AHCA, Trump, Comey, Taxes, Twitter -GAH!

by Ugh

This is an open thread for all the nuttiness this week. New and Improved AHCA - now with more pre-existing conditions, bankruptcies and moral monstrosities.

Trump is trumpernating.

Comey is testifying.

Taxes are taxing - my call is no tax reform this year. Interesting note, if the budget window is 10 years, they can only do a two year temporary corporate rate cut under reconciliation because scoring says it increases the deficit outside that window. New to me! I just thought they could do a temp cut for 10 years and hope it sticks down the road, but no. Of course, they can open up the budget window to 10, 20, 30 or even 1,000 years (or 1,000 generations, like the Jedi). So who knows what sh1t the GOP will pull if they can ever get their sh1t together.

Also, I set up an account at the twitter and it is probably not a good thing but why not.  I will put the handle below the fold if anyone is interested (it sort of links back to here, hope that is okay with the other front pagers and I have not mentioned that I post here in the bio or a tweet).  

Oh, I forgot, potential rollback of LGBT protections via EO tomorrow. Feh.

Only 1300+ days of this to go!

My twitter handle: @UghObWi but be warned, very little enlightenment there...

Comments

[Ugh]

Marcy Wheeler thinks DOJ/FBI have already filed charges against wikileaks.

[wj]

Oops! Sorry for doubling up on posts like this.

[Ugh]

Don't worry about it. the more the merrier!

[bob mcmanus]

The thousand year budget window will be challenging for the CBO to score. That may even matter.

Speaking of budgets, I have read maybe five articles about Pelosi and Schumer tricksying Trump on the budget, getting all kinds of Dem goodies in there. What I haven't read is if this means that the Trump Budget will be passed mostly with Democratic votes, and what stuff is in there that the Democratic base would not like at all.

[CharlesWT]

I open a Twitter about a week ago. And I thought Facebook was a time waster...

[wj]

The "Trump budget" will have likely be something that shares a name with the recent proposal. But nothing more. Including having no substantive input from Trump (although, on second thought, it may share that with the one pager).

Not that this will keep Trump from proclaiming it a win. Possibly within hours of denouncing it, of course.

[Ugh]

bob - looks like the budget will be a bipartisan bill in both houses, but that the house freedom to die caucus will vote no.

[Nigel]

And a possible year's jail time for laughing at Jeff Sessions...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/03/us/code-pink-sessions-laughter-trial.html

[wj]

I am struggling, unsuccessfully, with the idea of laughing with Jeff Sessions. Just as an alternative, you understand.

But laughing at him? That would seem to require only a somewhat sardonic sense of humor.

[russell]

twitter's no good for me. i talk too much, 140 characters wont get it.

is it just me, or is trump asymptotically approaching background noise?

a guy can dream

[wj]

is trump asymptotically approaching background noise?

If so, expect ever more outrageous tweets (and behavior) in order to restore/demand attention. The one thing the man cannot stand is being ignored or otherwise considered unimportant.

[Tony P.]

Any bets on when, if ever, Chuck Schumer will openly declare that his political goal is to make He, Trump a one-term president?

Any bets on whether the American electorate contains enough stupid people to re-elect the Trump Family in 2020?

Any bets on whether the one thing will affect the other?

--TP

[Ugh]

House GOPers claim they have the votes on AHCA, will vote tomorrow.

[bob mcmanus]

bob - looks like the budget will be a bipartisan bill in both houses, but that the house freedom to die caucus will vote no.

Since 2008 and TARP I am very sensitive to the Democratic Congress or Dem majorities being the decisive votes for essentially Republican legislation (or moderate, or neoliberal) with covering sweeteners.

"But the budget cut x,y,and z! And only Democrats can be blamed."
"Do you want to defund Planned Parenthood you monster? We got great stuff in that budget"

As in a parliamentary system, although it doesn't always work that way, I would rather the ruling party have complete responsibility, and Democrats never ever be the majority of votes for a bill Trump signs. It is called being the opposition. Let the heavens fucking fall, it is on Repubs.

And I just don't trust the millionaires in Congress

[Areala]

I've spent years fighting for my right to be who I am, for my wife to be who she is, and for the two of us to be treated as human beings and not second-class citizens.

If Trump, Pence, or any other piece of shit thinks a simple executive order is going to make me sit down and shut up, they're in for one rude goddamn awakening (and I'm not apologizing for the language).

