, I prefer to ignore it as a factor in deciding who gets my vote. At least the sanctimonious, unlike the scumbags, are familiar with the concept of the general welfare, even if they get it wrong sometimes.

[wj]

those who self-righteously proclaim that they're screwing with your life for your own good.

Let's see if I've got this straight. The latter include (if one is a libertarian) anyone who wants the government to do pretty much anything. And, if one isn't, the libertarians who don't want the government to do things that the rest of us think it should do.

Self-righteousness isn't a monopoly of either philosophy. Acting (or refusing to act) for others' good, without reference to their [insert favorite pejorative] views, isn't a monopoly either.

[Tony P.]

Nigel: Marty does not represent the swing vote.

McTX, Seb, Slarti, and bc might be swingers, but they haven't said so, yet.

What happened to those guys, anyhow? Did they all go out and get a life suddenly?

--TP

[sapient]

Did they all go out and get a life suddenly?

Heat? Kitchen?

[Nigel]

In the context of the Democratic nomination battle, this made interesstijg reading:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/07/work-peak-professional-decline/590650/

The phrase elder statesman came about for a reason.

(Though I don’t utterly reject the idea that Biden might still be the answer to beating Trump.)

[wj]

I have a theory I have been fiddling with. I think a lot of men** get accustomed to having their days structured. For all they may have complained about the daily grind, work gave them that structure. And when they retire . . . they find it hard to cope.

Obviously some find (expand) hobbies or otherwise develop ways to deal. And things to, bluntly, give them something to do with all that time. But others? Depression, inertia, and a downhill spiral.

Women avoid that, I suggest, because essentially they don't retire. Meals still have to be cooked, the house cleaned, etc. As a result, they have fewer problems as they pass the (nominal) retirement age. And therefore end up, on average, living longer.

In short, it's not genetics, or gender per se. It's the social conventions we still have about who does what around the house.

** Clearly this means those with steady jobs, not those who do consulting and such. Especially if they stay with a single employer for extended periods of time.

[Nigel]

The history and politics of busing is clearly complex and contentious, but I found this article offered an interesting perspective on Harris' experience (with relatives in the Bay Area, I'm not unaware of how contentious the issue still was there, in the early seventies):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/kamala-harris-and-busing-debate/593047/
Berkeley’s elementary school desegregation plan started in September 1968, with over one-third of the district’s 9,000 students riding buses. Unlike many cities that placed the burden of busing on black students, Berkeley implemented a two-way busing plan that involved black, white, Asian American, and Mexican American students. The plan quickly changed the racial demographics of the city’s schools. Thousand Oaks Elementary was 95 percent white and 3 percent black in 1963. When Harris started kindergarten in 1969, the Thousand Oaks was 53 percent white and 40 percent black, and in no elementary school in Berkeley did any racial group comprise more than 60 percent of the students....

[John D. Thullen]

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-took-tucker-carlson-not-bolton-north-korea-2

Bolton was sent to Mongolia.

Tucker Carlson said “On the other hand, you’ve got to be honest about what it means to lead a country. It means killing people.”

Democrats should be honest about what it's going take to run America in order to solve the national security problem of the conservative movement and to neutralize America's internal rightwing enemies who have been living off it's store of now exhausted of good will fat since the Founding.

Glad to see a preppy American white supremacist is so clear-eyed about his fucking future.

It's best not to be too politically correct about what it takes.

They mean to kill US when the time is ripe.

TUCKERrrrrrrrrr:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo8CrY_ZfFk

[John D. Thullen]

My models for my posts here were once the ravings of the front-pagers and comment sections of Redstate and all points right.

Now I find TAC a rich potting soil for my bullshit, which frankly, I'm coming around to believing my own self.

That 7:40am of mine above is a bolus of victimized rationalization cobbled together after reading this Dreher piece and the comment section ...... and trying it on for size...... again ...

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/antifa-beats-up-andy-ngo-portland/

.....and which, first of all, from all indications from a few hardy souls in the comment section, is substantially misleading regarding the "news" therein imparted and second, managed to smear/threaten the entire political spectrum to the left of Ted Cruz with the sorry-assed criminal and pathetic actions of the Antifa bowel movement, which is so cowardly (masked? Bah!) as to attack innocents instead of the real fucking enemy power centers of this country head-on with utter ruthlessness, and which given a mere week to run the punked-up Antifa, I will transform into a much more effective and dangerously savage revolutionary force from the Left to counter the paramilitary republican party and conservative movement face to face in it homes and workplaces, and governments.

Everything is satire until it's not, and p/McConnell have given the signal that the laugh track has run out.

