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October 18, 2018

Comments

That really requires defining bad behavior, along with everything else only 23% felt major outlets should be at risk and this :

"But there were some areas that both parties agreed: There was a consensus of 85 percent that a free press is essential for American democracy and of 88 percent that free speech is one of the values that make America great. "

There are news outlets that people on this thread think should be shut down. For myself, bad behavior would have to include advocating violence.

When I said 'Democrats', I was rather more narrowly talking about candidates for election.

no worries Nigel. thanks for the Atlantic piece, and also for the Simon interview.

Simon is what it looks and sounds like when People Like Me are not being politically correct. Folks should be careful what they ask for.

There are news outlets that people on this thread think should be shut down.

Show one example of that.

For myself, bad behavior would have to include advocating violence.

How do you feel about reporters being body-slammed? Are people who body-slam reporters "your kind of guy"?

Take care with your answer, you're already on record.

People who shove reporters who are assaulting them are pretty normal people. I'm actually pretty consistent without the threats, of what I'm not sure. But I will be careful.

Alex Jones is one most would be happy to shut down. Not a fan either, so let's not turn this into Marty defends Alex Jones.

There are news outlets that people on this thread think should be shut down.

By Presidential fiat ??
(which is what the survey question was about)

Unless (actually, even if) you mean yourself, I'd be interested to know just who is favour of such a thing.

Even a press regulator is deeply controversial (I think it a pretty terrible idea), and has caused serious controversy in the UK:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Press_Standards_Organisation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMPRESS

People who shove reporters who are assaulting them are pretty normal people.

I've decided to take Nigel's advice and not be politically correct.

This is mealy-mouthed, disingenuous tripe.

"Shove" is not "body-slam". "Confront with a microphone" is not "assault".

When you have to lie in order for your point to have any validity, you have no point.

He was accosted. He overreacted. The reporter shared the blame, if it was Hillarys security detail you'd have no problem. In fact, in that case he wouldnt hage gotten anywhere near the room.

if it was Hillarys security detail you'd have no problem

it wasn't Hillarys security detail. it wasn't Hillary.

an actual Republican legislator physically assaulted a reporter.

and you're defending him.

typical. not surprising.

There are news outlets that people on this thread think should be shut down.

There are some I wish would go out of business because enough people would come to realize that they spew lies and unnecessarily foment outrage, while bringing little to nothing of journalistic value to the table.

Maybe that's what Marty meant. But I doubt it.

What happened.

Note:

Gianforte pleaded guilty in June 2017, paid a $385 fine, completed 40 hours of community service, 20 hours of anger management training, wrote an apology letter and donated $50,000 to the Committee to Protect Journalists.

The charge Gianforte pleaded guilty to was misdemeanor assault.

If you have to tell yourself lies to continue believing what you want to believe, maybe it's not worth it.

But, carry on as you wish.

Maybe that's what Marty meant.

Marty can explain what he meant, if he so desires.

And with that, I'm leaving Marty alone for the rest of the day.

Another quote from Simon's interview is, perhaps, apposite.

Because the appropriate response to... organized disinformation campaigns is not to politely reason with such in long threads of fact-sharing. All that does is lend a fundamental credence to the worst kind of speech—which, grievously, seems to be the paradigm that Twitter prefers at present. It’s a paradigm that offers two basic choices: Ignore the deplorati—which allows the dishonesty or cruelty to stand in public view and acquire the veneer of credibility by doing so. Or worse, engage in some measure of serious disputation with all manner of horseshit, which also grants trash the veneer of credibility...

The piece is well worth reading in full:
https://slate.com/technology/2018/10/david-simon-twitter-ban-mike-godwin-interview.html

"There are some I wish would go out of business because enough people would come to realize that they spew lies and unnecessarily foment outrage, while bringing little to nothing of journalistic value to the table."

Yeah this.

He was a politician who had no upside in challenging this, as his political advisor I would have told him to do all that. It doesn't mean the reporter didn't accost him, the reporter had no risk of a price to pay for what he did.

If you have to tell yourself it is ok for reporters to be assholes then go ahead.

Did he accost him or assault him?

Also, too, I don't think it's okay for anyone to be an asshole. If it were okay, it would be "being an asshole" in the first place. So, what you have to demonstrate is that the reporter was actually being an asshole in a convincing way. Then you have to demonstrate that the response to his being an asshole was appropriate for a public, political figure.

If it were okay, it wouldn't be "being an asshole" in the first place.

(dammit)

Did he accost him or assault him?

He accaulted him. This is punishable by being elected to Congress.

It's not so hard to learn what happened.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/greg-gianforte-fox-news-team-witnesses-gop-house-candidate-body-slam-reporter

Now, if Marty wants to make a case that an eyewitness report by FOX News employees isn't worth the paper it's printed on because the lot of them are hired, trained, and do the twirl for the cause of being fucking liars about every subject in the book, I'm willing to listen.

