A shitshow for the ages

by liberal japonicus

From this
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-turks-have-tapes

The Post is reporting that Turkish officials have told their US counterparts that they have audio and video recordings that prove Jamal Khashoggi was killed in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. It appears that the claimed video evidence is more circumstantial. The audio evidence would appear to be from listening devices either within or targeting the compound. According to the Post, the tapes the Turks claim to have essentially have the audio of Khoshoggi being interrogated, tortured and then finally killed.

As the Post describes it, the Turks are extremely leery of sharing the evidence. And it’s not clear they’ve shared it with the US, as opposed to describe it to their US counterparts. It’s a dicey situation. They clearly don’t want to out themselves or at least out the ways they bug diplomatic compounds.

I like Josh Marshall, but here, he seems a little dense. Might the reason the Turks are leery of sharing is because of this?

“That would be a very sad thing, and we’ll probably know in the very short future,” Trump replied. “We have incredible people and incredible talent working on it. We don’t like it. I don’t like it. No good.”

Trump later told reporters at the White House that he wasn’t open to stopping arms sales to Saudi Arabia because “this took place in Turkey and to the best of our knowledge, Khashoggi is not a United States citizen.”

And maybe a dash of this?

As suspicions that the Saudis had killed Khashoggi mounted, the top US diplomat in Riyadh met with MBS and requested an explanation. MBS responded by demanding a call directly with the White House. That’s the Bolton/Kushner call. As a former Trump White House official told Politico, his insistence on talking directly to the White House “indicate[d MBS was] hoping to leverage his close ties with Kushner and others in Trump’s inner circle to avoid repercussions.”

When I heard this I wondered whether MBS really demanded a call with both men or really just wanted to talk to Kushner. Another report CNN published today provides another clue.

While bin Salman reached out specifically to Kushner, his established White House interlocutor, to deny the accusations, national security adviser John Bolton also joined the call, and later, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo had his own conversation with the crown prince.

Clearly the Crown Prince wanted to talk directly to Kushner and apparently only to Kushner. The writing here is ambiguous. But the details suggest Bolton was on the call as something like a minder. That may be too adverse a read. Maybe Kushner realized how delicate a situation it was and wanted Bolton on the call too. Regardless, MBS wanted to go right to Jared, a man who has strongly advocated for him and with whom he has apparently had numerous back-channel conversations out of earshot of the US government.

It seems to me that an equally likely possibility is the Turks aren't going to share the info because they think Trump will hand it over to the Saudis.

Nixon resigned because a bunch of Cubans busted into the Democratic headquarters and a pair of Washington Post reporters found out. Given the way the world has been working, it would be totally expected if Trump gets impeached because a Saudi death squad killed a columnist for the WaPo.

Comments

[Nigel]

It's not as though Trump hasn't indicated a certain degree of acquiescence about journalist murders before...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/02/04/oreilly-told-trump-that-putin-is-a-killer-trumps-reply-you-think-our-countrys-so-innocent/

Trump doubled down on his “respect” for Putin — even in the face of accusations that Putin and his associates have murdered journalists and dissidents in Russia.

“I do respect him. Well, I respect a lot of people, but that doesn’t mean I’ll get along with them,” Trump told O'Reilly.
O'Reilly pressed on, declaring to the president that “Putin is a killer.”
Unfazed, Trump didn't back away, but rather compared Putin's reputation for extrajudicial killings with the United States'.
“There are a lot of killers. We have a lot of killers,” Trump said. “Well, you think our country is so innocent?”

It wouldn't be the first time Trump has brushed aside the topic of Putin's political killings.
In a 2015 interview on “Morning Joe,” Trump was pressed on the same issue and gave a similar answer.
“He kills journalists that don't agree with him,” the show's host, Joe Scarborough, pointed out.
“Well, I think that our country does plenty of killing, too, Joe,” Trump said...

[Nigel]

The centrality of Kushner in the relationship with Saudi Arabia is interesting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/opinion/jared-kushner-conspiracy-fraud.html
According to reports, Mr. Mueller appears to be assessing whether Mr. Kushner, in the guise of pursuing foreign policy on behalf of the United States, was actually serving the interests of his family and foreign governments.

On Tuesday, The Washington Post reported that “officials in at least four countries” — United Arab Emirates, China, Israel and Mexico — “have privately discussed ways they can manipulate” Mr. Kushner by taking advantage of his “complex business arrangements, financial difficulties and lack of foreign policy experience.” The president gave his son-in-law an expansive foreign policy role, including an effort to negotiate peace between Israel and the Palestinians. The implication in the article is that the United States government has intercepted communications of foreign leaders talking about ways they could take advantage of Mr. Kushner, whose family real estate empire is facing substantial debt woes...