[Ugh]

VERIFIED: We will force you to carry your pregnancy to term so you can watch your child suffer a hideous death without healthcare. Pro Life!

[formerly known as cleek]

Any bets on whether the American electorate contains enough stupid people to re-elect the Trump Family in 2020?

easily.

[Ugh]

Agree with cleek, but they are also capable of making the right choice, as in 2008 & 12.

[formerly known as cleek]

It's worth reconsidering only because of a New York Times report from Tuesday that says Donald Trump's Northern Virginia Trump National Golf Club features a plaque between the 14th and 15th holes honoring a Civil War battle at that precise spot. The inscription, signed by Trump, reads:

“Many great American soldiers, both of the North and South, died at this spot. The casualties were so great that the water would turn red and thus became known as ‘The River of Blood.’ It is my great honor to have preserved this important section of the Potomac River!”

Nice sentiment, small problem: there apparently was no such battle.

The Times checked with various historians in the area who had trouble tying the site of Trump's course to any such event.

“No. Uh-uh. No way. Nothing like that ever happened there,” Richard Gillespie, the executive director of the Mosby Heritage Area Association, told the Times.

Gillespie went on to say the closest thing to what Trump was describing was a battle 11 miles up the river in 1861. “The River of Blood?” he said. “Nope, not there.”

Trump, who is a leading Republican candidate for President, questioned how historians could dispute the battle. "How would they know," he told the Times. "Were they there?"

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/details-details-donald-trump-has-plaque-at-his-golf-course-commemorating-civil-war-battle-that-never-happened

[Ugh]

I'm afraid to look so I'll ask, anyone with insight into the conservosphere internet know what they're saying about the AHCA repeal vote? Happy? Sad? Worried? Don't care?

[Countme-In]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4468908/China-urges-citizens-leave-North-Korea.html

Fewer Koreans will die in the nuclear war trump and North Korea are determined to carry out than Americans murdered by republican filth in the U.S. Homeland with their sadistic policies.

Kill.

[Hartmut]

I guess it was the battle where all the confederate soldiers were black volunteers and all the union soldiers were somehow involved in slave holding or trading. Thus it had to be written out of history by the Demo(c)rat Party (the only true racists ever in human history).

[formerly known as cleek]

i think this sums up the reactions at RedState:

Can't help but be a bit disappointed but at least it's something.

http://www.redstate.com/prevaila/2017/05/03/votes-speaker-majority-leader-claim-ahca-will-pass/

[Marty]

Ugh,

Once it's passed everyone will understand what a great thing it is....my small sample is ambivalent. They believe the Democrats and the media forced the bill to be rushed but that it is better than it was and the Senate could do it right.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Apparently the AHCA bill has to be passed so that people (like, Congressmen) can find out what's in it.

Didn't I hear something like that being one of the greatest "tyranny/abuse of power" EVARS?

Well, at least there has been months and months of public hearings and debate and amendment and OMB budget scoring on the AHCA bill, so if we didn't want to know "what is in it", it's our own damn lazy ass fault.

[Countme-In]

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/05/heres-what-republicans-are-voting-thursday

Cold-blooded murderers.

[Marty]

There is almost no "fact" in Drums list about the impacts. You know those things everyone cares so much about. It reduces premiums, it is unlikely to exclude anyone for a preexisting condition, it covers more people and is likely to be improved in the Senate.

[bobbyp]

There is almost no "fact" in Drums list about the impacts. I like the 'almost'. That's almost funny.

You know those things everyone cares so much about. Facts? Like a CBO score?

It reduces premiums, by reducing coverage.

it is unlikely to exclude anyone for a preexisting condition,
'unlikely'! Ha. Another funny.

it covers more people No, it will not.

and is likely to be improved in the Senate. where it will go to die.

[bobbyp]

They believe the Democrats and the media forced the bill to be rushed

How did they do that? Amazing!!!

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

it's great because it's a GOP bill. that's all you're going to learn from any "conservative".

[Snarki, child of Loki]

I, for one, approve of how the minority Democrats in the House and Senate have managed to hold a gun to the head of the Republicans, and FORCED them to rush though the AHCA.

Just pull the f'ing trigger, m'kay? At least it'll put a stop to the high-pitched whining.

[Marty]

" where it will go to die"

So all this thrashing about calling people murderers is simply a waste of time.

Ok, next subject.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

So "attempted murder" should never be prosecuted?

Good to know. I'm sure that Count is feeling better.