I think Gianforte should be provided the same quantity and quality of defense and understanding from conservatives that Trayvon Martin received, adjusted of course for melanin content.

It's not difficult to fake zero.

I notice Marty is plea bargaining the reporter's actions from assault down to accosting.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accost

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assault

All exercises of the First Amendment are an accost on something or someone.

I hate peas. So take a swing at me, motherfuckers.

If we are going to equate those actions with physical assault, then my constitutional interpretation of bullets in flight, much like dollars transferred into politician's bank accounts, as a form of free speech might gain some traction.

In this fluid and uncertain world, Marty's preference for authoritarianism is a rock on which you could build a church.

"Politicians" (as long as they're Republican) should not have to put up with pesky reporters "accosting" them, because "politicians" deserve the respect due to Authority.

"Politicians" (as long as they're Republican) should be free to preach sermons and send out epistles; reporters should respectfully transcribe them in silence, like monks.

"Politicians" (as long as they're Republican) who lead their congregations in hymns like "Lock Her Up" are merely promulgating the Gospel According to Marty.

All this is subject to change the minute another Kenyan Usurper insinuates himself into the White House like a serpent into Eden.

--TP

Here's a guy exercising his politically CORRECT First Amendment rights:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ryanairs-punishment-for-racist-passenger-who-called-an-elderly-black-woman-a-stupid-ugly-cow-more-legroom-2018-10-22?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

We have a large opinion gap to bridge in terms of what to do about these events.

Some say, as I do, that Gianforte should have fully and justifiably been gut shot by the reporter in self-defense like Trayvon Martin was.

I think the elderly black lady should have pistol-whipped that racist conservative on the plane.

The compromise was to give the conservative fuck more leg room.

I hope the lady receives free drinks from RyanAir for the rest of her life, but considering that the head of the airline has ruminated about having passengers STAND, like sardines for the entirety of future flights, I doubt drinks of any kind are available.

Has I been a witness to the racist verbal assault on that flight and then sat there for the rest of the flight with MY kneecaps up against the metal cross bar on the back of the seat in front of me, I'd have followed the fuck to his car in the parking garage and accosted him with the First Amendment.

It's hard to disagree with Marty's logic on this one: Trump says Gianforte body-slammed the reporter. Therefore he didn't.

Poor exasperated Lindsay Graham:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/graham-betrayed-crown-prince-done-me

Meanwhile, Khashoggi may still be alive and trying to sneak across our southern border:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-claims-baselessly-that-criminals-unknown-middle-easterners-part-of-caravan

Better kill him again, Mr President.

I'm picky, I in WWF that wasnt a body slam, on the other hand, being told multiple times not to go in a room, being told to leave and then sticking s microphone in the guys face would get him forcibly removed from any candidates hq.

Accosted, assaulted pick your term, either one would get you forcibly restrained by any security team. Too bad he didn't have one, it would have been a nonevent.

It's an ugly, ugly playbook. If a Republican hurts you, or a hit squad kills you, or any right winger does anything bad to you whatsoever...... the hordes are out, explaining how and why it's your fault. The reporter whacked by Gianforte, Christine Blasey Ford, Kashoggi, children at the border (didja know this is all happening because their parents are irresponsible?), the dead woman at Charlottesville, the list could go endlessly on.

Sitting around here arguing for years on end with a self-styled independent thinker cum Fox News parrot who has nothing more original to say than the bots who flood twitter, and who is no more likely to change his mind than they are, and who is better at standing words on their heads than Saruman, is a criminal waste of the precious minutes of my life.

I am going offline. You all have fun now.

"being told to leave and then sticking s microphone in the guys face would get him forcibly removed from any candidates hq."

Who? Khashoggi?

The WWF is the standard now for body slams? Just the fake ones, or what?

mp is about to float a new meme that Khashoggi was merely auditioning with the 18-man* tag team in the WWF wrestling studio at the Saudi's Turkish Embassy. WWF, yet another piece of shit shiny cultural thing America is polluting the world with, is big money now in Saudi Arabia.

A pile driving, suggested by Khashoggi as a lark, went wrong, apparently, causing his head to separate from his torso. This often happens at stateside WWF events and the fans go wild.

I expect a Khashoggi body double, wearing a neck brace, will appear soon on Meet the Accosters and in chastened Andy Kaufmann-style tearfully admit that any rumors doubting the reality of WWF wrestling moves are, well, fake news, as you can clearly see.

The whole thing is a WWF stunt to take audience share away from ISIS on the Middle Eastern carnage channels.