[Ugh]

Someone commented, maybe here, that the Saudi regime makes Iran look like a Scandinavian democracy, from a social policy/freedom standpoint.

But hey, oil and military bases y'all

[bobbyp]

We invaded the wrong country. Worse, we did it TWICE.

Doh!

[Nigel]

I've never really understood why the US hasn't sought to make Iran its ally in the region in preference to Saudi Arabia. (Obviously not under Trump - MBS is precisely the kind of character to appeal to him.)

There is, after all, some cultural inclination towards democracy in Iran, however unpleasant the current regime.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"I've never really understood why the US hasn't sought to make Iran its ally"

Reagan tried. Trading hostages, arms, money, all that stuff.

Not sure why the modern GOP is so anti-Reagan.

[Ugh]

There was a chance to thaw relations with Iran after 9/11 but instead we got the whole "Axis of Evil™" BS

It's unbelievable that we're still paying a huge price for the CIA helping to overthrow Mosaddegh, 65 years later....

[Girl from the North Country]

It's unbelievable that we're still paying a huge price for the CIA helping to overthrow Mosaddegh, 65 years later....

FWIW, Iranians (at least those with long memories) blame us just as much or even more than you guys, and pay us the dubious compliment of seeing us as masters of Machiavellian manipulation and duplicity into the bargain. Reminds me (I think I've mentioned it here before in another context) of my grandfather, who apparently never referred to England except as "England, the whore."

[novakant]

Ervand Abrahamian: "The Coup" is a very enlightening history of the British and US involvement in Persia / Iran from 1901 to 1953.

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/ervand-abrahamian/coup-1953/

[Sebastian H]

Yes considering Trump leaked Israeli intelligence I don’t have any trouble believing he’d do the same to Turkish intelligence. Though at this point the info that they have it is out there. They might as well release something and pretend that is all they have (like maybe just audio even if they have video).

[wj]

it’s not clear they’ve shared it with the US, as opposed to describe it to their US counterparts. It’s a dicey situation.

It's dicey precisely because

It seems to me that an equally likely possibility is the Turks aren't going to share the info because they think Trump will hand it over to the Saudis.

Nobody with any sense is going to share intelligence data with us. At least, not unless we somehow assure them that Trump will never get anywhere near it.

[wj]

Also, what Nigel and Ugh said.

There are reasons to have reservations about Iran's theocracy. But compared to Saudi Arabia, they are our kind of people to a far, far greater extent.

[JakeB]

One of the reasons the theocracy has been so successful in keeping its power, after all, is being able to rely on the fact that everyone appears to be out to get Iran.

Were the US to stop threatening them so much and so often, that would begin to take away that particular pressure.

But I understand quite well that that isn't the kind of big-dick diplomacy that is all that apparently works in this world, if you listen to very serious people.

[worn]

"I've never really understood why the US hasn't sought to make Iran its ally in the region in preference to Saudi Arabia..."

Nigel - During the Cold War years, between the overthrow of mossadegh and the 1979 Revolution, Iran was very much considered an ally, our strongest in region after Israel. What I remember from reading Gary Sick's 'All Fall Down" in college was that during this period there was almost no military hardware that we would not sell to Iran, the country being considered part of the bulwark against Soviet expansion. These links look to back up my memory:

http://www.iranreview.org/content/Documents/U_S_Policy_on_Arm_Sales_to_Iran_during_Nixon%E2%80%99s_Administration.htm

https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-06-01/where-did-iran-get-its-military-arms-over-last-70-years

https://coldwarstudies.com/2010/06/07/the-nixon-approach-iran-and-iraq/

"Reagan tried. Trading hostages, arms, money, all that stuff..."

Snarki - This isn't quite right. My family was friends with Robert Pastor, who was on the NSC during the Carter Administration. for a time, he and his family lived a street over from us in Atlanta. I only mention this, because my father, who was the Managing Editor of the AJC back then, and Dr. Pastor had more than one conversation that I listened to regarding the Reagan campaign's October Surprise. This is where Saint Ronnie promised to (illegally) sell Iran the parts they needed to keep all the military hardware they had bought from us in operable condition, (especially the fighter planes). So it was really a quid pro quo situation, not an effort at re-establishing the alliance, which would have been politically impossible circa 1980, whether Reagan had desired it or not. Later, this back channel provided Saint Ronnie with an off-the-books means to circumvent laws of the country, both via selling military hardware to an avowed enemy, as well as providing covert funding for paramilitary groups in Central America. The latter was also against the law. But everyone knows this, of course.

