OMG Open Thread

by wj

Because we are way overdue for a new open thread. And this
https://deadspin.com/minor-league-baseball-team-wins-on-a-three-run-walk-off-1828308390
is just way too good not to share!

Comments

[cleek]

about the man arrested while driving his wife to the hospital....

he is wanted in Mexico, for murder.

[wj]

The question of Rap is also raised. I don't share wj's view that it is 'mere doggerel'

I see I've been seriously unclear. I don't think all rap is doggerel, any more than all poetry is. But I would contend that much of both fails to rise above that level.

[sapient]

he is wanted in Mexico, for murder.

According to this story:

"In the charging documents he is charged with being in the country without documents. He is not in extradition proceedings."

Because of all of the abuses that have happened lately, I no longer trust ICE. It seems that they came up with this story after they grabbed him.

[Countme-a-Demon]

"he is wanted in Mexico, for murder"

Perhaps he could find refuge in Iowa, where cold-blooded murder is republican vermin government policy.

https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/08/trump-would-call-him-loser.html

I'll worry about the fucking Mexican after American republican filth are executed and their families deported to Hell.

[Countme-a-Demon]

By calling a John Dean a "rat", the subhuman republican vermin crawling on the dog stinking up the White House admits his and his 65 million scuttling supporters' treasonous guilt:

http://juanitajean.com/

When these scum are out of that building, and they will be, by force, condemn and demolish it and build a new structure to house future Presidents.

Spray weekly for republican vermin.

[Hartmut]

Aulus Gellius was most definitely a snob. I had the questionable pleasure to read his Attic Nights last year (in both the original and a mid-19th-century German translation).
But he is no match for classical philologists (in particular German ones). Latin is Cicero, nothing else. And even parts of his works get criticised as not up to standard (and his letters have to be kept out of the hands of students lest they get infected by the abominable vernacular he uses there).

[Girl from the North Country]

Thanks all for various responses. I have to admit, Janie's comment on pronunciation caught me: I always used to pronouce homage like an English word (hom as in homily, age as in the idge of porridge), but had rather fallen into the habit recently of the American frenchification. That stops right here!

Also, I do completely agree about the punching up. There are institutions which should be (and hold themselves out to be) acting as bastions of correctness, so it seems to me absolutely right to point it out when they fuck up in a way one wouldn't to a less educated person making an easily understandable point. I also think it's vital to keep reminding oneself of distinctions of meaning: I think "disinterested" versus "uninterested" may be a lost cause, but I'm not giving up on it yet.

[Pro Bono]

To my mind, "hommage" (pronounced in French) and "homage" (pronounced as GftNC says) are two different words from the same root, the former being expression of esteem for another artist by including some element of his work in one's own.

Similarly "auteur" and "author".

[wj]

One of the challenges with English grammar, at least as taught to us in the middle of the last century, was that it was still trying to take a Germanic language and force it into a Latin grammatical structure. There are enough borrowings from (Norman) French to give occasional plausibility, but mostly not.

I suspect that a lot of children simply decided that grammar was nonsense. All grammar, unfortunately -- because there really is a proper grammar for English . . . just not the one that they tried to teach us.

One classic example: never use a preposition to end a sentence with.** Or, famously: "This is the sort of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put!"

English: what happens when Norman men at arms are trying to pick up Saxon bar girls.

** OK, that's not proper in German either. But it IS normal English.

[Girl from the North Country]

Hmmm, Pro Bono, now that you mention it all my uses of homage in the last few years of Frenchification have been of your former kind. I would never say "I want to pay homage to...." and pronounce it the Frenchified way. Janie, as the bringer-up and the usage police, what do you think of this distinction?

[sapient]

I notice that the NYT has fixed "furor". Breaking a story online and editing it later is a practice that makes a certain amount of sense.

Here's the edit.

[Pro Bono]

... Mr. McGahn answered the special counsel team’s questions fulsomely...

Is "fulsomely" in the local dialect a synonym for "fully"?

[wj]

Maybe McGahn was larding his testimony with excessive praise? Of Mueller? (Of Trump seems unlikely....)

[JanieM]

Janie, as the bringer-up and the usage police, what do you think of this distinction?

I need to be only the now and then usage police, so I'll leave that one alone. ;-)

wj's "larding his testimony," however, seems like a keeper.

[Girl from the North Country]

I need to be only the now and then usage police, so I'll leave that one alone. ;-)

Yes, sorry! I did hesitate, but it's hard not to take advantage....

[wj]

wj's "larding his testimony," however, seems like a keeper.

Takes a bow or three. (That's "bow" as in genuflect. Not as in bow tie or bow and arrow.)

[Nigel]

Fulsome is one of those words which has almost completely reversed its meaning over time... cf Twelfth Night:
It is as fat and fulsome to mine ear, As howling after musick...

[Nigel]

‘hommage’ was, I think, originally used semi-ironically in the film industry to indicate pretentious reference to the work of a famous antecedent.

Similarly ‘auteur’ is a direct borrowing from the French, who took directors’ claims to artistry rather more seriously than did we at one time.

[cleek]

one of those words which has almost completely reversed its meaning over time

see also: livid

it meant pale. now it's as likely to be used to mean flushed.

[JanieM]

Silly too has an interesting evolution:

late Middle English (in the sense ‘deserving of pity or sympathy’): alteration of dialect seely ‘happy,’ later ‘innocent, feeble,’ from a West Germanic base meaning ‘luck, happiness.’ The sense ‘foolish’ developed via the stages ‘feeble’ and ‘unsophisticated, ignorant.’