Meanwhile, Dems, spread out a little and take the Senate.

The White House is not a dormitory for dozens of Presidential aspirants.

[cleek]

who needs immigrants when we have ... prisoners ?!

[John D. Thullen]

Say you are a good 15 seconds into a Boeing 737 MAX power dive, oxygen masks dangling, seat back tray table secured, seat belts fastened, head between your knees, maybe an alcoholic beverage too sloshing over its rim as you try to catch the spillage with your mouth .. waste not, want not ... the pilot standing on foot pedals controlling the fucker, and the co-pilot and plus two flight attendants mustered to the cabin to assist muscling the crank on the contraption that is somehow connected to the rudder and you're maybe a couple of minutes from the plane and its "consumers" being turned into a pink-tinged confetti on impact ....

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-204657048.html

... are you thinking, welp, at least, my Boeing stock won't be too awfully savaged in the ensuing selloff, I mean how much can 256 lives be worth and discounted in the all-seeing, all-knowing fucking financial markets, and besides more profit flowed to the hallowed bottom line thanks to the those $9 dollar coders?

Are you thinking, I wonder if it's too late to call Elizabeth Warren to knock some conservative Mulvanay no-regulator heads together?

See, we imprison and in some cases execute all of the wrong murderers in this dumb Friedman/Kudlow world created for us without our permission.

If only pro bono attorneys for the underprivileged stuck in the system for their transgressions would merely plead that their clients were making a "simple business decision" after weighing the input and outputs" as they were fucking up and setting their sites on shareholder rights rather than troubling themselves with the petty risks of mass death.

Meanwhile, by my clock, the markets open in about 40 minutes, and Boeing stock will be up on the opening regardless of ANYTHING except p's latest tweet, and I the socialist capitalist must pay attention to my hard-earned dollars, so you are on your own for now, and it's OK to be relieved about that.

But we will fuck the fuckers in this country.

[John D. Thullen]

Gosh, I hope Manafort doesn't get a hand mangled in the thresher on the corporate family farm. Those things can eat a guy up iffn he ain't careful.

Weren't we told once the darky immigrants were driven from gainful employment harvesting our drops, that honest outta work real darky Americans could get off the dole and earn a steady wage by the sweat of their brow.

But no, forced labor, in this case prisoners, was always the fucking idea, though if a prisoner volunteers his labor, say some cool hand luke, more power to him, but no, it's gotta shackled forced labor.

You'd think with the poor family farm relieved of estate taxes and other gummint encumbrances that they'd be able to spare a working man and woman a dime now and then.

Right, assholes? Hanh, liars?

Kill the fuckers in this country.

[John D. Thullen]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canadian-artist-dumped-after-his-pulitzer-prize-worthy-cartoon-of-trump-golfing-next-to-dead-migrants-goes-viral-2019-06-30

[JanieM]

Prisoners as, in effect, slave labor for capitalists.

We have come full circle.

[hairshirthedonist]

Indentured servants, Janie. Baby steps.

[wj]

who needs immigrants when we have ... prisoners ?!

Yup, the return of the chain gang.

[cleek]

"convict leasing"

[bobbyp]

Child Labor = FREEDOM!

(This message brought to you by the Gary Johnson for President Campaign)

[sapient]

This has been their plan all along.

[wj]

Well that would certainly be NICE in politicians of any party. But personally I'd settle for

• Competent
• More dedicated to country than party (or self)

Followed by moderate, but if I can get the first two I'll take as the big step forward it is

Just to take (sort of) the other side of my own argument -- because why not?

This from a conservative commenter:

...about 90 percent of the Republican Party (a shrunken party, I would estimate) remains in the Trump cult. If the Mueller report didn’t shake the GOP’s faith in Trump, a Democratic nominee’s admirable policy restraint isn’t going to do it.

So, much as I might prefer moderation, there something to be said for the thesis that it won't be critical this next time. Sigh.

[Girl from the North Country]

What happened to those guys, anyhow? Did they all go out and get a life suddenly?

Where McK was concerned, it coincided with the Kavanaugh hearings. I guess he decided that discretion was the better part of valour, given the new make-up of the Court.

Speaking of which, the first two verses of a poem from JDT's favourite period and location - (I particularly like Valerie fondles lovers/ like a mousetrap fondles mice:

Discretion by Roger McGough

Discretion is the better part of Valerie
(though all of her is nice)
lips as warm as strawberries
eyes as cold as ice
the very best of everything
only will suffice
not for her potatoes
and puddings made of rice

Not for her potatoes
and puddings made of rice
she takes carbohydrates
like God takes advice
a surfeit of ambition
is her particular vice
Valerie fondles lovers
like a mousetrap fondles mice

[JanieM]

about 90 percent of the Republican Party (a shrunken party, I would estimate)

I've seen this "estimate" a bunch of times, so not long ago I tried to find some hard numbers. I didn't have a lot of luck, but this suggests that the news of the R party's shrunken state is largely wishful thinking.

