“Puerto Rico, Our Next State….”

by wj

I remember, way back when I was in high school, watching the Republican National Convention on TV. As they did the Roll Call of the States, to nominate their Presidential candidate, they came eventually to Puerto Rico. Like every other delegation, the island’s spokesman included a local color catch phrase when announcing their votes. In this case, Puerto Rico was characterized as “our next state.” That was over half a century ago.

Puerto Rico has held a referendum on its status several times over the years – independence, statehood, or remain a territory. Before today, every time the vote was to remain a territory, and it wasn’t particularly close. But today was different. Thanks, in part to a boycott of those opposed and in part to the mess the territory's finances are in. A substantially majority of the voters (in, admittedly, a small turnout) voted for statehood. And thus the dream of those favoring statehood may finally be realized. Or not.

Statehood for Puerto Rico has been the official position, indeed the enthusiasm, of the local Republican Party since those at least those conventions back in the early 1960s. And still is. But here’s a thought exercise for you. The Puerto Rico territorial government, lead by the Republican Party, comes to Congress to petition for statehood. In the Congress, as we all know, Republicans have a majority. So that should be a slam-dunk, right? Boycott and low turnout or not.

But somehow it’s hard to see a party which spends a lot of time and effort demonizing Hispanics** voting to admit a state full of Hispanics. Their assumption (not necessarily correct, but I can’t see them looking past it) is that a Hispanic population would elect all Democrats to Congress, thus working against them. Even though it is the Republican Party which is pushing statehood . . . and which won the referendum.

I find myself with two questions. When will Puerto Rico become a state? (If ever.) And why would someone decide to boycott a referendum like this? I just can't follow the logic.

** Yeah, yeah, I know. They only oppose illegal immigrants. And if you believe that their base embraces that parsing, I have this bridge….

Comments

[JanieM]

And why would someone decide to boycott a referendum like this? I just can't follow the logic.

I have not been following this, but was it a coordinated effort to boycott? Or just involving individuals saying that's what they were doing? If coordinated, could the intention be that a low turnout could, after the fact, be pointed to as evidence of lack of a mandate?

[Ugh]

It was coordinated boycott.

I don't think the GOP cares about much of anything other than their own political power. If something threatens that then perhaps they will change, but right now they seem to think they are impervious, or at least impervious until the 2018 mid-terms and if they lose their majority in either house...wow will there be a hell of a lame duck session.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

.wow will there be a hell of a lame duck session.

how could there be? clearly, well-established precedent says that lawmakers who will not be returning in the next session are not permitted to do anything consequential.

i believe this is called The McConnell Rule.

[bobbyp]

Hey, a vote is a vote. They really should become a state. After all, they are citizens.

Similarly for D.C.

[CharlesWT]

Statehood won't solve Puerto Rico's problems. But will provide another sinkhole for federal tax dollars.

[wj]

How would statehood cause more Federal money to be spent there?

[bobbyp]

How would statehood cause more Federal money to be spent there?

Think SocSec Disability, Obamacare, and Food Stamps....and defending an island full of poor brown people!!! Remember what happened with Hawaii joined the union? Samo', samo'.

Why, the possibilities for fiscal disaster are well neigh endlss, wj! How could you have missed them?

[wj]

Except that, as American citizens who pay into Social Security already, that SocSec disability is already going there. Etc., etc. But I suppose that those who don't realize that Puerto Ricans are American citizens (natural born ones, i.e. eligible to become President, too!) can be forgiven for not realizing those subtle details.

What I remember from when Hawaii joined the union is that early on one Senator was a Democrat and one was a Republican. (No more, but that was what happened at the time.) Wonder if that made a difference...?

[CharlesWT]

Puerto Rico has a lot of debt and its infrastructure is in a really bad shape. If they became a state, a lot of federal dollars would likely be spent on just those two things.

[bobbyp]

Except that, as American citizens who pay into Social Security already, that SocSec disability is already going there.

You sure?

[wj]

Thanks, Bobby. I stand corrected.