Should I run for political office in America and any personnel from this outfit, described below, accosts me with their mouths or otherwise come anywhere near me, the last thing they see will see is a machete heading for their necks.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/22/the-growth-of-sinclairs-conservative-media-empire

Jounalism as an institution is dead. The Supreme Court as an institution is dead. The Congress as an institution is dead. The Presidency is dead, but like a laugh track in a funeral parlor, the undertaker hasn't turned off the music yet.

But all of that is SO last week.

Mp is about to destroy the Federal Reserve for insufficient fealty to his foreskin.

Death threats targeting the Chairman and all of the Governors who vote to raise the fed funds rate further are being mobilized from the WWF office in the White House.

mp has been asking his staff about the time LBJ physically assaulted Fed Chairman William McChesney Martin by pushing him around a room at Johnson's Texas ranch and up against a wall over the finer points of Fed policy and wondering if the Khashoggi template should be put into play with Jerome Powell.

*the 18 are now 17, down one, as one of the murderers has already been snuffed Lee Harvey Oswald-style in a car accident. If I had to guess, I would say it was the individual who relayed mp's order to murder Khashoggi to the rest of the crew.

The Iron Sheik would use a Camel Clutch, not a body slam.

I decline to engage in some measure of serious disputation with... Marty.

I would like to take this opportunity to suggest the OBWI update its posting rules to more closely align ourselves with the corporate republican political Zeitgiest.

Make I suggest this list, surely not complete as it does not contain language regarding cake, as a template.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/22/ask-the-compliance-expert

Whatever we do, as we move for .. scratch that .. backward.. let us avoid letting our consciences be our guides, as that is counter to the direction the rest of the world is headed.

Thank you.

Khashoggi?

According to the Turks, which means maybe maybe not.

Who's setting up who? Hard to know which end is up these days.

Turns out I do this for my health after all:

https://www.balloon-juice.com/

What the victim had to say.

I'd say Marty is simply repeating bald faced lies.

But if being provoked is a justification for committing criminal acts of violence, then so be it. Women trying to enter abortion clinics are therefore fully entitled to the "stand your ground" defense and may justifiably undertake all measures, up to and including lethal force, to protect themselves.

Since it's an open thread, something completely different... Marriott will be opening a 1501-room hotel and convention center near Denver International Airport in December. They announced today that they have already booked more than a million room-nights. DIA proper has broken ground to add 39 additional gates. I am just... staggered every time I think about how much Front Range Colorado has grown since we moved here 30 years ago.

Have to put California expatriates somewhere...

I'd say Marty is simply repeating bald faced lies.

I don't know, I think that Marty gets called on something and he doesn't feel like he can back down. Others drop off and return after the kerfluffle, but Marty feels like he needs to keep swinging. I think you see this a lot on the internet, someone offers an opinion, someone else says no and then there is a flurry of googling to support the held opinion.

I'm sure it isn't helped by the fact that there is a cottage industry of pushing out alternative narratives. GIven the defenses Marty put forward for Gianforte, I wouldn't be surprised if he located the press release of Gianforte's campaign, which said

The Gianforte campaign initially blamed Jacobs for the incident, issuing a statement that falsely claimed the reporter “grabbed Greg’s wrist, and spun away from Greg, pushing them both to the ground”.

“It’s unfortunate that this aggressive behavior from a liberal journalist created this scene at our campaign volunteer BBQ,” campaign spokesman Shane Scanlon said in the statement.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/12/republican-greg-gianforte-sentenced-assaulting-guardian-reporter

After finding out that this narrative was rejected in a court of law, it then becomes, well, Gianforte didn't want to have to deal with all the work of refuting it, a mike was shoved in his face, any competent security detail would have done something similar. But this all goes back to the initial refusal to climb down. That's why there is the anger at extending the logic: the person who refuses to back down doesn't embrace the logic of punching someone out when they ask a question, even if it is unreasonable, and so the person gets angry when it is pointed out that this is what they are advocating. So we have the manufactured facts of an overzealous left wing reporter barging into a campaign hq and of course, they will be dealt with the security detail. But the whole point of the incident was that the "security detail" was Gianforte getting angry at a question that was posed to him.

I have to think that this is a pathology of a lot of Trump supporters, that the worst possible thing in the world is to be wrong. But it's not, it's refusing to acknowledge that you are wrong...

True. Colorado was one of the first places that began experiencing the California Diaspora. My friend the anthropologist tells me that that's actually a thing, not just anecdotes. I play with IRS and Census Bureau interstate migration numbers from time to time, and it's clear that the large majority of Californians who leave stay in western states.

LA to Denver isn't that much more of a drive than Thousand Oaks to SD when there's an accident on the Camp Pendleton stretch of the 5.

Are you sure all those expatriates are working in CO and not just stretch commuting?

People outside California just have no conception of what we accept as a "normal" commute. (Possibly because no sensible person would be willing to live with it. But there you are....)

