Ur American Sh1thole Values NFL Open Thread

by Ugh

More Trump because why not? Eh. I've seen responses to the latest sharted eruption from POTUS saying that it "does not represent American values," to which my response of late is "Are you sure?" Almost 63 million people voted for this waste. There is a long history of American racism in immigration (and obviously other) matters that continues to this day, apparently. So, who are we kidding? 

Meanwhile, the GOP is in all in on doing everything they can to deny African Americans the ability to vote. Full stop, not even pretending anymore. "Party of Lincoln" GFY.

Anyway, all is full game here. Rooting for a Pats-Vikings Superbowl here in suddenly balmy DC. I recommend Belize for a visit. The Southern Reach Trilogy was interesting and different, but not sure I'd recommend it.

Fire away.

Comments

[wj]

And it would have been so easy to avoid the "racism!" accusation. Just include Britain in the list -- after all, it's bad enough that he was moved to cancel his trip there....

[Nigel]

To be fair, the invitation was for south of the river...

[cleek]

The Southern Reach Trilogy was interesting and different, but not sure I'd recommend it.

it wasn't my favorite of VanderMeer's. but, i remain a loyal fan.

[Ugh]

what else of his would you recommend cleek?

[cleek]

maybe check out one of his short story collections: Secret Life, Secret Lives and The Third Bear.

Borne was good, especially if you get the additional stories (Komodo, Strange Bird).

i really liked his City Of Saints And Madmen, too. though that's maybe an advanced read.

but i do think i like him more for his dazzling worlds maybe more than the actual stories.

[Pollo de muerte]

Belize has awesome snorkeling and the cave tubing is fun.

I was shocked to find Amish there.

[cleek]

I was shocked to find Amish there.

totally.

i had no idea they were there until i saw them.

i was in Belize in 2000 (?). we stayed on La Isla Bonita Ambergris Caye, in a house about a mile from San Pedro. it was a lot of fun until we all got food poisoning.

we did a day trip inland to see some Mayan ruins - hour on a boat, hour on a bus, another hour on a different boat. on the way we saw some Amish/Mennonites/whatevs hanging out on the river. they zipped away as soon as they saw us coming, not before i could take some pix, though!

[hairshirthedonist]

I saw Amish in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. Whoah!

[Pollo de muerte]

Devil Hen is from Amish country in PA ... her comment upon stumbling upon them in Belize: "I can't escape these ****ers".

[hairshirthedonist]

There's actually an Amish market about 15 minutes from me in South Jersey. It's awesome (not meant sarcastically).

[russell]

if we ever get a really serious electromagnetic solar event, the Amish will rule the world.

we'll all be growing beards and wearing funny hats then.

[wj]

Well at least we can take comfort from the fact that Mr Trump has "a very good relationship with Kim Jong Un," He says so himself, so it must be true. (I do wonder if Mr Kim is aware....)

[Michael Cain]

wj, in the previous thread, referring to these:
Michael, those are some cool maps! Any chance they are commercially available? (Not that I have time to play with them at the moment. But I can always bookmark the page, against the day I do.)

Not prior to this. I suppose I could generate really big PDF versions and have them printed. Or just send the files to you. I've been thinking in terms of giving the software away, or a little web-based service (submit your data, get a modest-sized image file back). The Worldmapper folks have lots of prepared cartograms available.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

@cleek:"Amish/Mennonites/whatevs hanging out on the river. they zipped away as soon as they saw us coming"

They were probably illegals.

[hairshirthedonist]

we'll all be growing beards and wearing funny hats then.

You mean your aren't already? Did I jump the gun?

[hairshirthedonist]

From today's FiveThirtyEight Riddler Express:

Choose three points on a circle at random and connect them to form a triangle. What is the probability that the center of the circle is contained in that triangle?

I say 7/8 after thinking about it for 5 seconds. What do you think?

[hairshirthedonist]

I'm changing my answer to 3/4.

[Michael Cain]

You mean your aren't already? Did I jump the gun?

I've grown sideburns this winter -- something between John Quincy Adams and a badly-aging Sabretooth. Hair's getting thin enough that I need to think about wearing a hat outdoors in the summer, but I've been leaning more Indiana Jones than Amish.

[CharlesWT]

I say 7/8...

That's not acute answer...

[hairshirthedonist]

Note: I took the question to mean on the circumference, not the interior.

[JakeB]

After about a minute, I'm guessing 1/3.

[JakeB]

Hey, I have hats and a funny beard. Is that close enough?