[Hartmut]

CharlesWT, are you sure that does not also describe parts of the continental US?
One could argue though that that would be a reasonable reason, since one should not add yet another bottomless sinkhole to the pile (piling up holes is bad enough languagewise)

Btw, until Erdogan went megalomaniac I was inclined to propose to kick Greece out of the EU replacing it with Turkey (but I also favor the idea of moving Israel to Cyprus, Palestinans to Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and then to let the Chinese nuke the Holy Land out of existence above sea level. Cypriots would be sent to mainland Greece/Turkey).

[Countme-In]

Puerto Rico can become a made man if dey say and do da right tings to da right people:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/06/trump-leads-televised-praise-session-for-himself/

Each Cabinet member and the VP had to smooch that little space between underside of their Lord's testicles and HIS arsehole.

But if loyalty is not demonstrated by Puerto Rico and America, well den, a little gasoline, maybe a trown match, both inna right places at accidentally the same exact time and we'll jus collect the insurance money oveh heah. Jus sayin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d6NhUjgjes

trump will fire Mueller.

The killing of the republican party must begin soon.

Fuck them. Create a burning, savage Hell on Earth for every republican in this country.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

How many Trump-supporting top GOPers can you fit in the Burning Man?

AFAF

[Jim Parish]

When Hawaii was admitted, it was expected to be a Republican state, counterbalancing the new Democratic stronghold of Alaska. I kid you not.

[Tony P.]

Charles: If they became a state, a lot of federal dollars would likely be spent on just those two things.

Who do you think "infrastructure spending" is paid to? If Dear Leader wants to tout his deal-making prowess to "create jobs" by spending on "infrastructure", He must be thinking (for want of a better word) of paying American companies to hire American workers to rebuild roads, bridges, airports, and so on.

Whether He, Trump is merely trying to privatize America's infrastructure under the guise of "public-private partnerships" is a question for another day.

--TP

[Countme-In]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/friend-says-trump-weighs-firing-special-counsel-mueller-2017-06-12?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

These vermin should have been butchered a long fucking time ago.

Remember cocksucker Ruddy?

[Old bobby]

I kid you not.

Ernest Gruening!

[Countme-In]

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a55590/trump-cabinet-meeting-north-korea/

Afterwards, trump rolled up his sleeves and finger f*cked all of the p*ssies in the room, including that cowering c*nt Mattis.

[Countme-In]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/megyn-kelly-says-important-shine-light-alex-jones-213613065.html

If Kelly was a real patriotic journalist, her first question to Jones would have been, as she pointed a weapon at him, "Alex, would you like this bullet in the brain or in the testicles?", and then fired two shots when he hemmed and hawed.

Unfortunately, it will now be left to true professional armed patriots to clean up the Alex Jones mess and then get his viewer, listener, and vitamin supplement and erectile dysfunction subscriber lists and proceed apace with the overdue and necessary patriotic violence, the kind beloved by the Founders and Lincoln, coming to and deserved by millions in this country.

[Countme-In]

Regarding the Elvis/Jonestown/Babylonian Cabinet meat up, the LA porn industry is on the phone trying to hire away the professional fluffers in the room.

The Bissell vacuum cleaner company wants to hire away the guy who engineered the impressive sucking that went down in that room. Unfortunately, his plate AND mouth are full at the moment.

Plus loyalty.

It's a wonder the lot of them didn't hum their Cabinet agendas from UNDER the table with identical "Hmmmmdaddy" voiceovers.

[russell]

count, please. enough already with the 'kill them' talk.

[Countme-In]

Every time a republican opens his or her mouth, it's "kill them" talk.

[liberal japonicus]

Anyone remember this?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/21/525050208/hawaii-tells-jeff-sessions-have-some-respect

[wj]

I remember thinking at the time that Sessions had been, for him, rather less bigoted than one might expect. Which is, unfortunately, not saying much; but true nonetheless.

[Countme-In]

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/are-we-nearing-civil-war/

[Countme-In]

What are HE and those who pledged Saddam-like personal fealty to carrying out HIS orders planning:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-says-travel-ban-ruling-comes-dangerous-time-114204599--politics.html

[russell]

from the count's link:

We are approaching something of a civil war where the capital city seeks the overthrow of the sovereign and its own restoration.

as soon as I read this, I knew it was buchanan. if you're looking for fascists in the USA, he is your guy. if there ever is a civil war, he'll be one of the instigators. the man is a thug.

US civics 101: the POTUS is not a sovereign.

and the rest of his errors flow from there.