Speaking of pathology, read Chapter 8 of Thomas Frank's "The Wrecking Crew", entitled "The Best Public Servant is the Worst One", which is merely a review of the conversative ebola the vermin call policy regarding civil servants.

We keep having to review this stuff every decade or so, just as we keep seeing tax cuts sold as revenue enhancers, when they are deficit increasers to hasten total bankruptcy of the Federal Government.

This is my LAST time living thru this fucking shit.

This time around we savagely and violently terminate the entire republican/conservative movement.

When I was doing technology due diligence for a large company in Denver, one of the least attractive parts of it was that I was often told to get on the plane in Denver at 7:00 am, land pretty much anywhere along the West Coast by 8:00 am local time, make a 10:00 meeting, spend the day tripping up their engineers, then fly back to Denver and be in my own bed by 10:30 pm.

The next day was always painful, as my body insisted that it had been ripped out of the space-time continuum and then jammed back in.

I interpreted the body language of some of those engineers as indicating that their trip in for the meeting wasn't much easier than mine.

lj...this may have some relationship to your last entry.

JanieM: I am going offline. You all have fun now.

I hope Janie is talking about only a short break from the endless loop of "I hate Trump but I support his (Republican) policies".

For my part, ridiculing Marty is my chief recreation -- nay, my mission in life.

My immediate tactical objective on this mission is to keep Marty commenting here. His own words do far more to discredit the Republican/conservative POV than any snark I can muster. Far from hoping to change his mind about anything, I look forward to further and better particulars of Marty's deplorable views.

--TP

Ah, capitalism.

"Leaving The Bay Area was created to help Bay Area residents simplify the process of selling their home, purchasing elsewhere and managing the move details.

"We are a collective network of experienced Local and Nationwide real estate professionals specializing in helping Bay Area homeowners sell their home and relocate to a new city seamlessly."
Leaving The Bay Area

Why Californians tend to stay in the West comes up in various conversations I am in from time to time. My friend the anthropologist and his wife the ethnographer claim that the West is defined by its suburbs, and the suburbs of every major metro area in the West are more like each other than they are like anything east of the Great Plains. My wife says humidity aversion. I am more childish, and claim that once you live somewhere that you see something like this from time to time, you're unwilling to give it up.

"Ah, capitalism"

Ya mean where you cash in your inflated estate values that have driven the poor and middle classes into total unaffordability in one area and you take your inflated dollars to another area and create another inflated real estate market that drives the poor and middle classes into total unaffordability there as well.

Ah, piss on that.

Denver seems gorgeous. But I stay in Charlottesville. Because:

This.

Then this.

Turning to this.

And then this.

I've been so lucky to live in America. It was nice when I was younger and thought that we all realized how much there is here to share.

I see that my first link doesn't work, even though I checked it. That's okay, I'll try another.

Or google for images of "fall in Charlottesville". It's not easy to beat the beauty here.

The USA has infinite beauty. I hope that its people can step up to match it.

Well, that's enough. lj, I cant find it right now but I simply read a description of what happened, no grabbing a hand.

But, as the counterpoint to JanieM, I've had enough. I came here, and stayed, because a conversation broke out every now and then. Not anymore.

For lots longer than my life simple conservative versus liberal versus whatever discussions have been had, often vehemently, even between friends.

I am not really even all that far right. But each round here gets more personal, more judgemental and less communicative. Every set of comments more vitriolic. I cant even imagine what it will be like in 4 weeks.

There is certainly no voice of moderation left here. When I first came there was this offbeat guy who wrote aggressively, but served a purpose, I always read his stuff first. Then there was russell, moderation personified, i did not always agree with him but always felt he had an understanding of all sides of a discussion.

Lots of others along the way, but now I'm just irritated all the time. Nothing is discussable, everything is the end of the world, unless you do x you are y. There is no spectrum, it's our way or the highway. And beyond that, it's just one attack after another. And I play sometimes, shame on me.

I have struggled with this over the last few months, but I have decided that its enough. I dont want to be the foil, I dont want to try to create more positive dialog, and I sure dont want to think of myself as being as hostile as I am sometimes.

So I'm taking me back from this. I'm nicer, more thoughtful, actually more liberal and a better human being than I can be here.

I dont want to be this.


I dont want to be this.

I don't want you to be this either, Marty. But you are.

I dont want to be this.

i suspect a lot of us can tell. but then you end up defending Trump/ism. and it just seems crazy.

you'll be welcomed back, if you choose to come back.

Sorry to see you going, Marty, and if my analysis of what I saw the problems of your argumentation about Gianforte was the reason you are leaving, I'm sorry, but that's what I see. And I do agree with cleek's point.

