No. Sleep. Till Brooklyn. OpThr

by Ugh

The President is horrible. His Attorney General is horrible. His press secretary is horrible. ICE is horrible. Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan are horrible. The GOP is horrible.

Also, too, horribly racist. The GOP is the party of Sarah Palin on her worst day now.

I mean, fnck.

Open thread......................

Update the First:  Big Business continues to be horrible too.

Update Boogaloo:  The American appetite for cruelty continues to amaze.

Comments

[bob mcmanus]

Read that one of course, and alluded to it in the other thread.

"Most of the women I know are as heartsick about the obscene actions taking place at the borders as I am. I think a year ago we would have been out on the streets, were the government stealing the children of asylum-seekers and refugees and sending them halfway across the country or stacking them up like lumber in detention facilities. But today, I worry, we are horrified but numb. We want to be told what to do."

I don't have that authoritarian mindset.

[CharlesWT]

I don't think Sessions has had a new thought cross his mind since at least the '80s.

[wj]

I don't have that authoritarian mindset.

I think it's fair to say that nobody here has that authoritarian mindset. Not the people I agree with; not the people I disagree with.

Not that many (most? all?) of us wouldn't mind getting to be the authoritarian, in order to deal with some of what we see are obvious problems. Definitely including you, Bob.

[wj]

As we are all aware, the Wall Street Journal has been one of Trump's cheerleaders. So this may be notable:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/talking-to-trump-a-how-to-guide-1516303402

Trump had an idea about how to counter the nuclear threat posed by North Korea, which he got after speaking to Russian President Vladimir Putin: If the U.S. stopped joint military exercises with the South Koreans, it could help moderate Kim Jong Un’s behavior. [Emphasis added]

And this is from one of his fans!

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"I don't think Sessions has had a new thought cross his mind since at least the 1880s."

FIFY

[JanieM]

Snarki, you took the words right out of my...keyboard? You could even say the 1780s.

And quibbling snarkily, or snarking quibblingly, I don't think he's actually ever had a "new" thought at all. It's all the same old racist, bigoted, white supremacist shit it's always been.

[wj]

Janie, I think you have to admit that Sessions doesn't limit his bigotry to racism. He's strong on that, but his range is definitely broader. Given time, for example, look for him to take a shot at rolling back women's suffrage -- not a top priority, but certainly something worth doing as opportunity presents.

[JanieM]

Janie, I think you have to admit that Sessions doesn't limit his bigotry to racism

"Who's a denyin' on it, Betsy Prig?"

(If it's random movie quotes that pop into ugh's head [see his 6/7 post], it's random literary references that pop into mine. And miraculously enough in this case, Google knows.)

[Countme-a-Demon]

I thought Boo Radley done lacerated Session's racist confederate and purely republican spleen with a shiv in the woods in To Kill A Mockingbird once and for all.

It never fucking stops in pigfucking republican America.

Offing Clinton seems a sideshow, but if it shows the vermin murderous subhuman right that we mean business, then proceed. Both sides, they say. Ok, then, right-wing cucks, it'll be both sides if that makes you feel better when slaughter comes your way like a zombie tidal wave.

Bannon and company used the term "cuck" to describe those on the left and the moderate right whose women succumbed to the big black Obama cock.

Mp was quoted the other day by Mila Brysinski spell it yourselves as regretting that living in the White House prevents him from watching porn.

Probably the cuckolding mattress pissing variety.

This presentation of shitfuck racism in the year of our Lord 2018 will be avenged with savage, unending violence.

Mp himself is reason for unending slaughter. We'll skip the torture. It takes time, and mp wouldn't be pleased with the expense to his cocksucking high-end taxpayers.

Heading for Brooklyn, as it happens, next Tuesday via subway from Manhatten to peruse old haunts.

Mp admires the servility rocket boy's "people" accord the latter. I kind of like rocket boy's butchering of his enemies, including family, at close range with anti-aircraft weaponry.

So stand up straight mp cucks when he addresses you as he did yesterday with his barrage of pigshit lies. Lick his balls.

I'm looking forward to that practice being adopted here, perhaps alongside the reflecting ponds in D.C, one republican after another, it will take years to finish the job, one dead fuck an hour. We'll save mp for the last shell, maybe move the antiaircraft weapon a little closer.

I'm reading liberal Mark Lilla and conservative Patrick Deneen this trip.

All very well, but they have no idea what is required to kill this bug up the American ass.

[sapient0]

Offing Clinton seems a sideshow, but if it shows the vermin murderous subhuman right that we mean business, then proceed.,

F you, Count. I know you don't mean it, but we don't need it.

