Open thread - hidden worlds

by JanieM

russell’s post on drumming has reminded me that there are worlds and worlds that I know nothing about, and sometimes it’s fun to peek into them.

For instance – long ago a carpenter friend who worked in stained glass as a sideline took me to pick out some glass for a window he was helping me make. We went to a rundown neighborhood in Boston, then into a shabby-looking two-story house. Inside the building, the first floor looked like my grandma’s attic: stuff piled everywhere, everything dusty. I was starting to get a little dubious, but I trusted my friend, so I followed him when he headed up a flight of stairs.

At the top, it was like when The Wizard of Oz turns from black-and-white to color.

The second floor of the house had unbroken banks of double-hung windows on three sides, and on every sill – two rows per window – were little rectangles of stained glass. It happened to be a sunny day, and the whole place glinted with color.

It was like wonderland, a beautiful gem hidden in the most misleading of surroundings.

I had a similar experience – at least as to the unknown-ness – when another friend took me to a sailmaker’s shop on Cape Cod.

Conversely, I had a conversation a few years ago with a friend of one of my offspring. This young woman was smart and dazzlingly well-educated, and had been a varsity college basketball player. She had never heard of Pete Seeger, Arlo Guthrie…..or Bill Russell.

What worlds have you stumbled upon that you knew nothing about? Or conversely, what worlds do you know something about, that might surprise the rest of us as the stained glass shop did me?

Open thread.

*****

And – just saw this – RIP Texas school shooting victims. How long, oh Lord.....

Comments

[russell]

my wife and I have a friend who is a greek orthodox icon painter of some repute. he's not greek orthodox.

everybody has a secret or not-so-secret thing. that's where life gets interesting.

[Girl from the North Country]

I had to go to a difficult meeting yesterday, and made sure I got there quite early. It was in a very quiet, beautiful, serene London square, with a wonderful garden in the middle (no benches, clearly not for walking in, only for looking at). Out of the corner of my eye, I saw someone opening the back of a van and getting something out - something that opened quite big, beautiful wings! I went closer, and saw that the guy was a falconer, with a beautiful hawk on his leather gauntlet. I said "how long have you been a falconer" and he said ever since he'd left the Royal Navy, a few years. He said he'd learned it all from books, then went to catch this hawk (a Harris Hawk) which had once been a falconer's but got loose and been feral for 6 months. He stroked it and talked about it with pride and affection. It was extremely beautiful.

This wasn't a world that was completely new to me; I'd read T H White's The Once and Future King, and then a non-fiction book he wrote about falconry, and various other things over the years. But this was the first time I'd seen the real thing up close. It was strange and wonderful. This was his job now, he was hired to scare pigeons away from various places. I thought he was a lucky man, to do something he loved so much as a job.

Great post, Janie. I love the description of the sudden jewelled revelation. Stained glass can indeed have an absolutely magical quality.

[Countme-a-Demon]

GFTNC: We may have mentioned this at some earlier point, but you must read, if you haven't, Helen McDonald's "H Is For Hawk", but it might as well be titled "H Is For The H In T H White".

[JanieM]

GftNC, great story about the falconer. And I hope your meeting went well in the end.

The mention of White's non-fiction book about falconry reminds me of a similar pairing: Jane Smiley's novel Horse Heaven, and A Year at the Races -- both written by someone who loves and is fascinated by Thoroughbreds, and horses in general.

[hairshirthedonist]

I've hung out with people from Bayonne.

[wj]

The world I've stumbled into?

Professional musicians. I've always loved music, despite having minimal aptitude. (Serious scars on the ear drums do unfortunate things to the ability to create music with others.) But I knew little or nothing about the lives of those in the business.

But the son of one of my Mom's closest friends is a professional musician. (Keyboard guy with Santana currently. Serious pro.) And lately we've gotten to know him and his local buddies. We're even turning into roadies. ;-)

It's a whole world that I knew of, but definitely didn't know, for my first half century.

[Nigel]

I have to confess I too had never heard of Bill Russell... though Wikipedia is great for sports, and despite caring nothing for basketball (apologies), I found his entry both interesting and moving.

In my defence, how many of you have heard of Gary Sobers ?

Or Learie Constantine ?
(Bob might if he’s read CLR James.)

[Nigel]

It’s the guns...
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/its-the-guns/560771/

[byomtov]

Once, on a flight from Atlanta to Boston, I scored a rare upgrade and was in first class with Bill Russell seated two or three rows behind me. Naturally, everyone was trying to act cool while mouthing "Bill Russell" and tilting their heads in his direction.