After typing all the above, I am left hoping your comment wasn't just snark :)

[worn]

So many parallels the the current crop of malfeasants occupying the Oval Office and the machinations that got them there...

[wj]

Immediately after the Shah was overthrown, there was no way for Iran and the US to remain allies. Not only was the Shah (not Iran, per se, but the Shah) our ally. But because we were the ones who had installed him, the new Iranian government couldn't have stayed our allies even if they had wanted to.

But by 2001, the situation had evolved. When we were preparing to invade Afghanistan, the Iranian government volunteered to give us logistical free passage. Understandably, since the Taliban were (and are) Sunni fanatics who hate the Shia, i.e. the Iranians even more than they hate us. We didn't even give they the courtesy of a reply. Presumably because, even though we were about to attack Iraq which had been fighting Iran for a decade, we cared more about being allied with the Saudis. Instead we opted to go thru Pakistan, in return for huge payments -- which went to the Pakistani SIS . . . which used it to subsidize the Taliban! It may be our worse policy error in the Middle East since we overthrew the Iranian government in 1953.

Someday, I think it's inevitable that we'll get back to allying with Iran. They are, after all, civilized in ways that the Saudis can't even imagine yet. Not to mention the detail that Saudi subjects ("citizens" seems inaccurate) have committed numerous acts of terrorism against us; and those inspired by mosques funded by the Saudis account for many of the rest. Whereas Iranians? Not a factor in terrorism against the US. (The Israelis are a different story. But Israel these days has dubious value as an ally -- which looks unlikely to change any time soon**.)

** Netanyahu is appalling (unless you're Trump or a maximamist Zionist). And his chief rival/potential successor is even more committed to Greater Israel and Palestinian Bantustans (only because straight up genocide would be awkward).

[Girl from the North Country]

And don't forget that the Shah's government was hated internally because of the suppression practised by Savak, his secret police. So his overthrow, if I remember correctly, caused rejoicing and the return of Khomeini as a returning hero. It took a little while before the urban population (the rural population were and have remained much more fundamentalist) and particularly women realised they were out of the frying pan and into the (arguably much worse) fire. Unfortunately, the US consistently failed to take advantage of this and make alliances, as various people point out above.

p.s. Remembering Savak, and by extension BOSS, takes me right back!

[liberal japonicus]

This may be related to the OP

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-jr-boosts-smear-tying-missing-journalist-jamal-khashoggi-to-islamic-terrorism

[wj]

When you consider the Trump family fondness for accusing others of things that they have been doing themselves, it might suggest that they have been supporting terrorists. At this point, not sure that will surprise anyone.

[liberal japonicus]

And this from the Guardian about the disappearance itself

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/12/how-jamal-khashoggi-disappeared-visual-guide

[liberal japonicus]

wj, it's hard for me to tell if it's projection or if it's total flailing.

And I wonder if this is related

https://www.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-praise-jared-kushner-ivanka-resign-2018-10

As Trevor Noah noted, Haley's exit was so drama free it was suspicious.

[wj]

lj, I don't think it's projection exactly. More a matter of limited imagination driving them to use stuff they are familiar with in their accusations. Just because they can't come up with something new on their own.

[wj]

A question to ponder:
Will you work for a murderer?

[JanieM]

A question to ponder:

Will you continue to stay in a party that stands for this?

[wj]

I take your point, Janie. But allow me to observe that the same question could be phrased as:
Will you continue to stay in a country that stands for this?

To which the answer, for most us anyway, is Damn right, I'm gonna stay and fight to fix this mess.

[russell]

So many parallels the the current crop of malfeasants occupying the Oval Office

I mark the beginning of the decline of the United States to be the presidency of Richard Milhous Nixon, and I mark the institutionalization of that decline to be the presidency of Ronald "nine most terrifying words" Reagan.

Needless to say, St. Ronnie was not my guy.

All of that said, to my knowledge Reagan did not indulge in the kind of shameless bare-faced grift that the current occupants appear to see as their due.

So, advantage Reagan.

[russell]

Damn right, I'm gonna stay and fight to fix this mess.

Your party may prove to be an impediment.

We all make our choices.