[Michael Cain]

After about a minute, I'm guessing 1/3.

Certainly less than 1/2. WLOG, place the first point arbitrarily. Draw the diameter that includes that point. If the two other points both fall on the same side of that line (probability 1/2), the center is not included in the triangle. And there are also combinations where the points are on opposite sides of that line where the triangle doesn't include the center.

I can see a fuzzy picture in my head and could write an integral from that, but can't do it in my head.

[wj]

I'll go with 1/2 (just hair under, if you exclude cases where the center is right on the edge of the triangle).

Rotate the circle so the first point is at the top. Put the second point anywhere along the left side of the circle. For the center to be inside the triangle, the third point has to be on the right side, and closer to the bottom than the second point is to the top. Which nets to 1/2 of the cases.

The odds are identical when the second and third flip sides. So that doesn't change the overall odds.

[russell]

Hey, I have hats and a funny beard. Is that close enough?

You're in!

[sapient]

That's not acute answer...

But that is.

[Tony P.]

Pick a point, any point, A, on the circle. Pick a 2nd point B at random. How far around the circle is it? At most, halfway around; on average, 1/4 of the way around.

How much of the circle can the 3rd point be on, to define a triangle that includes the center?

Simple: 1/4 of the circumference -- the quadrant opposite the 1st two points.

So, 1/4 is the answer.

--TP

[byomtov]

we'll all be growing beards and wearing funny hats then.

No big deal. It was good enough for my grandfather.

The German word heimisch, which my dictionary says means "native," or "indigenous," comes out in Yiddish as meaning something like "down-home." It describes a person, or place, that one is easily comfortable with, "at home."

It is pronounced "Ay-mish," and in my youth I was somewhat puzzled by pictures of Amish, looking like Orthodox Jews and described by a Yiddish word. What is this about?

I eventually learned.

[novakant]

I never know what to make of the phrase "American values" (or "UK values" or "xyz values") - it just doesn't make any sense, if values aren't universal they are worthless.

And from the exceptionalist notion that one's own nation embodies a set of values it is only one small step to the jingoism and racism represented by Trump and his voters.

[sapient]

if values aren't universal they are worthless.

Worthless? I'm not sure that's true.

If "values" means what people hold important, that notion varies widely depending on culture. Chastity is a value that's much more important in some cultures than in others. That doesn't mean it's "worthless". Maybe it's worthless to you (or me), but some people hold it valuable.

Autonomy is valuable to me, but much less to me than to a libertarian. That doesn't mean it's "worthless".

Please explain your view.

[CharlesWT]

So, 1/4 is the answer.

What is the probability that the center of the circle is contained within the triangle?

[sapient]

Good job, CharlesWT! That was fun.

[Girl from the North Country]

byomtov, in the Yiddish I often heard spoken, it was pronounced "haymish", so perhaps your "aymish" is an Americanism, like "erbs" instead of "herbs" as in the rest of the English-speaking world?

[sapient]

And from the exceptionalist notion that one's own nation embodies a set of values it is only one small step to the jingoism and racism represented by Trump and his voters.

It's actually not. Some governments are set up with certain aspirational goals, either explicitly or implicitly. The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal of the United States, to welcome immigrants who have been maligned or rejected elsewhere.

We certainly are betraying that promise now. But some countries have never made that promise. There's nothing wrong with the "exceptionalist" nature of the promise. There's something hugely wrong with the betrayal of the promise.

[hairshirthedonist]

My simple reasoning on the circle-triangle question is that all 3 points have to be in the same arbitrary half of the circle's circumference, so 1/2 cubed. I then realized that it could be either half for the center not to be in the triangle. So 1/4 inverted to 3/4.

[Governess Dam]

The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal of the United States, to welcome immigrants

The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal, but it isn't to welcome immigrants.

This is going to be a bit more difficult than the triangle in a circle problem, but for those playing along at home, the name of the goal is in the name of the statue.

[hairshirthedonist]

I guess you can ignore the inscription.

[sapient]

the name of the goal is in the name of the statue.

"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "

All.

[Governess Dam]

I guess you can ignore the inscription.

July IV, MDCCLXXVI? I don't think we should ignore that, it is quite an important date.

[sapient]

The Lazarus poem came later. But even if you are an originalist statue person, you might consider the Declaration of Independence as a "value" of the United States.

[sapient]

Or maybe you're a racist Trump person, Governess Dam, whereby you might explain what kind of shithole you might have come from?

