Wolf at the door open thread

by liberal japonicus

Not really a great title, but I've been taking in a little of the discussion about Michelle Wolf's monologue at the WHCD. And we are in need of an open thread and it's a bummer seeing "What is racism?" every time in the sidebar (and yes, that is privilege talking, cause I can step back from it) Anyway, stuff below the fold.

Here's Michelle Wolf's full monologue, if you haven't seen it.

and the transcript is here

When I watched Colbert eviscerate Bush, I felt squeamish. Even a bit sorry for Bush. I know, stupid, but it was a simpler time. But this time, not one iota. If that makes me a crappy person, so be it.

I'll take as my jumping off point David Frum's tut tutting in the Atlantic. He quotes his own book (convenient, that) and says

As Donald Trump is cruel, vengeful, egoistic, ignorant, lazy, avaricious, and treacherous, so we must be kind, forgiving, responsible, informed, hardworking, generous, and patriotic. As Trump’s enablers are careless, cynical, shortsighted, morally obtuse, and rancorous, so Trump’s opponents must be thoughtful, idealistic, wise, morally sensitive, and conciliatory. ‘They go low, we go high,’ as a wise woman said.

Yeah, whatever. Wolf's jokes were carefully crafted and the set was not "careless, cynical, shortsighted, [and] morally obtuse", it was the opposite. Rancorous, I'd grant, but when you are talking about a noise machine like this administration, how else do you propose to make people listen?

Finally, the last part of Wolf's monologue seems to have been ignored.

There’s a ton of news right now, a lot is going on, and we have all these 24-hour news networks, and we could be covering everything. Instead, we’re covering three topics. Every hour is Trump, Russia, Hillary, and a panel full of people that remind you why you don’t go home for Thanksgiving. [imitating grumpy relative's voice] "Milk comes from nuts now all because of the gays."

You guys are obsessed with Trump. Did you used to date him? Because you pretend like you hate him, but I think you love him. I think what no one in this room wants to admit is that Trump has helped all of you. He couldn’t sell steaks or vodka or water or college or ties or Eric, but he has helped you. He’s helped you sell your papers and your books and your TV. You helped create this monster, and now you’re profiting off of him. If you’re going to profit off of Trump, you should at least give him some money, because he doesn’t have any.

Have at it.

Comments

[russell]

Hadn't heard Wolf's monologue, wasn't that interested in it. But, prompted by this post, I went and read it.

If anyone thinks it's all about Wolf cutting Sanders because of her appearance, it ain't. Go read it. Here.

What it was, was an ferocious equal opportunity take-down of pretty much everyone involved in our public life today. I found it harsh but refreshing.

LJ omitted the last paragraph-plus-one-sentence. The last sentence:

Flint still doesn’t have clean water.

Folks should be grateful Wolf is just a comedian. Comedians turn anger into jokes. Other folks do other things with anger.

[Girl from the North Country]

Thanks for this, lj, that's the first time I've had time and space to watch Wolf's full remarks. I agree with you - it's good, and justified. The only questionable thing (which sort of explains all the criticism of her for going after Huckabee Sanders's looks) is her likening SHS to Aunt Lydia. It is harsh, but there is actually something of a resemblance, and more to the point, as an avatar of the religious right because of her father, it makes proper sense. It was a good set. But as well as criticism along the lines that opponents of Trump et al should "go high when they go low", you can't ignore this element: that Wolf is a woman, and women who are too sharp, critical and tough are always criticised and traduced. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

p.s. Sorry for putting the Cambridge Analytica stuff in What is Racism, which was not an open thread. My thread discipline is lousy!

[cleek]

all the moaning about Wolf is fake. it's theater. it's flopping on the pitch, grabbing your leg - oops, no not that leg! the other leg! - and crying trying to draw a penalty against the other team.

the press isn't going to admit they're bad at their jobs. they're going to study the tape over and over, brows furrowed in performative judiciousness, trying to decide if there was illegal contact. the players all know it's fake. but the refs can't admit it.

[liberal japonicus]

Russell, I did want to include that last line, but wanted to leave out the loose change joke, which doesn't work as a quote because she set it up earlier in the set. But yeah, that last line must have left a mark. Or should have.

GftNC, yes, the sexist angle to the complaints about Wolf's set is telling. Unrelated to that, but related to sexism was this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/dining/alice-waters-egg-spoon-me-too-movement.html

[ral]

I recommend listening to Terry Gross interviewing Michelle Wolf (Fresh Air). Re: Sarah Sanders, among other things.

[byomtov]

"Going high" does not mean not fighting back.

As Donald Trump is cruel, vengeful, egoistic, ignorant, lazy, avaricious, and treacherous, so we must be kind, forgiving, responsible, informed, hardworking, generous, and patriotic.

Being kind, responsible, informed, hardworking and generous have nothing to do with Trump or his henchmen (henchpeople?).

Being patriotic and forgiving do. Patriotism requires resistance to Trump, for the good of the country, not shrugging it all off with the blasé attitude of sophisticated insiders.

Forgiveness is fine, once the wrongdoer admits the wrongdoing, atones, and asks for forgiveness. I don't see Trumpists doing that. So fight back.

Trump’s opponents must be thoughtful, idealistic, wise, morally sensitive, and conciliatory

Again, most of this has nothing to do with Trump's enablers. But what is the reason that we must be conciliatory? Towards who? No, Mr. Frum, there is no such requirement, quite the opposite, in fact.

[hairshirthedonist]

We live in a world where this is a real headline.

Watch Live: President Trump takes part in National Day of Prayer event amid porn star payment revelation

Part of me is used to it, or at least exhausted by it. Another part still thinks "?!?*##!!**$#@!!??%??!!!???"

[Girl from the North Country]

Glad I heard that, ral, thanks.