[JanieM]

That's a pretty bogus equivalence, wj. To change your party requires you to register as a Democrat. To change your nation requires.....a bit more. And may not even be possible for most people. The sacrifice involved is not remotely comparable.

[JanieM]

And further, it's far more arguable that our nation as a whole does *not* stand for murderous theiving torturing thuggery -- given that more than half of us didn't vote for these monsters. I don't see how it's arguable at this point that this isn't exactly what the R party stands for, top to bottom.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Blasey Ford and her family are under violent siege at the hands of Republican Party cadres, expressly summoned by elected Republican murderers to intimidate her:

https://www.google.com/search?q=blasey+ford+can%27t+come+outside&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&oq=blasey+ford+can%27t+come+outside&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.14881j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Feinstein may be shot in the head soon, because you capture one guy but the stinking republican militias, armed by the terrorist NRA, are setting up on every grassy knoll in America:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/california-man-charged-feinstein-threat

mp ordered the murder and dismemberment of journalist Khashoggi.

mp ordered the murder and dismemberment of journalist Khashoggi.

mp ordered the murder and dismemberment of journalist Khashoggi.

mp ordered the murder and dismemberment of journalist Khashoggi.

ALL republicans were willing co-conspirators in the murder, though some of the vermin preferred an acid bath for the corpse rather than dismemberment, citing the risk and expense, always budget-conscious they are, of carrying the body parts from the Embassy to the van. And what do we do with the chain saw?

What is required in America and throughout the world when it comes to the monsters of the conservative movement, are the savage means of REDUCTION.

Brazil, Hungary, Romania, the Philippines, Moscow, Saudi Arabia, will be the proving grounds for the savage means of worldwide conservative Reduction.

Norwegian murderer Anders Behring Breivik made a list of demands during his nationalist bloodletting.

That list is now the boilerplate agenda of the fucking vermin conservative movement throughout the world.

mp asked his towelboy and political strategist at Mar-a-Lago during the 2016 campaign: "Hey kid, .... what's yer name? .... I'm down to two choices for my in-house immigration Czar, Anders Breivik, doing very very good work over there in one of those Aryan countries, and this up and coming American conservative and glue-eater, Stephen Miller I've had my eye on. What do ya think, Einstein? While you are thinking, now refold all of those towels so my monogram is clearly visible, ya putz. You know what that stitching cost me?"

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/teacher-glue-eating-habit-miller-suspended

I guess teachers no longer have First Amendment rights in pig fuck conservative America. If she'd refused to decorate a cake for the high school Glee Club pageant, she'd be a fucking FOX martyr, amirite?

[wj]

russell: Your party may prove to be an impediment.

We all make our choices.

Just to be clear, if it's a matter of country or party (and sadly it looks increasingly like it may be), that's not even a question. The party goes.

Janie: That's a pretty bogus equivalence, wj. To change your party requires you to register as a Democrat. To change your nation requires.....a bit more.

Actually, it's not. You belong to whichever you feel you do. I can, and do, see myself as a Republican. Which is absolutely no impediment to me voting (as I mostly do these days) for Democrats.

Similarly, you can move to another country for the cost of a plane ticket. (Less if you're going to Canada.) Which will not, however, necessitate you ceasing to see yourself as an American.

The point is, what you see yourself as can be changed whenever you leap the necessary psychological hurdle. What you do is not really constrained by what group you see yourself as part of.

[JanieM]

Similarly, you can move to another country for the cost of a plane ticket. (Less if you're going to Canada.)

I don't even know how to address this, it's such nonsense. Countries don't just let you move there at the drop of a hat, or the purchase of a plane ticket. Leaving your house, your family, your job, everything you own except what you can pack in a suitcase....those aren't costs? It's only the plane ticket? This isn't serious; you can have the last word if you want it.

[russell]

Just to be clear...

I get that.

It's regrettable, the (R)'s used to be a much bigger tent than they are now.

I can understand why it might be hard to let go of that.

[russell]

regarding the OP:

Khashoggi went to the Saudi consulate in Istanbul to get some kind of writ of divorce. US intelligence knew he was going, US intelligence knew that Saudi intelligence knew he was going.

The Saudis intended to grab him. Apparently, US intelligence knew this as well.

Something went south, and Kashoggi ended up dead. Not just dead, but missing, perhaps dismembered and carried out of the consulate in parts.

Remarkably, Kashoggi appears to have recorded his own torture and death and uploaded it to the cloud.

A US diplomat confronted prince bin Salman about all of this. He immediately called the White House and wanted to speak with Kushner.

So, WTF is going on here.