[Countme-a-Demon]

So, I'm sitting in a cafe on the upper east side that has mp's trademark feces name on it. Having a Guinness.

I'm such a hypocrite. But maybe it's stalking instead.

Paul Simon is on the TV. There is no bomb in the baby carriage, but neither is there a baby in the baby carriage I have with me.

The 2016 election was stolen, as was 2000. Mp stood at the dais and requested that Russia fuck Clinton. It's on tape.

Whether I fuck off or not, and maybe I will, the Republican Party needs to be shown resolute unending savagery from A to Z.

Don't govern me. It will be a crime punishable by NRA supplied weaponry.

[sapient0]

Whether I fuck off or not, and maybe I will, the Republican Party needs to be shown resolute unending savagery from A to Z.

So, okay. I know [knew] people who have offed themselves. I knew them well and intimately. If you're considering that, and I know that a lot of people that I love (and am angry at) do, please think again. It's a selfish move. I know - we're supposed to be compassionate and forgiving. But it's a suicide bombing to people who love youl

I love my suicide people. But, no, I don't forgive them.

[sapient0]

Actually, I do forgive them. But it's wrong, and don't do it, and don't talk about doing it.

[sapient0]

And call the suicide line: 1-800-273-8255

[Countme-a-Demon]

Sapient, get a grip.

Abraham Lincoln was not a suicide. Jeff Sessions and mp of their day shot him in the head.

I'll be alive to see them executed, whether it is accomplished through liberal rule of law or somehow accomplished via the preferred NRA republican way, via militia high school violence.

The fact that Mueller is a republican as is Rosenstein, this a reminder to Marty, is a little window for America to possibly survive in some agonizing, uneasy jerry-rigged version of itself, that bedtime story we tell each other.

I' m living thru this. But thanks.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Mp told the Japanese premier that he was going to ship 25 million Mexicans to Japan.

Fine. Japan should train them to be karaoke kamikazi pilots to attack and nuke 25 million sadistic vermin subhuman republicans in the American Nazi homeland.

Target Washington D.C.

America is a disgrace.

Kill it.

[russell]

dude, too much. thanks!

[bob mcmanus]

Showing my secret true colors, I must announce my raw screaming fury at the total loss of the Glasgow School of Art Library in a second recent fire. This is one of the treasures of humankind, its glory, its only excuse or redeeming act, more irreplaceable because really not restorable, than the Mona Lisa, Parthenon, Taj Mahal.

Sprinklers would spoil the design? Can't afford three night watchpersons, four dogs and a parakeet? Ask for volunteers. Alarms gauche?

Scotland has proven itself totally incapable of self-governance and should be reabsorbed into Britain with loss of all autonomy. I am still considering what collective punishment is appropriate for the Scots. There is no shame great enough, no pain adequate. Considering depopulation and transport.

You have no idea how serious I am.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"I am still considering what collective punishment is appropriate for the Scots. There is no shame great enough, no pain adequate"

Haggis.

[CharlesWT]

Big Business continues to be horrible too.

Big business continues to be wonderful too. At least from my point of view.

"Stunningly, the EU flinched. 'A campaign backed by French retailer Carrefour that called on the European Union to abandon restrictions on the sale of many different types of organic fruit and vegetable seed has apparently achieved a major breakthrough, following a decision by European agriculture ministers to relax EU-wide regulations that had been in place since 1981,' FruitNet reported."
A French Grocer Protested Stupid EU Food Regulations and Won: Carrefour used artful civil disobedience and smart marketing to challenge ridiculous regulations.

[Michael Cain]

OTOH, Zinke/Pruitt/Perry don't seem to have done anything new to screw up the environment and/or electricity this past week. Granted that's a pretty narrow window, but it's the narrow window I have chosen to worry about. There are lots of people worrying about the other things :^)

[bob mcmanus]

Netflix Binge Factory ...content is queen. Sales, ratings, reputation nothing matters except quantity of content.

Anime industry watchers are looking at Japan as canary in he coalmine. 10 years ago, they were producing say 50 new projects in a season. Now they are pushing out hundreds, maybe 500 per quarterly season. They are outsourcing to neighbors (and help build indigenous producers) and still working animators to literal death at their desks and still putting out product that is unfinished and barely watchable and then cleaning it up for the DVD release, which is where the studios make their money.

Because they can sell anything and everything to streaming services. As much as they can put out.

One hit pays for ten flops.

Not only can no one keep up and we know we are missing great stuff, but the drop in quality, both story and presentation, makes us feel something like suckers.

Yet it is the cross-fertilization and unlimited opportunity that enables a few to gather resources (mainly artists exhausted with hack work and needing self-respect) and create a few modern masterpieces. Maybe more, maybe less than 15 years ago.