[JanieM]

French is so troublesome! I once heard a speaker give a talk in which he said nitch, neetch, and neesh in the space of half an hour. Why does no one get all anxious about not mispronouncing words that might be from the Spanish or German?

(Rhetorical question. Joke, actually.)

[Nigel]

“Silly sooth” in Shakespeare meant, I recall, simple truth.

And larding occurs in Henry V:
In which array, brave soldier, doth he lie,
Larding the plain; and by his bloody side,
Yoke-fellow to his honour-owing wounds,
The noble Earl of Suffolk also lies.

[wj]

And through it all, we have people who get hysterical because they hear someone speaking a language other than English. (Mostly Spanish, but they appear to be similarly unhappy about other languages -- even when spoken by obvious tourists.) While blithely innocent of the number of "English" words which were borrowed from elsewhere.

To be fair, lots of people elsewhere are similarly irate at the number of borrowings from English which are creeping into their languages. Life is really difficult when things just won't stay totally unchanging for a lifetime!

[JanieM]

A wry story involving Spanish -- when the Best Buy chain came to Central Maine, it was the first store (and may still be the only one; I've stopped paying attention) that had big hanging signs showing the departments of the store in both English and Spanish.

The irony was that the number of Spanish speakers in Central Maine is (or at least was) vanishingly small, while Maine did still have pockets of older generation French speakers, and the major ethnic "minority" was the Francos. (Who seem to hold a place here a lot like the one the "Italians" held where I grew up.)

And for that matter, lots of tourists come here from Quebec.

No doubt Best Buy was trying to do something good, but then they did a half-assed job by not bothering to find out which language might actually be useful in any region of the country.

It's always fun nowadays to see the lists of languages for which help is available by phone in doctor's offices, in the ER, even in Lowe's. Lots of interesting scripts in this world....

[russell]

most medical facilities near me offer translation in about two dozen languages. maybe thirty.

[liberal japonicus]

one of those words which has almost completely reversed its meaning over time

These are always fun and to me, indicate how the human mind can deal with a near infinite number of logical inconsistencies. I tell students that words that are at the far end of a spectrum are liable to do this, so in Japanese, the pronoun/term of address omae used to be an honorific pronoun and now means something that you say to start a fight.

https://www.japanesewithanime.com/2017/08/anata-omae-kimi-kisama-meaning.html

My personal fave (in English) is awful, which originally meant, as you might guess 'full of awe', but now means terrible, a meaning that came about in the late 18th/early 19th century
https://www.etymonline.com/word/awful

and I imagine some wag noting that someone else's bad characteristic is so bad that it inspires awe. Kind of like Guiliani here

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/giuliani-says-trump-tower-meeting-was-for-getting-information-about-clinton

You listen to that, and you realize you are in the presence of stupidity so total that you can only be in awe.

[Nous]

Weighing in on the rap side of the discussion because I've been looking at it a lot in the past few weeks doing research for a writing class I'm considering that centers around the different types and audiences for writing about music. Visited a bunch of pages featuring rap analysis and learned a lot about the form. Here's some verses and songs to show the artistry:

Mos Def's vocabulary - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd5gCqZePPY

Zack de la Rocha's literacy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1jVYXytcQ

Slug's buildup - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZzAe5gi_jI

Pharoahe Monch's polyrhythms - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swf8so2na-Y

Andre 3000s breaking the bar - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAiEIwA9_s

MF Doom's sheer density of rhyme - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9mZkc2RPOU

Low doggerel quotient throughout.

[wj]

Kind of like Guiliani here

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/giuliani-says-trump-tower-meeting-was-for-getting-information-about-clinton

You listen to that, and you realize you are in the presence of stupidity so total that you can only be in awe.

But Guiliani gets better:

Truth isn't truth

You can see why he and Trump get on. But really, what an exceptionally stupid thing to say on camera.

[Marty]

wj, while he did say that, Chuck Todd interrupted his explanation of that, which made perfect sense. So from a legal standpoint do they want Trump under oath disagreeing with Comey, or anyone, so who is Mueller going to charge with perjury? No matter what truth may lie between.

But of course Todd had his sound bite so he started making his stupid faces and talking over Giuliani.

I despise Trump more every day, and sti find reasons almost every day to hate the media more.

But then America was never great, just ask Cuomo.

[liberal japonicus]

Nous and others, this may also be interesting, vocabulary size of rappers

https://pudding.cool/2017/02/vocabulary/index.html

[liberal japonicus]

But then America was never great, just ask Cuomo.

Marty, what Cuomo said was "America was never that great".

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/18/new-york-governor-andrew-cuomo-america-never-that-great

A small difference, but if you want to complain about the 9-11 mayor being quoted out of context, you probably want to be as exact as you can be, otherwise someone may accuse you of being in a bubble...

[Hartmut]

To be fair, lots of people elsewhere are similarly irate at the number of borrowings from English which are creeping into their languages.

Irate may be too strong a word but I find it annoying when 'foreign' words get adopted without any need because there are already perfectly servicable 'domestic' ones.

The worst offenders are advertisers (and the Deutsche Bahn AG), often using English words in such a misguided way that the result is incomprehensible to both German and English speakers.