There was a short woman sitting across the aisle from me, and when we landed she struggled a bit getting her luggage down, and it started to fall as she lost control. Everyone noticed, and suddenly there came, "I got it," from the back and a giant black hand, like the hand of God, appeared and stopped the fall.

Nice moment.

[Girl from the North Country]

Thanks Count. I read a very long excerpt from H is for Hawk when it came out, and resolved to read it in due course, but haven't yet.

Thanks also, Janie. The meeting was not particularly cheerful, but the hawk was a lovely, luminous moment, and hopefully that is the impression that will last.

[bob mcmanus]

Bob might if he’s read CLR James

Sorry, read Toussaint and some of the state capitalism or degenerate socialism (sic?) stuff, some material about James late London years, have the sailor/Moby Dick book lined up, want a biography, probably never get to the cricket material.

Louis Proyect is my veteran communist site, great resources on right sidebar

[cleek]

wife has a friend who's a member of a legitimate big-name rock band. and when they come through town, we get free tickets and can hang out with him backstage.

this last time they were here, they played a really big outdoor amphitheater, and so they had a really big stage show and crew to make it happen - countless roadies and instrument technicians, dozens of buses and trucks. everyone in the band had a personal assistant running around, summoning bottles of booze, doing laundry, managing schedules, relaying messages. it's a huge undertaking and it's all very scheduled and coordinated, like a rocket launch or something. but it's done by people wearing worn-out jeans and faded concert shirts, instead of short-sleeve dress shirts and khakis.

[Nigel]

No prob, Bob.
Beyond a Boundary is a fine book, though (whether or not you’re interested in cricket).

[JanieM]

Nigel -- never heard of Gary Sobers, but he sounds interesting too. Will read more when I'm more awake.

I'm not surprised at someone from England (you are, right?) not having heard of Bill Russell. It was a little more surprising in someone who was quite devoted to basketball. It made me think more about how our interests can be fine-tuned -- this woman played but wasn't that much of a fan, whereas I was a fan but had never played except casually, since there were no sports for girls in my school when I was growing up.

Another basketball story -- Sports Illustrated once did a feature article on Larry Bird, when he was at the height of his NBA stardom. The reporter went back to Bird's hometown of French Lick, Indiana, and interviewed some of the local people. When asked about him, one older woman thought a moment and said something like, "Oh, yes, that's Georgia Bird's son, he used to mow my lawn, he was a very nice boy." The exact quote indicated that she barely knew, or cared about, the fact that he was one of the most famous basketball players in the history of the world.

There's some indication that people were silo-ed long before the internet. ;-)

Bernie -- nice story.........

[Nigel]

I take it back - apparently it’s too many doors, not the guns...

[sapient]

Doors don't kill people! People do!

[Snarki, child of Loki]

The Doors killed Jim Morrison.

[CharlesWT]

The Doors killed Jim Morrison.

The doors on toilet cubicles?...

[Countme-a-Demon]

Guns don't kill people, women who don't put out for men under a regime of enforced monogamy, force men to kill people.

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/05/i-am-a-very-serious-person

A well satisfied male sexual neediness, being necessary to the promiscuity of a whoopie state of priapic excitation, the right of men to keep and fondle bare women, shall not be prophylaxed.

Clearly, the key to stopping these mass killings by men entering schools is to post naked cheerleaders at each entryway at a school building with directions to act disarming.

When God closes a door, he opens a window on behalf of male peeping Toms.

This way to the egress.

My God, I HATE the fucking, stinking conservative movement. May every building they reside in have too many doors.

We could look to free market solutions used to limit poaching endangered species in Africa and elsewhere to ameliorate this crisis, while preserving God's very lucrative arms merchandising to free Americans.

Public school districts around the country (charter and private schools would be exempted from this program) could open, say, one school per week in their districts to licensed (No? Too much regulation?) gunman to stalk their prey, with a bag limit, say three children per week, for a fee to be paid at the Principal's Office upon entry, thus limiting the killing and yet satisfying native American blood lust, while allowing most of the individuals in the human species to grow into adulthood to propagate the herd and supply shooting victims in perpetuity.

Of course, child-baiting, perhaps by setting out bowls of Skittles in clearings, would be prohibited. We must maintain humane and sporting standards.

Exits could be locked from without while the hunters are on the premises to accommodate conservative fish-in-a-barrel hunting rules, but the student body would be given a five-minute heads-up to hide.

Perhaps a warning shot could be fired five minutes prior to the slaughter.