[Governess Dam]

Well they didn't name it the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness. Probably would have been a totally different look.

[sapient]

Guess you're afraid to narrate your origin story. Worried about being outed as a non-native-American?

[Michael Cain]

With some time to come back, I wrote out the integrals and got the answer 1/4. With my applied mathematician hat on, I note that the brute force calculus approach does not depend on the various sorts of symmetry other folks' correct solution requires. Real life is seldom symmetric.

[Tony P.]

The Statue of Liberty to Own Guns would have been brandishing a revolver instead of holding a torch.

The Statue of Liberty to Breathe Smog would have been stomping on a catalytic converter.

The Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would have had a comb-over under that crown.

Playing along at home is fun.

--TP

[sapient]

Upvote, TP.

[Governess Dam]

I'm betting the Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would look a lot like the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness.

[sapient]

I'm betting the Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would look a lot like the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness.

I'll take that bet! I'll wager a gazillion that you're wrong! When do I collect?

[Tony P.]

If acting stupid is what makes you happy, who am I to complain?

--TP

[Governess Dam]

So no tax on soda then?

[sapient]

Is this the usual troll or a new one?

[hairshirthedonist]

1/4 is the (or an) intuitive answer if the 3 points can be anywhere in the area of the circle.

[russell]

The Statue of Liberty exemplifies an aspirational goal, but it isn't to welcome immigrants.

the statue is based on roman goddess libertas, who was an emblem of republican (small r) governance. the inspiration for erecting it at the particular time it was erected was the union victory in the american civil war.

subsequently, because of its position at the entrance to NY harbor and its proximity to immigration processing centers like ellis island, it became associated with the experience of the very large influx of immigrants that came to the US in the late 19th and early 20th C. the lazarus poem is in that spirit.

some folks see openness to immigrants as a positive tradition in the american fabric. some don't. i have family that came to this country via ellis, and that statue was on of the first things they saw upon arriving here. so i do see it as positive.

you are welcome to your own opinion.

what is undoubtedly so is that with few exceptions everybody here came from somewhere else. the details are just a matter of timing.

we get pretty snarky aound here, but most of us here have been here a while and know each other and know what the traffic will bear. you appear to be a nercomer, you're welcome to hang out, but perhaps you'll get a better reception if you don't lead off by being a dick.

just saying.

[russell]

If acting stupid is what makes you happy, who am I to complain?

So no tax on soda then?

if only we could tax stupid. our fiscal problems would disappear, overnight, as if by magic.

[Tony P.]

hsh: 1/4 is the (or an) intuitive answer if the 3 points can be anywhere in the area of the circle

Really? I can't imagine how to intuit that, let alone prove it.

Meanwhile, 1/4 remains the correct answer for 3 random points ON the circle.

BTW, you were correct a few weeks back: the traveling twin ages less (both by his own clock AND the stay-at-home's clock) because he accelerates (by changing direction).

--TP

[bobbyp]

So no tax on soda then?

Nope. If soda is so darned important, then wipe the snot off your upper lip, get off your ass, go out and get a job, get some money and buy a gddammned taxed soda fer christ's sake.

They tax 'effing gasoline. Did you know that?
And cigarettes, too. Yes, unbelievable!

[Governess Dam]

you are welcome to your own opinion.

That's my favorite. It means what it doesn't mean.

[Tony P.]

"You are welcome to your own opinion."

"You are welcome to my agreement with your opinion."

Two different statements, but some people can't tell the difference because they're ... special.

--TP

[wj]

. the inspiration for erecting it at the particular time it was erected was the union victory in the american civil war.

Except I thought it was a gift from France. (Which, if memory serves, has its own copy in Paris.)

[Tony P.]

It was a gift from France. For America's Centennial. I don't think the Confederates getting their asses whupped in the War Betwixt the States had anything to do with it.

--TP

[Snarki, child of Loki]

There IS a copy in Paris. Or perhaps, the USA has the copy, and the statue that was made first is in Paris. Not only is it smaller, you can get much closer, outside.

[Governess Dam]

There's a copy in Vegas too, that most American of all cities.

"You are welcome to your own opinion."

"You are welcome to my agreement with your opinion."

Two different statements
No response I got here makes me think that you believe I am welcome to my opinion.

[Hartmut]

I'm betting the Statue of Liberty to Act Stupid would look a lot like the Statue of the Pursuit of Happiness.

If the emphasis is on 'pursuit', this may be a bit cynical but has some truth to it.