No problem with me when the newcomers actually add something and be it just a nuance. E.g. 'fake' is used in German with a narrower meaning than in English and fills a gap.
An interesting area are words that get introduced because the concept they describe is new. Some later get translated and replaced, others coexist with translations, others stay and the translations are only used by hardcore purists (that unmask themselves by doing so).

[cleek]

So from a legal standpoint do they want Trump under oath disagreeing with Comey, or anyone

disagreement isn't perjury.

lying is.

[Pro Bono]

From a legal standpoint, it would be ill-advised for Trump to testify on oath, since he lies about everything.

But epistemological statements about the nature of truth have got nothing to do with it. To be convicted of perjury you have to tell a demonstrable lie. Which of course Trump does almost every time he says anything.

[hairshirthedonist]

My personal fave (in English) is awful, which originally meant, as you might guess 'full of awe', but now means terrible, a meaning that came about in the late 18th/early 19th century.

Yeah. Awful used to mean something more like terrific. But terrific meant something more like terrible. I'm so confused. I might be nonplussed, if I could make up my mind about which definition of nonplussed should apply.

Something that drives me crazy, pretty much only seen in written English: lightening/lightning confusion. I hate that!

[hairshirthedonist]

Oh, and pronouncing the white condiment used on sandwiches and in salads as "may-naze." I might actually kill someone over that someday.

[russell]

since we seem to be interested in considering statemrnts in their full context, the rest of the cuomo quote:

We have not reached greatness. We will reach greatness when every American is fully engaged.

giuliani is wise to avoid having trump speak under oath if it can be avoided. giuliani would be even wiser to quit making his own public statements. he's not doing his client any favors. or himself, for that matter.

conservatives need to burn their party down and start over. the things you say you stand for are not on offer from the gop.

[hairshirthedonist]

I'd give both Cuomo and Giuliani bad grades for putting forth bad sound-bites with their wording, regardless of the broader context of what they were saying. It's a tough gig, but they both signed up for it. What's up with these New Yorkers, anyway?

[Countme-a-Demon]

I hate Cuomo like someone or other here hates mayonnaise, (I hate mp like I would hate mayonnaise if the condiment was made from dog shit) but I took the former's "America was never that great" comment somewhat like a a guy boasting to his marriage counselor that his sexual performance was "Great!" throughout his relationship with his wife and his wife rolling her eyes and announcing "It was NEVER that great!" and then divorce proceedings commencing soon thereafter, especially after the wife learned her husband also had an overdrawn secret bank account and hadn't been paying the mortgage.

To some, the boast "Mother Russia" sounds right. To others, "Motherfucking Russia" is more to the point.

Muhammad Ali was the only human being who I recall being able to bring off the "I am the "Greatest!" comment with some sense of accuracy but also a wink of self-awareness.

America, it's asshole jagoff side, can't bring that off, being an insecure little get, as a class of humans. When John Lennon quips that the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus", America immediately brings out the "not That great" persona underpinning our boasts, sieg heils, and starts burning records, books, and effigies and pretty soon bullet holes are found everywhere, we dumb fucks.

mp is the Greatest personification and apotheosis of America's not very great underpinning, the low sniveling dog. And the pack of baying leg-humping canine mutts who installed him should be assumed to be infected with the same rabies.

[Countme-a-Demon]

A dirty guy attempting to spit polish something, like a dog licking itself in public:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/giuliani-tries-to-clean-up-truth-isnt-truth-comment

May I suggest, instead of "Truth isn't Truth":

The Vicinity of Truth

The Neighborhood of Truth

A gigantic piece of space junk called Truth in orbit around the Planet of the Liars. Gravity beckons.

Truth: The Ping Pong ball under one of three cups and a republican with fast hands working the crowd.

Truth: Like the Big Dipper constellation viewed from a different planet .... now it's a horse's ass.

Truth: Here's a shovel. Start digging for Jimmy Hoffa. (Hint: Jimmy Hoffa wasn't buried)

This way to the Egress

Pravda.

[Jim Parish]

In my youth, I (and my sibs) pronounced "mayonnaise" to rhyme with "man daze". Though I've adopted a trisyllabic pronunciation by now, I'm in no position to complain about anyone else's version.

[wj]

Oh, and pronouncing the white condiment used on sandwiches and in salads as "may-naze." I might actually kill someone over that someday.

I've always pronounced it "man-aze". As do those around me -- well except for those who just say mayo. Never saw a reason to change.

[Nous]

Nous and others, this may also be interesting, vocabulary size of rappers

https://pudding.cool/2017/02/vocabulary/index.html

That chart underlines one of the reasons why I prefer East Coast rap (though Outkast make a case for the ATL).

What gets me about Mos Def's vocab is not the number of unique words that he uses in his rap, but the number of polysyllabic rhymes he throws into his lines. It lends his flow a sense of sophistication.

The big surprise for me in my listening, however, was Pharoahe Monch. The way he plays with tempo and expectation and rhythm is so complex, and he does it in rap battles under time constraint.

[hairshirthedonist]

Bi- or tri-syllabic is fine, so long as it's not "may" and bi-syllabic. "May" is alright so long as there's an "o" in the middle. I got no beef with "man-naze," and I wouldn't put it on beef, anyway.

(I know none of this is going to help kids in cages, but still.)

[byomtov]

In fairness, while Giuliani is a ridiculous person, Trump would be a fool to talk to Mueller.