Nixon's crew are the freaking brain-eating undead of American political life. his bitter curdled spirit haunts the nation like a restless hungry ghost.

if digging him up and driving a stake through his decayed and wizened heart would fix things, I'd be all for it. unfortunately, he was just a reflection of crap that is baked into the soul of the nation.

the fault ain't in the stars, as they say.

there's nothing Buchanan would like better than to see things get violent. the man has been jonesing to beat up hippies for the last 50 years.

talk like a thug, act like a thug, you're a thug. he's a thug.

[Marty]

"there's nothing Buchanan would like better than to see things get violent. the man has been jonesing to beat up hippies for the last 50 years."

Except everything else in the article is true. And actually not a single call for violence in the whole thing. In fact, a pretty solid recommendation to use the legal tools available and the bully pulpit. Or did I read a completely different article than you?

Those hateful administration people:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/11/john-kelly-dhs-secretary-suggests-dreamer-amnesty/

[bobbyp]

Except everything else in the article is true.

Hahahahaha! Buchanan's hallucinatory references to the "deep state" match exactly the wrong headed political paranoia of some of my more lefty aquaintances.

Glenn Greenwald and Pat Buchanan, bosom buddies! Who coulda' known?

"Time to burn down the Bastille," claims Pat.

Heh. If only.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

Except everything else in the article is true.

oh, totally.

Comey’s deceit was designed to enlist the police powers of the state to bring down his president.

that's totally true.

The leak of Gen. Michael Flynn’s conversation with the Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak, after Obama imposed sanctions on Russia for the hacking of the DNC, may have been a product of the unmasking operation. The media hit on Flynn cost him the National Security Council post.

and Pat knows that the leak is the real issue. the fact that basically everyone in the Trump campaign has lied about their Russia contacts? bygones.

your party is morally bankrupt.

[john (not mccain)]

"enough already with the 'kill them' talk."

How many of us do they have to kill before it's okay to talk about killing them? 100? 1,000? If it's just one or two of us killed at a time, as in Portland, is it unfair to consider those as part of the total, or do we get to play by "Muslim terrorist" rules?

[russell]

Or did I read a completely different article than you?

Maybe you read an article by a completely different guy.

And, to the point of the article in question, POTUS is not a sovereign. The entire structure and intent of the US government and its institutions is based on the idea that nobody in government is sovereign.

It's either profoundly ignorant, wrong-headed, or ill-intentioned to characterize the office or POTUS as a sovereign. I'll leave it to the reader to decide which applies to Buchanan.

If Trump is finding resistance, then things are working the way they should.

[russell]

How many of us do they have to kill before it's okay to talk about killing them?

Talk about it all you want.

Please don't talk about it here.

Thanks.

[Countme-In]

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a55603/russia-hack-voting-totals/

[russell]

And actually not a single call for violence in the whole thing.

He should campaign against the real enemies of America First by promising to purge the deep state and flog its media collaborators.

Time to burn down the Bastille.

Metaphorically, of course.

[Countme-In]

"Or did I read a completely different article than you?"

I was thinking this morning about the couple of Ferdinand Marcos press conferences I covered for the Public Info Office of one branch of the Philippine Department of Agriculture back in his heyday. A bunch of his Cabinet officers were on hand to offer a hagiography (a very Filipino tradition in the presence of the tribal elders) in the form of warm tongue baths to their revered and, believe me, ruthless and feared leader as martial law reigned* around us and most of the luxury women's footwear in the world found their way into Imelda's 1000 square foot closet.

Years later, after I returned to the States, when his regime fell, I caught a photo in the press of about a dozen of his loyalists, which included the Secretary of Agriculture whom I worked for, gathered around Marcos during his final siege week at Malacanang Palace.

Anyway, I tried to find that photo this morning, to no avail, but I found this:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVvhb_T9Z1U8AFZUnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=Marcos+Cabinet+Loyalists+at+the+End&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

You see cabinetry. I see the vanquishing of a despot.

So yes, a completely different article. Same words, in the same order, read from opposite poles.

*He instituted draconian gun confiscation laws which caused the incredible murder rate to plunge and so folks in Manila and Davao City weren't kept awake at night by the small arms fire every live long night. Filipinos mostly just hid their weapons, but still death rates plunged.