So much more. We are drowning in an ocean of shit with embedded diamonds, and people are withdrawing to niches where at least our very limited expertise can let us pretend we are actually discriminating.

Like hyperpartisan and divisive political affiliations or nomadic consumption.

This is Marx's prediction of overproduction breaking and burying the system. And the need of capital to continually reduce real wages and hyperexploit labour. We are finally seeing what it looks like.

Anxiety, gluttony, and obesity.

[CharlesWT]

So, the answer to what everyone will be doing after the robots take all the jobs: Creating/watching Netflix content.

My rule of thumb for watching streaming content is a greater than 6.0 IMDb rating for movies and a 7.5 for series. Main exceptions are the occasional brain-dead action movie.

[Michael Cain]

So, the answer to what everyone will be doing after the robots take all the jobs: Creating/watching Netflix content.

F*ck that. I'll write and read. But I'm old...

[Nigel]

Find reviewers you trust for genres you’re interested in, and it’s not so tough to navigate the ocean of dross, Bob.

An interesting development is crowd sourced subtitling, which provides its own form of discriminating - cf Rakuten Viki:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44453310

[Nigel]

Very interesting post, and comments, over at emptywheel:
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/06/16/before-january-trump-suggested-manafort-could-flip-on-him-since-then-trump-learned-mueller-wanted-to-know-about-manaforts-requests-to-russia-for-help/

[JanieM]

F*ck that. I'll write and read. But I'm old...

I'm with you on all counts. :-)

But having heard some stories lately from a young friend who words in the world of intelligent vehicles, I'm even less worried than I was before about the imminence of idleness-for-all.

[JanieM]

works, not words

[wj]

Those of us who remain interested in the world around us should have few problems. It's the people who have nothing, outside maybe their jobs, who are at risk. And they're at risk whether they leave those jobs at retirement or get laid off long term earlier.

[JanieM]

Modern gizmo still needs tweaking.

Mass shootings now so common that they don't even get the big headlines any more.

Mood for a beautiful summer weekend: chainsaw noise, burning brush pile smoke, lawnmower noise, weed whacker noise, motorcycle noise, scissor-jack engine noise (don't ask), second lawnmower noise.

I need to move further into the woods.

Yes, these are first world problems. Along with the high tree and grass pollen counts and the plague of Lyme disease-carrying ticks...

Actually, on second thought, Lyme disease is no one's minor problem at this point.

[wj]

I find myself seeing the (extremely local) upside to climate change: we keep having beautiful summer days with highs in the mid-70s -- as opposed to the 90s and up, which would be more usual. Yes, the rain/snow fall levels on which our water supplies depend have been down consistently. But at least there seems to be some up side.

And no, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be doing something to deal with global warming. A few local pluses don't offset far more widespread disasters in the offing.

[JanieM]

Very locally, I think it's still far too soon to tell what the effects of climate change will be in any given neighborhood. But anecdotally, where I live is in an pocket that has been, on average, cooler lately rather than warmer. Yet again, the winters haven't been cold enough to keep the ticks down, or to keep the ground as well watered with snowmelt as it "should" be.

As wj says, there is scant consolation in small and seemingly positive local effects if the whole food chain is at risk.

[Nigel]

Still need tweaking...

Indeed. But plans are in train:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-Trends/Battery-wars-Japan-teams-up-for-next-gen-electric-cars

[CharlesWT]

In the Dallas area, the winter wasn't particularly cold, but there was a long stretch through January and February where it was continuously cold with no intermittent warm days that the area usually has. The ornamental pear trees, that sometimes bloom as early as the first of February, didn't bloom until March first. There haven't been many insects so far. Not even mosquitoes. I didn't hear the first cicada until June 8th. They usually appear about June first. Could be just a swarm behavior difference.

For the US, one source said that April was one of the coldest on record and May was the hottest on record.

A benefit of the increasing CO2 levels in recent decades is that the planet as a whole seems to be getting greener.

[wj]

Dr S, condolences on the loss of your family member. It's a situation where I never know what to say. Sadly, this is the best I can do.

[russell]

climate change is going to be great news for some parties. extinction for one species clears the field for another. there will be upsides.

and humans have lived on the planet when its been both warmer (or at least as warm) and colder than it is now. our big brains help us adapt.

what hasn't been the case up to now is 7 billion people, many of whom live in already marginal circumstances, responding to widespread changes to, or loss of, resources that provide their means of existence.

the EU has had to absorb millions of refugees from war zones, and that has stressed alliances that have kept that continent mostly peaceful and prosperous. suddenly fascism looks good again.

the US finds itself unable to respond to tens of thousands of migrants trying to escape violence and disorder in a humane and sensible way. suddenly putting kids in camps by the hundreds or thousands looks good.

what happens when, not thousands or a few million, but tens or hundreds of millions of people find it necessary to relocate? because the water has dried up (see also darfur), or the rains don't come, or their home is underwater?