[wj]

"Trump would be a fool to talk to Mueller" . . . because he would either destroy himself by repeatedly taking the 5th (his best option), get caught in multiple lies (i.e. repeated perjury), or incriminate himself by testifying truthfully (which makes the wild assumption that he has a clue what the truth is).

The problem is, he may get a subpoena. It would take a while to get appealed to the Supreme Court. But he would be stuck.

[Marty]

Or he could testify truthfully and still get charged with perjury. No one playing is completely without an agenda. Best case, and maybe most probable case, Mueller is just a prosecutor whose job it is to find a way to prosecute. I simply dont think he is above bringing that case and letting the chips fall, even if its a bad one.

[Tony P.]

Marty,

For someone who despises He, Trump you sure seem inclined to believe (or at least, proclaim) that He is unfairly put-upon by scheming Republicans like Mueller.

When He, Trump declared He could shoot somebody on 5th Ave and not lose any support, was He talking about yours?

--TP

[wj]

How does one testify truthfully and get charged with perjury? Even a prosecutor who is willing to push the envelope (and there is absolutely no evidence that Meuller is) is going to hesitate to do that.

We've already seen that there's no shortage of possible prosecutions available. To believe that Mueller would embark on a weak case here, you'd have to buy the fantasy that the whole thing is a political witch hunt. Even though it's being run by a guy who, when he was appointed, got lots of praise from Republicans.

For example, House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, tweeted "Mueller is a great selection. Impeccable credentials. Should be widely accepted." Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY): "I have a lot of confidence in Bob Mueller. I think it was a good choice."

The only thing that has changed is that it turns out that the Trump campaign wasn't as pure as it claimed.

[Marty]

T,

I simply dont believe, as I have said, that there is any evidence he colluded with the Russian government to influence the election. Even though they were both working toward that end. Nor do I think he has obstructed justice beyond a legal self defense. I dont think he was unfairly put upon in general, nor do I, at this point, think Mueller is a bad guy. His job is to find reasons to prosecute.

I think Trump is lots of bad things, named them before, but I dont think he did those two things. Mueller may come up with evidence to prove me wrong.

I think the press, in general, has been more biased than ever, making it difficult to find a news source to rely on.

[Marty]

wj, see last comment. Plus, people have a variety of allegiances beyond party, Muellers to Comey is problematic. People have recused themselves for less.

But that was not my point,his job is to prosecute, so yes a weak case against the President is better than all those other possibilities.

[russell]

His job is to find reasons to prosecute.

actually, his job is to investigate the events under consideration to see if further action is indicated or not. and, if and only if so, to take or at least initiate that further action.

you are assuming a bias toward prosecution on his part, i don't think that's in evidence.

I think the press, in general, has been more biased than ever, making it difficult to find a news source to rely on.

there are reasonably good sources,it just takes more work to weed through the BS.

first step - turn off the TV.

it's true, we all miss walter cronkite.

[wj]

nor do I, at this point, think Mueller is a bad guy. His job is to find reasons to prosecute.

What Russell said.

[liberal japonicus]

Don't want to pile on, but I would draw your attention Marty, to this article

https://www.newsandguts.com/listen-to-the-spymasters/

I point this out because I've also read, both here and in other places, about how it is unseeming/short sighted/hypocritical/your adjective here for liberals and progressives who claim to be against US intelligence services and the things that the CIA has done to hold up people like Clapper and Brennan as paragons of virtue. I don't feel this way, because I feel, first of all, that the debate has progressed (or more accurately lowered itself) to a place where to counter Trump, anyone cited has to be presented as totally beyond reproach. That, in some ways, is the genius of Trump, to create a debate where the mere acknowledgement that someone held up has some flaw or fault, this automatically disqualifies them and everything is reduced to a question of whether people are unbiased, as we see in this discussion of Mueller.

Referenced in that article is this youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96yWsrMXREI

If you've only heard soundbites, Marty, you may want to listen to the whole thing.

[Marty]

Brennan and Claper are Democratic talking heads. The Krugmans of the spy game. And Brennan has been pilloried individually by the left. Once you call the President a traitor on national TV then go on the next week and admit you've seen no evidence to back that up, in fact no evidence of any of the accusations, You really shouldn't have access to any classified info. That happened this Sunday as part of his "defense". I know people who have clearances revoked for lots less.

[Marty]

russell, Mueller has brought charges against 18? Russians he cant touch and a few Americans, none on anything remotely resembling collusion. He is doing what prosecutors do, finding ways to prosecute people. Cant get them for x, let's try to get them for whatever we can. Who could help with that? What can we charge them with?
It is the current state of acceptable prosecutorial conduct that people have lauded Mueller for being so good at. In the articles about his team the main point was how good they had been at that in mostly white collar crime cases.

That's not deciding if further action is warranted. It's deciding if further action is possible.

[russell]

Brennan and Claper are Democratic talking heads.

I'm not a fan of either of them, but this is ridiculous.

Also, FWIW, here are the guidelines for revoking a security clearance. Notable for its absence is making statements about the POTUS, good bad or indifferent.

Granting or denying security clearances for political reasons short of disloyalty to the nation - i.e., criticizing the POTUS - is unusual to the point of being extraordinary, if not alarming.

[russell]

russell, Mueller has brought charges against 18? Russians he cant touch and a few Americans, none on anything remotely resembling collusion.

Mueller's brief as stated in the authorization for the investigation includes pursuing any criminal activity he uncovers in the process of investigating co-operation with Russian interference in the election.

He found criminal activity. He pursued it.