[wj]

They believe the Democrats and the media forced the bill to be rushed

What bobby said at 9:12 -- exactly, word for word, what I was going to write.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

How did they do that?

it's a little-known secret that the Dems have the incredible power to absorb the blame for whatever anyone else does.

[Girl from the North Country Country]

it's a little-known secret that the Dems have the incredible power to absorb the blame for whatever anyone else does.:

little known corollary to cleek's law.

[wj]

Ah, but do they absorb it? Or are them merely the default targets (and it could partly or largely bounce off)?

The answer is going to matter, if the AHCA makes it into law.

[Tony P.]

Truth matters, if only because it translates into money. Or maybe the other way around. Either way, Marty seems to believe that Republicans are out to save him money. The Truth will eventually be revealed by his bank account.

--TP

[Countme-In]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-repeal-bill-allots-8-billion-fix-200-billion-problem-160253810.html

[Snarki, child of Loki]

If AHCA passes, I'm counting on Marty to give us his accurate first-person account of dealing with the Death Panel.

Don't think it'll fall into the "tl;dr" pile, though.

[Countme-In]

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/05/due-negligence-by-bloggersrus.html

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

Chait on Count's Digby link:

They are rushing through a chamber of Congress a bill reorganizing one-fifth of the economy, without even cursory attempts to gauge its impact. Its budgetary impact is as yet unknown. The same is true of its social impact, though the broad strokes are clear enough: Millions of Americans will lose access to medical care, and tens of thousands of them will die, and Congress is understandably eager to hasten these results without knowing them more precisely. Their haste and secrecy are a way of distancing the House Republicans from the immorality of their actions.

GOP's new motto is apparently : "Ok, next subject."

[Marty]

No the GOP new motto is, anything we do will be described as killing people to protect some crappy Dem legacy dysfunctional POS. But something has to be done, so we'll do it.

Because we do precisely know that the ACA sucks, is coming apart at the seams and has to be replaced with something.

And its laughable that after months of complaining that it is taking so long now they are going too fast.

And, unlike the ACA, there is nothing secret or hidden about the legislation.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

But something has to be done, so we'll do it.

ah, good ol "something must be done; this is something; we must do it!"

you are lead by idiots.

[wj]

The ACA is coming apart at the seams (as opposed to the places where it just needs improvements) precisely because of the efforts to pass something like the AHCA. That's causing uncertainty about, among other things, just what the reimbursement rules will be next year -- and insurers are understandably wary of signing what is essentially a blank check.

[wj]

Well, the House has just voted to remove the exemption for themselves and their staffs from the AHCA. With bi-partisan support. Perhaps embarrassment can, after all, sometimes have a widespread impact.

[sapient]

Not sure why you're trying to explain reality to Marty. He's a true believer. They'll be throwing him out of his hospital bed and he'll still blame Obama.

[Marty]

You mean the reimbursements that, in the law, expired two years ago? Or the extensions of them to try to keep at least one crappy set of plans in every state? Because even with them costs are growing fast enough no insurers can break even selling decent insurance in the exchanges?

[Tony P.]

cleek,

Maybe Marty is being led by idiots. But let's not discount the possibility that he's being led by charlatans who know how to swindle idiots.

--TP

[Marty]

It's funny that it was exactly the logic used to pass the last health care bill by your idiots. This us something, lets print it and pass while we can. At least most conservatives I know want our idiots to try to make it better in the Senate.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

Many people who obtain health insurance through their employers—about half of the country—could be at risk of losing protections that limit out-of-pocket costs for catastrophic illnesses, due to a little-noticed provision of the House Republican health-care bill, health-policy experts say.

The provision, part of a last-minute amendment, lets states obtain waivers from certain Affordable Care Act insurance regulations. Insurers in states that obtain the waivers could be freed from a regulation mandating that they cover 10 particular types of health services, among them maternity care, prescription drugs, mental health treatment and hospitalization.

That could also affect plans offered by large employers, health analysts said.

...

Under the House bill, large employers could choose the benefit requirements from any state—including those that are allowed to lower their benchmarks under a waiver, health analysts said. By choosing a waiver state, employers looking to lower their costs could impose lifetime limits and eliminate the out-of-pocket cost cap from their plans under the GOP legislation.

so, as long as i'm a man who never requires any drugs, i'm all set.

buncha idiots. you should be ashamed of your party, Marty - not flailing around trying to defend every fncking thing they come up with.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/little-noted-provision-of-gop-health-bill-could-alter-employer-plans-1493890203

[wj]

At least most conservatives I know want our idiots to try to make it better in the Senate.

