The Calm Before the Thynder - Open Thread

by Ugh

Vote Tuesday, he said, expecting the answer no.

I'll be in Silicon Valley then, having turned in my absentee ballot in races so one sided that "some" might say maximizing utility would be better spent watching the Haunting of Hill House, which I had to turn off last night (I'm 45 years old, tho I loved that Henry Thomas was cast in that episode - he deserved an Oscar for E.T.).  

What other Mules are out there? Are they only negative? I think not, or hope not what not. 

Open thread.

Comments

[hairshirthedonist]

Those thieves! (Perhaps bobbyp would like to discuss how sectoral balances make this unsurprising, given the tax-cutting that's been done.)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-economy-tradefigures/u-s-trade-gap-widens-deficit-with-china-rises-to-record-high-idUSKCN1N71DL

[hairshirthedonist]

Over roughly the last 4 years, excess reserves held in depository institutions have dropped by roughly a third. Net spending by the government doesn't appear to be going into the private sector's mattress.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/EXCSRESNS

[cleek]

I loved that Henry Thomas was cast in that episode

he's in all of it.

though only as young dad. Timothy Hutton is old dad.

[Ugh]

cleek - cool! I only made it through the first one last night (maybe not even all they way through, come to think of it)

[wj]

Most of the races here are pretty one-sided, too. Although the one for State Superintendent of Public Instruction may be interesting.

The race for the Assembly is being . . . odd. As I have mentioned, the incumbent is a Republican -- of the rare moderate-to-liberal variety. She's done well enough for us, her constituents, that even in a district where Democrats outnumber Republicans by quite a margin she has been reelected before. Her Democratic challenger has felt compelled to resort to falsehoods on a massive scale. (Not Trumpian, but she hasn't had his decades of practice.) And gotten called out for it repeatedly by local newspapers and radio and TV stations.

Be interesting to see how it plays out. Although I confess that once the polls close and I get home, the first thing I look at will likely be the House and Senate results from elsewhere.

[CharlesWT]

"Some of the most heated races in the November election are for offices that most Californians know little about. Ask an average voter about the Orwellian-sounding Bureau of Equalization (BOE), and they'll look at you with an eyes-glazed-over stare reminiscent of a cat's gaze after you ask whether it prefers tuna or turkey giblets. Likewise, how many voters can tell you why the race for insurance commissioner is so important?"
California's Insurance Commissioner Race: The Most Important Election You've Never Heard About: The winner gets to decide how much Californians will pay for property and casualty insurance.

[joel hanes]

My Silicon Valley family makes a civic ritual of going down to the polling place together -- because it's CA, we have no worries about long lines or balky machines, so we're going Tuesday evening. Four straight-D votes.

[wj]

Poizner has the advantage that he was Insurance Commissioner before, and did a decent job of it. That combination of a track record and name recognition seems to be making a difference.

That he is running as "No Party Preference" does provide an additional feature: he would be the first statewide officer elected in California without a party affiliation.

[bobbyp]

Speaking of commissioners....How about this race?

I don't know how a state government could let this happen...

Voted by mail over a week ago. Typical spoiled King County voter.

[wj]

Bobby, it does seem like an amazingly unaccountable public office. But I suspect (in the best traditional way, that is without bothering to check the actual facts) the way it happened is that a long time ago it wasn't a particularly important office, so they didn't put in restrictions. And now, the same folks who benefit from it the way it is don't want to change things.

[novakant]

Haunting of Hill House started out very well but from around ep 5 or 6 it all became a bit too sentimental for my liking.

[bobbyp]

HSH: Trade deficit + government deficit -> increased net private savings as shown here.

So if this excess of private financial savings is not being deposited in banks, it must be going elsewhere.

I blame bitcoin :)

[cleek]

the sentimentality (and the standard big family drama stuff) was a bit much for me, too. but the quality of the scary parts more than made up for it.