[Nigel]

Trump likes rich people (particularly those who lend him money); he likes autocrats. MBS ticks both boxes in indelible ink.
And he doesn’t like journalists.

Any other, loftier considerations are irrelevant.

[Nigel]

Or as Tapper puts it, ‘he’s been harsher about Taylor Swift this week’
https://thehill.com/policy/international/411231-tapper-tears-into-trump-he-is-harsher-on-taylor-swift-than-saudi-arabia

[Nigel]

This is also very good background from a former insider:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi-and-us-saudi-relationship/572905/

[Nigel]

Note the conditionals:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-vows-severe-punishment-if-us-determines-saudi-arabia-killed-khashoggi/2018/10/13/dbefa658-cee0-11e8-920f-dd52e1ae4570_story.html

Is it really credible that US Intelligence isnt’s pretty sure what has happened ?
And note the stress on the vehemence of Saudi denials, and all those jobs at Boeing et al.

[CaseyL]

Dolt45 clearly gives no shits at all what happened to Khashoggi, and his supporters likely even celebrate the murder because Khashoggi criticized Dolt45. They are all anti-American and striving for the destruction of this country. Period.

Between that, the wholesale kidnapping/ imprisonment/"adoption" of children; the $1.5T tax cut that will destroy the Treasury (and, possibly-probably, SocSec and Medicare), the escalating physical attacks on dissidents, the multi-state campaign to disenfranchise Democratic voters, the seating of a SCOTUS that will protect Dolt45 from legal consequences of what was at the very least conspiracy with Russia to win the White House... this country is already past the point of no return. Just like climate change.

I wish, oh how I wish, it was as easy to leave as wj thinks. I don't want to live in a country like this, where cruelty and ignorance are public virtues. I can't wrap my head around the concept that the most cruel, the most stupid, and the most venal 30% of the population is the only part that matters.

But here we are. This is America. JFC.

[William Jouris]

Is it really credible that US Intelligence isnt’s pretty sure what has happened ?

It seems quite likely that US intelligence does know what happened. But
A) Trump can't be bothered to listen to intelligence briefings (on this or anything else). So unless it becomes a Fox News item, he won't know.
B) Trump doesn't have faith in his intelligence services anyway. So unless Fox News (again) says it's so, he won't believe it.

[Countme-a-Demon]

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-rule-law-not-mob

Fuck all of you, filthy subhuman republican mobs!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQpvbyXNi0w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad2hJ_KF04U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkaNHYxlVhY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pBcDdQa2e4

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/analysis-giuliani-graduates-out-trumping-trump-campaign-trail-n658591

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBAjhxjQ90

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&ei=hDnCW-SwM8-2ggfb37D4CQ&q=armed+protestors+at+democratic+party++obamacarwe+rallies+in+2010&oq=armed+protestors+at+democratic+party++obamacarwe+rallies+in+2010&gs_l=psy-ab.12...42265.48622..50024...0.0..0.248.1797.0j11j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j33i10.LrsKoT3VVj0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIs2L2nUL-0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LX4Q643aEU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA0iY53s-Es

Fuck off.

The republican party started Civil War II. All that's left are the military tribunals and the blood vengeance executions.

[Tony P.]

When the not-total-morons among those who like He, Trump's "(Republican) policies" finally figure out that it's actually (Republican) billionaires and pretend-billionaires -- and not poor people or immigrants -- who are ripping them off, they might bring their knitting to the tribunals and executions. Or popcorn.

This is based on two big assumptions, of course:
1) that Democrats will stop being cowed into "civility" and call crooks "crooks";
2) there actually exist not-complete-morons in the Republican "base".
So don't hold your breath.

--TP

[Countme-a-Demon]

To Democrats and Liberals and the middle and the women, Jimmy Eat World by way of Bobby Darin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTT_4OXDvng

[Countme-a-Demon]

On the other hand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqBrw3rQvKo

[Countme-a-Demon]

The third hand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0Lvm5fyKU0

[Countme-a-Demon]

The White House spox doesn't even know that we don't have a U.S. Ambassador to Turkey, though he seems to have an inkling that we haven't one in Saudi Arabia either.

http://juanitajean.com/stunning-just-stunning-and-thats-hard-to-do-these-days/

Have any missing persons reports been filed for State Department personnel in Washington D.C.? I seem to recall at least several entering the White House early in 2017 with no witness of their leaving the premises.

Lots of lumpy-looking MAGA-type louts carrying large plastic garbage bags, steamer trunks, and gunny sacks, but no non-dismembered diplomats seen walking to their cars.