As far as the magic word 'collusion', principals of Trump's campaign and members of his immediate family (an overlapping collection of people) met with Russian nationals who have clear links to Putin. The Russians offered oppo research on Clinton based on illegally obtained emails. They wanted favorable reconsideration of the Magnitsky Act. Magnitsky is significant because it prevents Russian kleptocrats - including Putin and his pals - from getting at their ill-gotten money.

Gee, is there a word that describes that?

Collusion is a given. It has not only been demonstrated, it has been plainly and publicly admitted to by the parties involved. Collusion per se is not, remotely, in question.

Collusion per se is not a crime. The questions that remain open are the degree to which the actions of the folks involved violated any of a variety of laws, and the degree to which this all went on with Trump's knowledge and consent.

I'm sure we'll hear more about all of that in the next few months.

[Marty]

russell, interestingly there is a link at the end of the article that defines who should have a clearance. Brennan and Clapper meet none of the criteria. Most former employees keep clearances because they might be called upon again, perhaps as a consultant. Unlikely for those two at this point.

https://fas.org/sgp/clinton/eo12968.html

[russell]

Brennan was Director of the CIA and director of the National Terrorism Center.

Clapper was Director of National Intelligence, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, and Director of the National Geo-Spatial Intelligence agency.

It is beyond dead normal for people at that level to retain security clearances. Because they have expertise that is of value.

As noted above, I'm not a big fan of either guy, but they know their onions. Too bad for Trump - and the rest of us - if he doesn't want to take advantage of that.

Trump pulled their clearances because they criticized him. It's more - way way way more - than unusual for the POTUS to wade into the granting or denying of security clearances, and even more so when the issue is so obviously a matter of partisan politics.

There is a reason that the intel and law enforcement communities try to keep partisan politics out of this stuff.

Trump's behavior is utter bullshit, and you undermine your own credibility when you defend it.

[Marty]

No, he pulled their clearances so it would be a problem for people inside the government to leak to them. I think the list should be longer and include a much more bipartisan group of people.

I have become inured to the bully tactic of questioning my credibility in order to stifle all legitimate discussion in the single minded focus of getting rid of Trump. Its dangerous to silence dissent.

[cleek]

No, he pulled their clearances so it would be a problem for people inside the government to leak to them.

what classified material has been leaked ?

[cleek]

I simply dont believe, as I have said, that there is any evidence he colluded with the Russian government to influence the election.

Mueller's directive isn't to see if Trump personally colluded. it's to see if the Trump campaign did. and there are piles of evidence that it did. the question of whether Trump himself was involved is still not definitively answered; but every day, Trump gives us all more and more reason to think he knew and was involved.

Its dangerous to silence dissent.

you're being silenced?

try picturing a world where Trump is a Democrat. still think he's innocent?

[russell]

Its dangerous to silence dissent.

Yes Marty, I am bullying and abusing you.

There is quite a wide gap between "you may not speak" and "what you are saying is not persuasive".

It is miles outside of normal practice and procedure for the POTUS to get involved, personally, in either granting or revoking security clearances. It is more than miles outside of normal practice for pretty much anyone, let alone the POTUS, to do so without a substantial reason for doing so. 'Criticizing the POTUS' *is not* a substantial reason for doing so.

The arguments you raise in favor of, or at least justifying, Trump's action here all reflect Trump's desire to silence his critics. That is not only not a strong argument in favor of his actions, it is an argument against them.

So, if I say that you undermine your credibility when you go on with these arguments, it's because they aren't good arguments. They're bad arguments. When you make bad arguments, you undermine your credibility.

But by all means carry on, nobody here will stop you.

[russell]

Shorter me:

Based on the arguments you are presenting, justifying Trump's revocation of Brennan and Clapper's clearances, *I don't think you know what you're talking about*.

So I don't find your arguments credible.

You may find it objectionable that I say that, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with bullying or silencing you.

I just don't think you are familiar with how clearances are handled, and why. They aren't granted or revoked as signs of political favor or displeasure, and ought not be.

[Pro Bono]

The problem is that Trump is a crook, a blowhard, a misogynist, a racist, and an ass in every personal attribute, and everyone of any intelligence involved in the governance of the United States knows it.

If you're going to get rid of everyone biased against Trump, in the sense of recognising the truth about him, then only the fools and the crooks will remain.

[Countme-a-Demon]

"If you're going to get rid of everyone biased against Trump, in the sense of recognising the truth about him, then only the fools and the crooks will remain."

We're closer than you think:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-denies-discussing-kicking-obama-out-intel-briefings

That mp himself and his underlings who recommend this shit have security clearances is a disgrace and reason for savage violence, which the Founders, were they here physically instead of merely by the invocation of conservative fucking seance, would not only approve but heartily participate in.

Really. Say these words to yourselves so you can hear them out loud:

"Traitor Donald mp and his traitorous cuck staff, who stole an American Presidential election with the publicly requested help of the Putin government, are revoking the security clearances of American public servants."

Then say, "Fuck me!"

[JanieM]

I have become inured to the bully tactic of questioning my credibility in order to stifle all legitimate discussion in the single minded focus of getting rid of Trump. Its dangerous to silence dissent.

So, it's a dangerous silencing of dissent for russell to engage in a calm argument on an obscure blog, but it's just dandy for the president* to revoke security clearances (in a wild departure from usual practice) in a clear effort to punish dissent.