Remember, not a single child was incinerated during the 1950s nuclear Red scare because they hid under their desks. It worked.

We can discuss, sort of chew over in bipartisan fashion, whether or not the bag count should be limited to only what the hunters can themselves eat.

The mp sons could spearhead this endeavor.

No spears allowed. Only guns, as the Second Amendment provides.

You want spears, then worship more primitive Gods.

[wj]

...limiting the killing and yet satisfying native American blood lust

"native American blood lust"??? I am trying, without success, to recall a case of a Native American committing a school shooting. Perhaps you could inform me of what I seem to have missed.

[CharlesWT]

"In the wake of the shooting, threats were made against several students belonging to the Tulalip tribe, the Native American tribe Fryberg belonged to."
Marysville Pilchuck High School shooting

[JanieM]

wj -- the Count can obviously speak for himself, but I took the difference between "native American" and "Native American" to be relevant to his comment.

*****

Speaking of Bill Russell's hands (byomtov @8:56), Jon Stewart once had Jerry Rice ("widely considered to be the greatest wide receiver in NFL history") on his show. Rice's hands, up close, were amazing.

For fun -- the statue of Bill Russell at Boston City Hall, which I happened upon in an excursion downtown not long after it had been erected:

[JBird]

Countme-a-Demon | May 19, 2018 at 03:56 PM

Interesting exposition. Please don’t take this the wrong way. I have espoused Socialist, even Communist, ideas and have been called a supporter of Stalin, Mao, or even Pol Pot. Supporting a reduction in wealth inequality makes me want to slaughter entire classes of people I guess. There is a subset of economic conservatives, and libertarians too, who take the very real evils of some people, as well as failed ideals that are a part of economic leftist and even liberal ideologies, and use it to smear, insult, and discredit anyone and anything not the limited part of what they consider Conservative.

Suggesting to some that perhaps some of the Deplorables might have good reasons for not voting Clinton, or maybe some of the socially conservative might have some points about social cohesion, ethics, and morality (some really dislike the worship of Money and the Free Market just like many leftists) have gotten me accused of racism, sexism, and a supporter of hate.

The persistent efforts of the political establishment to split the American population into just two very intellectually limiting ideological straight-jackets is part of a divide and conquer strategy. There has also been a massive distortion and corruption of our language concurrent with it, which also prevents people from having ungood thoughts and having conversations with the Bad People.

[sapient]

Do you have anything to say, JBird, that's not right out of a resentment/Sochlist/Russianot playbook?

Do you have some policy ideas, for example?

[sapient]

You say JBird:

There has also been a massive distortion and corruption of our language concurrent with it, which also prevents people from having ungood thoughts and having conversations with the Bad People.

Could you provide some examples?

My guess is no.

[sapient]

Suggesting to some that perhaps some of the Deplorables might have good reasons for not voting Clinton, or maybe some of the socially conservative might have some points about social cohesion, ethics, and morality (some really dislike the worship of Money and the Free Market just like many leftists) have gotten me accused of racism, sexism, and a supporter of hate.

I'm thinking that if you're supporting "Deplorables", you might actually be a racist, sexist, and supporter of hate.

[wj]

the Count can obviously speak for himself, but I took the difference between "native American" and "Native American" to be relevant to his comment.

Janie, it may well be the case that by (lower case) "native American" he meant what is otherwise styled "real American". Indeed, that was my thought when I initially read his words. But then the (nasty-minded, I admit) temptation to misconstrue overwhelmed me. Mea culpa!

[wj]

Do you have anything to say, JBird, that's not right out of a resentment/Sochlist/Russianot playbook?

Let's face it, sapient. JBird has achieved the previously almost inconceivable (at least to me) feat of making Bob McManus seem a marvel of reality-based open-mindedness and intellectual flexibility. I own myself quite impressed, if someone far more conservative may say so.

[sapient]

Again, wj. We agree.

I'm suspicious of JBird. I call him out as a Russian troll, unless he can manage a policy argument.

[sapient]

Also, the World Socialists: delivering economic equality since 1917!!!!!

[Countme-a-Demon]

see Janie's native American versus Native American.

I nearly changed that as I wrote but thought, welp, leave it and let's see what happens.

In the back of my mind, I was vaguely thinking about an interview I saw with Ann Coulter in which someone or other asked if her forebears were immigrants, and she said no, they were settlers.

American settlers. Why, she's a native American, she thinks.

I thought that was a bit of a pig in a poke(ahontas).

JBird:

No sweat.

"which also prevents people from having ungood thoughts and having conversations with the Bad People."