[Countme-a-Demon]

After emerging unscathed from the nuclear holocaust of America, President for radioactive isotope Half-Life Donald mp will offer curative and restorative transfusions of his very own branded and precious bodily fluids to the lesser men and women among those unlucky enough to survive his exceptional American excellence:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/breaking-from-trumps-doctors-most-remarkable-physical-specimen-of-all-time?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning

I'm cheered to have apostate RHINO Republican David Frum agree with me on a few items, and in return I plan to be neo-conciliatory in a neo-morally, neo-sensitive, neo-sort of neo-way.

But regarding mp and company, once Mussolini's and his enablers' carcasses were cut down and the mess shoveled away and hosed down, we once again had Rome in the spring time with a nice Chianti.

The winters will be unseasonably mild.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzt82V-xtfA

[wj]

LJ omitted the last paragraph-plus-one-sentence. The last sentence:

Flint still doesn’t have clean water.

I rather thought that that last line was the biggest zinger of the whole show.

[Countme-a-Demon]

"Flint still doesn’t have clean water."

Puerto Rico still doesn't have clean water and electrical power.

Every thread is the "What is Racism" thread.

Meanwhile, on screen six:

http://buffalonews.com/2018/05/02/caputo-questioned-by-special-counsel/

"They have every bit of information you could possibly have on the Trump campaign," said Caputo, who worked for the Trump effort in late 2015 and early 2016, in a telephone interview with The Buffalo News. "They had a lot of questions I had no answers to. At times it was kind of frightening."

And, yeah, I picked up the link to that article at Daily Kos. I'd prefer to have found it at FOX, Brietbart, the Wall Street Journal, National Review Online or the National Enquirer, which are much more objective news sources, but they didn't have it.

Maybe Redstate will make mention of it. Let's check.

https://www.thewrap.com/conservative-site-boots-anti-trump-voices-in-mass-firing-says-former-editor/

I'll be conciliatory to conservative, martyred sociopath Erick Erickson, but I'll be holding his wife's shotgun pointed at him while I consider the quality of my mercy.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Paul Campos at LGM in the comments section:

"Did you see the Rolling Stone story about Michael Cohen's pre-Trump law career? It consisted of running insurance scams in which people staged fake car accidents and then sued. Apparently the NYC-area Russian mob is big into this kind of thing, which is just another crazy coincidence of course."

[Countme-a-Demon]

Conservative "Money Honey" and cracked broadcast journalist Maria (If You Like Social Security So Much, Why Aren't You On It?, she once asked a mid-50ish guest on CNBC) Bartiromo "sorta knew".

https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/05/03/maria-bartiromo-revelation-trump-reimbursed-michael-cohen-cnn-was-reporting-such-bombshell-i-dont/220104

I love it when a jackass posing as a journalist sorta knows something.

"This just in. We sorta know 12 people perished on I-25 in a fiery 42-car pileup this afternoon. For more on this story, drive out there yourselves, conduct a few interviews on your own, sorta take some notes. Maybe you can use our FOXNews helicopter to sort of hover over the scene and get some footage, cause we here at NEWS1 just are not on it.

I remember back in the day when the traders on the floor of the NYSE would stand back with their tongues lolling as the Money Honey spewed cub reporter word salad at the CNBC cameras.

I sorta knew some things too, but I just couldn't put Donald mp's finger on it.

[Nigel]

The whole press dinner thing seems way too comfortable to me.
Colbert was a breath of fresh air and very funny. Wolf took it a bit further, which given >Trump<, seems eminently justifiable.

I can understand the Republicans getting a fit of the vapours, wilfully misunderstanding a couple of the gags and choking on their own hypocrisy ... but the media reaction has been mainly pathetic. Maybe time to give up on the whole thing ?

The only problem I had with it was that some of the jokes could have been a bit sharper/funnier.
Tough crowd, though.

[wj]

I admit to finding Colbert hysterically funny. But I still think that the funniest item from his whole career remains the Bush White House inviting him for some event because they thought his send-up of a conservative commenter was serious. That is, they somehow missed that he wasn't one of them.

[Countme-a-Demon]

We are working together as a team of backstabbers to make our country .. well, A country .. great at backstabbing again:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/1857/11/epa-leaks/559607/?preview=ntqrDVAI0e6eHCcLKWkYujgOXcA

[Ugh]

all the moaning about Wolf is fake. it's theater. it's flopping on the pitch, grabbing your leg - oops, no not that leg! the other leg! - and crying trying to draw a penalty against the other team.

cleek's right. It's bad faith all the way down. Purely party over country, no principles. Trump has done everything they accused Obama/Hillary/Loretta Lynch, etc. of 100 times over and 100 times worse and...crickets.

Fnck them, they're not going to save the country even if they are the only ones who can. Watch what happens when Trump fires Mueller or has Acting Attorney General Giuliani do it.

[Marty]

Her monologue fits right into todays late night comedy and, for all the reasons in this thread, it's not comedy anymore. I cant say it better than Rob Schneider

"People aren't really laughing at it as much as cheering on the rhetoric. It no longer resembles a comedy show, it's more like some kind of liberal Klan meeting.”

While he said that about late night comedy, Wolf fits that perfectly. So sure, she attacked Trump, Sanders and others in what was not in any way comedy.

[hairshirthedonist]

"People aren't really laughing at it as much as cheering on the rhetoric. It no longer resembles a comedy show, it's more like some kind of liberal Klan meeting.”

Yes, because criticizing people because you disagree with what they do is just like terrorizing people because of their race. Especially in this case, because Trump is so beyond reproach. (And what about the media criticism? I thought conservatives hated the media.)

If you can't say it any better than Rob Schneider, you should probably not say anything at all.

[Ugh]

The media really needs to figure out how to handle allegations/expressions of outrage made in bad faith by political leaders. GOP has played them for so long.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Greg Gutfeld tried being the Klan's house comic but he could never get the eye holes straight.

[bobbyp]

Outsourcing again...A Plea For Civil Discourse

Check out the link. Funny is as funny does.