______

Pat Buchanan is a creature of Washington D.C., born and raised there, of all places. His forebears were confederate insurrectionists, of which he is proud. His brandishing of violent rhetoric has made his career, so spare me the innocence. Even Moe Lane, that dumb suit, knew this when he, assuming the authority for himself, personally banned Buchanan from the republican party years ago at one or another of the Tacitus/Redstate bullshit artist havens.

Buchanan is on the ascendancy, whereas Lane had cut and run, as the twit loved to say of others at Redstate, and gone to ground.

Buchanan and his brothers, they have bragged, there are six of them, went to parties as teenagers and deliberately roughed up other guys, picking fights and then gang stomping the guys they egged on to fight. No doubt sister Bay was in the scrum eye gouging the enemy at the bottom of the pile.

See Buchanan, like all bullying sociopaths, like trump, like a relative of mine, needed early on for someone to step up and break every bone in their florid, sneering faces and then stomp their heads.

But no one did. So here we are.

Last year, I commented in a Rod Dreyer thread, where he decried violent rhetoric, and asked if his boss's, Pat Buchanan's "Lock and Load" mantras over the years qualified as rhetoric that required censoring as well, and my comment never made it past their cowardly little touchy-feelie, politically correct moderation standards.

Fuck them.

[Countme-In]

Martial law for healthcare:

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/6/13/1671416/-McConnell-takes-secret-Trumpcare-dealings-to-new-unimaginable-low

[Countme-In]

A republican speaks:

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/6/13/1671345/-Rick-Wilson-Unleashes-A-Fire-And-Brimstone-Tweetstorm-Against-His-Authoritarian-Republican-Party

too fucking late.

[bobbyp]

Metaphorically, of course.

snicker.

[Michael Cain]

Questions asked from ignorance... Are there currently problems due to Puerto Rico's constitution and laws being written in Spanish but the Federal Court for the District of Puerto Rico operating in English? I'm curious, since my time as a state legislative staffer gave me a much greater appreciation for case law and how often the outcome depends on assigning specific meanings to words or even punctuation. Is it likely that Congress, who must approve the state constitution if Puerto Rico were to become a state, would approve a non-English constitution?

[Snarki, child of Loki]

MC: not only THAT, but PR is completely metric.

Buy yer gas in $/liter. Simply unamerican, amirite?

[wj]

Of course, the official US standard is metric, too. Has been for decades. (Not that anybody pays much attention. But it is the law of the land.)

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

in my 46 years, i've seen one metric road sign in the US. it was east of Syracuse on I90.

[Countme-In]

"Or did I read a completely different article than you?"

We read the same article about the Montana Congressman beating the shit out of the reporter, and you approved of the violence.

[bobbyp]

in my 46 years, i've seen one metric road sign in the US. it was east of Syracuse on I90.

In my state (Washington) they tend to congregate suspiciously near the Canadian border.

[CJColucci]

I want to give credit where it is due. I have borrowed something someone here (I have a vague recollection that it might be russell) said a few years back.The context was a discussion of the proper role of government (and perhaps how uninteresting a question that is) and the example given was a hypothetical government program to have someone pick up your dry-cleaning for you. It might be silly, but if people are willing to pay for it, there was no objection in principle based on some theory of the proper role of government.
Does anyone know who should get the credit for this? I'd like to be able to acknowledge it when I use the example again.

[russell]

That sounds like it might have been Tony P

[JanieM]

That sounds like it might have been Tony P

You took the words right out of my mouth!

[I thought I posted this but it seems not. Or else it will be double. Anyhow, great minds think alike and all that. :-)]

[Tony P.]

Although Tony P. loves concrete examples as litmus tests of general principles, Tony P. cannot recall using the pick-up-your-dry-cleaning gag. It must have been some smarter guy (or gal -- Hilzoy, maybe?) that did it.

The problem with trying to get people (ok, "conservatives") to explicate their supposed principles in the context of a specific example is the same as the problem of arguing with a merchant who concedes that he makes a loss on every particular sale but insists that he makes it up in volume. You can present, to a "conservative", a scenario whereby higher marginal tax rates on large personal incomes can lead to more "job creation", but fat lot of good it will do you in the face of Supply-Side-Jesus dogma.