Well, now they get the chance.

But it does rather beg the question of why the conservatives in the House weren't willing (able?) to make it better.

[Tony P.]

So the charlatans won in the House. But those oh-so-moderate GOP Senators will "improve" the swindle somehow. Except Josh Marshall is right:

the Iron Law of Republican Politics. That is, the ‘GOP moderates’ will always cave.

As long as they can disguise tax cuts for the rich as cheaper insurance for the Martys of the world, the swindlers always have the edge.

--TP

[Marty]

Yeah, cleek, those are all assumptions about what might happen. Yet just yesterday the NYTimes had an article on how all those negative impacts are being exaggerated by the Democrats. Half, really? No not really.

When you admit that Obama care is failing and the individual insurances and cost containment aspects have failed, then we can compare the new to the old. Until then it's just the minority writing histrionic headlines.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

When you admit that Obama care is failing

it isn't.

it's being suffocated by your party of idiots.

[Marty]

wj, us that really a question? The House is the most fractured political body I've seen in my lifetime. The extremes on both sides have enough votes to block anything, the moderates on both sides are excoriated from both sides and are ensured a primary challenge while even in the Senate 65 of the 100 Senators have been there less than ten years and we have people complaining about needing term limits so we can throw more of the bums out.

When the majority of the majority get elected on a repeal and replace platform then something will get passed. But there are no surprises in the difficulty of making a really good solution.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

those are all assumptions about what might happen.

what this country really needs is a big load of "Let's roll the dice with a 20% of the economy and the health of everyone!!"

idiots.

delete your party

[bobbyp]

I expect the state government in Alabama shall shortly be sending out letters to all major employers offering to be "that state" where the insurance coverage death spiral hits ground zero:

SEND US MONEY AND WE WILL GUARANTEE YOUR STOCKHOLDERS LOWER HEALTH CARE COSTS!

GENEROUS DISCOUNTS TO EARLY ENROLLEES!

YOU CAN'T MISS OUT. SIGN UP TODAY!

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"Let's roll the dice with a 20% of the economy and the health of everyone!!"

Those kind of odds? Russian Roulette.

I guess Russian Roulette is a kind of health-care plan.

Just make sure you use the first bullets on GOPers. Why should they miss out on the fun?

[russell]

They believe the Democrats and the media forced the bill to be rushed but that it is better than it was and the Senate could do it right.

What does "do it right" look like?

Because even with them costs are growing fast enough no insurers can break even selling decent insurance in the exchanges?

The horrible truth we are all dancing around is that costs are growing fast enough that nobody can make money selling decent health insurance.

Full stop.

The (R) bill isn't going to change that. They're just going to shift costs to patients, mostly to those who can least afford it, and call it freedom.

Until then it's just the minority writing histrionic headlines.

Minority?

[bob mcmanus]

When Obama (and Dems in Congress) funded PPACA by the 3.8% tax on investment income for earners over $400k, he painted a big red target on the entire bill. He could have spread that tax out, as was done with SS and Medicare and Medicaid, but he was committed to no tax increases on earners under $250k, which is what 99% of Americans? ACA was doomed from day one, as soon as Repubs got control. I bet he knew this.

SS and Medicare and Medicaid are in somewhat better share, because they cover everybody, and because the taxes are spread out.

Yes, you can tax the hell out of the rich, but only if you tax the hell out of everybody, and then give back to the middle and upper middle in programs. You especially have to tax the hell out of the upper middle, so that they don't aspire to and support the rich.

In the good years, it wasn't just the 90% top rate, but the progressive graduations which were steep and hard, so that most people did not aspire to increase their income bu very much.

Anyway, yeah the Senate will pass something horrible, and Trump will sign something. People will die. The wrong people will die.

[hairshirthedonist]

In the good years, it wasn't just the 90% top rate, but the progressive graduations which were steep and hard, so that most people did not aspire to increase their income bu very much.

Which, of course, was bad. We all know all the best stuff happens when people with a lot of money try to get more of it. Otherwise, no one will do anything, nothing will happen, people won't have jobs, there won't be cool stuff to buy, and life will suck.

[JanieM]

They're just going to shift costs to patients, mostly to those who can least afford it, and call it freedom.

The people who can least afford it don't have any money to pay with.