[hairshirthedonist]

Trade deficit + government deficit -> increased net private savings

Hmmm... Are you getting rusty? Trade deficits militate against private savings.

[joel hanes]

I'll be in Silicon Valley

If you want a perfect bit of lamb, have dinner at Kabul in Sunnyvale. They'll bring you a dish of green chutney if you ask, and you should.

[Countme-a-Demon]

With two days to go, the republican party rushes to get its final campaign events in:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/scott-beierle-tallahassee-yoga-studio-misogynist-extremist

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/man-arrested-arson-anti-semitic-graffiti-brooklyn

They'll kick of the 2020 presidential race on Wednesday to re-elect mp with a mass murder fund-raising event.

[cleek]

wow...

according to the Daily Caller...

The suspect in the vandalism of a New York synagogue was a Democratic activist and former City Hall intern who worked on anti-hate crime issues, The Daily Caller News Foundation has learned.

He is a “queer” black man informally adopted by a Jewish couple, and The New York Times’ charity, the Neediest Cases, helped pay for him to go to college where his focus was African American studies, according to a 2017 New York Times profile.

https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/03/nyc-synagogue-vandalism-suspect/

[Countme-a-Demon]

.... a republican by any other name, I expect ....

I suppose we'll find out he was in Pittsburgh earlier in the week as well.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/midterms-2018/trump-reporter-question-shoot-migrant-caravan-asylum-seekers-immigration-troops-us-mexico-border-a8615341.html

I'm taking questions from republicans.

I call on POX news first. Speak into the muzzle.

A little closer, please. I can't hear you.

[Nigel]

Trade deficits militate against private savings.

Or vice versa.

[bobbyp]

(S - I) + (M - X) + (T - G) = 0

Ooops. You are correct, hsh. My algebra ain't what it used to be.

[russell]

the republican party rushes to get its final campaign events in

The time is out of joint. Various wheels are coming off. Woodwork squeaks and out come the freaks. The lid is off.

It's gonna be like this for a while. Sanity will prevail in the end. Or, it won't. Or, it will, but not anytime soon.

I don't know how people get to the point that they think that randomly killing some other people is going to make the world better, or alleviate their personal existential misery, or scratch whatever fu king itch it is they need to scratch.

I don't know how people come to the point where believing plain and obvious lies seems like a better idea than using the sense they were born with. I don't know how they get to the point of being unable to see the simple humanity in the people who are around them.

We are living in a bad time. Keep your head, do your best, and we'll see if we can't get through it all.

Some of us won't. There is going to be damage. Try not to add to it, and do your best to remediate it where you can.

That's all I got. That, and get off your ass and vote, while you still can and while it still mostly matters.

[Nigel]

The result of this race is going to be interesting:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/03/kara-eastman-nebraska-democrats-2018-elections-222185

FWIW, I disagree with the way the debate over the Democrats’ best electoral strategy is framed - and although I would have voted for Eastman in the highly unlikely event of my being a Nebraskan, I disagree with her that she could not also win votes in the centre.
(Though she goes some way in acknowledging this by insisting she’s not a socialist - as does her opponent who tries to present her as one.)

[Nigel]

Another interesting election story on the same theme:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/11/katie-muth-progressive-pennsylvania-senate-race-democrats.html

[Countme-a-Demon]

Well, I expect he's correct about the "stupid" label, but what he REALLY thinks is that 51% of the voters in Georgia are racist subhuman vermin like himself, and he might only be a few percentage points off in either direction:

https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/11/04/brian-kemp-thinks-georgians-are-stupid/

Kemp is what the Founders had in mind when they signed their imprimatur to the pure, originalist "ALL white men are created equal, except those without property", but fortunately for those ilk the Second Amendment has been misconstrued, away from the Founders' intentions, to permit ALL Americans access to the military level weaponry required to defend ourselves from Kemp's and mp's conservative movement by wiping it off the face of the Earth.

Really some addled thinking there among republicans and conservatives.