And the argument in which russell is allegedly silencing Marty is about, wait for it, whether Clickbait has (mis)used the power of the office he besmirches every time he breathes, to silence critics. Which Marty is defending.

Irony is dead.

[hairshirthedonist]

Pro Bono kind of beat me to it. I don't know why it's hard to understand that negative opinions toward someone or something, in this case Trump, aren't necessarily a matter of bias.

Isn't it entirely possible that Trump and his administration are almost entirely a sh1t-show of incompetence and capriciousness? Should that receive praise?

Imagine if Obama was doing the crap Trump is. He was pilloried for bowing for crying out loud.

[sapient]

Marty had enough self-respect to deny his own support for Trump before the election. The fact that he so doggedly supportive now should make us all realize how impossible it is to dissuade the "true believers". Depressing.

[cleek]

so now Trumpism has infected the core of our system of justice. giving testimony is unacceptable when the questioner isn't known to be an unquestioning ally of the person to be questioned.

and we've had 18 months of the President ranting and raving on Twitter (motherfucking Twitter - tell us about how Obama demeaned the office again, fuckos) about an investigation in which he is the lead figure, threatening everyone involved, demanding obsequious obedience. and this isn't obstruction of Justice because... ? because the President can't obstruct justice ?

is there nothing "conservatives" won't sully in defense of this man? are there no principles they have above "Go Team GOP!" ?

don't bother. i know the answer.

been saying it for quite a while now: everything Trump touches is diminished.

[JanieM]

From here:

Donald Trump is laying out his agenda: He wants flag-burning to be a crime, possibly resulting in a loss of citizenship or even a year in jail, he tweeted Tuesday morning.

Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.

***

From here:

Robert Gates, the former director of central intelligence under President George H. W. Bush and the secretary of defense under both Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama,  signed the letter on Friday. They all called Trump’s move “an attempt to stifle free speech.” Trump has warned that he is also revoking the security clearances of other high-ranking officials, stripping them of access to classified information. Nine of these officials under review have all criticized the president.  Many have also been involved in the probe of the alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. Meanwhile, in the Legislative branch of government, the Senate unanimously passed a resolution Thursday affirming that “the press is not the enemy of the people.”

Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.

***

From here:

Tuesday, President Donald Trump presided over a celebration at the White House that he claims will “honor our great country,” after abruptly canceling a gathering with the Super Bowl champion Philadelphia Eagles over the flap involving football players kneeling to protest police brutality and systemic racism. Trump insisted that the Eagles “disagree with their president because he insists that they proudly stand for the national anthem,” an assertion that carries echoes of dissatisfaction with their failure to submit to his will as well as any anger over treatment of the flag. Of course, as The Washington Post reports, no Eagles knelt in this manner, and the team privately conveyed to the White House that fewer players than expected would show up. Trump told the lie about kneeling Eagles to justify the cancellation in part because he anticipated low turnout, which he hates.

Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.

***

From here:

Silencing Dissent: Donald Trump Just Threw An Elderly Version Of Himself Out Of His Rally For Shouting ‘Beware Hubris!’

Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.

[liberal japonicus]

Ir's interesting, I noted that there are folks on the left who are complaining about citing people like Clapper and Brennan because they represent some of the deep rooted problems with US policy, and Marty tells us that they are merely Democratic mouthpieces. I realize that the youtube video was an hour long, but I expected at least a nod towards listening to it and pointing out what was wrong.

For others, here are two blogposts from Lawfare, the first by Jack Goldsmith and the second by Robert Litt.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/dangers-trump-brennan-confrontation

https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-trumps-outburst-over-security-clearances-harms-presidency

Goldsmith makes the point that I was trying to when he writes

This leads to the second unfortunate trend during the Trump era: the president’s uncanny ability to induce his critics to break norms in response to his norm-breaking behavior, in the process lending credibility to his critiques.

interesting times, unfortunately for us.

[Marty]

Your second comment was a concise argument disagreeing with mine. One that I consider as quite possible.

Thiadd one was the sgeandard bullying of the left today to stifle any reasonable criticism of the tactics of the res and Mueller, much less any implication that Trump may not have colluded with the Russians:

"Trump's behavior is utter bullshit, and you undermine your own credibility when you defend it.

Posted by: russell | August 21, 2018 at 08:07 AM"

OMG my credibiity is undermined here? lj accuses me of only watching sound bites, Tony just calls me a liar in every comment where he mentions me. I am not sure losing credibility can happen. I do think Trump will be replaced as soon as the new justice is confirmed, it was inconvenient timing to need him to stay for that.

I think Pence will not tweet so much.

[cleek]

real men silence dissent by paying potential dissenters six or seven figures to keep quiet.

[Marty]

That paragraph got screwed. The first was standard bullyingvfctactic of the left to stifle any criticism of the tactics of the press or Mueller:

[cleek]

standard bullyingvfctactic of the left to stifle any criticism of the tactics of the press

all good "conservatives" know that the press is the enemy of the people, and that defending the press against threats of violence made by Trump is stifling dissent.

[liberal japonicus]

lj accuses me of only watching sound bites

Marty, I thought that the video link I gave would give us something to discuss. You either didn't watch it, or you had your line of Clapper and Brennan being Democratic mouthpieces already decided. You certainly didn't refer to anything in the video that I could see. So it isn't an accusation, more of an observation.