Democrats on the Hill need to make a melon-run (each melon a ripe two million dollar baby) for the coming circus forensics on this shit.

Republicans are shit. Reality is the fan.

[Countme-a-Demon]

I mentioned some time ago that WWE ... Worldwide Wrestling Entertainment ... featured until this week as IBD's #1 in their Nifty Fifty stocks, was the perfect symbol of American bullshit for so many reasons.

No U.S. Ambassadors to Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Turkey, but WWE presents the pile-driving of Iranians for the Saudi Royal Crime Family.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-wwe-buddies-are-deeply-in-bed-with-saudi-regime?via=newsletter&source=Weekend

This is how we project our bullshit fake news exceptionalism to the world.

Khashoggi couldn't make it for his scheduled appearance on the ticket. He was reportedly the subject of a tag team beating and haircut in Turkey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NsrwH9I9vE

[russell]

Probably needs its own thread, but I don't have the time at the moment.** So, unfortunately, just a drive-by. Apologies.

Check out the new (R) line on climate change.

It's happening anyway, probably not much we can do about it, none of that solar panel hippie crap is gonna work.

And we don't want to wreck the economy.

What is it gonna cost to, for example, re-locate Miami, Senator?

In America, the economy wrecks you!! Hahaha!

Dumb-asses.

We need to find a way to focus legislators' attention on a time-frame longer than the next election. They need to be incentivized to not just kick the can down the road, which is their current default position.

And not just legislators, for that matter.

Any ideas? I mean, short of chaining them to stakes in low-lying coastal areas.

** Done! wj

[russell]

I mean, yeah, it's OT, but there are just so many shit-shows to pick from these days.

[wj]

Why waste time appointing Ambassadors? The Senate has enough to do packing the Federal courts.

Besides, Ambassadors (maybe even including the strictly political appointees) would doubtless be, or become, part of the deep state. And since everything important will get done by the masterful hand of the Ultimate Negotiator....

[Countme-a-Demon]

"I mean, short of chaining them to stakes in low-lying coastal areas."

Why stick to half-measures?

Rubio, Limbaugh, mp, and all of the Boca Raton beachfront property realty cheats and company already have their higher elevation digs ready for themselves and their own to flee to.

Hopefully in forested areas, where they can be burned out.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/miami-will-be-underwater-soon-its-drinking-water-could-go-first/ar-BBMB2kP

[Nigel]

A decent Republican campaigning in a decent cause;
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/schwarzenegger-campaigning-redistricting-michigan/572959/

[Countme-a-Demon]

Where there is a republican show, there is shit.

This is, I don't know ... language ... especially my Russian .. fails me:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/15/was-there-a-connection-between-a-russian-bank-and-the-trump-campaign

[Countme-a-Demon]

Saudis: an interrogation that went wrong:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/saudi-arabia-preparing-to-admit-khashoggi-was-killed-after-interrogation-cnn-2018-10-15?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

mp and kudlow, ever the optimists, are unwilling to say anything went wrong, but they will say it was a political murder that went better than the dire predictions.

mp ordered the murder.

[Countme-a-Demon]

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/10/trump-urges-search-real-killers

[Nigel]

Saudis: an interrogation that went wrong:

It wasn’t cold blooded murder, honest....
Send in a hit squad with bone saws, and spin it. Sick bastards.

I guess it must be rogue pilots killing all those kids in the Yemen, too.

[wj]

A thought piece for the Count

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/going-low-validates-trump-and-debases-america/2018/10/15/d707a048-d0a0-11e8-8c22-fa2ef74bd6d6_story.html

[liberal japonicus]

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/american-arab-journalist-walk-saudi-consulate-181015094629651.html

That's gonna leave a mark...

[Nigel]

That is a pretty devastating article, lj.

MBS strangely absent from the Pompeo meeting:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/16/jamal-khashoggi-disappearance-mike-pompeo-saudi-arabia-salman

[Countme-a-Demon]

Shit shows set in concrete (just a little Constitutional housecleaning reminder from Kevin Drum):

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/10/article-v-of-the-constitution-explained/

wj, thanks for the thought piece. I'll try to comment on it tomorrow.