163 million people live bangladesh.

how fast could that happen? the younger dryas was likely a "local" effect (northern hemisphere, worst in northern europe), caused by freshwater runoff into the north atlantic as glaciers melted. temperature changes were extremely abrupt, as much as 10C in a decade.

whatever we decide to do going forward, some degree of change is already baked in. and we're not really doing that much going forward anyway, least of all the US.

so some places will see pleasant changes, but there may also be changes that are catastrophic. at least at a regional or local level.

i'm not even getting into stuff like intensively built-up urban waterfronts dealing with (very expensive) water level rise. urban coastal elites better learn how to swim.

i'm also not getting into large scale extinctions due to loss of habitat. we're not the only species being affected.

as far as i can tell, nobody is doing a damned thing of significance to prepare. at a very local level - individual coastal cities - some planning has started. what are our plans for dealing with 10x the refugee flow that we already see? or increased ranges of tropical diseases? or loss of land that can be farmed in any but the most capital-intensive way, due to changes in weather patterns and/or insect populations and/or whatever else?

what i think is that however the actual climate changes play out, they will find us utterly unpepared and responding in purely reactive ways. and that is not going to be very pretty.

[cleek]

A benefit of the increasing CO2 levels in recent decades is that the planet as a whole seems to be getting greener.

don't forget, plants aren't just tuned to temperature. they're also tuned to growing season length and amount of sunlight - and those are tied to latitude. so, as things get hotter, don't expect you can just shift crops towards the poles, chasing the temperatures they prefer. some will be OK with it, some won't.

[hairshirthedonist]

And lines of latitude, which are circles, get smaller and smaller as you get closer to the poles, meaning less and less land mass (despite what the distortions of 2-D maps might have you believe).

[J R in WV]

I'm an old, 67 now, so I may not live to see the extreme changes I expect. Or maybe I will... we shall see how fast it happens.

cleek, nice to see you here... pleasant surprise.

[wj]

there may also be changes that are catastrophic

To take only the most obvious major catastrophe: Bangladesh. 150 million people living in mostly marginal circumstances . . . on land which is likely to be flooded by rising sea levels. Whether it is "merely" 10% of the available farm land, or more, it will be bad. And there isn't exactly a lot of open space in neighboring countries for them to move to.

[Countme-a-Demon]

I'm working on a process to convert Limbaugh, Imhofe, mp, Pruitt, and millions of other American conservative ratfuckers who, as we speak, are engaged in the republican book burning of destroying weather data, preventing any further gathering of such data, and denying weather scientists their first amendment rights by forbidding them the mention or publication of climate change analyses or even the words "climate change" into food pellets for the surviving decent human beings in this benighted world.

One impediment early in the process is the separation of the lead fragments from the dead ratfucker meat, but this is ameliorated somewhat by the fact that much of the product has been ground up with the initial application of machetes.

Of course, there is the problem too that discriminating diners may turn their nose up at the prospect of consuming ratfucker meat.

Well, more for the rats then.

Blaise Pascal didn't have that problem in the punishment he posited for those who lost HIS wager, allowing God to sort that out in eternity's good time.

We can't afford to not act in this life, in the here and the now.

Bangladesh, for it's part, must begin building a defensive nuclear capability, to be launched in increments at the concentrated areas of America infested by the reds ...... say one nuclear warhead per inch of sea water rise encroachment into the Ganges-Brahmaputra Delta.

[cleek]

cleek, nice to see you here... pleasant surprise.

ditto!

[wj]

From the You Can't Make This Stuff Up file
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/18/1772955/-Republicans-have-a-more-favorable-view-of-North-Korean-dictator-than-of-Democratic-opposition-leader

I weep for my party.

[cleek]

Republicans have a more favorable view of North Korean dictator than of Democratic opposition leader

Real Americans ™ have always loved North Korea.

[hairshirthedonist]

At least Iran is still in the Axis of Evil.

[wj]

At least Iran is still in the Axis of Evil.

Of course. After all, they were always by far the least deserving of inclusion. (It deserves to be kept in mind that, when the US was ramping up to invade Afghanistan, Iran volunteered to provide us with open transit to get there. We didn't even deign to reply. Apparently preferring to pay vast sums to Pakistan, . . . which was helping fund the Taliban.)