Most of my extended family, many originating from
hillbilly haven Middletown, Ohio, my birthplace, and most of my friends still among the living are fairly straight-ahead conservatives.

I'm no great fan of Hillary Clinton, until we consider the alternative, and there was only one disastrously real one of those in real time.

"or maybe some of the socially conservative might have some points about social cohesion, ethics, and morality (some really dislike the worship of Money and the Free Market just like many leftists)"

Yes, Rod Dreher at the American Conservative doesn't approve at all of soulless American consumer capitalism, which I find to be a nice respite from his endlessly tedious justifications for discriminating against the LGBT cohort.

"The persistent efforts of the political establishment to split the American population into just two very intellectually limiting ideological straight-jackets is part of a divide and conquer strategy."

Yes, well, the so-called conservative movement has been malignly and organizationally better at it.

The American population is hereby split, torn asunder, just as the elites in the Confederacy achieved during the 1850s.

I've picked a side.

I'll have whatever General Grant was drinking.

[sapient]

I've picked a side.

Thanks. I hope it wasn't hard, because if it was, I'm, ummm ... how do you say ... disappointed.

[wj]

It occurs to me that a Russian troll would likely be better trained in coherence. But then, perhaps Obsidian Wings is obscure enough that we only get a rank novice. They gotta train somewhere, I guess....

[sapient]

It occurs to me that a Russian troll would likely be better trained in coherence.

The training level doesn't need to be very high given the dupishness of a lot of Deplorables.

[CaseyL]

I'm an aspiring fused-glass artist. Last summer I took a course at Bullseye Glass in Portland, OR. Part of the class was a tour of the manufacturing facility.

It was all amazing, fascinating. I knew there's an entire apothecary of chemicals that go into making art glass, but it's something else to see a whole cabinet of them. Bullseye's founders were, IIRC, a couple of good ol boy hippies who started out melting down discarded bottles for use in stained glass. They very soon realized providing reliably colored, firable glass to artists could be a Big Thing and got serious about figuring out formulae for colors, textures, reactions, and so on. There was still an element of great fun: "Hey! Let's put Substance X in the mix and see what happens!"

Bullseye has an entire bank of cauldrons for its sheet glass. Workers bring huge gathers of the molten stuff to rollers, toss the blob in, and roll out sheets. They make the "streakies" by adding pigment to the gather before tossing it and rolling it out. It requires some serious expertise, and no small about of faith, since molten glass is a uniform glowing red and you have no idea what it'll look like until it cools.

Glass is magic stuff.

[sapient]

Glass is cool. Craftspeople of all kinds are doing some things. Even ephemeral soap craftspeople - try working with that lye. You go, y'all!

Keeping beautiful things around? That's so lovely, and in future ages, the gratitude will abound.

[sapient]

Back to JBird. A Russian troll. Prove otherwise.

[JBird]

It occurs 0 me that a Russian troll would likely be better trained in coherence. But then, perhaps Obsidian Wings is obscure enough that we only get a rank novice. They gotta train somewhere, I guess....

Good grief, I am not just a troll, I am a Russian Troll!

I’ve hit the big time.

:-)

More seriously, I have been reading Obsidian Wings for more than a decade(?) I think. Certainly when Hilzoy posted.

Anyways, it’s just fine to disagree with me, or critique my overlong posts. I am often wrong. The soshulism-Russian-troll insults are nice. I am a socialist, so that’s not an insult.

Yes, well, the so-called conservative movement has been malignly and organizationally better at it.

The top down hierarchical organization of theirs is pain. They also started purging their “RINOs” a few decades ago. That is conservatives who weren’t good little drones, but like Drehr, make their own decisions.

The American population is hereby split, torn asunder, just as the elites in the Confederacy achieved during the 1850s.

The Southern elites ultimately won. Check out the leading families from before the Civil War and now are much alike. In places like Alabama, unchanged. The poor and working class Southern whites died, or were crippled in massive numbers, and lost much of their wealth, blacks were re-enslaved for about a century, and let’s not forget the North too. However, the Southern elites after a few decades were doing just fine.

I've picked a side.

I'll have whatever General Grant was drinking.

Good. Just remember who your enemies truly are. Get the God D—- leadership, the ruling elites and especially their stolen wealth, not the their bullyboy patsies.

[Marty]

I lived in Bisbee, AZ lifetime ago. The copper mine was shut down, big tourist hole in the ground they got out of filling by making it a landmark. Besides some of the best turquoise in the world stil came out of the mine.