I'm really puzzled why you hang out here if you feel that everyone treats you like crap. I acknowledge that you get piled on, and I'm sorry about that, but you seem to invite it by your initial claims about hating Trump but defending him nonetheless. I wouldn't say it's lying, I feel like it is the same thing that I do when I say that I don't want to pile on, but I go ahead and comment. I'm pretty sure that I really don't want to pile on, but it seems like what you say is rooted in some deeply seated cognitive dissonance and I would really like to know what is going on with that. Not really sure why this is, and if you'd like to try and explain it, I'd be interested to know why that is. Perhaps you feel that everyone else is being hypocritical and you are the only one who is hewing to their principles and if that is the case, I'll just leave it be. thanks.

[wj]

I do think Trump will be replaced as soon as the new justice is confirmed, it was inconvenient timing to need him to stay for that.

Marty, I'd be interested in
a) what leads you to believe this? I sure haven't seen much that leads me to think that Congressional Republicans would even consider such a thing.
b) why it needed Trump (as opposed to a President Pence) in order for a new justice to be confirmed. Or even nominated. It's not like the Vice President is some kind of flaming liberal. If anything he's a far more dedicated conservative than Trump.

[cleek]

there's a pure and honest patriotic soul smouldering in the heart of the GOP. they just need to get this nominee through and then they'll let the Flame burn brightly again! Honor will be restored!

LOL

[Hartmut]

I believe a large part of the GOP leadership would like to drop Trump because he is an uncontrollable liability but they fear the base. Pence does not appeal to the really rabid part that wants a regular diet of red meat. And even with all the disenfranchisment measures in place the margin for winning is too small to risk losing the rabids.
They must feel like the DNVP after getting in bed with Mr. Toothbrush Beard.

[Marty]

lj, started to watch it but work interfered. I've seen both of those guys lots of times on TV. So I do have an existing opinion of them. I was surprised at how politicized Brennan has become. Clapper has always been more political.

I will watch the link when I have time today.

[Tony P.]

Marty: Tony just calls me a liar in every comment where he mentions me.

Is that true? Or is it pointless to ask, given that "Truth isn't truth"? No fair peeking in the archive: it's just fake news.

I do recall commenting that "Marty is lying to himself, not us" -- once. I suppose that amounts to calling Marty a liar "every time".

--TP

[russell]

standard bullyingvfctactic of the left to stifle any criticism of the tactics of the press or Mueller:

I guess I'm waiting to hear a substantive criticism of either the press or mueller.

'Brennan and clapper are democratic talking heads' is just not reality. 'mueller is doing prosecutor things' is like yelling at cops for issuing speeding tickets.

I don't know what to say to you, because I have no idea what you're on about or where you're coming from.

is the press supposed to be nice to trump? is mueller not supposed to pursue criminal activity he finds?

I'm at a loss. what is it that you want?

[Countme-a-Demon]

"Brennan and Clapper are Democratic talking heads."

And J. Edgar Hoover is ordering a wedding cake from a Christian baker.

If you choose to climb out the Overton Window, don't merely stand on the ledge and spit into the wind.

Jump!

Brennan is a Muslim too:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cia-director-john-brennan-muslim/

[Countme-a-Demon]

"I am not sure losing credibility can happen."

Well, we live in America, where sewage gets treated and placed back into circulation so we brag that our shit doesn't stink and we can call ourselves exceptional.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

It is quite interesting to watch Marty's evolution from Never-Trumper to Trump-Curious, driving by Cleek's Law.

Thanks, cleek!

[cleek]

obviously, if the left just stifled their criticism of Trump, stopped wanting Mueller to look into the Trump campaign's possible treasonous collusion with a foreign power, ignored the piles of illegal activity by his campaign staff and just let the GOP run things as they are entitled to do, "conservatives" would be fine with whatever the left wanted to talk about.

i can't wait for "conservatives" to start accusing the left of enabling and encouraging Trump's bad behavior because we were so mean to him.

[Marty]

My sense from watching the build up to the election last winter was that the Republicans would find an opportunity to get Trump gone by summer. They could tout the achievements from a conservative standpoint without having to deal with his lunacy.

I think, no facts just my opinion that I haven't heard anyone else espouse, that the opening on the court put them in a bind because they needed to get a nominee quickly and, then, what is the protocol for a nominee that isn't confirmed yet if the President gets taken out for mental unfitness?

Plus they have primaries mostly done, with almost all of the ones Trump campaigned for winning, so do they take him out to try to win the ones in danger or leave him in place to make sure they win the ones in the bag?

The politics are in his favor until the election, barring a more complete meltdown, which, granted, may come.

Finally to answer a question lj asked, I stay here because I think it is the one place that someone may actually think about what I say. Tony doesn't actually say liar, he just calls me a Trump supporter, lj doesn't mind piling on and I am surprised if he doesn't, russell tells me I am somehow demeaning myself by having an alternative opinion, but every one of those reactions is perfectly predictable.

It is a difficult time to discuss things when almost every institution and collegial expectation has been destroyed by the Trump effect. I like to think that despite the meta discussion this place still has a fairly high level of open mindedness buried in the angst and anger. So I stay.

[wj]

My sense from watching the build up to the election last winter was that the Republicans would find an opportunity to get Trump gone by summer.

I completely agree that it would have been the smart thing to do. For the party, not to mention for the country. But I just see no sign that what was obvious to you and me carried any weight with the Republicans in Congress. Or that it will in the future.

[cleek]

why do you think the GOP wants Trump gone?

the base adores him. and they can ride his coattails to resounding defeat in November.