[russell]

Well, more for the rats then.

this is the motto for a world I have not yet had the misfortune to live in.

but I'm saving it, just in case.

[Tony P.]

wj,

Don't weep. It's not your party any more. McConnell and Ryan turned it over to He, Trump long ago. Let the Martys of the world keep it.

At this point, voting for ANY Republican, at ANY level, is straight-up complicity with Sado-Capitalism's enablers. Yes, even Charlie Baker or Susan Collins.

Make America Decent Again. Vote the GOP out of power and then, maybe, you can tow it into drydock and salvage any useful bits out of the rat shit.

--TP

[wj]

At this point, voting for ANY Republican, at ANY level, is straight-up complicity with Sado-Capitalism's enablers. Yes, even Charlie Baker or Susan Collins.

I have to disagree. I can see an argument when it comes to Congress. After all, it's pretty urgent to change the guys who control what even gets a vote: the Speaker and Majority Leader.

But at the state and local level? How else do you propose to get the GOP turned around? Or is there a (secret) realistic plan to create a new alternate national party?

[Tony P.]

No secret, wj.

Defeat Republicans at every level until the RWNJ contingent gets the message that their heyday is over. That's my proposition.

Is there a "reasonable" Republican running for local office, somewhere, who is "reasonable" for any reason other than his or her rejection of current GOP dogma?

--TP

[wj]

Yes, actually.

Catherine Baker, 16th Assembly District, California:
https://ad16.asmrc.org/

And a quick overview of her position on the issues:
http://www.bakerforassembly.com/

Just one other little bit of information: she routinely holds joint town-hall meetings in the district with our state senator, who is a Democrat. In other words, she's far more interested in serving the people of her district than in partisanship.

[byomtov]

No, wj, I don't buy it.

Baker may be a fine person and whatnot, but at this point once you accept the Republican label you need to lose, IMO.

Call it collateral damage if you like, but the Republican Party needs to be wiped out at all levels.

[CharlesWT]

Both parties aren't doing so well when less than a third of voters identify as Democrat and about a quarter identify as Republican.

[sapient]

Both parties aren't doing so well when less than a third of voters identify as Democrat and about a quarter identify as Republican.

Not sure whether a link has been provided (upthread?), but "identify as" bears a heavy burden these days,

I "identify as" a Democrat. Lots of people have been persuaded, for whatever reason (despite evidence), that they should evaluate candidates based on "the best person". It's their civic duty, they think, to give all persons running a fair chance.

It doesn't mean much because they'll still vote on "the issues" or their tribe.

[CharlesWT]

My comment was base on what I remembered from a chart that was a couple years old. There's been some convergence recently.

"WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Last year, 42% of Americans, on average, identified as political independents, erasing the decline to 39% seen in the 2016 presidential election year. Independent identification is just one percentage point below the high of 43% in 2014. Twenty-nine percent of Americans identify themselves as Democrats and 27% as Republicans."
Americans' Identification as Independents Back Up in 2017

[Tony P.]

The "27% crazification factor" has been well-known for over a decade now.

The first "issue" any legislator gets to vote on is: who shall be Speaker? who shall be Majority Leader? IOW, who gets to decide what legislation gets voted on, and NOT voted on?

To be a Republican legislator is to vote for the likes of Ryan and McConnell. Period. Except maybe in California, where the GOP (at the state level) has begun to show signs of sanity -- the result of getting hit upside the head the way the national GOP needs to be.

Next time McKinney or Marty pop in, somebody needs to ask each of them: do you intend to vote, in November, for congressmen and senators who will vote for McConnell and (probably) McCarthy? If yes, their protestations of disdain for He, Trump are no more than a fig leaf

--TP

[wj]

the Republican Party needs to be wiped out at all levels.

Here's the thing. I don't think our system of government works well without an alternative "party of government". (Feel free to provide evidence otherwise. But that's my take.)

So, that being the case, either
a) we need the Republican Party to get hauled back to sanity, or
b) we need a new alternative party.

For a), we need to keep electing any sane Republicans who appear. Think of it as implementing survival of the fittest -- which necessitates that the fit actually do survive. By all means vote out the nut cases at every level. And, as I said, I can see the current necessity of voting even relatively sane Republicans down in Congressional races. But otherwise, no.

For b), we need some sign of said new party. Which could certainly appear. But until and unless it does, we would be fools to foreclose option a).

[Tony P.]

wj,

You seem to labor under the delusion that if Democrats won 100% of the seats in any legislature on Tuesday, they would NOT split into two different parties by Wednesday:)

--TP

[JanieM]

What TP said. :-)

What worries me is that it's going to happen without the precondition.