The town was a haven for recent hippies and artisans of all types. Leather goods, glass blowing, stained glass and, of course, silver and turquoise jewelry.

One of the most amazing parts was the turquoise inlaid silver cap that Bisbee Bob had on his front tooth I learned from Bob how to make jewelry, I made several dozen rings that he sold. His best pieces were amazing but he turned out lots of tourist pieces that he flew to Hawaii to sell in the early 70's.

I still look at nice turquoise pieces to see if they could be his.

[sapient]

JBird, Have you come up with a plan? Policy is boring, and hard. And bots don't do it.

[sapient]

More seriously, I have been reading Obsidian Wings for more than a decade(?) I think. Certainly when Hilzoy posted.

Great assignment! How much were you paid in US dollars?

[wj]

JBird does make a couple of excellent points.
First, not all trolls are Russians who merely doing it for pay. Some of them are merely noxious personalities. If he wants to claim to be such, it could be true.

Second, there are also those who merely believe the demonstrably false, simply because they are unable to face reality. The right happens to be the home the more blatant examples at the moment. But the left has never lacked for them. So it's entirely possible that he is one of those instead.

[sapient]

True, wj. Absolutely true.

[JBird]

JBird, Have you come up with a plan? Policy is boring, and hard. And bots don't do it.

Sorry, I do not have any, but the vaguest ideas, which is why I am back in college. WTF do I know? People far more intelligent, knowledgeable, and wiser have fracked it. I have to try something because whining about the whole mess is just useless. If we’re both alive in thirty years, let me email (or whatever is being used then) you from my wheel chair, and we’ll see how I did.

[russell]

Glass is magic stuff.

liquid that stands still

I lived in Bisbee, AZ lifetime ago

i miss tha 70's sometimes. the world seemed a lot more wide-open then.

cool story marty.

I'm thinking JBird may be an odd duck but probably not a troll.

time will tell.

in any case, obwi's a come one come all joint.

[dr ngo]

Just to say I not only know who Gary Sobers is, I saw him hit a Test century at Lords. (Also saw Greg Chappell hit one at the SCG and David Gower hit one at The Oval.)

Never saw Bill Russell in person, but followed his career since he led the University of San Francisco (!) to two NCAA championships back in the mid 1950s.

I know Arlo and Pete only from TV, records, etc., but I heard Bob Dylan at the Newport Folk Festival in 1963.

As some nameless singers used to intone:

"I get around / I get around . . ."

[Michael Cain]

Not magic, but unexpected...

20 or so years ago, I was working at a giant telecom company when internet access service was becoming a serious thing. During some data mining operation, the billing folks came up with a DS3 linking a warehouse in a sketchy part of town to an ISP location nearby. (For the youngsters, a DS3 was 45 Mbps, which was a serious chunk of bandwidth at that time.) It was unusual enough the company wanted to know more. I had been the "TCP/IP is the future" guy at the company for some years and was attached to the group that was supposed to find out what was going on.

Inside the warehouse were dozens of small curtained-off areas. In each one was a bed, a video camera, a (for the time) quite powerful PC, and a young woman with a headset. The women's attire ranged from completely nude up to quite involved costuming. Pre-paid customers got 30 minutes of live audio/video of a woman fulfilling answers to the question "What would you like to watch me do?"

We were allowed to talk briefly with a couple of the women. They seemed to be pleased with the physical safety of the arrangement and that they got a paycheck every two weeks. I assume such services are done in a distributed fashion today, no need for the warehouse.

[JanieM]

Michael Cain...wow.

[CharlesWT]

They seemed to be pleased with the physical safety of the arrangement and that they got a paycheck every two weeks.

If the US could get over its hang-ups with sex work and repeal the criminal laws against it, thousands of people could have good incomes in safe working conditions.

[Michael Cain]

I suspect that's a necessary but not entirely sufficient condition, Charles. Even locally, with black markets in nannies, maids, all sorts of day labor in construction, I suspect there will still be a black market in sex work where it's a lot more dangerous. Smaller than it is today, but still present.

[Tony P.]

"Sex work" includes marrying rich dirty old men, which is already perfectly legal and so little-frowned-upon that it is not even a bar to becoming "First Lady".

--TP

[CharlesWT]

There'll always be a black market for products and services where there's greater than a marginal cost burden due to regulations and taxes. Some states that have legalized marijuana are finding this out.

[bob mcmanus]

Open thread, Nick Srnicek, Technology After Capitalism:

On the other hand, if this is not free labour, then these firms are parasitical on other valueproducing industries and global capitalism is in a more dire state. A quick glance at the stagnating global economy suggests that the latter is more likely.