[Marty]

If they can get rid of him because he is mentally impaired due to illness they don't lose the base and they do lose the lunatic fringe. Both are good things. If they take him out by Mueller it is a huge win because that will be perceived as political no matter what the charge, the only way they lose is if they allow impeachment.

The politics are pretty clear, but, the Democrats keep just losing and claiming victory because it was close. Not so sure close losses equate to a blue wave.

[sapient]

Well, Cohen seems to be entering a plea agreement, pleading guilty to campaign violations because of paying off women. Hmmm.

Trump is surrounded by crooks, and he's a crook. His base loves that about him.

[McKinneyTexas]

This leads to the second unfortunate trend during the Trump era: the president’s uncanny ability to induce his critics to break norms in response to his norm-breaking behavior, in the process lending credibility to his critiques.

This sounds about right.

I believe a large part of the GOP leadership would like to drop Trump because he is an uncontrollable liability but they fear the base.

I used to think this, but no longer. They had a chance to do what some have done, which is to call him out. For those few, they've been unelected by the base. There are principled conservatives who despise Trump and will not accept the binary notion of Trump or the Dems. But, for the most part, the Republican Party has buried its collective face in Trump's lap, pardon the visual. They have sold themselves out for near-term electoral advantage. The long term price will be high.

If they can get rid of him because he is mentally impaired due to illness they don't lose the base and they do lose the lunatic fringe. Both are good things. If they take him out by Mueller it is a huge win because that will be perceived as political no matter what the charge, the only way they lose is if they allow impeachment.

Mental impairment requires a majority vote of the cabinet and the VP. That would be seen as a coup. Mueller can't make him leave unless he resigns, which isn't happening. He may be impeached by the house, but he won't be convicted. He stays on and we all have to endure it.

My faint hope is that he tweets himself into irrelevance and that the left realizes that 98% of what he does is of no *real* lasting significance and, with that realization, chills out a little bit. He is almost entirely without substance. Being vilified or threatened by Trump is the best thing that can happen to anyone. What no rational person should ever want is to be seen as Trump's friend. Ten years from now, he will be long gone. Every dumbass who kissed his ass publicly will be persona non grata in decent circles.

None of which is an endorsement of many of the views expressed here about Trump and his supporters, which really are over the top in a lot of different ways.

[sapient]

In other news, the authoritarian party is ramrodding a Supreme Court Justice through the Senate when they're afraid to release all of his records.

Crooks and traitors. Oh, and cowards.

[Marty]

"There are principled conservatives who despise Trump and will not accept the binary notion of Trump or the Dems."

Well it would be nice to give them a third choice.

[wj]

My faint hope is that he tweets himself into irrelevance and that the left realizes that 98% of what he does is of no *real* lasting significance and, with that realization, chills out a little bit. He is almost entirely without substance.

One of the few bright spots in this administration is that, in addition to massive incompetence, this White House (not just Trump, but those around him) has no real clue about how government actually works. Which means that they have no idea how to implement even those ideas which persist longer than the time it takes to fire off a tweet. At lot more damage could be done if they did.

[Marty]

"Which means that they have no idea how to implement even those ideas which persist longer than the time it takes to fire off a tweet. "

Actually, this is not what I believe. I think that beneath the furor there are massive changes being made and the impacts will last long past the Trump years.

By default, some of these I am perfectly fine with, others I disagree with, some I think should have more review in the light of day to decide. But we have so empowered the executive branch I think we are going to pay a price for not paying attention.

Look the president just wrote a 140 character insult of LeBron James, never mind about that EPA stuff. Brennan said Trump is committing treason but has no direct knowledge that it's true, ignore that easing on the stress tests. Wait LeBron answered, wow that was a real gotcha. Huge anti white supremacist rally yesterday, the only white supremacist that showed up was grounded by his dad. Look we reorganized the military and added a space force and hired another 5000 Trump supporters as GS24's, never mind Trump just back handedly insulted Aretha.

He's daft and stupid and bad but, like many stupid bad people, can be clever.

[cleek]

he's not going to become irrelevant. the press loves him, even as he embarrasses the country. he will only fade away if he dies or goes to prison.

and, i'm not seeing any embarrassment. as of last week, he was at 87% approval among Republicans. statistically speaking, Republicans love him. they adore him. they don't want him gone. they aren't embarrassed. they want him to stay in the WH, tweeting like a child, paying off his mistresses, screwing US businesses, remarking how people who don't look like him nevertheless speak "perfect English". they love it all. all of what Fox News tells them, that is.

he's not going anywhere until 2012 at least. and, given how Obama's economy is still chugging along smoothly, there's a chance he's there till 2024.

Not so sure close losses equate to a blue wave.

overall, special elections haven't been looking good for the GOP, despite a few close losses. but i'm not seriously predicting a blue wave. hoping, certainly. but, the (thousands of) elections are still a long ways off. and after 2016 i don't believe polls.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Grassley and republicans are despicable pieces of shit.

The twitter thread says this is the first time since the Civil War this has happened.

Just about everything these people do hasn't happened since the Civil War, except the next Civil War, and it is goddamned fucking time we caught up with that too.

"He stays on and we all have to endure it."

No, we don't. Not with Pence either.

British royalists in the colonies said that about George III too.

I believe Mussolini said roughly the same thing too in Italian minutes before being hoisted upside down along with his mistress, both by the ankles with buckets underneath to gather the blood.