[byomtov]

Tony is correct on all counts.

There is, in effect, no such thing as a "moderate, sensible" Republican in Congress.

There are moderate sensible people in Congress who are Republicans, but once they put on the GOP badge they are empowering an odious President and an insane right-wing agenda. They are simply cowards.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

When people discuss who could be considered a "good Republican", at least at the national level, it always seems to be limited to ones like Lincoln, TR, Ike. All safely dead.

The inevitable conclusion is "the only good Republican is a dead Republican".

I'm sure Count could get behind that idea.

[cleek]

i have no doubt that there are moderate sensible Republicans at (nearly) all levels of government. the problem is that they are too concerned about their electoral prospects to buck Trump on anything.

the problem is the GOP base. it demands stupid representatives and punishes anyone who tries to be smart.

[bobbyp]

Apparently wj is not familiar with the history of the US version of the Whig Party.

[bobbyp]

What worries me is that it's going to happen without the precondition.

It didn't happen when TR ran the "Bull Moose" campaign. It didn't happen when Henry Wallace ran in '48. The Know Nothings were sucked up into the Borg. The Strom Thurmond Democrats morphed into the Strom Thurman Republicans.

Contra wj, the two major parties are sorting out into two distinctly ideological poles. The GOP base has taken over their party. The Democratic "left" is, um....torn, and still under the spell of idiosyncratic 3rd party suicide runs that have helped to elect two GOP minority presidents who never should have been able to take the Oath of Office. Maybe the 3rd time will be the charm!

Knowing the "Left" as I do, I assess this possibility as "somewhat unlikely".

Time will tell......

[byomtov]

the problem is that they are too concerned about their electoral prospects to buck Trump on anything.

F their electoral prospects.

Are they going to go hungry if they don't reelected? I doubt it. And some - I'm looking at you, Sen.Flake - aren't running. Others - Hey! you! Collins, Sasse! - aren't up this year. (And is Collins in any danger anyway?)

So show some guts. Stop talking and condemning and bemoaning and do something. Caucus with the Democrats, for example. Or something else.

[byomtov]

Oh yeah. I forgot. Add a retiring Corker to the list. And what the hell happened to Lamar Alexander? He used to be a decent intelligent guy. I even voted for him for Governor when I lived in TN.

Alexander is 78 and his term ends in two years. Is he worried about re-election? Really?

[wj]

Apparently wj is not familiar with the history of the US version of the Whig Party.

Actually, I am. But while I could see a historical analogy of the Whigs and the current GOP, what I'm not seeing, at least yet, is a current manifestation of the mid-1800s Republican Party.

And you will note that I have not argued for voting even for what I could consider sensible Republicans for Congress. Precisely because I have yet to see one in Congress who also has the courage to denounce Trump for what he is.

But that still doesn't address why one couldn't support them locally. It's not like my state legislator is going to be in much of a position to act on national issues. (AND, I would note, my Republican state legislator has been voting to do things like California-based greenhouse gas restrictions, etc. that are directly contrary to Trump policies.)

[russell]

seems on topic.

[Marty]

Oddly, there is still the notion that policy isn't driving the GOP to support Trump.

It is hard to find a policy, not a flash in the pan problem like kids separated at the border like they have been for a few decades, but a real underlying policy where Trump doesn't represent the long held GOP podition.

He's a crook, a blowhard, a misogynist, a racist, and an ass in every personal attribute. But no Republican is going to caucas with the Democrats based on that. He still supports GOP policies almost down the line. The Democrats are not an acceptable alternative, as they weren't in the election.

[CharlesWT]

"With Trump at the helm, Schmidt said the GOP has become “corrupt, indecent and immoral,” with the exception of just a few Republican governors."

Trump is an effect, not a cause.

[wj]

kids separated at the border like they have been for a few decadesweeks

Fixed that for you. Everyone, even Trump, Sessions, et al., says that this is a NEW policy implemented by this administration.

There is disagreement over whether it is something required by the law or not -- with damn few lawyers, even among Republicans in Congress agreeing that it is. But there is no disagreement over when it started being done. Until now....

[cleek]

He's a crook, a blowhard, a misogynist, a racist, and an ass in every personal attribute. But no Republican is going to caucas with the Democrats based on that.

yup.

and may they all burn.

[bobbyp]

Actually, I am.

LOL...well, wj, my remark was in reply to the following assertion:

Here's the thing. I don't think our system of government works well without an alternative "party of government".

The demise of the Whigs was tied to the issue over slavery. They could not survive with a foot in both camps. Nonetheless, a rival "governing party" was readily available.

Under our current institutional system, this will always be the case, and I find your concern somewhat self serving as you twist yourself into knots to not be a "Democrat".