[wj]

what he REALLY thinks is that 51% of the voters in Georgia are racist subhuman vermin like himself

On the contrary. His actions make it quite clear that he knows, not just thinks but knows, that they are not. Otherwise he wouldn't need to got thru all this.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Doesn't republican conservative mp have a history of making calls under fake news aliases to push his subhuman brand?

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/georgia-voters-get-racist-sexist-robocalls-featuring-oprah-winfrey-impersonator-2018-11-04?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

mp's personal lawyer, apparently not so good at the enthusiasm required to suck the Prez's tiny cuck, this fired, regarding why he has advised mp not to submit to Mueller's request for a personal interview: "You are a fucking liar!"

mp: "The media's questions are causing violence."

Wait until we hear the answers.

Then we will witness.

[Countme-a-Demon]

"On the contrary. His actions make it quite clear that he knows, not just thinks but knows, that they are not. Otherwise he wouldn't need to got thru all this."

If the sippy cup is half full, why must you hold it completely upside down vertical to get even a drop out of it?

My cup runneth over.

But I tell the bartender it's empty so she'll bring me another.

[Countme-a-Demon]

What this country needs is good self-driving sandwich:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/restaurants-shrink-as-food-delivery-apps-get-more-popular/ar-BBP3gDf

[Countme-a-Demon]

https://www.investopedia.com/news/peter-thiel-says-there-wont-be-anymore-breakthrough-consumer-internet-companies/?partner=YahooSA&yptr=yahoo

Money quote .. and Sunday morning's bullshit primer in speaking American English as a meaningless language:

Thiel: "the inaccuracies mp tells are exaggerations of the Truth".

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/thomas_jefferson_101007?src=t_truth

"Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom.'

Subsequent chapters in Jefferson's bio"

"The Walk Back"

"Check That"

"Sally Could Run But She Couldn't Hide"

"I Did NOT Urinate on George Washington's Tree of Cherries"

"My SPOX Will Get Back To You"

"Whaddaya got on Hamilton and Adams?"

"I Never Dropped My Britches In Front of Those Come Hither Slaves"

"Quel est "guillotine'?"

"Everybody Believes It So What's Not True About It"

"Lies I Haven't Gotten To Yet" subtitle: "Shit I Wish I Had Made Up"

"The Louisiana Purchase"

"Forget Everything I Said About Hamilton's Illegal Bank"

"250 Years of Talking Out My Ass"

"Violent Answers to Simple Questions"

"I Could Enjoy a Beer With King George"

"All Men Are Created Equal"

"Some Men Are Created Equal"

"Some Men Are Created"

"Some Men Are"

"Men Are"

"Are"

[bobbyp]

"Are"

"Aye"

[Countme-a-Demon]

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/11/racist-vote-suppression-texas

In any other civilized country there would be non-stop savage murderous violence against the vermin who disallow voting by the citizenry.

America was one of those civilized countries, for roughly five minutes in dog years.

[Nigel]

This is a very good article about the lamentable messaging of the Democtpratic leadership:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/11/pelosi-schumer-democratic-messaging-is-extremely-bad.html

I’ve said. it before, but it’s time that they remembered the concept of elder stateswomen and statesmen, and retired a few of the septuagenarians from the leadership.

[russell]

Everybody seems to hate Pelosi.

If the (D)'s flip the House my guess is that Pelosi will be majority leader, and also that she will kick ass and take names. Daily. Starting on day 1.

So I think Pelosi is fine, bad puns or no.

I only wish Schumer had half her grit.

[Nigel]

I don’t hate Pelosi - I just think clinging on to power too long isn’t good for you, or for the next generation of leaders.
Hence my reference to elder stateswomen. The idea that you become irrelevant if you’re no longer competing for any of the various leaderships is plain wrong.

And whether or not she’ll be an effective majority leader doesn’t really address the alleged campaigning deficiencies.

[russell]

(D)'s make bad puns.