[Countme-a-Demon]

mp is President (I was going to say he won, but I try to stay fairly accurate, even in jest).

Elections have consequences, especially ones in which all three branches of government are placed into the hands of one (the wrong) political party.

One of those consequences is that comedians, like those on SNL, which I never watch, have to brush up on new material and new characters when addressing the topical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdNYXMQoy8

I'm going to agree, though, with others that comedy (and satire) in America, might be dead. Nothing seems funny to me any longer, though I make attempts of my own.

It reminds me of the years leading up to the Civil War when a southern conservative slave owner and part-time comedian bludgeoned a northern abolitionist and liberal republican in name only on the floor of the Senate nearly to death with a cream pie and a seltzer bottle.

The jokes just weren't funny any longer.

Then you had them liberal Hollywood types like John Wilkes Booth, whose punchlines were delivered from the back of the room.

[Countme-a-Demon]

I don't believe Rich Little, no liberal, he, ever did an impression of LBJ after 1968, nor George McGovern after 1972.

Out of the news.

Maybe a few Jimmy Carter deliveries after 1980, but who could resist.

True story, according to Little, Richard Nixon could never figure who Little was doing, even when Little was doing HIM live in the same room.

It was a little like the fake conservative Colbert phenomenon.

It conservatives want more send-ups of liberal politician tomfoolery, then vote for them.

Until then, the joke is on you.

[bobbyp]

Why does it take a comic to point out to the Washington press corps just what their job is supposed to be?

[sapient]

Well, Rudy made me laugh today.

Obviously, we should all be crying that this sh$tshow is allowed to continue . But mocking them makes me feel better anyway.

[sapient]

Oops - Fixing link.

Not sure how that other thing happened. Sorry!

[russell]

it's more like some kind of liberal Klan meeting.

A Klan meeting is when they burn a cross on your lawn, or beat the shit out of you, or shoot you, or mutilate you, or hang you.

Somebody calling you out for your own bullshit is not a Klan meeting.

Trump's a crook. His people are crooks thugs and creeps. They're all a pack of fucking liars.

It is what it is. Don't blame me, I didn't vote for the man.

[Countme-a-Demon]

This is old news, and even if was breaking, it would be one small turd in the daily shitstorm:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/30/mcmaster-and-commander

It's long, but worth it if you want to learn what happens to anyone who works for this lout monstrosity, is married to him, is born to him, or has the honor of being his enemy, which is where everyone ends up, except his loving stinking dupes among the American people.

This jumped out at me:

"Most N.S.C. employees spend their careers out of the public eye. But a series of online posts by Bannon allies targeted staff members who were perceived as traitorous, exposing personal details about them. A woman named Megan Badasch, who had worked for Trump during the transition and had become the N.S.C.’s deputy executive secretary, was subjected to so much online abuse that she became fearful for her own safety and moved out of her apartment. Badasch regarded herself as a Trump loyalist, and felt that she had been slandered. One of McMaster’s daughters tried to reassure her, saying, “If you’re being attacked because you’re on Dad’s side, you’re on the right side of history.” (She stayed in her post.) Another N.S.C. staffer, Eric Ciaramella, was described on right-wing blogs as a leaker out to “sabotage Trump.” After receiving death threats, he quit the N.S.C. and returned to his home agency.

According to numerous Administration officials, at least some of the leaks about the N.S.C. were coming from the Flynnstones: they were passing information about colleagues to Bannonite allies on the outside. “It’s like cyberbullying at the highest level,” a senior official told me. “You’re scared. Because these are bad people.” As the atmosphere grew increasingly poisonous, McMaster began to fire the Flynnstones, including his old friend Derek Harvey. Harvey was rumored to have aligned himself with Bannon, though he insisted to friends that this wasn’t the case. He had become consumed with questioning the loyalty of the career staff of the N.S.C.’s Middle East directorate. One day, a member of the directorate approached McMaster after a meeting. “I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but Derek is trying to fire practically the entire staff,” he said.'

The right wing threatening murder and violence against mp loyalists and republican conservatives in our government.

Nothing is done. The U.S. Government refuses to protect its own employees against threats.

I'm here to tell you there will be savagely violent retribution against conservative vermin.

[sapient]

Count, they're working their hardest to ruin the judiciary, but there's still some hope there. This is why I'm laughing about Giuliani. Obviously, the verdict isn't in yet.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Ryan, that righteous, anti-religious, anti-free-speech guttersnipe:

https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/05/too-many-catholic-chaplains.html

Let the Chaplain speak his mind on immoral republican policies. From the House floor and to the rafters of the Capitol.

After all, big-haired conservative cheats, grifters and finger fuckers in fake God-bothering pulpits can now send the offering plate around to buy votes and filthy conservative politicians without hindrance from long-established rule of law:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-signs-order-aimed-at-allowing-churches-to-engage-in-more-political-activity/2017/05/04/024ed7c2-30d3-11e7-9534-00e4656c22aa_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0cdcbb137413

[JakeB]

All I can say is that I have developed a massive crush on Michelle Wolf after that performance.

[liberal japonicus]

This comment is, at its heart, a present for the Count which, as one might expect, is NSFW.

At LGM, they quoted Mike Allen, who observed that Michelle Wolf

...made several uses of a vulgarity that begins with "p," in an audience filled with Washington officials, top journalists and a few baseball legends (Brooks Robinson, Tony La Russa and Dennis Eckersley).

and posted the following YouTube video of Earl Weaver. One of the commentators thoughtfully posted this story about Dennis Eckersley.

And I was reminded of this video of the infamous recording of Earl Weaver's Manager's corner. Enjoy!