Ja, renn nur nach dem Glück
doch renne nicht zu sehr
denn alle rennen nach dem Glück
das Glück rennt hinterher
(Bertolt Brecht, Threepenny Opera)

(Yeah, run after happiness, but do not run too much, for everyone is running after happiness, happiness is running after them)

[joel hanes]

If one feels offended and attacked when others disagree and argue against one's expressed opinions, it's probably a poor idea to go out of one's way to express those opinions in a public forum devoted to disagreement and debate over ideas.

Unless one's goal is to be offended and feel attacked.

[joel hanes]

some people can't tell the difference

I am reminded of former half-term Governor Sarah Palin's apparent conviction that "freedom of speech" meant that she could say anything at all without being subject to criticism for her statements -- that the freedom was all _hers_.

The freedom of other people to say what they thought of Ms. Palin didn't enter into her calculations at all.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Had the al Qaeda 9/11 conservatives flown their planes into the Statue of Liberty, subhuman American republican confederate deplorable vermin would have risen to their feet on rooftops, including in mp's shithole Tower, in their shithole red states and celebrated the event.

Word has it the republican shooter in Vegas stopped by the copy in Vegas before his personal outreach event so Liberty could bless his freedom to murder, American-style.

Been reading comment sections (amazing how many conservative hateful vermin hang at financial threads; remarkably like white supremacist sites like StormFront, which is just another name for Mar-a-Lago) and along with the mp enablers in the republican mafia, whose lives have shortened considerably unbeknownst to them, and it's clear that the mp "shithole" remarks have been fully normalized into the discourse.

I expect mp to take down the fags, kikes, jew boys, towelheads, camel jockeys, niggers, wetbacks, and cunts, by name in the SOTU coming up soon and not one of the near-Death republicans in Congress or the entire republican edifice in the media or blogdom or academia will rise to their feet to yell "You lie!" from the cheap seats they are paid billions to occupy.

Lucy Palin got no splainin to do in pigfuck shithole freed up politically incorrect America, so Ricky be deported to babaloo land in Cuba so she can suck Fred Mertz's republican cock tax free.

My mother told me as a child that if I didn't have anything nice to say, better to keep a sock in it, but she just as well could have added make sure you don't say or write anything that will land you in shackles with a hood over your head in front of a FISA Court on the way to Guantanamo, but that is now my life's goal.

I just deleted a previous comment that would have landed all of us in Homeland Security custody, but we'll all be there soon enough despite me, by necessity.

Sorry, Mom.

Look deep into this face, republicans. But I repeat myself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx-rrBv2lyc

[Countme-a-Demon]

Norwegian Anders Behring Breivik has been named Immigrant Citizen of the Century and accorded immediate American citizenship, as he meets all of the qualifications to live and kill the Other in shit hole America.

[Pro Bono]

I don't think the Confederates getting their asses whupped in the War Betwixt the States had anything to do with it.

Au contraire. It was proposed by Édouard de Laboulaye, chairman of the French Anti-Slavery Society, shortly after the Union victory.

[Countme-a-Demon]

"Au contraire. It was proposed by Édouard de Laboulaye, chairman of the French Anti-Slavery Society, shortly after the Union victory."

The French are so romantic.

A perfect line intersects Laboulaye's quaint sentiments and the republican reaction to them in shit hole confederate 2018 America.

A quote from another site's comment thread from a deplorable defensing mp, to be inscribed on the statue of these dead slave owners to be erected by the republican party in place of the Statue of Liberty after conservative terrorists blow the latter up:

"No one in the last 5000 years has ever said we need more black people."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGFjt2aaOg0

[Countme-a-Demon]

While I'm at it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDBmGlTLrDI

America aspires to these heros' low standards.

How many shitheads does it take to fill shithole America?

[hairshirthedonist]

With “Posted by: Tony P. | January 12, 2018 at 06:53 PM,” a more-sober me agrees. Also with the more-rigorous (i.e. using integrals) solution by MC and at CharlesWT’s link. But the pure logic is unassailable AFAIAC.

You are not welcome to your own opinion, but that’s just my opinion, which I am not wecome to - at least not in my opinion.

[novakant]

Maybe it's worthless to you (or me), but some people hold it valuable.

I think you've just answered your own question. People can consider anything under the sun valuable, and good for them - but it's completely arbitrary.

[byomtov]

GfTNC,

I'm sure it is often pronounced with the "H," but dropping it is not an Americanism. The Yiddish we spoke at home came from Poland, not New York.