"Rather than exploiting free labour, the position taken here is that advertising platforms appropriate data as a raw material. The activities of users and institutions, if they are recorded and transformed into data, become a raw material that can be refined and used in a variety of ways by platforms."

1) User data can also be viewed as history and as "dead" labour...same thing.

2) By theorizing user data as a raw material like oil or timber he naturalizes a commodity and erases history and labour. This is a liberal/neoliberal move, everybody all brand new in Murica.

3) He does have a point that seeing my playing venomancer in dota 2 as either labour or commodity is not intuitive. Yet money is made. Work's yet to be done.

[Nigel]

Just to say I not only know who Gary Sobers is, I saw him hit a Test century at Lords...
I'm jealous.

Gower was probably my favourite batsman to watch... until Pietersen came along. Both fell foul of the suits.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/feb/21/joy-of-six-kevin-pietersen

[wj]

Breaking news: Trump cancels summit with North Korea.

All I can say is Whew!!! The prospect of someone who is clueless about details (or, to a large extent, broad strokes) negotiating anything is downright scary. I think we dodged a bullet here.

[JanieM]

wj, Whew!! indeed.

It would be interesting to know what role the translators would have played......

[Marty]

Whew! Thank goodness we aren't having a summit to negotiate a permanent end to the Korean conflict and an actual denuclearization agreement.

That would have been awful.

While I think from a diplomatic standpoint this pull out is pretty well played, it is still disappointing that we haven't gotten to the table.

I don't understand a celebratory reaction unless one simply wants Trump to not accomplish anything good. Which is counterproductive.

[hairshirthedonist]

I don't understand a celebratory reaction unless one simply wants Trump to not accomplish anything good. Which is counterproductive.

Relief isn't celebration. Of course, it should be obvious that those expressing relief don't think Trump is capable of accomplishing anything good diplomatically, more likely he would screw things up, maybe badly.

Trump is the drunk who finally handed over his car keys. Yet Marty wants to know why we don't want him to get home safely.

[Tony P.]

Is Marty still under the impression that he's not a supporter of He, Trump?

--TP

[wj]

I don't understand a celebratory reaction unless one simply wants Trump to not accomplish anything good.

I would be positively delighted were Trump to accomplish something good. I just recognize that his grasp of the issues is nil and his ability to negotiate has repeatedly been shown to be somewhere between minimal and nonexistent.

[cleek]

Breaking news: Trump cancels summit with North Korea.

but he already took two or three victory laps! he had coins made! NOBEL PRIZE!

and now the US looks stupid, and irrelevant. again. North and South Korea are going to do their own thing.

good job, Stupid Party.

[wj]

now the US looks stupid, and irrelevant. again.

By this point, I think most of the world is differentiating Trump and the US.

They may think us stupid for electing him. But that's pretty much baked in by now.

[hairshirthedonist]

People don't expect much from you when they know you have a bad case of the flu. But they also expect it to pass, and that you'll be back to your normal self at some point. The Trump administration is the United States' bad case of the flu.

[novakant]

I'm not relieved: this, and the Iran/Saudi/Israel policy shift, is incredibly dangerous - the damage is already done.

[wj]

the damage is already done.

Say, rather, some (even lots of) damage is already done. But I, for one, wouldn't underestimate the amount of additional damage that could be achieved. I think it's unwise to underestimate Trump's aptitude in such endeavours. His track record speaks for itself.

[Marty]

"now the US looks stupid, and irrelevant. again.
"
this is just completely missing the flow of events. This cancellation was coordinated with South Korea, and was the best negotiating tactic available based on North Koreas recent bluster.

This is one of his better moves. But see it's not a question of supporting Trump. You either support the policy of engaging North Korea or not.

The comments here are about whether he can walk and chew gum at the same time. Which one can do and still be an ass.

I have consistently said I support many of his (Republican) policies.

[hairshirthedonist]

This is one of his better moves.

I thought you were upset because you thought people here were happy about it.

[russell]

That would have been awful.

He shoulda told Bolton and Pence to STFU.

This is one of his better moves.

OK, whatever.

[wj]

This is one of his better moves. But see it's not a question of supporting Trump. You either support the policy of engaging North Korea or not.

Engagement can be (to my mind is) a good policy. That doesn't mean that setting up a summit, with zero advance work and featuring someone who has minimal information about the whole situation, is a good idea. Who is doing the engagement, and with what expectations, is also important.

[sapient]

This cancellation was coordinated with South Korea

Are you sure?

[russell]

also, too.