[russell]

marty's right in saying this is no longer just, or even mostly, a comedy thing. this is a people are f'ing pissed off thing.

folks who need the smelling salts after wolf's routine should wise up.

folks will put up with a lot, and have done so. but there is a limit.

folks wanted president trump, so now we have president trump, with all that entails. he is not being treated with respect because he is not respectable. elect somebody better next time.

in the meantime, no whining about wolf's comments being 'beyond the pale'. go listen to decades of rush, or coulter, or ingraham, or whoever you like, and tell me what 'beyond the pale' means to you.

be happy it's just jokes at this point.

[byomtov]

Amen, Russell.

[hairshirthedonist]

"F**k your feelings!" "Snowflakes!"

Yeah...

[cleek]

I cant say it better than Rob Schneider

then i pity the both of you. you, mostly.

[cleek]

it's more like some kind of liberal Klan meeting.

shove it.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/01/28/upshot/donald-trump-twitter-insults.html

[Countme-a-Demon]

Thanks, lj.

Weaver needed a trigger warning when he asked someone at table to pass the salt.

I play hardball and softball. The English language is hard, of the Earl Weaver/Billy Martin variety, in both.

I once watched a softball team years ago, a good one, who we were about to play in a high-stakes tournament, gather together on the infield, all on one knee, hats off, each player with one hand placed like a visor over their eyes, reflecting on God's bounty and HIS allotment of three-run dingers as their coach led them in prayerful petition for my team's total destruction and defeat.

They rose as one to play ball, and ... we heard this from our dugout as looked on ... their Coach said loud enough for everyone to hear, "Now, let's kick these c*cks*ckers' a*ses."

They did, and good for them, but we gave them an Old Testament game, with floods, child sacrifice, plagues, and threw in at least three of the four Horseman of the New Testament Apocalypse for good measure.

Next day, my team gained eternal redemption as we beat THEM the second time around.

They changed their team name to the Philistines, from God's Gift to the National Pastime, which was wordy and didn't fit on their shirts anyhoo.

I love that Eckersley story. mp couldn't hold Eckersley's jock. F*ck 'em, indeed.

When I watched clips of Wolf's deal, I thought of the old Dean Martin's roasts, only maybe half of which we got to see publicly, because these guys, and by guys I mean Lucille Ball, Phyllis Diller, and Moms Mabley, were foul-mouthed dirty guys.

If you don't believe me, read a Dean Martin biography.

They were ALL, nearly to a man, conservative Republicans.

There were more abortions that could be traced back to that conservative crew of swordsman than Planned Parenthood could ever dream of.

Midwestern girls from good Christian families flew over their hometowns just for a seat on the casting couch.

And there wasn't a dry seat in the house as the old show-biz adage goes.

I'm not endorsing any of that, but bring towels just in case.

This was back when Hollywood really corrupted the culture.

And if you didn't like it, Sinatra had people to offer a therapeutic nudge to make you like it. Lee Marvin could freeze Joe Pesci's testicles with one glare at 20 paces.

They weren't pathetic snowflakes, like the current variety of conservatives.

[Marty]

Rush doesn't pretend to be doing comedy, he is an asshat for a living, So are the others.

Late night comedy is just a long nonstop liberal screed, and if you don't play (see Fallon), you get Twitter lynched. No problem for me, I know where the channel changer is on my tv.

But someday I would like to be able to watch the Oscars, or any other awards show, again. It would be great if the Correspondents dinner wasn't just for liberals. But none of that is comedy and, at this point, those shows are just part of the liberal echo chamber.

[hairshirthedonist]

But someday I would like to be able to watch the Oscars, or any other awards show, again. It would be great if the Correspondents dinner wasn't just for liberals.

You'll have to settle for three branches of government for now, and the loony conspiracy-theory news outlets for when you want to have a little more fun.

[hairshirthedonist]

Rush doesn't pretend to be doing comedy, he is an asshat for a living, So are the others.

They pretend to be journalists. The liberal comedians are actually better journalists than Rush and the others, without really trying. And they're way funnier.

[Marty]

Rush doesn't even pretend to be a journalist, he's always been a shock jock.

And no, the liberal comedians aren't journalists. That you, abd the Daily Showw generation, count them as such is a problem.

[Countme-a-Demon]

"Rush doesn't pretend to be doing comedy, he is an asshat for a living, So are the others."

Yes, but back when Limbaugh's radio show was videotaped, the studio audience pretended to roll around in the aisles, mirthlessly.

Yeah, he's pretending to do comedy:

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Rush_Limbaugh

It was a little like this audience, until the fire department was called in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx-rrBv2lyc&t=197s

I need some new clips.

[russell]

Rush doesn't pretend to be doing comedy

Rush describes himself as an entertainer. He's also an honorary member of Congress.

Dig that.

Late night comedy is just a long nonstop liberal screed

Watch something else.

But someday I would like to be able to watch the Oscars, or any other awards show, again.

Someday I'd like to be able to watch the State of the Union again.

It would be great if the Correspondents dinner wasn't just for liberals.

It is what it is.

Hey, W delivered his "where are those WMD?" at a correspondents dinner. Equal time, seems to me.

But none of that is comedy and, at this point, those shows are just part of the liberal echo chamber.

So, don't watch. I don't.

Sorry to be unsympathetic, but I don't have it in me to be concerned for the tender feelings of people who are put off by a comedian taking it to Trump et al. Or whoever, et al, for that matter.

If you run on hate and anger, don't be surprised if some of that comes back to you.

[russell]

Rush doesn't pretend to be doing comedy

Rush describes himself as an entertainer. He's also an honorary member of Congress.

Dig that.

Late night comedy is just a long nonstop liberal screed

Watch something else.

But someday I would like to be able to watch the Oscars, or any other awards show, again.

Someday I'd like to be able to watch the State of the Union again.

It would be great if the Correspondents dinner wasn't just for liberals.

It is what it is.

Hey, W delivered his "where are those WMD?" at a correspondents dinner. Equal time, seems to me.

But none of that is comedy and, at this point, those shows are just part of the liberal echo chamber.

So, don't watch. I don't.