About the link that bobbyp points to, the original piece it is from is worth a read as is anything else by Lili Loofbourow

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/anger-in-america-trumpism-incivility.html

I thought of posting it here, but I didn't, not because I didn't agree with it, but because who she is writing to and for is, at least it seems to be, to not be the crowd we have here.

But do read the whole thing, it is quite interesting.

Ah, capitalism realators! Always willing to assist those who shall pay our both-ways commissions!

I posted a link to the Lili Loofboirow article a few days back, as I thought it spoke deeply about the couple of things we’ve been talking about more or less constantly for the last year or so.
And yes, Trump is a rage machine.

And Marty, I don’t think you’re far right at all. The source of my own frustration is your apparent lack of skepticism about what revolves around what has become the party of Trump.

I posted a link to the Lili Loofboirow article a few days back

And misspelled her name today... my early morning iPad typing isn't always accurate.

And I have to say, in all fairness to Marty, I find some of the Count's recent posts unreadable, too. I understand the rhetorical stance, and sympathise with where it's coming from, but it is simply not for me.

Personally, I see the developments Marty describes as a highly regrettable consequence of the extreme polarisation brought about by the Trump phenomenon. Of course, polarisation has been growing in the US (and the UK) for a while now, but Trump has acted like an incredible accelerant, and stretched people's tolerance on every side so thin that it breaks.

Marty, I'm sorry you're going, and I hope you find your way back here in due course.

Trump's gone Nationalist

Speaking at Ted Cruz's rally in Texas, Trump rails against "globalism", then tells the crowd: "There's this word -- nationalist. I'm not supposed to use it, but I'm a nationalist. I'm a nationalist."

Then tells the crowd to use the word: "Use it, use it."

this is fine

This is a twitter thread worth reading about our "nationalist" party.

Not to be too politically correct or anything, but the hate campaign against Soros seems to be going a bit too far.

I wonder, if we suspected administration involvement, whether the Supreme Court would allow an investigation to go forward.

The Supreme Court doesn't seem to want to find out any bad news about Wilbur Ross.

And Democrats might not win the House after all.

This election means everything.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/man-arrested-for-groping-woman-tells-cops-trump-says-its-ok?via=newsletter&source=CSAMedition

Marty: these are not normal times. We could have a vigorous but civil debate about the merits of Reaganomics for example. But not about supporting a fascist monster.

Trayvon Martin is dead.

Gianforte is a U.S. Representative from the largest district in the state of Montana

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/10/21/sasse-trump-praise-gianforte-assault/1722593002/

Playful?

Remind me again whose feelings are supposed to be hurt?

It's my fault the reporter caused Gianforte to commit the crime of assault.

It's my fault a conservative is trying to murder George Soros.

It's my fault Khashoggi is in pieces.

It's my fault an elderly black woman is called a nigger on an airplane.

It's my fault another is grabbed by the crotch on another flight.

It's my fault Kavanaugh drank himself to the point of aggravated assault numerous times and yet became the boss of everyone.

It's my fault a playful monster is losing little Latin American kids so badly that their parents may never see them again.

It's my fault that boys are proud and want to make up for it by beating the shit out of anyone who looks askance at fascist pride.

It's my fault Mike Pence's wife isn't on her hands and knees in Indiana licking up gasoline that leaked from faulty gas stations instead of keeping an eagle eye for women who might jump her husband's hot bones.

It's my fault blacks are niggers.

It's my fault Hispanics are rapists and animals.

It's my fault Jews are rapacious Democrats.

It's my fault women are unknowing temptresses with every slight breeze that swishes their skits.

Texas is my fault.

It's my fault Vlad Putin and mp stole a Presidential election.

I don't know whose fault the Emancipation Proclamation was but all signs are pointing to me and Karl Marx.

I plead guilty.

Now leave me the fuck alone.

I quit!


To be clear, it's Barack Obama's fault that the stock market is on the verge today of crashing.

A crash should seal the fate commie liberals in November and maybe account for the mysterious disappearance the Fed Chairman in a wood chipper malfunction.

Now, for pity's sake, get off my back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqSTXuJeTks

The nuclear football was dropped during the ensuing tussle and rolled under Lincoln's bed in the White House, but a quick-thinking federal employee ... a union member ... retrieved it with a deft tuck and roll before Barron mp could swipe it and start making collect calls on the thing:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/kelly-grabbed-lewandowski-collar-shoved

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/following-trumps-lead-gop-leans-hard-into-culture-wars-in-closing-ads

I say give the Republican Party what they want, rivers of liberal, Hispanic, black, female, and Jewish blood in the streets.

There WILL be blood.

Be careful of my feelings in any response you may have.

Never mind. I'm outta here.

I dont want to be this.

I think it's not unusual for people to "be something" online that is not what they are, or want to be, in normal daily life. I have to do a head check daily to make sure, or attempt to make sure, that I'm not being a complete dick in my online participation.