[russell]

Who knows, maybe he could have pulled something good off.

Seems bloody unlikely now.

[cleek]

This is one of his better moves.

it was a circus from the start. everyone involved on the US side kept stepping on each other's message. they hyped it as total NK nuclear disarmament from the very start and left themselves no negotiating room at all.

i guess we could assume that means they were never interested in negotiating at all. but if that's the case, then what they were trying to do isn't clear. because they made themselves look very foolish as they fumbled around incoherently, tripping over each other, and making ridiculous pronouncements. while NK sat there and gawked.

at the end of this, NK looks pretty shrewd.

Trump got played: either by Kim, or by himself.

[JanieM]

From Adam Silverman at BJ: Not only did the President not give Moon a heads up, he also decided to blindside the DPRK too!

[JanieM]

Trump got played: either by Kim, or by himself.

Let's not forget China in the shadowy background.

[Hartmut]

As despicable as the Northern Kim and his regime are, they would have to have a strong death wish to consider giving up their nukes (or the credible claim to possess them).
They know that the US cannot be trusted (at least not with GOPsters in charge or potentially in charge at a later time).
And Bolton put the cherry on top by recommeding to NK the Lybian option.
I somehow doubt that the Northern Kim sees it as his goal to get beaten and stabbed to death in the streets.

[Tony P.]

Marty: I have consistently said I support many of his (Republican) policies.

You have also generally defended He, Trump on non-policy matters. Maybe it's because you don't care whether He is a pussy-grabbing, race-baiting, Putin-ass-licking, kleptocrat as long as He pushes your favored "(Republican)" policies -- I can't read your mind.

But I would seriously like to know: WHICH of His "(Republican)" policies do you "support"? Holding Dreamers hostage for His wall? Dumping the Iran deal? Raising the "national" debt by $1T so He can give the money to His fat-cat supporters?

And, on a non-policy matter: what say you, Marty, about He, Trump's off-hand musings that NFL players who don't toe the line on His caricature of "patriotism" probably "don't belong in the country"?

--TP

[russell]

But I would seriously like to know

I don't like to speak for Marty, but from his comments here I think it's:

* tax cuts
* de-regulation, especially business and financial
* the market's doing pretty good

If I'm not speaking accurately for Marty, I'm speaking accurately for the "we like him because he's a business guy!" types that I know.

[wj]

You have to be a very shortsighted business type (which, admittedly, many of them seem to be) to see Trump and his administration** as anything but a turbocharger on the road to a disaster.

** Notice how I deftly avoided implying the existance of actual economic "policies". Since, as far as I can tell, the only consistent policies are:

• maximize adulation for Trump.
  • as a related subset, destroy or reverse anything and everything associated with Obama.
• maximize income/wealth for Trump. (Bilking the system for cash by others in the administration is permitted, but not required.)

[cleek]

and he just added: threatening car import tariffs of up to 25%!

i'm so old i remember when the GOP was the Free Trade™ party.

[russell]

Two and a half years to go.

[Marty]

* tax cuts
* de-regulation, especially the overreach the last administration put in place with questionable legal basis
* Compromise policy on immigration
* Gorsuch
* Paris Accords
* Iran in General
* North Korea
* Israel
* Shared Infrastructure Investment
* Charter Schools everywhere
* ACA policy
* NATO pulling its own weight
* Tariffs as an actual bargaining tool rather than the long standing policy of asking the WTO to create an even playing field that they will never create
* Oh and taking on Russia in Syria, (even if it is just for show)

I'm sure there are number of others that I agree with.

The party holding the Dreamers hostage, as always, is the Democrats. They turned down a deal that they weren't fond of to demand a unilateral action while refusing to do anything to secure the border. They simply cant take yes for an answer and lose that issue for the next, and next and next, election.

Interesting I saw Michael Morrell on tv this weekend basically saying that its a good thing for our foreign policy that places like Iran/NKPR aren't really sure whether we will use force or not. But effective use of that worry is still up in the air. I agree with him.

He also represented those of us that can read and knew the Iran deal guarantees they will be a nuclear power in ten years.

[russell]

Marty's list is pretty much why I would hate a POTUS Trump even if he wasn't a crook and a fool.

Sadly, he's all that and a bag of chips.

[bobbyp]

Trump is the GOP. Ergo, Marty is all in on Trump.

[bobbyp]

Just picking one at random:

"NATO pulling its own weight"

Indeed. A fully rearmed nuclear Germany would be a great thing. Japan and S. Korea might as well join in to show they, too, have skin in the game, and can "carry their own weight"!