(R)'s dip into the third reich rhetorical playbook.

gnats and camels.

[russell]

the problem here is that dipping into the third reich playbook has a constituency.

I find it hard to blame Pelosi, Schumer, et al for that.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars.

[russell]

In any other civilized country there would be non-stop savage murderous violence

I get, and we all get, that you're angry.

In no civilized country would there be non-stop savage murderous violence. Countries where there is non-stop savage murderous violence are countries that have ceased to be civilized. By definition.

We are, I'm pretty sure, all angry about the mess that is being made of this country.

Non-stop savage murderous violence will not help that. On the contrary.

Maybe it's time to move beyond the self-indulgence of angry venting.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Tippecanoe and Tyler too.

If mp stood in the middle of every 5th Avenue in every city in the country and shot a guy dead, those acts would be considered a campaign promise fulfilled by the conservative movement and their voters.

If one party is dipping into the third reich rhetorical playbook to galvanize a constituency, then the other party, the Democtpractic one, ought to stage a Warsaw ghetto uprising and run ads dramatizing it with a sound track consisting of bursts of automatic gunfire.

The eleven crossover voters remaining in the country will be identified immediately and they can take a side.

I suppose I could point out that America at points in its history has in fact employed non-stop savage murderous violence to civilize other countries and a good half of this one, and now flounces around with its pinkies in the air tailoring moderately harsh language against the current fascist threat within our borders, which need to become porous in the other direction, as in driving the republican party into the rising seas, but I certainly get your point.

Venting here keeps me off the streets, just as gun ranges keep millions of republicans' hands busy working overtime.

I've already voted.

I thought Nigel's cite was superior counsel.

WRS.

Thank you for tolerating me.

[cleek]

i read this much "pelosi-schumer-democratic-messaging-is-extremely-bad" and then remembered that the entire GOP, top to bottom, is running on lies about health care and lies about immigrants and lies about voting and lies about their piety.

and, well, fuck it.

some safe idle dilettante scribbler thinks its worth his/her time to write about how the Dems are doing it wrong, while the GOP has gleefully abandoned truth?

i have no time for that.

i have no time for hand-wringing from the same people who brought us a year of HRC's emails and moaning about her "deplorables" comments (guess what - they're exactly as she described and they're not shy about it!!).

i wish they'd at least close the door while they stroke themselves.

[Countme-a-Demon]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/washington-examiner-tweet-trump-is-going-to-hell/ar-BBPmx6b

Things are looking up .... well, maybe "down" would be a better word.

The Washington Examiner?

Make that person the Editor.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Let's unpack the word "civilized".

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/05/02/brian-kemp-pointing-gun-teen-daughters.hln

In a civilized country, in which political elements, like many republican/racist/conservatives, wield deadly weapons as an advertisement for their intentions, originalist or not, I take that as a personal threat, not a fucking metaphor.

In a civilized country, the murderer wannabe, like Kemp, would be arrested and taken into custody, along with the violent mothers who bankroll him, for making those threats over the airwaves.

But we are not civilized, it seems, in those terms.

Therefore, if you threaten me with a deadly weapon over the airwaves, I will show up personally and be in your face with likewise civilized deadly force and you will wish that weapon you are brandishing is loaded and you'd better fucking shoot me.

Then you can run another ad, Governor, and govern with blood on your hands and rest of us can piss on your calls for civility.

[Nigel]

" Democtpratic "

Apologies - a genuine typo, and not a windup.

Though I quite like it.

[Nigel]

some safe idle dilettante scribbler thinks its worth his/her time to write about how the Dems are doing it wrong, while the GOP has gleefully abandoned truth?...

A fair point, as it's perhaps not entirely productive to be complaining about messaging a day before the election.

But i still think it's more or less correct - and the larger point is that triangulation with a Republican party which has completely lost its bearings is plain wrong.

[Countme-a-Demon]

I like it too. The party of demotic practical mockery.

No more triangulation, absolutely.