I tried to look up C. Baker's political positions, but with little luck. If I had a chance to meet her, I would ask her, "Why the f@ck are you a Republican?"

What do you think she would say?

Have a good one!

[bobbyp]

It is hard to find a policy, not a flash in the pan problem like kids separated at the border like they have been for a few decades, but a real underlying policy where Trump doesn't represent the long held GOP podition.

Trump has no positions. Positions are handed to him by the GOP Congress and all he wants is to take the credit.

Where does he depart? I'd say immigration, trade, and foreign policy.....for staters.

[wj]

The demise of the Whigs was tied to the issue over slavery. They could not survive with a foot in both camps. Nonetheless, a rival "governing party" was readily available.

Under our current institutional system, this will always be the case

My recollection (history class was a while ago) is that the Republican Party was formed, and growing to a significant size, well before the demise of the Whigs. But I could be mistaken on that. I am sure that the Republicans didn't form due to the Democrats splitting after the demise of the Whigs.

At the moment, I'm not seeing a "readily available" alternative party. If you see one, please point me to it.

[Tony P.]

Well, folks, we've heard it from the horse's mouth: He, Trump is a crook, a blowhard, a misogynist, a racist, and an ass in every personal attribute, but he's a Republican dagnabbit! So take that libs!

That He, Trump (crook, blowhard, misogynist, racist) was the sack of shit deliberately nominated for president by one of our major parties does not invalidate wj's premise that we need two parties. But it dings it a bit.

BTW, anybody who types "a flash in the pan problem like kids separated at the border" while pretending to be disgusted by He, Trump is my idea of a Republican. Good job, Marty!

--TP

[Marty]

Except we CBS interviewed an Obama HHS official today who confirmed the centers were opened under his watch.

[byomtov]

Link, Marty?

[russell]

There is disagreement over whether it is something required by the law or not

What is required by law is that kids can't be held in criminal detention facilities. And, as of Flores, that they have to be held in the least restrictive accommodation possible.

The reason they have to be separated from their parents is that their parents are being held in facilities intended for criminal cases.

The reason that their parents are being held in facilities intended for criminal cases is that US policy under Sessions is that all attempts to enter the US without prior authorization and permission are to be treated as criminal cases.

To refresh all of our memories, per the US Code:

* entering the US other than through an authorized entry point - i.e., "sneaking in" - is a misdemeanor.
* attempting to enter the US other than through an authorized entry point is a civil offense.
* presenting yourself at an authorized entry point and request asylum is no offense at all

All of these cases are being as criminal offenses requiring the adults to be held in criminal facilities.

That *is not* required by law. And, doing so has not been the policy of the US for decades. To say otherwise is a lie. People who persist in saying otherwise are liars.

But no Republican is going to caucas with the Democrats based on that.

That's exactly right. And (R)'s will be required to own the fact that they support the regime of someone who is a crook, a blowhard, a misogynist, a racist, and an ass in every personal attribute. Along with whatever damage to the nation those qualities incur. In order to get their way on policy.

It's pick a side time. It's either more important to preserve the basic integrity of the office of POTUS, and the executive in general, along with all of the public institutions that go along with it, or it's more important to get your way on your favorite policies. Pick one, because you can't have both.

Whichever one you pick, you will own.

[cleek]

Except we CBS interviewed an Obama HHS official today who confirmed the centers were opened under his watch.

the centers were used to housed unaccompanied minors.

Trump's policy is new. FFS, quit covering for him.

[cleek]

It's pick a side time.

they picked their in 2016. Trump ran on this stuff: nationalism, xenophobia, and explicit and vocal disdain for laws that challenge the authority of the President to whatever the fuck he wants at any time.

nothing he's doing has deviated from that.

this is the GOP. this is what they want. well, actually they want more of it, faster, harder and with less lube.

they're deplorable, top to bottom.

[Marty]

No Russell. Presenting at an entry point is not being treated as an offense. CBS news confirmed this morning.

[sapient]

No Russell. Presenting at an entry point is not being treated as an offense. CBS news confirmed this morning.

You're not providing a link, Marty. It's easy to do.

The fact is, they aren't being allowed to present themselves at an entry point. You're okay with letting people die when we can very easily accommodate them, and doing so would also help our own country. Many people who support this cruel policy call themselves pro-life.

[Ugh]

this is the GOP. this is what they want. well, actually they want more of it, faster, harder and with less lube.

they're deplorable, top to bottom.

OMG win

[Nigel]

It might be worth noting that most illegal immigrants seem to be those who overstayed visas...
https://qz.com/988951/the-us-is-finally-telling-the-public-who-overstays-their-visas-the-most-and-its-not-mexicans/

So,much for ‘infesting’.

