Wherein I reveal too much about myself

by liberal japonicus

For the briefest of milliseconds, I thought of making the title of this post 'Sexual Harassment is NOT the problem'. There must be some sort of 'clickbait anon' group that can deal with this. However, that title is related to the topic, which is below the fold and which I hope doesn't step on Doc Science's post.

Below is a screenshot of the page I got when I clicked on Cleek's link about Roy Moore recycling a support letter without checking (I think 'forging' implies that there was enough intelligence to realize that it was wrong. I'm sure they thought that once for Moore, always for Moore and it never occurred to them that them might need to doublecheck)

But this is not about the apparently infinite supply of weapons grade stupidity coming out, this is about that google ad in the middle of the page. I (think) I know why it is there, I've been googling stuff about idols and j-pop and k-pop and trying to figure out some Japanese slang. The places where I'm looking tells Big G's algorithm that this is what I might be interested in.

When I was typing this and I wanted to look at a draft, I just accidentally hit the publish button, so for a brief moment, those 4 women (or perhaps it is just one), was one of my small contributions to the internet, which will probably be another thumb on the scale of what kind of google ads I get.

There's a rant here about data and algorithms and a lecture about how I should be doing anonymous browsing. But what I wanted to point out is that sexual harassment is school of fish that swim a sea of sexual objectification and sexual gratification. We can reduce them, catch big ones and put them on display, but those fish only exist because there is all that goddamn water.

In the previous post, bob mcmanus points out the class divisions in the reporting of sexual harassment. While it is not just white hollywood actresses, as cleek points out, the aspect of class running thru this gives me pause. Of course, Roy Moore wouldn't be chasing people who couldn't afford to shop at the mall, but I don't want to suggest that if we eliminate problems with class, we will have addressed harassment (and I don't think bob mcmanus is doing that either) However, if we could somehow either eliminate sexual objectification, or make everyone think 'sex-positive' (another google search that is probably going to have ramifications), maybe it would be easier to deal with sexual harassment? But how? I have no idea.

I'm still not sure about this, but I wonder what the commentariat thinks.

Comments

[bob mcmanus]

but I don't want to suggest that if we eliminate problems with class, we will have addressed harassment (and I don't think bob mcmanus is doing that either)

Well, for now, might I note that the feminist solution to Weinsteinism also has a class solution, in their case the diversification of class hierarchies IOW, more women with wealth and power.

if we could somehow either eliminate sexual objectification, or make everyone think 'sex-positive'

Oh this is a mess.

Somedays I am "sex-positive" (and sex worker protective or whatever) if it is one woman in the pictures she has the right to make a living as she likes and express herself in her fashion. But there will be casualties of competition in an environment of patriarchy and oppression and what a mess.

Other days I am sex negative, everybody put on their unisex Mao pyjamas and no sex at all. Which won't eliminate all harassment but might help. And won't happen. Cause it's a mess.

[Countme-a Demon]

Yup, it's a mess.

Besides, it's America.

We have our thoughts and prayers over bloody preventable carnage, AND we likes our unisex Mao pajamas in the edible, see-through fashion design.

[bob mcmanus]

I'm commenting too much.

For the record,, just because I quote Barbara Ehrenreich doesn't mean I agree with everything she says. I read multiple perspectives.

In particular I am well aware that the current powerful wealthy actresses registering complaints were not necessarily or even probably rich and powerful at the time of the offense. I would have to think hard to discern class-based differences between an aspiring beginning actress and a Wal-mart checker. The checker might make more money.

My problem is obviously with the proposed solution, retaining the class hierarchies while diversifying the positions of money and power, or replacing white men with women and PoCs en masse.

This may indeed have very positive effects on sexism and racism, maybe, and in this sense is hard to resist and argue against.

But I believe, with evidence from the last thirty years, with more evidence available on request*, that it will make class distinctions and economic inequality even harder to address, even intractable and permanent.

*The black 1%, the richest blacks did very very well during the Obama administration while the vast majority of blacks were economically devastated. Matt Bruenig at Jacobin pored over the stats.

[wonkie]

I think a lot of human behavior can be understood if we think of humans as mammals, rather than through the self-glorification of homo sapiens. It is very common in mammals for sex and power to be mixed together. It is very come for ritualized sex to be used to establish hierarchy.

So I dont see harassment as an extension of the very human tendency of humans of both genders to notice someone appealing in their vicinity. That's sex, just sex, and most of us, like Jimmy carter, are guilty, but most of us also keep that appreciation under wraps out of respect and love for our own partners.

Sexual harassmsnt is different from noticing and appreciating teh sexaul appeal perceved in another person. Sexual harassment is about power and intimidation. It is he equivalent fo the higher ranking wold who mounts a lower one for ritualized imitation of intercourse.

I think it is link to authoritarian personality types, though I dont konw of any studies on this. one of the features of sexual harassment is heirarchy: the harasser has the power to make the other person miserable in a situation where they are thrown together and cannot separate without harm to the victim, usually a job.