So the rich will get more $ and the poor will get more illness and early death.

[wj]

Today's vote could actually turn out to be a boon to the Democrats. Most likely, it (or at least big parts of it; the ones required to get the Freedom Caucus on board) will die in the Senate; if anything comes back, the House won't be able to pass it.

Meanwhile, they have a ready-made club to smash Republican incumbents with in 2018. Especially when the CBO scoring comes out for what was just passed. Pelosi can't say so publicly, of course. But I would be surprised if, behind closed doors, the whole House Democratic leadership isn't celebrating what just ahppened.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

When Obama (and Dems in Congress) funded PPACA by the 3.8% tax on investment income for earners over $400k, signed the ACA he painted a big red target on the entire bill.

[bob mcmanus]

cleek at 3:50: we disagree. shrugs. This is probably "because Obama is a dem or black" argument.

SS, Medicare, Medicaid, threatened battered and bruised but still standing. Lesser Bush passed Medicare Part D in a Repub Congress.

If Obama/Pelosi had funded it with a couple points on payroll, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But Ryan can point to $1 trillion dollars over ten years right back in rich fucks pockets, and since it was so clear, the rich have been spending millions to get billions.

Oh well, praise the Party, I don't have to worry about Obama and Pelosi having health care.

[CharlesWT]

If you like the ACA, you're not going to like the AHCA. If you don't like the ACA, you're not going to like the AHCA either.

Are libertarians going to git some company as the people who are disappointed with just about everything that happens in Washington?

Politicians of all stripes love to pass laws that hide the true cost of everything so they can take the credit, but not the responsibility.

[bob mcmanus]

wj at 343: No idea. I didn't think they would get it outa the House, and I would be shocked either way with the Senate. But I agree with Josh Marshall about the Iron Law of Republicans.

Moderate Republicans always cave.

[cleek_with_a_fake_beard]

Oh well, praise the Party

like it or not, the US is a two party system. you're smart enough to figure out the rest.

[Hartmut]

The GOP also needs the Obamacare repeal as a cover for their farther reaching tax cuts (eh..fundamental overhaul of the Byzantine tax code). It is their standard claim that Obamacare is a huge drain on the tax revenue (not just unfairly punishing the job creators), so its repeal allows to give all that money back to the citizens it was stolen from (i.e. the ones who have the most to begin with). Plus Obamacare suffocated the economy, so its repeal will create a boom* not seen since at least the time of St.Ronnie, again allowing to lower taxes (thus boosting** the economy even more creating more revenue*** than before the cuts).

*it will go BOOM!
**it will bust
***for those whose taxes got cut

[Tony P.]

bob: If Obama/Pelosi had funded it with a couple points on payroll, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Are you serious? If you are, you are giving "white working class" voters too much credit and the charlatans too little.

But what do I know? Maybe it was Obama who gave the voters too much credit for an ability to handle cost/benefit analysis.

--TP

[CharlesWT]

Periodically, politicians have to revamp the tax code so they can start selling special interest carve-outs all over again.

[russell]

is likely to be improved in the Senate.

i'd say it's likely to be either scrapped and rewritten in the senate, or simply smothered in its crib.

the House (R)'s still get to say "we repealed Obamacare", so they win.

[sapient]

i'd say it's likely to be either scrapped and rewritten in the senate, or simply smothered in its crib.

They'll do whatever they think they can get away with.

[wj]

The bill to fund the government thru September, previously passed by the House, has now been passed by the Senate.

So, will Trump sign it? After all, the Democrats (and others) have noted how he got rolled on numerous points. And he HATES to have anyone suggest that he lost at anything.

[bobbyp]

wj,

Trump has already demonstrated, pretty much across the board, that he can be opened up like a cheap suitcase. He will do what Ryan and McConnell tell him to do.

Funding sources for Obamacare (ACA) can be found here. There area a lot more moving parts than just soaking the rich.

[bobbyp]

The moving parts are a lot of the nuts and bolts that the 'effing conservatives and their GOP lackeys were too 'effing lazy to read.....2,000 PAGES!!!! DID YOU HEAR THAT MARGE!!!!!!!!!! 2,000 PAGES, WHY IT'S AS IF THEY ARE REQUIRING ME TO READ PROUST!!! IN THE ORIGINAL FRENCH!!!! I'M JUST A DOWN HOME HE-MAN AW SHUCKS COUNTRY BOY (WHITE) CONGRESSMAN!!!! PASS THE SMELLING SALTS!!!! I FEEL FAINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wj]

Intelligent, or conscientious, Congressmen hire staffers to do grunt work. Like actually reading bills, and preparing a Cliff Notes version for the Congressman. But I suppose that, if you disrespect knowledge and competency, it could be challenging to find competent people who are willing to work for you.