Down with groveling at the feet of the hypotenuse.

Up with whatever destroys the republican party.

[russell]

But we are not civilized, it seems, in those terms.

This is a fair point.

triangulation with a Republican party which has completely lost its bearings is plain wrong

If the (D)'s decided to take it to the (R)'s in a serious way, rather than make 'lame' puns, I'd be fine with that.

But that also seems insufficiently civil.

My personal advice to the (D)'s would be to run on "they've taken most of your stuff, and now they want the rest". But that's also not on.

So, whatever. Whatever rhetorical approach the (D)'s take, somebody will say it sucks.

I'll be glad if they take the House, roll up some governships, and make some progress at state and local levels. It'll be a lever, and if they take the House and Pelosi is speaker, my guess is that she'll use it.

[bobbyp]

I disagree with her that she could not also win votes in the centre.

The "Centre" is free to join us. The point is to be loud and proud.

[cleek]

re: The Dems Doing It Wrong

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/11/krugman-subtweets-excellent-series

maybe the Dems are actually doing it right, and the zombie narrative about them doing it wrong is wrong ?

impossible!

[russell]

by the end of the week, we'll see what's what.

if the (D)'s don't make progress this time around, there's always 2020.

and then every election after that.

sooner or later, either people will get sick of the whole (R) brand of BS, and they'll kick them out. or, they won't. and we'll continue on our path to second-rate status.

whatever happens, it won't be because (D)'s don't know how to make better puns.

[JanieM]

What cleek said:

some safe idle dilettante scribbler thinks its worth his/her time to write about how the Dems are doing it wrong, while the GOP has gleefully abandoned truth?

i have no time for that.

i have no time for hand-wringing from the same people who brought us a year of HRC's emails and moaning about her "deplorables" comments (guess what - they're exactly as she described and they're not shy about it!!).

i wish they'd at least close the door while they stroke themselves.

I've taken up closing the door by staying away from the internet. I keep trying to remember, and to a tiny extent reclaim, how I spent my days before it was invented. It's quite a revelation.

[Countme-a-Demon]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/mika-brezizinski-trump-told-me-he-knew-birtherism-was-bad-but-it-works?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning

It's sociopathic genius really, mimicking the racism and misogyny and hate for the Other (Though the act is VERY convincing. I think racist mp was mimicking a mimic winking that he's not a racist. I mean, Hitler perhaps did not intend in 1928 to gas the Jews and the gays, and the gypsies, it was just all rough talk, but then Himmler and company scheduled the trains and manufactured the ovens and well, alright, it would be a shame not to actually use the infrastructure of hate and murder after talking ourselves into it, wouldn't it, now?) of the racist republican base .... now roughly 42% of the voting population (always there, ready to be stoked) to take power.

I've observed republican conservatives up close all my life and talk like one now. I have become the role.

Quite nice folks on an individual basis but given to starting sentences in political discussions with "What we oughta do is ...." and "Some people would say we should .." or my favorite from a deceased aunt of mine, whom was a fabulous person in all other respects .. "You know, Hitler might have been right about some things."

She wasn't talking about taxes.

mp was and happy, and now is doubling down to be the out front "we" and "some people" and "Hitler", but without the passive voice and 42%-plus of the electorate find it enthralling.

They wanna lay some track heading East and they must be destroyed.

But, I've typecast myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDEakAb4vTo

I do try to make sure the funny walk remains funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0

Maybe I should do Jimmy Cagney instead.

[Girl from the North Country]

I haven't been taking part, for pretty obvious reasons, but my mother's funeral is tomorrow and I'm hoping to become a fully functioning member of the commentariat again soon thereafter. I just wanted you all to know that whatever my other preoccupations I'm thinking of you tomorrow, and I'm hoping against hope that the results of the election are such as to have a beneficial effect somewhere on the spectrum between very significant and enormous.

[JanieM]

...i wish they'd at least close the door while they stroke themselves.