[Countme-a-Demon]

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/racism

[Girl from the North Country]

Interesting, thanks byomtov. As previously discussed, most jews I knew in my youth were of Lithuanian background, so maybe that's the difference. Although, in Israel, I also heard plenty of yiddish, and I don't remember the dropped H. Alas, I don't speak yiddish, but I wish I did since it is clearly the most expressive, funny, wonderful language. I use some of the words I know, such as (to express being confused, distracted, mixed-up) "tsumisht". Impossible to put it better, I would have thought.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Not since World War II have we had to fight a savage war on two fronts against two united fascist enemies, Russia and the republican party, and this time on American soil:

https://www.balloon-juice.com/2018/01/12/penetration-at-all-levels-us-senate-edition/

[Countme-a-Demon]

Well, silly, because the entire press corps, including Slate, were in the bag for mp:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/01/why-did-slate-protect-trumps-hush-money-secret/

I suspect Russian had something on many of the main players in the American press.

[Countme-a-Demon]

Yet another piece of shithole crap who was spreading conservative principles like impetigo thru a preschool is escorted off the premises:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/12/teresa-manning-hhs-title-x-escorted-premises-339514

[Countme-a-Demon]

I hate it when shithole republicans go after their fellow shithole RINOs:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/13/1732503/-Alabama-ultra-rightists-want-state-GOP-leaders-to-censure-Sen-Shelby-for-not-backing-Roy-Moore

[Countme-a-Demon]

Red state shitholes are exempted from loosening the rules on harming migratory bird species, but once the birds migrate over blue state territory, conservatives may harm them all they want:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/12/1732204/-Former-interior-officials-denounce-Ryan-Zinke-s-decision-to-weaken-rules-on-migratory-birds

[russell]

the initial proposal for the statue was made to bartholdi by edouard de laboulaye, a french anti-slavery activist.

No response I got here makes me think that you believe I am welcome to my opinion.

and yet no-one has in any way interfered with your desire or ability to express it.

what exactly were you looking for?

[Governess Dam]

An anti-slavery activist?

I guess that would make sense considering slavery is sort of the opposite of liberty. Doesn't really have anything to do with immigration though.

What am I looking for? Good grief, I have no idea. I guess I got the response I expected.

Sad!

[russell]

I guess that would make sense considering slavery is sort of the opposite of liberty.

damned straight.

Doesn't really have anything to do with immigration though.

the association with immigration came later.

is there a substantive point you want to make? about immigration, perhaps?

if you're just here to point out the the statue of liberty is not actually named the statue of immigration, you have achieved your goal. go in peace.

if you are interested in discussing immigration policy, or whatever, you're welcome to do so.

[sapient]

Doesn't really have anything to do with immigration though.

As someone whose grandparents were immigrants, I feel that there's a strong association between the Statue of Liberty and the idea that one of America's ideals is to welcome people from dictatorships and totalitarian countries who are "yearning to breathe free". I am an American exceptionalist in that this ideal was something I was brought up to embrace.

Certainly, other countries welcome immigrants. At this moment, there are plenty of places doing a much better job of it than we are. So my version of "American exceptionalism" doesn't involve running around with a MAGA hat on, or bragging about various policies I don't believe in. My version is that we have the idea that "Americans is an immigrant nation" as a founding principal. I'm not alone in embracing that aspiration, but it used to be a more bipartisan view of things. Many Republicans seemed to have lost interest in the "beacon" aspect of American creation mythology altogether. Unfortunate, IMO, but my values aren't universal, so perhaps they're worthless.

[sapient]

Forgive the usual failure to edit. Oops.

[Governess Dam]

if you're just here to point out the the statue of liberty is not actually named the statue of immigration, you have achieved your goal

That was the main point I wanted to make. Not just the name, but the reason for the statue in the first place, but whatever.

More generally, it seems even the concept of liberty has become out of fashion over the years, and I don't like that. I think liberty is important.

Immigration?

I guess there's 3 ways you can look at the thing.

Number one, are some countries really horrible places to live? We've heard the liberals a few months ago saying that Haiti was in such bad shape due to a disaster almost a decade ago that it would be inhumane to ask the "temporary" refugees to return.

So yeah, some countries are really horrible places to live.

Then there's the question of whether a politician should use a vulgar term to refer to a really horrible place to live. I will let Joe "Big Something Deal" Biden take that question. He will lecture me on how politicians should talk and the words they can and can't use.

The third and probably most interesting bit is whether the fact that a country is a really horrible place to live should influence the amount of immigrants we allow from that country.