Your counterparty is just words on a page, not a real person standing in front of you.

I know that I'm much more confrontational here than I am in daily life, and I'm not always comfortable with it. Either with the behavior itself, or with the ease with which I slip into it.

The times are out of joint. And, so are we all.

I echo cleek's 9:48.

This election means everything.

No. It doesn't.

The (D)'s will probably make progress in the House. The might even achieve a majority. Or, they might not.

The (R)'s will probably hold the Senate. They might not, they probably will.

And Clickbait will still be POTUS.

Mueller will deliver his findings to Rosenstein. Rosenstein will... do something with them. We might never know or see what Mueller found.

If the (D)'s take the House, they will probably follow up with further investigation.

Those are the likely outcomes. This election is not going to magically transform the present circumstances. It might, and hopefully will, provide an incremental improvement.

This election has to be followed up with consistent ongoing engagement at community, city, county, state, and national levels. People have to get off of their asses, get involved, and stay involved.

If they do that, over time - a generation - things will turn around.

It took more than one election to get where we are. It will take more than one election to get someplace else.

All of that said, steady on, and let's all make sure we get our @sses to the polls.

Members, don't get weary.

What the count said at 9:15.

Except, I don't quit.

It took more than one election to get where we are. It will take more than one election to get someplace else.

I know this isn't exactly what you were getting at with the above, russell. But what bothers me, as a fundamental problem - of which Trump may merely be a symptom, or may be a contributing cause - is the number of people in this country who are willing to believe such things as the migrant caravan being created as a plot by Democrats and that it consists in part of Middle Eastern terrorists. That problem, while it manifests itself in our politics in a very problematic way, goes beyond politics.

Some number of people have always been willing to believe patently ridiculous things. Maybe that number, percentage-wise, hasn't actually changed, but has only become more apparent for various reasons. I certainly didn't know (or didn't know I knew) so many of them some number of years ago.

In all seriousness, I worry for my children more than ever because of this.

Look what I have gone and done:

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/10/take-skinheads-bowling

Last thing I remember, honest to God, was Martin Luther King falling on the Memphis motel balcony .. and then I bought a Toyota, it wasn't even a Prius ... and then everything went sort of brown, black, and yella and then ... THIS.

It wasn't until hate for the OTHER, always simmering down low, began to be organized and transmitted, in a playful way to be sure, from the top down that things fell apart for the Tutsis and the Pygmy Batwa:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide

Grover Norquist and Jack Abramoff were consulted on the mass importation of machetes, via private contractors, of course, to Rwanda.

Apparently something I wrote here at OBWI set Norquist off.

Some number of people have always been willing to believe patently ridiculous things. Maybe that number, percentage-wise, hasn't actually changed, but has only become more apparent for various reasons.

Ailes and Murdoch figured out how to reliably attract and hold them, in order to make them all vibrate at the same frequency.

shit magnets, i think is the technical term.

I mistakenly left all of the faggot/LGMT in this country off my catalog at 9:15am of those whose fates at the hands of vermin at the top is my fault.

I apologize.

I'll quit supporting the LGMT community here so that my support is not taken as a signal by the mp republican party to kill all of you.

Ya know, rabid dogs sometimes mistake the smell of empathy for the smell of fear and will tear our throats out.

I'm going to keep my empathy in the closet for now so I don't cause even more trouble for the Other.

russell: ... I know that I'm much more confrontational here than I am in daily life, and I'm not always comfortable with it.
...
People have to get off of their asses, get involved, and stay involved.

Can we avoid the inherent tension between "involvement" and "confrontation"?

For me, voting is a given. Writing to my (Dem) congresswoman and my (Dem) senators, and donating a few bucks to (Dem) candidates, counts as involvement, I suppose, and is certainly non-confrontational. But does it change anybody's mind about anything?

Going around knocking on doors to Get Out The Vote begins to meet the definition of confrontation. Pestering the apathetic, however politely, to vote -- and vote right -- can be perceived as confrontation. Marching in a rally -- especially a counter-rally -- is at least meant to be confrontational. And talking politics at work, in a bar, at the market, on the golf course or in church (whichever you spend Sunday mornings at), is clearly confrontational.

I know, I know: we can disagree politely and respectfully and all that. So it used to be, anyhow. Supposedly.

Still, effective involvement requires overcoming opposition from those who are "involved" on the other side. One way or another, it eventually boils down to "confrontation".

--TP

I'm going to try and be less aggressive with my empathy.

I don't want Ben Sasse to think I'm hiding a vagina somewhere on my person:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/women-labeled-aggressive-face-a-double-standard-at-work-2018-10-23?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

Mueller will deliver his findings to Rosenstein. Rosenstein will... do something with them. We might never know or see what Mueller found.