I know, it's Gallup. But still. And there's a long way to go until Nov 2020. By then Clickbait will probably have installed his Barbie-spawn into the Constitution as his successor. In his own mind, anyhow.....

[John D. Thullen]

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/arthurlaffer-economist-medaloffreedom/2019/06/30/id/922693/

and, compliments of cleek:

http://ok-cleek.com/blogs/?p=29144

They will take it all. Every American institution fucked.

Violence. Savage and unending.

[John D. Thullen]

Great piece GFTNC! Thanks. I went out and bought a book of those poets after our last go-round about them.

Some Liverpudlian sky writing by word of mouth back at you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA9TTVwghNQ

By the way, saw "Yesterday" yesterday, the Beatle-premised movie. Quite good, but one scene absolutely slayed me ..... I can't give it away.

[Girl from the North Country]

God JDT, it's years (decades even) since I saw that! Talk about a rave from the grave...

Yes, I've been considering going to Yesterday, and probably will do. Will check back with you (in code) if so, to see if the same scene has that effect on me.

[Tony P.]

Last night I watched the PBS documentary on the Tienanmen uprising and its ultimate suppression by the Chinese "People's Army" 30 years ago. This morning, I see a repeat shaping up in Hong Kong.

In 1989, Poppy Bush (that Nice Polite Republican) sided with Deng Xiaoping, the butcher of Tienanmen. Last week He, Trump (not nice, not polite, but definitely Republican) all but hugged and kissed Mohamed bin Salman, the butcher of Adnan Kashoggi and thousands of Yemenis. Business, don't you know.

"Republican" has not meant "pro republic" since at least the Nixon administration. If He, Trump is measurably worse than Poppy Bush, it's because He overtly thinks of Himself as a ruler rather than a leader. "Overtly" is the operative distinction there.

Decent Republicans (hi, wj) hope that Democrats can save the US from the current dictator-loving so-called-president, and offer well-meaning advice on how to do it. That's nice. In return, I offer some well-meaning advice to decent Republicans:

Get 3 or 4 of your Republican friends together and ask them to commit to voting voting for He, Trump's Democratic opponent in 2020. See how far you get.

--TP

[wj]

Get 3 or 4 of your Republican friends together

Ya know, I tried to figure out what political party my friends belong to. Out of the whole group, I think I know the party of . . . 2. (Plus my wife, who I believe is unaligned.) On the other hand, the number who have anything but contempt for Trump: zero. Probability that any of them would vote for him: zip.

Of course, that may be mostly about the kind of people I voluntarily spend time with....

[John D. Thullen]

Fuck convincing republicans of anything . We're fucking done.

If this happens:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/7/1/1868667/-Trump-demands-tanks-on-the-Mall-as-part-of-his-quest-to-make-the-Fourth-of-July-all-about-himself

...... run conservatives off your property and business at gunpoint.

Tanks on the fucking Washington Mall.

Nuke.

[McKinneyTexas]

What happened to those guys, anyhow? Did they all go out and get a life suddenly?

Sort of. My new gig since June 1: www.mckinneytaylor.com

Still lurk here a bit.

[John D. Thullen]

Return to barracks, boys, or there will be blood.

If the Generals cave to p on this, then every Democratic candidate for President and Speaker Pelosi should call for their court martial and the candidates should promise to do just that after this anti-American vermin gummint is overthrown.

[John D. Thullen]

I would like to see a flyover of Russian Sukhoi fighter jets in formation over the Mall on July 4th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2p3NLcyL-Y

They can provide air cover for the cocksucker in chief when the Mall goes up in flames.

[wj]

McKinney, best of luck with the new endeavour. (Though it looks like you're well set up for success.)

[bobbyp]

Still lurk here a bit.

Your site left out the 5th "R" - Republican. :)

[Girl from the North Country]

Well, well, McKinney. What a fascinating website that is, particularly the "Changing and Challenging Times" section. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to see some of the effects of these changing and challenging times in practice, so to speak.

[Tony P.]

wj: I tried to figure out what political party my friends belong to. Out of the whole group, I think I know the party of . . . 2. (Plus my wife, who I believe is unaligned.)

I could be wrong, but:

Americans have got too accustomed to the luxury of treating "politics" as something divorced from "real life".