Speaking of Al Franken, I'd hire him for POTUS in a heartbeat. If we both survive the He, Trump regime, I mean.

--TP

[Marty]

"We read the same article about the Montana Congressman beating the shit out of the reporter, and you approved of the violence."

Yes, that was a shame. If the reporter had shot the Congressman you would have applauded and called for more. But somehow me wanting to hold the reporter accountable for his actions when some guy grabs him and breaks his glasses is condoning violence?

Square that f'ing circle. I dont want any lectures on violence from you, and now your not writing edgy prose anymore, you are openly advocating killing people and sapient is defending the idea with WWII references.

The dangerous people here ain't me.

[liberal japonicus]

If the reporter had shot the Congressman you would have applauded and called for more.

depends. would he be standing his ground?

Seriously, getting the vapors over the count? He's been asked to pipe down, if he keeps doing it, we'll step in. But just because his 11:53 and 3:22 hurt your feelings, don't think that is going to be included in the calculation.

[Marty]

lj, My feelings arent hurt, nor did I ask for your intervention. I think I made my point directly with him just fine.

[liberal japonicus]

ok, fair enough

[Countme-In]

"But somehow me wanting to hold the reporter accountable for his actions when some guy grabs him and breaks his glasses is condoning violence?"

That's an amazing formulation. Woody Allen did it funnier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fniTZP_4V1M

But as events unfold today, I might find a way to use it too.

[Countme-In]

"But somehow me wanting to hold the reporter accountable for his actions when some guy grabs him and breaks his glasses is condoning violence?"

That's an amazing formulation. Woody Allen did it funnier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fniTZP_4V1M

But as events unfold today, I might find a way to use it too.

[Ugh]

My knuckles were viciously attacked by his face, over and over. I was terrified and didn't know what to do. Now look at my knuckles, all bruised and sore. They may never be the same.

[wesley olmsted]

not sure how to get this posted. Andrewolmsted.com is now active. It was down for a while but is ok now. wes

[Ugh]

I tried to run but his face was so fast, so fast...

[CharlesWT]

Well...

GOP Lawmakers Attacked in Shooting at Virginia Baseball Practice: A gunman opened fire on a practice game outside of Washington, D.C., this morning.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

hold the reporter accountable for his actions

please, list "his actions".

[sapient]

Notes on the "hysterical" Kamala Harris.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"A gunman opened fire on a practice game outside of Washington, D.C., this morning."

Lots of shots fired, seems to be only one (not fatal, nor even critical) injury.

If the shooter spouts off about how the "Democrat party" put him up to it, can we call it a False Flag?

[CharlesWT]

If the shooter spouts off about how the "Democrat party" put him up to it, can we call it a False Flag?

Hmmm...

[sapient]

Hmmm....

[Ugh]

Someone needs to ask Rand Paul about that tweet, today.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

well, this sucks:

Hodgkinson was vociferous on social media about his dislike for Donald Trump and reportedly volunteered on political campaigns for Bernie Sanders.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/baseball-shooting-james-t-hodgkinson-gunman-opened-fire-congressional/

[sapient]

Also, he had a history of violence against women.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

conservatives are not coming across well in his FB feed.

[wj]

Any word on why all these NRA supporters were not armed so they could defend themselves? I mean, that's the recurring theme for opposing any kind of gun control legislation. ...

[sapient]

Seems some other gun violence is happening.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

now's not the time to talk about guns

[Ugh]

No no no! 2nd Amendment remedies are for MY side of the aisle!

[russell]

Hodgkinson appears to have been a cranky old fool who decided the solution to the world's problems was to shoot up some (R) congresspeople.

It solved nothing, and now he's dead. More than solved nothing, if anything his actions will only complicate an already FUBAR situation.

The reason I periodically ask the count to dispense with the "kill them" talk is because the world contains a lot of people like Hodgkinson, and inflated rhetoric normalizes the voices in their heads to the point that they feel that acting on their impulses is warranted, or even necessary.

It's the same reason I have no regard for people who run around talking about "2nd Amendment solutions". It's irresponsible.

The times are fraught, for a number of reasons. But Obama was not a Kenyan commie Muslim come to take all our guns and freedoms away, and Trump and the (R)'s are not Nazi fascists come to institute the American Reich.