Mueller will very likely continue to do what he’s been doing, and deliver his findings in the indictments he brings. Congress and/or the administration doesn’t get to sit on those.

That problem, while it manifests itself in our politics in a very problematic way, goes beyond politics

Actually, that *is* exactly what I'm talking about.

The country is messed up. Profoundly. And the folks driving the bus are fostering and exploiting the very worst impulses to get their way.

Voting helps, because it can take the wheel out of their hands. But it takes a hell of a lot longer, and a hell of a lot more work, to change what people think.

And hell yeah, some confrontation is no doubt involved.

Decent humans can run but they can't hide from murderous, drought-inducing, starvation-causing right-wingers worldwide. Everywhere you turn, nothing but filth:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/forget-trump-hysteria-heres-how-the-migrant-caravan-crisis-really-began?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning

We have no alternative to confrontation. Until and unless the decent conservatives wrest back control of the GOP from the hands of the nationalistic demagogues bent on forcing a confrontation and reaffirm their commitment to working with those with whom they disagree, we will continue hurtling towards armed conflict and the dissolution of the United States.

In his landmark book, On Killing Grossman describes the psychological process that breaks an individual and makes it possible for him to participate in atrocities:

In these execution situations strong forces of moral distance, social distance, cultural distance, group absolution, close proximity, and obedience-demanding authority all join to compel the soldier to execute, overcoming the forlorn forces of his natural and learned decency and his natural resistance to killing.

Each soldier who actively or passively [emphasis mine] participates in such mass executions is faced with a stark choice. On the one hand, the soldier can resist the incredibly powerful array of forces that call for him to kill, and he will instantly be denied by his nation, his leaders, and his friends and will most likely be executed along with the other victims of this horror. On the other hand, the soldier can bow before the social and psychological forces that demand that he kill, and in doing so he will be strangely empowered.(209)

We have been seeing this mass psychology of the loyalty test going on for years on the fringes of the right. Trump is the first candidate to openly embrace this principle and use it to shore up his support in mass rallies. He has been compelling those around him to break their social taboos and follow his lead.

This is a prelude to mass violence and conditioning to dehumanize the enemy.

Of course there will be confrontation. But will there be enough? And will the confrontation be the right sort to avoid breaking the social contract entirely and irrevocably? That remains to be seen.

Recognizing that it's happening, and calling it what it is, is an important first step. Thank you, nous. This is what we're facing.

Yeah, but, kids, it's just playfulness, a bit of harmless drollery on the part of the stand-up comedian-in-Chief and his fellow entertainers in the murderous republican party:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi7iyHTJ8Q&bpctr=1540314493

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwXUyMT-pxI

a little dreamy soft shoe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqyQfjDScjU

a little, how you say, jocularity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbiAUDypb4Q

The set-up is "Batter up!" Wait for that punchline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH9EYZHoVU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLZNj_9sPgI

We'll go around the table and each one of you may lick my balls.

You notice anyone at either of those tables raising a timid hand and suggesting Capone take ball four and be done with it?

We're dealing with pure, unmitigated, murderous EVIL.

Usually, the elections come AFTER the genocide and the truth and reconciliation proceedings.

America thinks it can do those things in reverse.

Yeah, but, kids, it's just playfulness, a bit of harmless drollery on the part of the stand-up comedian-in-Chief and his fellow entertainers in the murderous republican party:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi7iyHTJ8Q&bpctr=1540314493

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwXUyMT-pxI

a little dreamy soft shoe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqyQfjDScjU

a little, how you say, jocularity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbiAUDypb4Q

The set-up is "Batter up!" Wait for that punchline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH9EYZHoVU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLZNj_9sPgI

We'll go around the table and each one of you may lick my balls.

You notice anyone at either of those tables raising a timid hand and suggesting Capone take ball four and be done with it?

We're dealing with pure, unmitigated, murderous EVIL.

Usually, the elections come AFTER the genocide and the truth and reconciliation proceedings.

America thinks it can do those things in reverse.

It bears repeating.

If they do that, over time - a generation - things will turn around.

It took more than one election to get where we are. It will take more than one election to get someplace else.

Considering that the sustained effort by the far right to get us here took over half a century, it will hardly be surprising if the recovery is less than instantaneous. Even a single generation (25 - 30 years) seems . . . optimistic. Alas.

Nigel: Mueller will very likely continue to do what he’s been doing, and deliver his findings in the indictments he brings. Congress and/or the administration doesn’t get to sit on those.

More indictments, sure. And if some of those indicted follow Manafort and plead Not Guilty, there may be trials where the actual evidence goes on the public record. (Something we miss with a Guilty plea.)

But it seems likely that Mueller will follow current Justice Department policy and not indict the President -- almost no matter what he finds and can prove. That goes in a report, which we may or may not get to see. You kinda gotta hope for a leak, unless the Democrats take the House and get subpoena power to drag it forth from Rosenstein's successor. Over, no doubt, loud claims of Executive Privilege.