I've taken up closing the door by staying away from the internet.

Ha ha, what I meant, in case it wasn't clear, is that since they won't close the door, I'm closing it on them from my side. Or at the very least, ignoring them and keeping my eyes and mind focused elsewhere.

[Tony P.]

"Messaging" suggestions are like keyboards: everybody has one.
Except me. I have several:

Kiss-Ass Kavanaugh (too late now)

Fake President (never too late)

Rubber-Stamp Republicans (too obvious?)

"Truck Fump" hats (too subtle?)

Make America Decent Again (too controversial?)

--TP

[Countme-a-Demon]

This:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2018/11/02/luis-bracamontes-killer-trump-immigration-ad-had-been-arrested-phoenix-area/1851881002/

Elect me President and I will order the arrest and execution of both Arpaio and mp.

There might be a trial in there somewhere once I pack the Courts.

"Execute Tippecanoe and Tyler Too" fits on a bumper sticker.

Yeah, and Jeff Flake.

[Countme-a-Demon]

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-threatens-illegal-voters-with-maximum-criminal-penalties-in-pre-election-tweet

We can be civilized or we can endure as a country.

[wj]

the larger point is that triangulation with a Republican party which has completely lost its bearings is plain wrong.

A quarter of a century ago (yes, I was startled to see that it has been that long), when the term "triangluation" was coined, we were looking at a very different GOP. Then, it made sense.

But the concept behind it still does make sense. Not the literal sense of triangulation with today's Republicans; as you say, they've run mad. But in the sense of triangulation with all those folks who want no part art of the insanity, but who aren't actually down-the-line liberals either. That's still a good idea.

[wj]

"You know, Hitler might have been right about some things."

Quite. For example, that it would be a good idea to make a deal with Stalin, because trying to fight a two front war was a losing proposition. Fortunately for the would, he got over being right on that one.

[wj]

Dang! Two comments in a row** that had to be rescued from the Spam folder. Maybe the kitty doesn't love me any more.... 🙁

** Now up to 4

[novakant]

GFTNC: hang in there, all the best.

[Countme-a-Demon]

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/11/dutch-rudy-giuliani-stolen-10-billion/

Of course he did.

Give the republican a blindfold and a last cigarette.

[hairshirthedonist]

But in the sense of triangulation with all those folks who want no part art of the insanity, but who aren't actually down-the-line liberals either. That's still a good idea.

It's potentially a good idea. Whether it actually is or not depends on the conditions at the time. Does attempting to appeal to those in the middle (or wherever) gain you more or fewer votes than it will cost you votes from your base?

That's not an easy question to answer, and the answer certainly isn't always "more." What's the answer in 2018? I don't know.

(Is it the same answer for both sides?)

[wj]

Does attempting to appeal to those in the middle (or wherever) gain you more or fewer votes than it will cost you votes from your base?

That's not an easy question to answer

I'm having trouble with the thesis that staunch liberals will sit home and sulk if their candidate isn't as totally liberal on every issue as they would prefer. I'd think the past two years would show the folly of that course.

But perhaps you know them better than I.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Good article:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-hated-conflicted-dishonest-us-president-would-have-a-good-laugh-over-this-midterm-election-2018-11-05?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

[Countme-a-Demon]

Hopes dashed:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/washington-examiner-says-it-was-%E2%80%98hacked%E2%80%99-after-trump-%E2%80%98is-going-to-hell%E2%80%99-tweet/ar-BBPmRbK

[Pro Bono]

We can be civilized or we can endure as a country.

I don't know how seriously to take the Count, but I profoundly disagree with this. I want my side to do right. We should tell the truth about the fascist conspiracy the Republican Party has become, but let us not become a mirror image of the evil we oppose.

[wj]

What Pro Bono said

[hairshirthedonist]

I'm having trouble with the thesis that staunch liberals will sit home and sulk if their candidate isn't as totally liberal on every issue as they would prefer.