I think if you are talking about targeted immigration, then it doesn't matter, but if you are talking about allowing refugee status to anyone in a country, it does.

[cleek]

So yeah, some countries are really horrible places to live.

and that is irrelevant to what makes Trump's comment so shitty.

[Governess Dam]

Got a transcript of his comments?

[cleek]

there are eyewitness reports and non-denial-denials, and cheerleading from dipshit MAGA racists who agree with the reported comment. that's more than enough.

troll smarter.

[Governess Dam]

What is wrong with you?

I'm not denying anything, before we discuss what he said, where's a transcript of what he said?

Jesus.

[russell]

Governess Dam - thanks for expanding on your earlier comments.

My thoughts:

Yes, some places are not such great places to live. Especially if the standard of comparison is a developed or "first world" country. Some places are poor, and/or have badly functioning governments.

I don't really care that Trump called African nations shitholes. I'm sure it's not the first, nor the last, time that African nations, or poorer or less developed nations generally, were or will be referred to using derogatory terms, including profanity. The issue for me is that the POTUS appears to consider *people from those places* to be less worthwhile candidates for moving here.

Whether a given country's development status, or the quality of its government or general quality of life, should be basis of letting people come here or not is an interesting one. What is our goal in allowing people to come here or not come here?

How many people can we absorb?
Do we want to prefer people who bring specific skill sets or experiences?
Do we want to prefer people who are "more like us" rather than less?

Historically, we've been all over the map, on all of these questions.

I would say that our experience admitting people who are, personally, poor, and/or who come from poor or less developed countries, has actually been excellent. Very much so, in fact. That probably describes the vast - really vast - majority of people who have emigrated here, ever.

I would also say that our experience admitting such people in large numbers has been, maybe not uniformly excellent, but on the whole pretty good.

As far as who is "like us" and who is "not like us", that's also been a moving target. First it was only English speaking people and the Germans were looked down on. Then it was only Protestants, and the Catholics and Jews were looked down on. Then (or sort of at the same time) it was only northern Europeans, and southern Europeans were looked down on.

We specifically excluded Chinese and Asians in general for quite a while, now we think they're great.

Pretty much everyone who has come has found a way to fit in, usually within a couple of generations. And part of that process has been that the broader culture has, itself, adjusted to absorb and accommodate them.

I see that as a good thing, and in fact one of the things that is truly unique about the United States. Many countries can actually be kind of hard to get into, and most require you to have a job in hand, or at least that you bring a lot of money with you. Historically we haven't required those things.

We could start, but IMO it will change the character of the nation, and not in good ways.

[cleek]

What is wrong with you?
I'm not denying anything, before we discuss what he said, where's a transcript of what he said?

we know what he said. quit playing dumb.

[cleek]

The issue for me is that the POTUS appears to consider *people from those places* to be less worthwhile candidates for moving here.

right.

and, in order to make sure we didn't miss his point (though many are still trying hard to miss it), he singled out what could literally be the whitest country on earth as the example of where we should be getting more people from.

[wj]

Then there's the question of whether a politician should use a vulgar term to refer to a really horrible place to live.

Once upon a time, there was a concept of "couth": at minimum, some good manners and behavior. It was expected from, among others, those leading our government. It seems to be rather out of favor in some circles. Not that they simply don't (or can't) execute; they seem to make an active virtue out of behaving badly. "Reverse snobbery" is putting it mildly.

(I can remember, in the late 1960s, when that was the view in some circles on the left. Today, as with a number of things, the right has taken it over.)

[Governess Dam]

Ask Joe Biden about couth.

He'll tell you all about it.

[Governess Dam]

Cleek, give me an honest answer, if forced to choose would you rather live in Haiti or Norway?

[wj]

Given the climate, and irrespective of the population, I'd prefer Norway. Hot and humid, whether it's Haiti, or Florida, or Singapore, is just not attractive. Not to mention that, if it's cold you can always add more clothing; but there is a necessary limit to how much you can take off -- once everything is gone, you're stuck.

[CharlesWT]

Past presidents have generally been able to speak softly, politely, or not at all while bombing tens of thousands of people into the ground.

[Governess Dam]

That's racist, wj.

[wj]

Climate preference is racist???

Even though I would also rather live in Norway than Italy, in Japan than Singapore, in Namibia than Nigeria. Each pair, be it noted, having populations which are largely of the same race.

You can see racist anywhere is you insist. Doesn't mean it's there.