But it takes a hell of a lot longer, and a hell of a lot more work, to change what people think.

Do we have any information on Murdoch's heirs' personal enthusiasm for the far right? I wouldn't expect them to abandon the money-spinner that is Fox News. But it occurs to me that, without Rupert's kind of dedication to the cause, the more rabid bits might get phased out. Which would help enormously.

wj: Considering that the sustained effort by the far right to get us here took over half a century, it will hardly be surprising if the recovery is less than instantaneous. Even a single generation (25 - 30 years) seems . . . optimistic. Alas.

"A single generation" means "the rest of our lives, if we live that long".

But never mind that. The notion of "recovery" implicitly assumes that public attitudes can slowly change and shift political power away from the "nationalists". And that implicitly assumes a normal, healthy set of political institutions within which The Pendulum can swing back and forth. But what happens if the Nationalists nail The Pendulum solidly to the far right by stealing SCOTUS seats, gerrymandering districts, suppressing votes, paying off domestic plutocrats, collaborating with foreign autocrats, and empowering the tiki-torchers?

To make a different analogy: are we trudging through a valley, or have we tumbled off a cliff?

--TP

With Republicans and Democrats retreating to their ideological corners, there's room for Libertarians to enter the ring. :)

Some number of self-identifying libertarians are already part of the "conservative" Trump coalition.

"A single generation" means "the rest of our lives, if we live that long".

Nope. A generation is defined as the average age of the parents of a child. When women typically started having children at 20, and had their last child at 30, that made "a generation" 25 years. As more women put off starting families until they are in their 30s, the average has move; it's currently more like 30.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/check-this-out-9

I hope Guiliani samples the Novichok canapes during the break.

I'm not waiting a generation for my front-row seat to his execution by firing squad.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/20/trump-us-nuclear-arms-treaty-russia

https://nypost.com/2018/10/22/russia-warns-of-new-arms-race-if-trump-pulls-out-of-nuclear-deal/

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4756833/presidents-trump-putin-meet-paris-john-bolton

Follow the bouncing ball. Think evilly like the diabolical corrupt fucks do.

The entire thing is a setup arranged by mp and putin to help republican vermin during the November election.

mp threatens. Putin threatens back. mp goes to Paris and saves the day as Putin fakes relenting. Putin looks good too.

Kabuki bullshit to steal another election.

How old are you, wj?

71

That means I can remember Eisenhower, but wasn't old enough to vote for him. (I also have a vivid memory of TV news clips showing the US Army in Little Rock enforcing the Supreme Court order to desegregate the high school. It made an impression, obviously, even on a 10 year old.)

wj,

I did not know you're over 70. That may explain why you missed the point of my "rest of our lives" clause. Hairshirt, being younger than we are, got it I think :)

--TP

So you don't think a generation from now is more or less the rest of your life?

Back to thinking about the plague of nationalism, I think that this Chris Hedges anti-nationalist meditation at Truth Dig holds up well, even if Hedges himself has fallen a bit too deeply into his role as Prophet of Doom of late:

Human societies see what they want to see. They create national myths of identity out of a composite of historical events and fantasy. They ignore unpleasant facts that intrude on self-glorification. They trust naively in the notion of linear progress and in assured national dominance. This is what nationalism is about — lies. And if a culture loses its ability for thought and expression, if it effectively silences dissident voices, if it retreats into what Sigmund Freud called “screen memories,” those reassuring mixtures of fact and fiction, it dies. It surrenders its internal mechanism for puncturing self-delusion. It makes war on beauty and truth. It abolishes the sacred. It turns education into vocational training. It leaves us blind. And this is what has occurred. We are lost at sea in a great tempest. We do not know where we are. We do not know where we are going. And we do not know what is about to happen to us.

I'll be 71 in a few weeks. I can remember overhearing talk about the Korean War. Possibly because there was some talk that post-WWII veterans like my father might be recalled to duty.

Any more Martys leave and we're going to be in demographic trouble around here.

I'm 67 just recently but I get points deducted on account of I'm immature for my age.

I love this headline:

"Google, Facebook and Twitter staff donate heavily to Democrats | Kelly, Lewandowski got into near brawl"

I'm 61 and immature for any age. But I'm pompous enough to make up for it.

Ten years ago, I noted that Barack Obama was the first presidential candidate I ever voted for who was younger than me. That was my first inkling that I'm over the hill.

--TP

So you don't think a generation from now is more or less the rest of your life?

Not really.

But then my plan (for some time now) is to take a checkpoint at 150, and see how I think things are going. (That's going for me personally, physically, etc.) Which is still a couple of generations out.

I like the way you think, wj.

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