Staunch liberals might be the hardest to please of all. Maybe you'd have an easier time imagining what it takes to get Tea Party types excited if you're a Republican candidate. Does reaching out to the middle make them happy, such that they'll go out in high numbers and vote for someone who campaigns as a moderate?

The other side of question is whether actively courting the mushy middle actually appeals to them as much as you might think. Perhaps explaining how liberal policies will help people in general is as persuasive as trying adopt lukewarm, toned-down positions, only without the attendant damage to base enthusiasm.

Let's consider the last presidential election. Who tried to reach the middle? Who won?

[Tony P.]

There's a reason the "mushy middle" is mushy. Whether the reason is ignorance or apathy, I don't know and I don't care.

Think about what it takes for any voter in the US to be "mushy", in this election. I mean that seriously. What does it take to be sort-of-for and sort-of-against the party of He, Trump? What possible "message" can such voters still be waiting for?

--TP

[wj]

Let's consider the last presidential election. Who tried to reach the middle? Who won?

Clinton. And Clinton won the popular vote. Other than the Presidency, with its peculiar electoral College system, winning the popular vote is what wins elections.

[bobbyp]

Clinton.

She ran on a platform that was farther left than that of any Democratic candidate since LBJ.

...but let us not become a mirror image of the evil we oppose.

Spitting in the eye of a nazi is not to become a nazi.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Maybe if the monster sees itself in the mirror, there might occur the shock of recognition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=765pExuOcZ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPzY30v9mtgs

[hairshirthedonist]

Clinton. And Clinton won the popular vote. Other than the Presidency, with its peculiar electoral College system, winning the popular vote is what wins elections.

Sure. But everyone goes into it knowing that the popular vote isn't what matters. And she ran against a candidate with one of the worst-run presidential campaigns in history. She had the full backing of the party machine. She lost to the fire-breather.

Considering bobbyp's proposition that she ran further to the left than anyone since LBJ (in a general election, anyway), it's probably noteworthy that we've had twice as many Republican presidents since LBJ, and you could still argue that it wasn't to the left enough.

Then again, I don't think Clinton had a lot of street cred with the left, with her historical association with the DLC, so maybe it wouldn't have mattered. (On the other other hand, she still beat Sanders in the primary, and he was further left than she was.)

[Countme-a-Demon]

This is a fine article regarding a promising development:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/larry-krasners-campaign-to-end-mass-incarceration

[sapient]

And she ran against a candidate with one of the worst-run presidential campaigns in history. She had the full backing of the party machine. She lost to the fire-breather.

Honestly, I'm so tired of this. She ran against someone who had the full illicit support of the second most powerful nuclear power, a country that manipulated the UK's Brexit fight, against what likely would have been the popular vote. She ran against a hostile press, which treated her very typical email server practices as a major scandal, while ignoring and denying the very serious evidence of Trump's collusion with the Russian government, and history of criminally fraudulent business practices. The FBI director, in an unprecedented and unethical move, announced an investigation tainting her integrity (which was not a real issue), moments before the election. She faced opposition by disgusting [foreign] trolls, some of whom were active here, rehashing Republican talking point lies (similar to those spun against Gore and Kerry, but some people will never learn). Not to mention that she faced the historical rhythm of eight years being the limit of a party's stint controlling the Executive branch.

Could we, now, please stop blaming her for winning an election but losing the electoral college by a few votes? The voters who needed an artisan farm raised candidate, the people here who ranted for Obama's entire presidency about the very conservative drone war that he waged against enemies in a war he inherited, people who don't know how to be loyal when it counts, they are the ones who deserve blame.

I'm glad the people here plan to vote tomorrow. If we do manage to win the House, will you learn to support the people who won?

(Clinton's "historical association with the DLC"? What does that even mean when she worked all her life for progressive causes and ran the most progressive campaign in recent history? Are you still pissed that her husband managed to win an election when more liberal Democrats weren't winning elections, and when they didn't win the primary?)