Maybe that's healthy. Maybe taking the attitude toward politicians that we take toward sports teams is the way to preserve The Republic. We can root for our favorite team and be best friends with people who root for the other team; we can brag about our favorite team's victory and make excuses for its defeat; we can analyze our team's statistics in depth and discuss them with our colleagues, neighbors, and friends without embarrassment; and think of all that as "real life" even though it makes no difference to the price of cheese.

Maybe things have to get much worse before "politics" and "real life" merge, here in America.

--TP

[russell]

Best of luck with the new endeavor, McK!

[wj]

I could be wrong, but:

Americans have got too accustomed to the luxury of treating "politics" as something divorced from "real life".

I tend to agree. It's often treated like a spectator sport. With about the same (perceived) impact on life as whether the local sports team wins.

[John D. Thullen]

Here's some real life:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/texas-law-redistricting-communications-secret

Real life will come to the entire Texas Republican government in the form it has throughout history to illegitimate governments, written in their blood.

[John D. Thullen]

The trials will be perfunctory, but the executions, because of the vast number of the conservative vermin in this country that require death, will take years.

https://www.propublica.org/article/secret-border-patrol-facebook-group-agents-joke-about-migrant-deaths-post-sexist-memes?utm_content=buffer58eae&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer

[John D. Thullen]

May we retire the OBWI kitty with Tucker Carlson's widow's husband's epitaph:

“You gotta be honest about what it means to lead a country, it means killing people.”

[cleek]

so ... Border Patrol has ~21,000 agents.

and there were 9,500 members of that private FB group.

pull it out by the root.

[wj]

So, come the next administration, subpoena a list of the members of that group. Make it easy to winnow out the bad apples.

[Ugh]

McKinney - good luck!

I like the trademark!

[bobbyp]

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/texas-law-redistricting-communications-secret

Sigh. These are common examples of market worshiping "freedom loving" wingnut fellow travelers who despise democracy.

Aren't they screwing with the lives of their fellow Texans way more than any federal bureaucrat telling you how many gallons of water your toiled can use per flush?

Rhetorical question.....

I'd even bet most of them commonly haul out that old "The Left believes the ends justify the means" chestnut at the drop of Larry Craig's pants.

Their self-righteousness would make Stalin blush.

They are the worst of both worlds-ideologically self-righteous scumbags.

[wj]

Aren't they screwing with the lives of their fellow Texans way more than any federal bureaucrat telling you how many gallons of water your toiled can use per flush?

In a word, No.

Because "their fellow Texans" doesn't include "those people" -- and those people are the ones they are screwing over.

[John D. Thullen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il-22Q8mECc

I thought North Korea's conservative republican news coverage was more accurate than the spew we put with.

"it means killing people."

[John D. Thullen]

Anyone touches a hair on AOC's head, and we will kill every Republican in this country, after we make them drink out of unflushed toilets, the fucking animals.

https://twitter.com/AOC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1145762201619357696&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eschatonblog.com%2F

[bobbyp]

In a word, No.

Not that I ever disagree with you wj, but in a word, nope.
When you tell some people it's OK to short their employee's paychecks....
When you tell some people it's OK to pollute the environment....
When you tell some people they have government sanction to inflict their religious prejudices on others....
When you tell women they can't control their very own bodies....
When you tell some people they will get gigantic tax breaks at the expense of their fellow citizens....
When you enforce the idea that corporate rights supersede human rights....
When you tell some people their private greed supersedes the public good....

Then I would posit that you are screwing a whole lot of people over, and not just "them" as screwing "them" over goes without saying.

You are telling people "what to do" just as much as any soviet apparatchik.

heh. :)

[Michael Cain]

McKinney,
The pictures in my head for people I only know by internet text are never even close to reality :^)

[CharlesWT]

The other lawyer McKinney in Houston looks like an English theatre actor... :)

[William Jouris]

bobbyp, I think the critical word there was "fellow". I would say that, in the minds of the Republican legislators under discussion (however inaccurately), "fellow Texans" doesn't include any of those screwed over as you mention. Those are other people, not fellow Texans. It's sorta like "real Americans" in that regard.

[byomtov]

Tony,

Your 2:13 comment is very much on target.

There are countries where, for a time, politics is a life-or-death matter for everyone. Not here. Yet.

[russell]

there were 9,500 members of that private FB group.

Two things, I guess.

First, making public statements like those found in the FB group should disqualify you, immediately, from serving in any law enforcement position.

Second, you cannot treat others in inhumane ways without surrendering some amount of your own humanity.

For some folks, that might be perk rather than a danger. But for a lot of folks I imagine it's not.