[Nigel]

That 'thought piece' is a curious piece indeed:

…here and there are people who don’t need encouragement to act uncivilly or even violently. Already, there has been an upsurge in confrontation that has made for ugly television. The confrontation two women had with Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) — “Look at me,” one of them ordered — was difficult to watch and was used by pro-Brett M. Kavanaugh senators to their advantage...
Absent that confrontation, would not the Senate have proceeded to an immediate vote ?

recent political history strongly suggests that bad manners make for bad tactics. Ronald Reagan was elected governor of California twice…
Recent ??
33rd Governor of California…In office January 2, 1967 – January 6, 1975

Looking at Cohen's Wikipedia page, it does seem as though his social attitudes set in aspic half a century ago.

https://observer.com/1998/05/washington-post-scolds-richard-cohen-for-crude-talk-with-female-aide/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2008/03/how_did_i_get_iraq_wrong_8.html

https://archives.cjr.org/the_kicker/what_is_richard_cohen_thinking.php

https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/07/a-conversation-with-richard-cohen-168462

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-christies-tea-party-problem/2013/11/11/a1ffaa9c-4b05-11e3-ac54-aa84301ced81_story.html
People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex when considering the mayor-elect of New York — a white man married to a black woman and with two biracial children. (Should I mention that Bill de Blasio's wife, Chirlane McCray, used to be a lesbian?) This family represents the cultural changes that have enveloped parts — but not all — of America. To cultural conservatives, this doesn't look like their country at all…

[Nigel]

This piece, on the same theme, is vastly superior to Cohen's nonsense:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/anger-in-america-trumpism-incivility.html

[Nigel]

We were discussing longevity of electric vehicles upthread.
Tesla claims its drivetrain is good for 1m miles:
https://electrek.co/2018/10/15/tesla-drive-after-million-miles-test/

[Girl from the North Country]

That's an excellent Slate piece, Nigel. It makes me think yet again of our discussion with McKinney, and how he said it's incumbent upon us as civilised people to respect people like Sarah Huckabee Sanders going about their civilised private business, e.g. in restaurants. On which subject, I read somewhere today an interview with Tucker Carlson complaining he can no longer go to restaurants because of people shouting Fuck You at him. No problem for me, (although personally I wish they were shouting something with more content as well as the anger).

[Nigel]

Yes, it is, GFTNC.
Busy at the moment, but I'll be rereading it tonight, as it bears thinking about seriously.

[cleek]

people who get paid to sit in comfy chairs in front of TV cameras and scream "FUCK YOU" to tens of millions of people every damned night have no grounds for complaining when some of those people return the sentiment.

don't like being hated? maybe don't preach hatred for a living.

[Countme-a-Demon]

"On which subject, I read somewhere today an interview with Tucker Carlson complaining he can no longer go to restaurants because of people shouting Fuck You at him."

He can be served his meals in the FOX studios. A least the fuck yous are delivered in the flesh and blood and not through cameras and microphones in a fortified studio.

https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/10/15/tucker-carlson-says-elizabeth-warren-mocked-native-americans-then-makes-trail-tears-joke-calls-her/221693

What's good for the goose is a gander made into fois gras:

General Custerfuck, The Only Good Republican is a
Dead Republican, Tucker McRapey Columbus who finger fucked America and called it Discovery.

Years ago, Carlson bragged (I expect he made it up; really, a guy in a bow tie and tasseled loafers putting the hurt on someone?) about roughing up a faggot who mistook him, Carlson, for a man in a public bathroom.

He's fair game, but leave his kids alone.

[Ugh]

Horrible must be allowed to do horrible things in peace.

[Ugh]

horrible *people* that is

[Ugh]

OTOH someone on twitter points out that Tucker claiming restaurant victim-hood is likely untrue and another form of grift....

[Countme-a-Demon]

http://juanitajean.com/just-short-of-a-tank/

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/14/governor-matt-bevin-throws-grenades-shoots-guns-video-twitter-kentucky/1641957002/

Yeah, these are civil vermin you can talk to.

[Girl from the North Country]

OTOH someone on twitter points out that Tucker claiming restaurant victim-hood is likely untrue and another form of grift....

I wouldn't be at all surprised, Ugh, but would be interested to know how that works. I couldn't find a reference to it online, can you post a link?

[sapient]

Just back to this particular shitshow thread, just another deeply gruesome sign that we're in such serious trouble with these monsters running the Executive branch of our government.

Keep in mind that he said "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters." Since he's probably covering for someone who dismembered a journalist alive, it will be interesting to see what he tries next, here.

[bobbyp]

A thought piece for the Count

Richard Cohen is a class A jerk.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/07/richard-cohen-shows-why-racism-makes-you-do-dumb-things/313281/

[wj]

just another deeply gruesome sign that we're in such serious trouble with these monsters running the Executive branch of our government.