What's sad is that so many people on our side can't recognize leadership, can't acknowledge expertise, and can't participate or collaborate. There's certainly value in independent analysis, if people can grasp the concept of collaborating rather than rebelling.

hsh, do you hate Nancy Pelosi too? Does she have a couple of things in common with Hillary Clinton that we can identify pretty quickly?

[hairshirthedonist]

Kiss my ass. I voted for her enthusiastically.

[sapient]

Then stop blaming her.

[hairshirthedonist]

I’m not blaming her. I’m stating what I see as the facts of the matter. She did actually lose, unfortunately.

(And even if I were “blaming” her, that’s would be my prerogative. You can vote for someone, want them to president, believe that they would have been at least a good president, and still blame them for losing the election if you think they screwed up their campaign strategy.)

[sapient]

Well, good for you with your analysis, which seems to omit any mention of the obstacles she faced, but instead pretends that Trump had no help.

Also, sorry for my hair trigger. I'm glad that you voted for her, and it's great that people are attempting to be thoughtful. But please quit ignoring the same things that the press ignored. How much information do you need that Republicans are fascists, and they'll win by any means necessary? Did you ever read Sarah Kendzior and her comparison of the Russian manipulation of its satellite countries with its interference in the US? If not, please do. Don't ignore this.

[bobbyp]

Then stop blaming her.

Criticism is not the same as blame. I looked it up.

The discussion is about milquetoast Dem candidates always trying to tack to the center. Some times that works. Some times it does not. Why, I recall some guy named Kuchinich was elected mayor of a major on its heels ex-industrial mid-western city, and that senator from Ohio Sharrod what's his name, and Paul Wellstone, and that Russ guy.

We do not, NOT have to put up with the Joe Liebermans of the world solely on the theory that tacking to the middle is the "only" way to win.

It is not.

[sapient]

The discussion is about milquetoast Dem candidates always trying to tack to the center.

Did you miss the discussion of Hillary Clinton? I guess so. She isn't a milquetoast Dem. She didn't tack to the center. That wasn't the discussion I was having, so go ahead and have whatever discussion you want, but don't quote what I said, because you're not talking to me if you think Hillary Clinton was tracking to the center.

Also, there are Democrats whose views I sometimes don't agree with, so I talk about those issues. I assume that there's a reason they got elected in their jurisdiction. I loved Sheldon Whitehouse in the Judiciary Committee proceedings regarding Kavanaugh. Then I found out that he doesn't necessarily (or wholeheartedly) support DC statehood. I don't like that about him. But I still like him. Get it?

[hairshirthedonist]

Also, sorry for my hair trigger.

It’s Kool and the Gang. We’re all living something of a political nightmare right now. The Bush years seem quaint by comparison.

[sapient]

It’s Kool and the Gang. We’re all living something of a political nightmare right now. The Bush years seem quaint by comparison.

Yep. I'm going to bed. Working at the polls tomorrow. May the force be with us.

[Nous]

Clinton was not a milquetoast, but she was a Third-Way Democrat with a history of association with neoliberalism. She could run on a liberal platform all she wanted and it wouldn't put a dent in the right's impression that she was a raging leftist or the left's impression that she was a free-market corporatist. That makes for trust issues on either end of the coalition.

And she still managed to win the popular vote.

But a candidate without that history to overcome might have been better positioned to tack right or left during a campaign and make that move seem more a matter of conviction and less a matter of branding. Clinton, not so much. She had a very narrow range of strategies available to her. She got most of them right.

The Russians put their thumb on the scales, sure, but they didn't invent anything to hit her with, they just amplified the effects of the difficulties she already faced.

IOW -- I don't think there is a single approach for Dems trying to put together a winning message and coalition. I think that each candidate needs to find the approach that best plays up his or her chances while projecting a genuine public persona and the Dem electorate needs to be ready to go all in behind the winner.

[wj]

Working at the polls tomorrow. May the force be with us.

Ditto