I have no regard for Trump, nor for nearly all of the (R)s holding national office. Trump is a crook and a liar, and has no concept or understanding of the responsibilities that attend to the office he holds. The (R) leadership IMO loves power above all else.

We have the institutions we need to deal with crooks, liars, and power-hungry weasels. They are not efficient, or expeditious, and that is by design, because efficient and expeditious instruments for managing national power offer opportunities for abuse.

They are deliberate, and painstaking, and time-consuming. And that is their virtue, because those things are what allow us to have confidence in their fairness.

There is no value to be had in violence, or talk of violence. At best, it is IMO self-indulgent. Which, in and of itself, is not a big deal.

But it also leads to BS like we see today, and like we've seen over and over in this country.

We're a violent people and we seem to always hold the option of violence in the back of our minds.

We need to put that aside.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

wrs

[sapient]

There is no value to be had in violence, or talk of violence. At best, it is IMO self-indulgent. Which, in and of itself, is not a big deal.

But it also leads to BS like we see today, and like we've seen over and over in this country.

We're a violent people and we seem to always hold the option of violence in the back of our minds.

We need to put that aside.

This part of wrs.

Trump and the (R)'s are not Nazi fascists come to institute the American Reich.

No, not the American Reich. But underestimating the violence and abusiveness of Republican policies is a mistake. Pretending that what ICE agents are currently doing is just "the other side of the aisle" is a mistake. What Republicans are doing with immigration, with health care, with the environment, - it is hurting and killing people in our communities. What they're doing with the truth is destroying the institutions we have to deal with our problems peacefully.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"Please, ONE SIDE of the political spectrum should completely stop with violent hateful rhetoric, then all will be peace and hugs and comity"

But it ain't the side that we're on.

[wj]

What Russell said.

[CharlesWT]

The reason I periodically ask the count to dispense with the "kill them" talk is because the world contains a lot of people like Hodgkinson, and inflated rhetoric normalizes the voices in their heads to the point that they feel that acting on their impulses is warranted, or even necessary.

Regardless of who or what influnces the voices in their heads, they're the only ones responciable for their actions.

[Marty]

wrs, and what CharlesWT said. That covers today.

[Girl from the North Country]

What russell said in every single particular.

[Ugh]

Foxnews.com headline reads shooter "believed to be Bernie volunteer"

Clearly the most important thing about the shooter's background.

[bob mcmanus]

Some kill with an ordered drone, some kill, and it will be tens of thousands who die and millions who will suffer, with a vote and a pen. The AHCA is an act of homicidal racist violence.

Those who support the rule of law, process, moderation, patience within tyrannies and cruel regimes are...while other less powerful or resourceful people are dying is an accessory. The very least one can do is give permission and moral support to the brave and self-sacrificing.

This is war, civil war, class war and race war and gynocide, and has been civil war for generations.

50 shots fired and a half dozen minor injuries?

We need more and better Democrats.

[russell]

Those who support the rule of law, process, moderation, patience within tyrannies and cruel regimes are...while other less powerful or resourceful people are dying is an accessory.

If I'm an accessory to (R) policies because I call for not shooting (R)'s in the street, then that is a cap I'm comfortable wearing.

I have no doubt that there is a time and a place for forcible resistance. The time and place IMO is when other options are not available.

Any calculus that assumes that violent resistance will inevitably yield a result that is better than what other options will bring is, IMO, faulty. At a minimum, the burden of proof is on folks who call for violence to explain how it will improve anyone's situation.

Shorter me: if your issue is that people are being hurt, shooting at people is not likely to improve things.

Regardless of who or what influnces the voices in their heads, they're the only ones responciable for their actions.

I think it's fair to say that Hodgkinson has been held responsible for his actions.

But underestimating the violence and abusiveness of Republican policies is a mistake

That is not a mistake I'm prone to making.

[bob mcmanus]

who call for violence to explain how it will improve anyone's situation.

That's easy. It will stop particular Republicans from murdering people. Enough of it will at least slow down Republican state-sponsored domestic terrorism.

The nice thing about liberalism and statism for liberals is that it not only widely spreads the responsibility, for both the murderers and those who cluck their tongues at murder and write a letter, but even bumps the responsibility up to a HIGHER POWER, the LAW, STATE, JUSTICE and transcendental RIGHTS (being transcendental they belong equally to everyone,even those using the LAW and the State to commit mass murder.)