[bobbyp]

Was the ACA passed in secret? I dunno'. I mean rambling around the halls of Congress lugging 2,000 pages in a wheelbarrows would most likely caused quite a stir. Surely, questions were asked.

So let's look at the history. What does history tell us? it tells us that Marty is repeating what is essentially a lie.

I sincerely hope Marty realizes his error and disavows repeating this slur in the future.

I'd recommend a re-education camp for him at Swathmore, but I hear they use a very arcane and convoluted form of English that I wouldn't force on my worst enemy.

[sapient]

awww bobbyp! Are you a Swat grad? I'm not, but dear friends and relations are grads of that school, and others thereabouts.

What a world (or a country, even) if we could all have that re-education. Or even have the education to land us there. We strivers should strive for the high school education that would allow Swarthmore to consider us, but the valorization of ignorance and lies is not a hopeful sign.

Lots of problems with universities and privilege too, of course - not denying it- and it's a whole different subject. But the "privilege" of appreciating truth is something I used to take for granted. Now I don't.

[sapient]

So, yes, I got diverted. bobbyp was calling out Marty for, basically, endorsing a lie.

We're all supposed to be nice, and accepting here. I get it, finally. Hope everyone has noticed my extreme blandness recently after my punishment period.

It's apparently fine to endorse lies, and those who do so are called out, but not excluded from the "civil discourse" that occurs here. It's fine that people endorse the takeover of our country by a foreign supported right-wing strongman. Bland acceptance, okayism. We welcome and greet the "Communist" racist misogynist with open arms, because we're perplexed by his incomprehensible musings.

I'm suggesting that my brand of rage, on behalf of enlightenment democracy, isn't really all that malevolent, even when directed at people
here. My resentment is showing?

Okay, back to meditating on the Pope's revolution of tenderness.

[bobbyp]

Are you a Swat grad?

Nope. State of Washington land grant university. (thank you creeping 1860's socialism!!)...you know, land that was stolen from Native Americans and then 'given' to the states to subsidize low cost higher education for (white) people-no white privilege here!...but I digress.

I was taking a tongue in cheek swipe at this The Onion video is simply gut busting funny.

Political combat can be difficult. There are many shades of disagreement. IMHO calling an assertion that has been repeatedly shot down as NOT TRUE a "lie" is fairly mild.

But I should be clear, I am not calling anybody a liar. I am claiming that a particular factual claim is a lie. Simply stating that it is not true is obviously not enough when the lie is repeated constantly.

The ACA was not passed in secret. There is no doubt about this. The historical record is clear.

[sapient]

But I should be clear, I am not calling anybody a liar.

Of course not. No one is to blame.

The historical record is clear.

Well, the historical record is in the hands of those who champion truth.

[Marty]

The contents of the ACA were a pretty well kept secret. You can read and quote history rewrites all you want. Pelosi and Obama commented on how people would like the bill once they got to see what's in it. They of course didnt, until the Den hate .machine kicked in to scare the shit out of people so any change assigned everyone but the rich to death.

We have had many successful policies built on states deciding what was best for their people. The assumption that states are going to choose to hurt their citizens, which is built in to every criticism, is ludicrous. If your state waives rules you are very much in a position to correct that. Here in MA I am not the least concerned about that possibility.

[sapient]

Haha. bobbyp and Marty can duke this out. I'll go back to living in my happy place.

[wonkie]

The contents of the ACA were never a secret.

The ACA was popular until the rightwing hate machine told lies about it. Then the R base who benefited from it liked it without realizing what it was that they liked (In Kentucky polling of Republican voters showed that they did not like the ACA but did like Kentucky care. This is the sort of behavior that gives R base voters a reputation for being stupid.)

One of the positives that has come out of the recent debate over the ACA is that many people learned about it, Repubican lies were debunked, and it became more popular.

Now the R's have made changes in it designed to benefit the insurance companies and to drive sick people off their insurance. Marty thinks that states will not decide to hurt their own citizens. perhaps not,but it sure reflects on the moral values of the Republicans i Congress that they voted to give states that option.