Sorry to be unsympathetic, but I don't have it in me to be concerned for the tender feelings of people who are put off by a comedian taking it to Trump et al. Or whoever, et al, for that matter.

If you run on hate and anger, don't be surprised if some of that comes back to you.

[hairshirthedonist]

And no, the liberal comedians aren't journalists. That you, abd the Daily Showw generation, count them as such is a problem.

I don't "count them" as journalists. They simply do a better job of it than Rush and his ilk, purely by accident while doing political comedy.

Rush can say whatever he wants about being a shock jock. It's just cover. His audience, at least some of them (too many) believe his BS, and he knows it, and he counts on it. Same for the rest. They're propagandists.

Ridicule is perfectly valid when ridiculing the ridiculous. Trump and the modern GOP are ridiculous.

[hairshirthedonist]

If you run on hate and anger, don't be surprised if some of that comes back to you.

Yes. And imagine how the conservative snowflakes would feel if Michelle Wolf were president rather than a not very well-known comedian (at least not very well known before the WHCD - but still just a comedian afterward).

[Countme-a-Demon]

mp says he would love to be interviewed by Mueller, but must be "treated fairly".

You got time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGYvHHc4igk

A flaming arrow from a Ute tribe Pocahontas shot through his pig throat would approach fairness.

I'd like to see him try his schtick for a couple of open mic moments at my local watering hole.

His face would be introduced to the sidewalk outside real quick, and we'd have to pull the female bartender slamming his head against the concrete off him just to let the rest of us get a shot in.

I will give you that if he in fact shot a guy dead on Fifth Avenue, his poll numbers would jump upward from 41% by a good amount and the stock market would soar.

America loves a comedian.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Start that clip at 0:00. You don't want to miss the verbal pussy-grabbing of the female interviewer.

[hairshirthedonist]

open thread

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/health/ovarian-tumor-132-pounds-connecticut/index.html

[hairshirthedonist]

From the link:

One of the largest tumors ever taken out of a human was a 303-pound ovarian tumor removed at Stanford Hospital in 1991, according to a 1994 report.

[wj]

Open thread
A truly amazing headline in my local paper today:

Convicted human trafficker says he's the victim of electronic harassment

Doesn't your heart just bleed?

[cleek]

Trump appoints Dr Oz to the Council on Sports, Fitness, and Nutrition.

if only the liberals would stop forcing Trump to pick his celebrity and charlatan buddies.

bad liberals. bad.

[Countme-a-Demon]

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/buchanan/memo-to-trump-defy-robert-mueller/

Lock and load, Buchanan, because you will have too.

[russell]

Special Counsel Robert Mueller and his malevolent minions.

Buke's still doing the alliteration thing.

Doesn't bode well, Agnew ended up resigning.

[russell]

More from Buchanan:

This is the terrain on which Trump can win: an us-vs-them fight, before Congress and country, where not only the alleged crimes of Trump are aired but also the actual crimes committed to destroy him and to overturn his victory.

Trump is a nationalist who puts America first both in trade and securing her frontiers against an historic invasion from the South. If he is overthrown, and the agenda for which America voted is trashed as well, it may be Middle America in the streets this time.

The culture warrior, to the bitter end.

This is what Buchanan has been dreaming of for forty freaking years. Violence in the street.

Be careful what you wish for, Pat.

More freaking people - 10 million more - voted against Trump than voted for him. Every one of the folks who voted against Trump is an American. More than a few of us are sick of being threatened by the likes of Patrick Buchanan.

If he wants a fight, he'll get a fight. He'll lose.

[sapient]

If he wants a fight, he'll get a fight. He'll lose.

I'm with you, at least with hope.

[wj]

What I think the Buchanans of the world miss is this.

Yes, their fans have more guns. At least currently. A lot more. BUT (as far as I can see) those guys are not, over all, marvels of enormous competency. Which is to say, if they start a fight, they will likely win the initial battles -- having more firepower can do that. But once the rest of us get rolling, that will change.

The obvious analogy would be WW II. In 1941, notwithstanding the whole Arsenal of Democracy thing, the US was a great economic power but not a great military one. However once our nose got rubbed in the fact that we couldn't just stand back and ignore the fight? Neither Japan (even with Chinese factories) nor Germany had a prayer of fielding a military machine that could stand up to us. (And that's aside from the US having a bigger population to draw on than either or both of them.)

Same with the NRA and other gun nuts. (Not to say that all the fans of Buchanan et al. are gun nuts, of course.) Do I think the rest of the country will get guns? Yeah. Do I think that's how we will win? Probably not. If you've got a huge advantage in educated (especially science and technology educated) people, you can innovate a lot of new and nasty weapons that put guns in the shade.

[russell]

I don't think Buchanan is a big gun guy. He likes punch-ups.

[Tony P.]

If it comes to actual shooting between the Trump-Buchanan-LaPierre Brigade and the rest of us, which side can we expect Marty to be on? How about McKinney? I doubt we can count on Brett Bellmore, but I suppose anything is possible.

--TP

[wonkie]

https://www.facebook.com/AmericaFirstNetwork/videos/1898041796935789/

[wonkie]

I really hope you all will click that link. It isn't a parody. Seriously, it isn't. I can't bring myself to watch more than a minute or two but that had me in stitches.

[Marty]

This is the most ridiculous childish discussion I have ever read. If there's shooting in the streets I will be on my side. Protecting my family from any moron stupid enough to threaten them.

Its not like there will be al Trump brigade and a Clinton brigade. Anarchy and chaos are what y'all are talking about.

I pay less attention to Buchanan than Colbert, but they are both proselytizing for the same war.

You've picked your side, just don't fing cross me.

No one wins that war.

[wj]

Marty is absolutely right -- nobody wins that war.

But isn't it interesting that the one group that might start it is the one which would lose it?

P.S. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention. But I haven't seen any sign of Colbert proselytizing for a war. Any war. Perhaps there's a YouTube of him doing so...?