C'mon, now, y'all know it isn't principle. The non-violent and lawful get to be all kind and righteous, while staying safely protected by the violent racist rapist state.

Cause that's the deal. You'll be okay if you don't get in the way.

[russell]

That's easy. It will stop particular Republicans from murdering people

What's the end game?

The non-violent and lawful get to be all kind and righteous

Unlike those who call for violence.

[wj]

It will stop particular Republicans from murdering people. Enough of it will at least slow down Republican state-sponsored domestic terrorism.

Almost certainly not. More likely, it will lead their constituents to elect someone who is of the same mind -- or worse. Even at a time when Democrats are increasingly likely to do well in Congressional races. Unless you are under the illusion that a comparative handful of Republicans, holding different views of others, are the entire root of the problem.

In short, it's shooting yourself in the foot. (A turn of phrase which seems particularly apropos.)

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

Those who support the rule of law, process, moderation, patience within tyrannies and cruel regimes are...while other less powerful or resourceful people are dying is an accessory.

i suppose you're out there all day long murdering your oppressors ?

[bobbyp]

Regardless of who or what influnces the voices in their heads, they're the only ones responciable for their actions spelling.

Fixed.;)

Clearly the most important thing about the shooter's background.

Well, when the victim is a Congressman? Did they do the same thing when Giffords was shot? I would not be surprised.

Violence is an option that is easily taken by The Sovereign. How does one think they got that attribute in the first place?

I'm with Russell for now.

[bob mcmanus]

For the record, I am not advocating any particular or immediates acts against anyone in particular, etc etc whatever the feebs and Sessions wants to hear.

Nor, more generally am I asking or expecting anything from anyone else.

What I refuse to do from my armchair is to condemn Hodgkinson, even implicitly or indirectly, who apparently at least in his mind, without from what I have heard with a personal grudge or claim, essentially and knowingly sacrificed his life for the sake of others.

The cheap thrills of such costless popular judgements seem to elude me.

[wj]

And the nut who shot up a church in South Carolina was, at least in his mind, sacrificing himself for others, too.

Somehow, I am not impressed by this line of reasoning.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

By all means, put a stop to the violence coming from Bernie-Bros and Crooked-Hillary-thralls.

Congratulations! You've solved 1% of the violence problem. What are you going to do for an encore?

[sapient]

I'm not sure, with our record of gun violence, why Republican lawmakers think they would be immune.

I'm against the random violence that occurred today, but ... can we agree that no one is immune?

[CharlesWT]

The violence today appears to be targeted.

But, no, no one is immune. But your odds of being a victim varies greatly depending on the place, time of day, time of year and other factors.

[sapient]

The violence today appears to be targeted.

What does that mean though? A "terrorist" targeted Pulse guests. Lanza targeted kids. (Or was that a hoax? - I wonder who is sending messages to the victims' families today asking for birth certificates and such.)

[sapient]

Oh, let's not forget about the "other" mass shooting today in San Francisco. That person may have been "targeting" coworkers. Or something. I mean, the target is the person at the other end of the gun.

[Pro Bono]

Is this a serious discussion about whether it might be a good idea to shoot people playing baseball?

It's almost always a bad idea to shoot people. Including this time.

And in a country where there are a lot of mad people with guns, it's a bad idea to say anything which sounds like you might condone shooting people.

[sapient]

By the way, some of us have ranted against "the rich". This guy's bugaboo was that.

"Hodgkinson left a trail of political rants against Republicans and the “super rich,” and he had adopted a photo of former presidential candidate Bernie Sanders as his Facebook cover image."

[sapient]

And in a country where there are a lot of mad people with guns, it's a bad idea to say anything which sounds like you might condone shooting people.

So what speech do you want to censor? I am against shooting people practicing baseball, if that's your point.

I'm also against shooting children. And then, people accusing their parents of making up their children's existence.

[sapient]

Pro Bono, is this a thread about ignoring the fact that mass shooters are domestic abusers? I sense that people are ignoring that since nobody has mentioned it but me.

It's all of a piece with ignoring that Kamala Harris was given a napkin in her mouth.