Also of note for Marty’s position is that even France’s Le Pen won’t defend Trump’s policy....

[russell]

Presenting at an entry point is not being treated as an offense.

What does that mean?

Presenting as what? Request for asylum? Attempted entry without a visa?

What does "not being treated as an offense" mean? People aren't being held in a criminal facility? People aren't being held at all? Adults are not being separated from children?

And what about the people who don't "present at an entry point", but who attempt to enter elsewhere?

And WTF does CBS know about it? Are they doing any investigation, or are they simply reporting what the feds are telling them?

You haven't addressed any point made in my prior post.

[russell]

This seems fairly thorough.

[CharlesWT]

It appears that the government is refusing entry to asylum seekers who present themselves at ports of entry. And then treats them as criminals when they get desperate and enter illegally.

[JanieM]

russell: It's pick a side time. It's either more important to preserve the basic integrity of the office of POTUS, and the executive in general, along with all of the public institutions that go along with it, or it's more important to get your way on your favorite policies. Pick one, because you can't have both.

cleek: they picked their in 2016. Trump ran on this stuff

They picked when they refused to consider Merrick Garland for the Supreme Court.

[wj]

this is the GOP. this is what they want. well, actually they want more of it, faster, harder and with less lube.

they're deplorable, top to bottom.

That is just as defensible as saying "Americans elected Trump. They are deplorable top to bottom." Which I think pretty much everybody here (at least while Bob M is away) would dispute.

Now if you want to say "a majority of Republican voters...", well that's at least defensible. And if you want to say "the vast majority (or all, not to quibble) of Republicans in Congress...", that too is defensible. But "top to bottom" is not.

[JanieM]

The idea that this is simply a continuation of an Obama-era practice is "preposterous," said Denise Gilman, director of the Immigration Clinic at the University of Texas Law School. "There were occasionally instances where you would find a separated family — maybe like one every six months to a year — and that was usually because there had been some actual individualized concern that there was a trafficking situation or that the parent wasn’t actually the parent."

From NBC.

[CharlesWT]

The founders seeming intended for the legislative branch to be a first among equals. But the House and the Senate have been abdicating their role and avoiding leadership and legislation on any number of serious problems, including immigration, for decades.

Trump is one of the symptoms of Congress's failings.

[cleek]

That is just as defensible as saying "Americans elected Trump. They are deplorable top to bottom."

fewer than 19% of Americans voted for Trump. more people voted for Clinton than voted for Trump. Trump is not the choice of Americans, he's the choice of Republicans.

But "top to bottom" is not.

oh, it's close enough.

90% of Republicans currently approve of Trump. 90%. it's his party now.

[Girl from the North Country]

This is just unutterably distressing and depressing, even before cleek's horrifying 90% statistic. Sorry to state the obvious.

On another note, Corey "Womp womp" Lewandowski is the perfect exemplar of these people - on the spur of the moment and without any thought or self-censorship he perfectly demonstrated their moral bankruptcy and mass psychopathy. It took me a while to find out what womp womp meant, but when I did, I thought it should be this administration's slogan.

[Pro Bono]

My understanding, foreigner as I am, is that the US constitution divides power between Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches.

The legislature is responsible for making law, the executive is responsible for running the country.

Arguably it doesn't matter if a legislator is a crook, a blowhard, a misogynist, a racist, and an ass in every personal attribute, so long as he votes for good laws.

But it matters very much if the President, who heads the executive branch, is a crook, a blowhard, a misogynist, a racist, and an ass in every personal attribute. Because the country relies on his knowledge, wisdom, probity, and competence in decision making and international diplomacy. Relying on Trump for those qualities is an obvious and potentially catastrophic blunder. There can be no justification for anyone, even a Republican, not to have done everything they can to keep him from power.

[wj]

I realize that it can be tedious to have to actually look at individuals, rather than just saying "every member of X group is ______." But doing the latter is indefensible, just as it is when applied to ethnic groups or genders or other groups you would leap to defend.

Come on guys. Is it really too hard to admit that some Republicans might actually be acceptable on every other grounds?

[cleek]

10% of Republicans might be fine, in exactly the same way 10% of the wheat in a bag of spoiled wheat might be fine.

the good news is that Republicans are not seeds. they can get out of the bag.

[Tony P.]

Pro Bono, minor nit: the POTUS runs the government, not the country.

--TP

[Girl from the North Country]

So, it seems the child-separation policy is temporarily suspended, whatever that means...

[cleek]

but that's impossible ! it was "the law" ! his hands were tied !