Just like the good old days!

[bobbyp]

Interesting I saw Michael Morrell on tv this weekend basically saying that its a good thing for our foreign policy that places like Iran/NKPR aren't really sure whether we will use force or not. But effective use of that worry is still up in the air. I agree with him.

That is just juvenile dick wagging. If "nobody is sure" about the use of force, then a rational presumption would be to assume force it shall be, sooner or later, and plan and/take action accordingly. But no, wingnuts just think everybody else but them is stupid and weak, and that you can not only win, but win easily on the international stage by bluster and force and doing it on the cheap.

It has never worked.

[Marty]

NATO pulling its own weight, paying around 2% of gdp in defense. Pretty sure that doesn't fully rearm anyone.

[Tony P.]

Somebody ask Marty WTF he means by "compromise policy on immigration". Please.

I'd do it myself, but I'm done pretending that Marty is anything but a down-the-line idolater of He, Trump. Marty is lying to himself, not us.

--TP

[bobbyp]

NATO pulling its own weight, paying around 2% of gdp in defense. Pretty sure that doesn't fully rearm anyone.

Trump's bluster essentially threatens to withdraw the nuclear umbrella. If Germany decides the U.S. will not be there at crunch time, they shall rearm, and that 2% will be a thing of the past.

Or, if Trump is just blustering, and everybody ignores him, what's the point? He accomplishes nothing.

[Marty]

"then a rational presumption would be to assume force it shall be, sooner or later, and plan and/take action accordingly."

Which could very well be to cut a deal. It has worked, I watched it. The intermediate range ballistic missile treaty was signed weeks after the first deployment of one that could drop in a ten foot circle in Red Square.

Emboldening your adversaries comes from allowing them to be sure there are no consequences to their actions that they aren't willing to suffer. Iran is there today, maybe NK was, maybe is.

But the consequences they are willing to pay is perhaps different, perhaps not.

[Marty]

"If Germany decides the U.S. will not be there at crunch time, they shall rearm, and that 2% will be a thing of the past."

Yep they will all rearm instead of just living up to their treaty obligation to pay their share. That makes all the sense and we should worry about that.

[bobbyp]

Yep they will all rearm instead of just living up to their treaty obligation to pay their share.

Trump has shown he has no respect for treaties. If Germany raised their defense spending, what's to stop the US for coming back and demanding more? That is the image Trump promotes.

If Germany is to "up their game" to try and keep in good standing with an unreliable ally, they would rightfully be mocked. Rationally, they would go nuclear. France did it. Why not them?

[Nigel]

What has Trump achieved in Korea other than to cut the ground out from under a close US ally ?
Or Iran, other than to antagonise the US European allies, and cede influence in the region to Russia and China ?

He’s a blustering fool.

[Tony P.]

Well, He is an exploiter of blustering fools. That He is one, himself, just goes to show how easy exploiting blustering fools is.

--TP

[bobbyp]

Which could very well be to cut a deal. It has worked, I watched it. The intermediate range ballistic missile treaty was signed weeks after the first deployment of one that could drop in a ten foot circle in Red Square.

This is simply a falsification of history. The Soviets obtained concessions as well. It was a bilateral treaty, not a diktat, and the history behind the back and forth goes back about 10 years. I was there, too.

[Marty]

"What has Trump achieved in Korea"

well, he hasn't won a peace prize.

[sapient]

well, he hasn't won a peace prize.

As long as the nuke hasn't been launched, Marty will declare victory. And then when the nuke is launched, he won't.

[Marty]

"The Soviets obtained concessions as well. It was a bilateral treaty, not a diktat,"

An odd turn of phrase, I'm sure I never said anything about a diktat, but the Russians weren't giving up intermediate range supersonic weapons without us having GLCM, deployed, to go along with the Pershings. The concern for a first strike that deeply diminished retaliation to subs was just not acceptable risk.

[wj]

Compromise policy on immigration

I've got to second Tony here. What compromise immigration policy??? Last I looked, there was a (maybe multiple) compromise immigration bill in the House. Which Ryan has been refusing to bring to a vote precisely because, he says, Trump wouldn't sign it. And he knows it would pass if brought to a vote. Currently a Discharge Petition is getting close to the needed signatures.

If you're seeing some other compromise actually happening on immigration, please advise. Even one that looks close to happening with Trump's, if not help, at least clear acquiescence.

[Marty]

He offered Dreamers for reform and funding the wall. They just said no. The wall is a irrelevancy so Dreamers for two reforms. They should have just said yes. But, no.