There is another kind of harassment that happens between peers, usually as a group behavior. The established group harasses the newcomer. This too is related to power and hierarchy, though and I;d bet money that the group has a leader who is an authoritarian personality type!

In other words sexual harassment is a type of bullying. I think it arises from that primitive instinctive behavior which is part of being human.

Which is not to excuse it. I just see it as an evolutionary thing Harassers are people who are not as evolved as non-harassers. They are more primitive.

Just speculating, of course. .

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Google knows too much about me, too.

They keep putting up ads for IGBTs and pesticides.

It's very annoying, and NO, those are not "two great tastes that go great together"

[bobbyp]

But I believe, with evidence from the last thirty years, with more evidence available on request*, that it will make class distinctions and economic inequality even harder to address, even intractable and permanent.

The Force has been disrupted. There is a tear in the fabric of dialectical materialism, and the falling rate of profit is imperiled.

Keep on truckin', bob.

[bob mcmanus]

PS:Because I did some window shopping, the online ads that have been hounding me for weeks, forcing out other ads, are for Klipsch speakers and luxury watches, Patek Phillippe and Rolex. Neither of which I can really afford. There is probably a lesson here, a method available. High margin commodities can afford to be pushier and more persistent.

[Tony P.]

High margin commodities can afford to be pushier and more persistent.

"High-margin commodities" sounds like an oxymoron to my capitalism-infected ear, but let that pass.

What makes a "commodity" a "high-margin" product? Advertising, that's what. How can the makers afford to advertise? "High margins", of course.

When we buy a "prestige" car, for example, we're paying for the ads that tell our friends and neighbors to envy us for owning it. Mark Twain nailed it long ago: "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied."

--TP

[wj]

There is another kind of harassment that happens between peers, usually as a group behavior. The established group harasses the newcomer. This too is related to power and hierarchy, though and I;d bet money that the group has a leader who is an authoritarian personality type!

This has long been (one of!) my major peeves about college fraternities. As far as I could ever tell, ALL of them engage in this kind of behavior. (Do sororities engage in the same kind of hazing?) And they are a significantly out-sized source of our political (and business) elites -- all those networking connections, you know.

I wonder to what extent that experience in their formative years establishes in the frat boys minds their right to behave the same way throughout their adult lives. It might be interesting to do a study on frat membership vs harassment behavior....

[hairshirthedonist]

*The black 1%, the richest blacks did very very well during the Obama administration while the vast majority of blacks were economically devastated. Matt Bruenig at Jacobin pored over the stats.

This would be worthy of its own post.

[hairshirthedonist]

I wonder to what extent that experience in their formative years establishes in the frat boys minds their right to behave the same way throughout their adult lives. It might be interesting to do a study on frat membership vs harassment behavior....

I was in a fraternity. It was a somewhat atypical fraternity, but not so atypical that the dynamic you describe didn't exist. What I learned from it was as much how not to be as anything else. But I may be somewhat atypical in that regard.

[sapient]

More about mammals.

[Pollo de muerte]

I would post a response, but as a newcomer, I've been feeling harassed by the established group.

If I could only verify the real identity of the authoritarian personality type leader and take him out.

[Countme-a Demon]

Well, chickens and mammals are related via their shared reptilian brain stems.

[liberal japonicus]

Oh this is a mess.

probably a better statement of the situation. Getting everyone to be sex-negative might be good, but sex-negative generally means a lot of repression, at least in my experience, which is another log on the fire of me revealing to much...

[bobbyp]

"High-margin commodities"

AKA products provided under conditions of supplier monopoly or oligopoly...actually many more products than most are aware of.

Hey. True story.

[bob mcmanus]

Dudes, I didn't have my Marxist hat on. I was just talking about expensive shit with limited customer base that competed for internet ad space with prn sites and viagra ads. And tentatively wondering if it could be an effective strategy for more managing cookie monsters.

Klipsch and Patek Phillippe (1 P?) I don't think are monopolies or oligopolies; there is tons of competition in markets for $10000 speakers and $20,000 watches, not to speak of mass market brands. In both cases there is also a large aftermarket of pre-owneds. They are not quite on the level of Lamborghinis, penthouses and private islands.

I also use the word commodity radically broadly, to where some might say it loses utility. But I say it gains utility. My interest in anime is a commodity as something that can get tranched by google and sold to Netflix. Anything that can be quantified and priced.

[bob mcmanus]

OT, but I'll try to be brief. I know a lot of people read that...place...LGM

Trump and Russia etc

There are at least two sides to the global kleptocracy, warming up to hotter cold war

US-Europe-Saudi Arabia-Ukraine-Israel-Jordan

versus

Russia-Iran-Qatar-Syria-Iraq-Hezbollah-Novorussia

with India, China, and Japan East Asia ambiguous and under pressure

Any article that condemns one side without condemning the other is recruiting you to their army.

[liberal japonicus]

Putting this in my post, but it is a bleg, anyone here familiar with Wikipedia editing procedures/etiquette and user profiles? I'm curious if there are any ways to verify that there was or was not an account, when someone leaves, is there no trace of that user? If anyone can contact me off list (at libjpn at gmail)