Oh, their not ALL monsters. Some are merely clueless morons. The difference being that monsters need to be exterminated (channeling my inner Count), whereas morons can be put to good use mucking out stables or other work requiring minimal intelligence.

[sapient]

channeling my inner Count

This is our country within a few years. We're too polite to call it by its name.

[Countme-a-Demon]

I got an idea for a reality show.

What's it called?

Shit Show!

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/political-appointee-will-replace-interior-depts-top-watchdog-ben-carson-says

[sapient]

I got an idea for a reality show.

Hope we can make some money! Let's start with the tapes from the embassy!

[sapient]

Hmmm. Sorry - that would be snuff media. I'm sure Trump is already on it.

[sapient]

Wonder why McKinney, bc, and Marty aren't weighing in on this. Has to be some kind of coaching or something.

[bobbyp]

Who are the real thugs?

Shit show indeed.

[russell]

Apparently, they tortured him, including cutting off fingers. Then beheaded him, then carved his body into pieces.

The diplomat in whose office this was going on told them to leave. It would look bad for him.

The doctor they brought along to help out suggested listening to music on headphones to lessen stress while dismembering Khashoggi's body.

Some of the folks involved have been identified as members of bin Salman's personal entourage.

Khashoggi was a permanent resident of the US and a correspondent for the Washington Post.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

MBS browses to Amazon.com:

"Here's some bone saws you might be interested in"

[sapient]

Payoff.

[novakant]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/saudi-journalist-jamal-khashoggi-s-disappearance-has-accomplished-what-50-ncna920461

[wj]

Payoff.

Looks more like a secondary attempted payoff. By someone not took experienced in these things. (Of overconfident on what will work.) Because, after all, an actual payoff would be (is?) going to Trump personally.

[CharlesWT]

The death of a single journalist is a tragedy. The death of 50,000 Yemeni is a statistic.

[wj]

But at least the death of the journalist is getting what's going on in Yemen talked about. Far more than I've seen in years.

[cleek]

and Yemen is part of the whole Saudi story, since people are starting to look at US/Saudi arms deals and asking WTF?

[russell]

an actual payoff would be (is?) going to Trump personally.

Trump's company has a lot of income from the Saudis, so perhaps just consider it paid in advance.

[wj]

Trump's company has a lot of income from the Saudis, so perhaps just consider it paid in advance.

My impression (I may be wrong) is that, with Trump, it matters far more what you have done for him lately -- "lately" being, roughly, in the past week or so. (Better yet, what you will do for him in the immediate future.)

Old news is not important. As in, he will stiff his contractors; he will stiff those who paid him off in the past, too. Call it a major pre-payment penalty.

[cleek]

The death of 50,000 Yemeni is a statistic.

were many of them individually targeted, tortured and killed in a Saudi consulate ?

[novakant]

14 million people now facing famine, the US/UK could stop this tomorrow.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/14-million-people-yemen-face-imminent-great-big-famine-n923756

[sapient]

14 million people now facing famine, the US/UK could stop this tomorrow.

Donald Trump will not be working on that project. Perhaps, despite some foreign policy concerns that some people had about Democrats, allowing him to be elected was a mistake.

[Countme-a-Demon]

It has started.

[cleek]

every time i look at a news site, a new bomb has been found.

Soros
Clinton
Obama
Holder / DWS
Brennan
CNN
Andrew Cuomo

[cleek]

Maxine Waters

[Countme-a-Demon]

What has started?

The Second One.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Both sides:

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/10/can-start-not-missing-jeff-flake-wont-go-away

mp promised Flake and Kavanaugh promised Collins that bombs would be sent to both liberals and conservatives equally so as to avoid any appearance that mp wants to murder only those who disagree with him.

I believe conservatives and liberals should come to bipartisan agreement and decide that when conservatives send bombs to liberals, liberals should also send bombs to the same liberals, to maintain partisan balance, objectivity, free of bias.

When both sides hate liberals equally, we will live in a world in which liberals are blown up twice, just to make sure.

Hater Gaffney, still unshot in the head:

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/10/john-bolton-ally-suggests-leftists-sent-mail-bombs-deflect-attention-lefts-mobs/

[Countme-a-Demon]

https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/10/24/nra-spokesperson-dana-loesch-says-supporters-may-need-bring-guns-polls-protect-themselves/221818

I'll be goddamned if I'm ever again going to bring a ballot to a gunfight with conservative vermin.