We need to stop this bullshit because it is destroying people. Not just the immigrants, but us.

[hairshirthedonist]

First, making public statements like those found in the FB group should disqualify you, immediately, from serving in any law enforcement position.

My personal experience makes me suspect that the percentage of people who choose professions that involve carrying guns and exercising authority over other people and who also espouse the sort of ideas in those posts is alarmingly high. That’s not a point of disagreement with your above opinion, russell, It’s just my opinion on how bad the situation is.

[wj]

 making public statements like those found in the FB group should disqualify you, immediately, from serving in any law enforcement position.

I would agree that making statements like this should be disqualifying. But I wonder, does a "private FB group" qualify as "public"? (Not being a Facebook user, I have no clue what constitutes a private group.)

[cleek]

private groups are invite-only, nobody but members can read or write to them.

[russell]

My personal experience makes me suspect...

I don't disagree.

private groups are invite-only

It's public now.

As JDT points out, the membership of that group is almost half the border patrol. They aren't an army, they aren't a "thin green line" protecting us from hostile invaders. The people coming here are not a menacing horde, they are people trying to make a better life for themselves, or in many cases trying to escape calamity. In many cases their crime is either a civil violation or no crime at all. More than no crime, it is in many cases a right protected by international agreement.

These guys need to find other employment.

[wj]

These guys need to find other employment.

Would you hire them?

I'd want to see a very different attitude first. Maybe some quality time doing farm work, or janitorial, would help with that....

[John D. Thullen]

It's a republican cult, America now is.

We're not invited:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/so-heres-how-trump-doing-this

"I would agree that making statements like this should be disqualifying. But I wonder, does a "private FB group" qualify as "public"? (Not being a Facebook user, I have no clue what constitutes a private group.)"

See the above link for the republican fascist ambiguity of public versus private.

The Manson Family, David Koresh, the golf Masters at Augusta, the Conservative Republican Park Service, the murder syndicate called the Border Patrol and ICE, all private and/or attempting to be private cults on public property and taxpayer funded.

Apparently, the prisons the immigrant kids are held in are considered private domains, considering that elected public officials are only grudgingly permitted on the grounds, if admitted at all.

The first two could do and say whatever they pleased privately until they quite suddenly couldn't.

The third gradually and grudgingly makes changes to its historically noxious privately-held (but fully on public display) views, so for now, they can continue. Tiger and Condoleezza now possess acceptable credentials for entry, their skin color and, in the case of the latter, her plumbing.

They also possess the most important credentials, money and prestige.

The final two will go the way of the first two and, if they so choose, and by the same means.

We are advised that killing people is what it takes to lead a country.

First ones in the pool win.

[wj]

all private and/or attempting to be private cults on public property and taxpayer funded

Sure. But Facebook is neither.

Apparently, the prisons the immigrant kids are held in are considered private domains, considering that elected public officials are only grudgingly permitted on the grounds, if admitted at all.

Consider the Trump administration's response to Congressional subpoenas. It appears they think the entire Executive Branch is a private domain. Nothing special, then, about ICE prisons for kids.

[Ugh]

From JDT's TPM link

The ‘Salute to America’ event will be hosted by the President of the United States and will take place at the Lincoln Memorial.

Honestly, we're all canceled.

Also this:

Tiger and Condoleezza now possess acceptable credentials for entry, their skin color and, in the case of the latter, her plumbing.

!!!!!!!!!!!!

When she was Provost and I a student in Palo Alto she responded to some criticism in a public forum with "I've been black all my life." which no one was denying and seemed heartfelt. And here more than a quarter century later she is using the same line...

No one could have predicted....

Tiger at least has some accomplishments in his field that turned out well, not that that excuses his other BS.

[cleek]

all Trump ever wanted to be was a TV star.

[CharlesWT]

Two demons colluding...

"The Boston Globe reports the 'astonishing turn' that organizations created by libertarian billionaire Charles Koch and progressive billionaire George Soros are helping to fund a new think tank, the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft. The new group is committed to promoting 'ideas that move U.S. foreign policy away from endless war and toward vigorous diplomacy in the pursuit of international peace.'"
Charles Koch, George Soros Help Fund Think Tank Opposed To 'Endless War': Welcome to 21st-century politics (finally) with creation of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft.

[cleek]

Charles Koch and progressive billionaire George Soros

and QAnon just fainted

[wj]

all Trump ever wanted to be was a TV star

How . . . inconvenient . . . that this, like so many accomplishments, generally requires a modicum of talent.

[cleek]

italics escape!

terminated (?)

[wj]

Thanks, cleek