[Tony P.]

Marty, in what appears to be a medium dudgeon:

You've picked your side, just don't fing cross me.

No one wins that war.

It's hard to parse Marty's grammar at times, but I suspect that the war "no one wins" is any war on Marty or his family. Be very afraid, libruls who might be thinking of forcing health insurance on Marty's kin by force.

In any case, Marty has answered my question. He's neither on the side of fascist nationalists nor of their possible targets. Useful intelligence.

--TP

[russell]

This is the most ridiculous childish discussion I have ever read.

the topic is buchanan, it comes with the territory.

there are lots of folks who nurture a desire for political dialog to devolve into violence. i don't think they're watching colbert. i don't think any of them are commenting here.

not even the count.

buchanan's a bully, always has been. a bully with his fists when he was young, a bully with his pen now. bullies piss me off. that's pretty much it.

i don't have to get into fights with buchanan, he'll "lose the war" because nobody will show up. because he's a bully and an ass and he's not worth anyone's time. he'll "lose the war" because nobody wants to live in the world he desires except people like him, and they are not of sufficient quantity to prevail and not of sufficient quality to persuade anyone else of the virtue of their point of view.

he'll lose the war because he's a loser.

[Marty]

"i don't think any of them are commenting here."

You do actually read the comments here, right? It's become a staple conversation.

[Donald]

If you are going to read the American Conservative, there are infinitely better articles than Buchanan in one of his street fighting moods.

This, for instance—

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/afghan-futility-and-the-not-so-curious-case-of-lieutenant-jordan-rich/

[Donald]

Currently at least repression by prosecutors is a more pressing issue than Pat Buchanan’s street war fantasies.

https://shadowproof.com/2018/05/04/members-newsletter-preview-tidy-way-smother-movements/

[russell]

It's become a staple conversation

if you keep telling people you're going to shoot them for a decade or two, some of them are going to wonder if there's something to it.

plus, every now and then, somebody actually does get shot or otherwise killed.

there are probably a couple of hundred private armies in the US. answerable to god knows who. it's a thing.

so, folks are likely to talk about it.

Buchanan's full of crap. other folks seem more serious. maybe it's just dress up. maybe it's not.

If you are going to read the American Conservative

no thanks.

[Countme-a-Demon]

"It's become a staple conversation."

I learnt it from the Parking Meter In Chief, among others:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donald+trump+egging+his+fans+on+to+violence+at+campaign+rallies

The only difference between asshat mp and asshat me for Marty is that the ass under mp's hat is spreading conservative principles throughout the land, so mp gets a silent pass when he threatens to kick physical ass.

Pass me the stapler.

Donald Johnson is, as usual, correct. There are bigger fish to fry.

Where I differ with Donald is that every time we get closer to an actual fish fry, the conservative movement has in place a ready-made Nation-wide militia of threatening louts, in and out of the NRA, who point out that they just might have to shoot all of us with the bullets left over after Hillary Clinton takes one for the team.

I read nearly every op piece daily at The American Conservative.

I've had plenty of comments, f-word free, expunged from comment sections following Dreher's posts (he likes Walker Percy, too, so there is that) when HE condemns violence, more than one time when I've referred him to Buchanan's lock and load past (yeah, pugilism is buch's thing; he and his elite snowflake snowfake confederate Scots-Irish brothers used to kick ass at parties and on the sidewalks of flyover Washington D.C. when he was a young man. For some reason, the victims seemed to be Jewish more often than not, way before Nixon tapped him, or was it the other way round, to look into Jewish influence in the press and gummint. His sister, Bay, was known for her powerful roundhouse sucker punches and .. I haven't confirmed this rumor ... her biting).

The other week, a republican legislator in Colorado proposed legislation to allow the State, that entity conservatives spit on except when it is arresting their enemies, to arrest and jail for six months school teachers for exercising their First Amendment rights in demonstrations and strikes.

I thought to myself, well OK, finally, a legitimate reason for teachers to be armed.

The State arms the murderers of them and their students, in schools, and I'm sure the same ilk will be cheering the "authorities" on when the teachers are hauled off to jail for daring to call for tax increases and increased school funding when the latter are off school grounds.

If the Bundy's got away with it, why not first-grade teachers?

Conservatives CAN win me over on occasion.

[cleek]

If the Bundy's got away with it, why not first-grade teachers?

long as those teachers aren't black women...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/us/marissa-alexander-released-stand-your-ground.html

[russell]

If people really want gun regulation, all they have to do is arm black and brown people in large numbers.

Or even not-so-large numbers.

I'm not recommending it, because folks will end up dead, and most of them will probably be black and brown people.

I'm just making an observation based on the historical record.

As far as the "staple conversation", we have Oath Keepers showing up at Ferguson to "help protect people's property", we have members of the PA and NY Light Foot Militia showing up at Charlottesville on a free-lance basis to "help protect 1st A rights". We have god knows what collection of free-lance vigilantes showing up to protect Cliven Bundy's god-given rights to let his cows graze on public land for free, and then again to protect his kid's god-given rights to sh*t all over the visitor parking lot in Malheur.

Off the top of my head.

So yeah, it's chaotic. WTF do you do if you're a cop in a situation like Ferguson or Charlottesville, and a bunch of guys in camo with semi-automatic weapons show up and declare "we got this"?

And those are just the organized and semi-organized outfits, and the outfits that don't have an explicitly racist or criminal agenda. There are folks out there that do have those agendas.

I'm unlikely to be in any danger here in my nice little suburban ranch house. Other folks aren't so lucky. I might not be so lucky if I turn out to participate in things like the Women's March, or the Boston Free Speech thing. Those were uneventful, it doesn't always play out that way.

There are, at this point, tens of thousands of folks running around as members of one free-lance militia or another. There are another tens of thousands of folks who have serious arsenals sitting out in the garage. All of them have been imbibing the conservative mantra of "government is your enemy" for the last 40 years.