I think that Marty's understanding of the harmful nature of the options now given to states is implicit in his confidence that Democratic Mass won't choose to go with the Republican options.

[wj]

Marty thinks that states will not decide to hurt their own citizens

Which belief is supported by all those red states which accepted Medicaid expansion. Of course, then there are the ones which refused it, even though it cost them nothing. Hmmm....

[formerly known as cleek]

Pelosi and Obama commented on how people would like the bill once they got to see what's in it.

and now you're saying that's AOK?

so you were full of shit then, or now. which?

[Michael Cain]

Apparently Senate Republican leadership has said informally that there will be no Senate vote on the House bill. My suspicion is that they've chatted with the Senate Parliamentarian, gotten an opinion that a substantial number of things in the bill do not fit under the reconciliation rules, are unwilling to ignore her, and this is not the hill for which McConnell is willing to kill the filibuster.

My guess is that they'll start a new process, with lots of hearings, and the AMA, hospital associations, insurance industry and select states will get to make their case -- fix, don't replace -- and the whole thing will quietly die. Meanwhile, McConnell will move on to regressive tax reform, a subject much more to his liking.

[russell]

The assumption that states are going to choose to hurt their citizens, which is built in to every criticism, is ludicrous.

dream on little dreamer

Here in MA I am not the least concerned about that possibility.

gotta love a guy that bitches about blue state policies and takes comfort in the security they provide to him.

[Marty]

I didn't like it either time. I was just pointing out that complaining about it now was full of crap.

That complaining about how long it was taking and then complaining that they rushed it through was full of crap.

That no matter what it says it will be the worst thing in the world because it challenges the legacy of Obama. Even though it has passed the Housr, I am less than impressed with its current form.

But it is a pos replacing a pos. So now it's in the hands of the Senate. They may kill it, but that wouldn't be a good thing.

[Marty]

Russell, do you remember what my preferred health care solution is?

[russell]

it's a pos under which you, with various existing conditions, would be subject to surcharges amounting to thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. which is intended to replace a pos under which you are not.

wtf man. youre like one of the freaking miners voting for trump because hes gonna bring back coal.

my idiots dont throw me to the f'ing wolves. thats why they get my vote.

your thought process utterly escapes me.

to each his own. thank your lucky stars youre in ma, if thats where you are.

best of luck.

[russell]

remind me. mines public option or single payer.

good luck.

[Marty]

I am in MA, but my residence is FL so I actually get my insurance under their plan. If they figure out how to insure more people, bend the cost curve, and plug some of the holes and I have to pay more I will live with it. If I due prematurely for lack of health insurance I guess I'll feel dumb.

[Marty]

I really wanted the public option for everyone who couldn't get insurance. Either from being poor or needing a bridge based on preexisting conditions.

That ship sailed when we got the ACA.

[wj]

So Marty, you're saying that the ACA is too far right politically for your taste?

[Marty]

I don't know if that's left or right. Somehow we figured we had to screw up every insurance law, regulation, standard practice to extend insurance to only 20 of the 50 M uninsured and while negatively impacting every middle class working person by ensuring their insurance will be not as good and more expensive even if its through their employer. I assume my objection to that useless and negative overreach is pretty conservative.

[bobbyp]

I really wanted the public option for everyone who couldn't get insurance.

The public option should be for everybody. Hence the term, "public".

while negatively impacting every middle class working person by ensuring their insurance will be not as good and more expensive even if its through their employer.

This is gibberish. Most "middle class" folks have employer based coverage. Before ACA even these plans were subject to extreme cost pressure due to the underlying cause of out of control annual health care cost increases (look it up). The poor and those not in group plans, medicare, or medicaid, were getting screwed.

What was to GOP offer to this problem? Absolutelyfuckingnothing but more tax cuts for the rich.

The balm of gilead.

[russell]

i have, and have always had, insurance through my employer. my coverage has consistently been reduced year over year, and my share of premiums has consistently increased year over year.

my share of premiums from last year to this has nearly doubled, as have many of my co-pays. my out of pocket max has more than doubled.

in one year.

this trend has been so both before and during the ACA.

the cause is not obamacare. the cause is the extraordinary increase in cost of health care.

you cant make money selling health insurance that covers a useful range of poducts and procedures, without excluding folks with expensive illnesses or at least making them pay through the nose. or, exposing them to financial distress or ruin.

so we should quit f'ing around with this BS and do what every other country like us does.

until we igure that out, peopl are going to suffer.

over and out.