Are there any other countries that claim to have functioning governments that allow private armies to ammo up and train on the weekend? Unanswerable to any civil authority? Any other places that countenance threats of insurrection -- "2nd Amendment solutions -- as a reasonable political position, one that can be espoused by candidates for national public office?

So yes, a topic of conversation.

[russell]

ok, so, to be fair, I read the TAC piece Donald linked to. I also read the Shadowproof piece.

There was nothing in either piece that was anything like news to me.

I give TAC credit for in general being a conservative counter to the more common neo-con impulse to blow everything the fuck up and call it a better world. The fact that that is an achievement of note, at all, is in itself a pitiable disgrace.

And hell yeah, the government is going to do whatever they can within the law, and without the law to the degree that they can get away with it, to limit and suppress dissent. The only solution to that that I'm aware of is to not put up with it. Show up and be loud. If being loud ain't your thing, just show up, it'll do.

[CharlesWT]

Unfortunately, who reports an armed confrontation incident to the police first can make a big difference as to who is considered the victim and who goes to jail.

"Siwatu-Salama Ra is a 26-year-old black mother who watched in horror as an angry assailant—a neighbor with whom Ra had a dispute—deliberately crashed her vehicle into Ra's car while Ra's two-year-old daughter was playing inside. Ra removed her unloaded, legally purchased handgun from the glove box and brandished it, scaring the neighbor off."
Black Gun Owner Will Give Birth in Prison After Trying to Protect 2-Year-Old Daughter from Assailant: Siwatu-Salama Ra used a legally purchased firearm to protect her family. She was sentenced to 2 years in prison.

[Countme-a-Demon]

MAGA, the violent republican way:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-economy-crashing-quote/

[dr ngo]

Wonkie: Thanks for that amazing video. I did watch it all the way through. Expected to hate the politics, and I did. Expected that they couldn't write lyrics that would rhyme OR scan, and I was correct.

What I didn't expect, and almost prevented me from finishing, was that they could not SING IN TUNE! Nigh on to drove me crazy.

[sapient]

It appears that Trump found an interesting way to scuttle the Iran deal.

[wonkie]

Dr Ngo, what I found fascinating was the vision of TRump as the Dear Leader who wi going to save the good people from evil. I come to the conclusion that R voters believe in fairy tales--they are the scared little princesses who are shaking in their shoes, while waiting for the heor to sweep in an d rescue them from the dragon or the Big Bad Wolf or whatever. Repubican poliicians use fear as their primary appeal--and Icna think of a word that describes chronically fearfu people and starts with "c". Yes, conservative, but there's another one.

[Countme-a-Demon]

re sapient's link:

John McCain said the other day he doesn't want mp attending his funeral.

If McCain's subsidized socialist medical care is up to snuff, and let's hope it is, maybe McCain can attend mp's final send off by firing squad and then attend his buddy Pence's funeral too, after the American people garrote the latter as well.

I can't imagine how anti-Semite Pat Buchanan, hater of the Jewish State of Israel, is going to square this news of mp's yet further collusion with foreign governments' black ops to destroy America, its government, and those who serve it, with his protective authoritarian sentiments regarding his fellow loutish right-wing republican spawn, Donald J mp, but maybe they can talk it over with Netanyahu just before the three of them ... Putin will be slaughtered too in a separate operation ... are shot through their black pig conservative hearts by the tens of millions of true American and Israeli patriots who will volunteer to serve on THEIR firing squads.

In related news, mp's consigliere's client and soiree guests manifests read like the list of characters provided on the first several frontice pages of a Dostoyevsky novel so the reader can keep track:

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/05/us-better-citibank

It's Goodfellas all the way down, sans the marinara:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOaV06ruMqg

You like Ray Liotta?

Republicans, you wrecked our home(land), all of you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chC8SFRzQbg

[Countme-a-Demon]

Cohen's alma mater:

http://fortune.com/2018/05/05/michael-cohen-cooley-worst-law-school-in-america/

Only the best.

More:

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2012/05/using-the-legal-process-to-silence-critics

Yes, I wanted all of this to happen.

I've been planning this attack on America since I was a wee lad.

I martialed the worst, beguiling, corrupt, dumbest vermin I could find and infiltrated the republican party with them.

You ilk bought a cake from a Christian white evangelical and Stormy Daniels jumped out of it and played hide the winky with your noses and you loved it.

I arranged all of that.

So have a little respect, and comment here in Russian, our mother tongue, from now on.

[ral]

конечно, да

Cut and paste makes this easy.

[wj]

милый!

Let's here it for technology

[Tony P.]

Let's hear it for spelling too :)

--TP

[byomtov]

That looks like it might be our Treasury Secretary's last name, but if so the ancestor who got named that didn't pass the genes on to Steven.

[Donald]

On the American Conservative, I would recommend it as a source of both great articles and terrible ones and maybe the widest range of commenters I see anywhere, for better or worse. You have some commenters who clearly long for death squads, for instance. White nationalism too. But also people who are normal conservatives, moderates, centrist liberal, far left, Marxist, and sometimes just confusing. Also some people who I think voted for Trump genuinely thinking he was serious about condemning our interventions and who now realize they were suckered and are mad. All types. Well, more types than I have encountered elsewhere in one spot.

Different topic. Collusion of Trump, but with Israel, to gather dirt on advocates of the Iran deal. Will be interesting to see if this gets much play here.

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/05/trump-team-hired-spy-firm-dirty-ops-iran-nuclear-deal?__twitter_impression=true

[liberal japonicus]

Will be interesting to see if this gets much play here.

By 'here', where do you mean?

TPM has some interesting stuff on that

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/stunning-developments-on-trump-black-ops

[Donald]

I meant the US. Where it is easy to demonize the Russians and those who collude with them or are falsely accused of passing in Russian propaganda. That kind of demonizing has a long tradition in American politics. But demonizing people who collude with Israelis is harder, since you have politicians in both parties bowing down to them. One of Flynn’s meetings with the Russian ambassador was to persuade him to support Israel against Obama in a settlement vote. I could imagine a parallel universe where people pointed out the collusion there incessantly and how gunning down unarmed protestors is not self defense but the Trumpies say it is and people diving into Trump family connections in that direction, but it hasn’t happened much.

You even have people kowtowing to the Saudi monarchy and hardly anyone likes those guys unless they are paid to. Famine death tolls in Yemen just last year are probably in the 50,000 range. Actual collusion with crimes against humanity. People obsess over collusion regarding dirty politics when right out in the open we collude on something that we call genocide when Assad does it. I am not the only person who thinks our political squabbles show deeply fracked up priorities. Maybe people in Yemen should get a nuclear deterrent.

But anyway, a New Yorker piece—

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/israeli-operatives-that-aided-harvey-weinstein-collected-information-on-former-obama-administration-officials

I was and am curious to see the mileage this story gets. What if Trump hired a Russian firm composed of ex KGB agents to gather dirt on people who supported sanctions on Russia? Well, he apparently did, except it was Israelis and the nuclear deal with Iran. Interesting test case.

[Michael Cain]

I'm the lunatic working on a partition plan, and even I think a "shooting war" is silly. A million uniformed cops are not going to roll over, or pick sides, or be the first to go. Ditto for the military.

Just as advice, if (to pick an example) Ohio's malcontents decide they want to do something about Cleveland, the answer is not to load up the pickups and head into town for some shooting. The answer is to pick out the right half-dozen major substations and take out the relatively fragile transformers there. W/o electricity, Cleveland is uninhabitable.

I expect the NSA to come calling at my house some day, due to my unfortunate tendency to occasionally use the satellite view on Google Maps to trace the high voltage lines from big generating plants to substations around large metro areas, and then look at the roads in the vicinity...

[russell]

even I think a "shooting war" is silly

Silly, not silly, same-same to me.

It's really easy, by which I mean trivially easy, by which I mean requiring less effort than it takes to make a sandwich, to find people whose fundamental rhetorical stance in matters political is "well then we're gonna start shooting, and we have all the guns you stupid libtards!"

Most, by which I mean 99% plus, of those people aren't going to shoot anyone. The occasional nutter will, and that's still a number big enough to take seriously. But there isn't likely to be widespread warfare.

It's just really freaking annoying, by which I mean utterly unacceptable, to constantly be threatened with violence by your fucking neighbors.

How would this fly, do you think:

"If you put a Trump sign on your lawn, I'm going to burn your house down! And I have matches!!"

Or:

"If you have a Trump bumper sticker, I'm gonna run right off the road into a ditch!"

Great ice-breakers!! Right?

And, of course, now let's have a conversation. Let's "dialog" and "find common ground".

Bugger that.

I'm not talking to people who threaten to kill me, even if they are full of crap. Not only am I not talking to them, I'm not giving them a freaking inch.

The country doesn't belong to them. They're not patriots, they're flaming belligerent assholes. They're not heroes, they're fearful children.

They need to grow the f up.

And all of that said, there actually are a couple hundred private armies, answerable to no civil authority, running around on a variety of self-appointed missions. That ain't good.

[Girl from the North Country]

Where it is easy to demonize the Russians and those who collude with them or are falsely accused of passing in Russian propaganda. That kind of demonizing has a long tradition in American politics. But demonizing people who collude with Israelis is harder, since you have politicians in both parties bowing down to them.

Donald, forgive me please if this has been asked and answered before (I'm rather unwell, and can't remember), but is it your view that "the Russians", which is to say the Putin regime, are unfairly demonised? The word "demonised" suggests this. I think you know that I pretty much agree with your stance on the Israelis, and the American politicians who unquestioningly support them, so I hope you will take this question in the (absolutely non-snarky) spirit in which it is meant.

[bobbyp]

And all of that said, there actually are a couple hundred private armies, answerable to no civil authority, running around on a variety of self-appointed missions.

[john (not mccain)]

"which side can we expect Marty to be on? How about McKinney?"

There's no doubt. They'll be on the side patriots are aiming at.

[hairshirthedonist]

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/armed-militia-groups-surging-across-nation

The scariest thing for me is that cops, former and current, are joining these groups, along with military veterans who are used to the idea of shooting Muslims.

[Donald]

GftNC

I think the Russians are guilty of war crimes in Syria comparable to our own. I think their role in the Ukraine is probably immoral, but I think we probably get a whitewashed view of our side there. I think the Russians intervened in the election, but on the scale of interventionist crimes that was a misdemeanor. And I think liberals in many cases are acting like hysterics in the Cold War. If people were really interested in collusion and political corruption and its consequences Russiagate would be way down on the list.

[hairshirthedonist]

And just after posting my last comment, I see this.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/2018/05/us_abortion_clinics_face_surge_of_trespassing_and_blockades

Guess who's getting in on the action.

The one attempted bombing in 2017 involved a pipe bomb that did not explode after being placed in an abortion clinic in Champaign, Illinois, in November. The three men charged by federal authorities are allegedly part of a militia group called the "White Rabbits" who also have been charged in the bombing of a Minnesota mosque last year.

[Donald]

Open thread, so I am posting a link to a post that is the strongest and most thorough illustration I have ever seen of just how horrible our “ liberal “ media is in its coverage of foreign policy. LJ once invited me to put up a post on why I thought of much press coverage as fake news. I didn’t do it. It would have required a lot of work digging up links and in the end, what I might have written would have been a tenth as good as this—

http://mondoweiss.net/2018/05/remarkable-disappearing-terrorism/

[CharlesWT]

W/o electricity, Cleveland is uninhabitable.

So, only marginally worse than the present...

[Girl from the North Country]

Thank you Donald. And for completeness's sake, what do you think of their domestic politics, e.g. treatment of internal critics and dissidents etc?