Droning On Open Thread

by wj

As we keep hearing, drone aircraft are supposed to become an Amazon delivery option. And already they are spreading to hobbyists. Unfortunately, effective controls over who flies a drone, where, and with what kinds of skill are still notable mostly by their absense.

Will we have to wait for a serious accident to actually happen for the FAA (or the legislatures) to get their act together on the subject? Because we are starting to get close to the point where a drone will (accidently) bring down a manned aircraft in the US.

Comments

[Ugh]

I thought the FAA was ramping up to do something, or maybe the NTSB.

Also, model aircraft have been around for decades, but it seems the people who played with them in the past were more responsible than the current lot.

My lawn, off of it!

[cleek]

once they changed the name to "drone", flying RC aircraft stopped being the hobby of nerds, and became something cool people could do - or at least something cool people could talk about (actually flying those things is still hard!). and once it wasn't just for nerds, and anyone could do it, losers started doing it.

which is to say: i hate the term "drone"

[Countme-In]

I'm an American, so as long as my ordered pizza gets to my window via drone, downing a 747 while in transit is a small price to pay.

I'm working on a design for a flying AK-47 drone. Sort of a shooterless weapon, which like the driverless car, will take the nation by storm, though anonymously.

Since I'm in constant radio contact with the flying weapon, I'm in possession, a right guaranteed by the Founders.

In Texas, where we're beta-testing, I'll be able to fly it through the doors of a Chili's, for example, hover the thing in front of the hostess and order take-out.

If they forget the napkins, back it goes and the servers will hop to, believe you me.

Maybe I'll fly it into a bar in Georgia, order three vodka tonics and tell em to make it snappy.

We'll not be having any of this here gummint regulation.

[wj]

Count, wouldn't it make more of a statement to fly it into NRA HQ with a memo to them on their favority subject? Just wondering....

[JanieM]

My lawn, off of it!

Seconded.

If I were younger, less lazy, and more hands-on, I would be tinkering with designing drone-sensing gizmos and writing drone-repelling software to protect my privacy.

[Countme-In]

Is there some maximum size limit on armed drones, which, by the way, the Founders envisioned as part and parcel of every propertied gentleman's arsenal, which leaves me out, but never mind that?

For the NRA, I envision something about the size of the alien spaceship/drone in the movie "Independence Day", permanently parked over NRA headquarters.

The bald spot on the crown of la Pierre's head will be the ground-zero target and his lips moving will be our trigger warning.

[Countme-In]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/08/us/supreme-court-will-not-hear-challenge-to-assault-weapons-ban-of-highland-park-ill.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Erickson's got some newspapers to shoot again today.

John Cole, who has some military training with said weapons, fires off a couple of rounds.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2015/12/07/not-a-suicide-pact/

Someone check Scalia and Thomas for suicide vests.

[Ugh]

Four years away from trying KSM!

The five men accused of plotting the September 11, 2001 attacks -- including the alleged mastermind -- are this week due back in US military court, though their prospects for an actual trial remain elusive.

Trigger warning: the term "rectal hydration" appears in the linked article.

Er, did I do that wrong?

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Hobbyist "drones" are variants of quadcopters, with a lot of automatic stabilization to make them easy to fly without training.

Model airplanes are more like "real" airplanes, and it takes some serious practice to get the hang of flying them, and probably a few "prangs" along the way. Military drones are much closer to model airplanes than the hobbyist quadcopters.

[Ugh]

Jeb! Fights ISIS!

Just shoot me.

[wj]

In Ugh's link: "“We need a strong leader with executive experience..." -- Maj Gen Livingston

I realize that Jeb is aiming this at Trump. But it would seem to fit Hilary at least as well as it does Jeb himself. (Although I suppose that is a long term consideration in a situation where the short term prospects could be characterized as dire for him.)

[D.]

Prediction: It will take having that serious accident to get effective regulations, just as it usually takes a pedestrian fatality to get traffic signals installed, even if the neighborhood has been requesting them.

I just hope I'm not on that plane.

[cleek]

JEBFIGHTSISIS!

bless his heart

[Nigel]

JEBISBEYONDAPARODY/NOTHINGSADDRTHANALOSERWHODOESNTYETSEEMTOREALISEIT....!!!

And sadder still that right wing America seems to prefer an incipient fascist.

[Ugh]

The Donald!

In a statement from his campaign, Trump called for a "total and complete shutdown" of Muslims entering the United States until elected leaders can "figure out what is going on."

When asked by The Hill whether that would include Muslim-American citizens currently abroad, Trump spokeswoman Hope Hicks replied over email: "Mr. Trump says, 'everyone.'"

[Snarki, child of Loki]

@D: "Prediction: It will take having that serious accident to get effective regulations, just as" it took a mass shooting of first- and second-graders to get effective gun control through a GOP-controlled Congress.

Your optimism is so cute!

[wj]

You have to wonder. Why don't Trump, and those who agree with him about how things should be run, just skip the incrementalism?

Demand a Constitutional Convention (which Article V of the current Consitutional provides for). Rewtite the whole thing, since they don't like big parts of the freedoms that it guarantees -- or at least, don't like them being guaranteed to anyone but themselves.

It really seems like it would be just so much easier to get what they want that way. Of course, should they pull it off, it would make their cherished victimhood harder to maintain. Which may be sufficient reason for them to avoid it.

[Slartibartfast]

Trump is self-destructing a little ahead of schedule. He's supposed to wait until he's won the Republican nomination.

[russell]

We'll see if his comments today result in self-destruction, or not.

[Countme-In]

Even if it does, apostates who abandon Him will redirect to Ted Cruz, another step in the lineage leading to the rude Beast emerging on the Right in America.

Trump and Cruz are merely glib facsimiles of what's coming down the pike.

Look here, and see where they won't be redirected, in case anyone's still hoping:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jeb-bush-donald-trump-domain-redirect

Besides, even if Jeb or Rubio do emerge in the polls, they will have sold what little they have left of their souls to the Tea Party Republican filth to their Right so that their Presidencies will be little more than a competition to see who can be the bestest Murderer-In-Chief, lest they face impeachment from the Trump, Carson, and Cruz crowd who coattail those three into Congress, regardless of who the nominee is.

Enough mainstream conservatives will go along for awhile to get their taxes lowered, but by then it will be too late.

If Hillary is elected, four more years of lickspittle hatred, with the emphasis veering more toward women than blacks, as the Handmaid's Tale becomes the prophetic piece of literature. Images of innocent Muslims, immigrants, gays and lesbians, and the Left at large will, of course, remain as hot-selling poster children for sale to conservative gun ranges.

I'd expect a rash of conservative cops gunning down unarmed women as conservative media re-adjusts their violent rhetoric to aim the Zeitgeist at the chosen targets.

Planned Parenthood will have to hire armed muscle to avoid being murdered in mass.

We will have pregnant women and their fetuses being gunned down as they try to enter Planned Parenthood for prenatal care.

[russell]

unfortunately, there's nothing out of the historical mainstream in Trump's plan to prevent Muslims from entering the US.

I'm not sure if we've ever done that based on religion, specifically, but we have done so on national origin and general political ideology.

Then, some years later, we all agree that it was a pointless mistake.

Then, some years later, when some new bad stuff happens, we try it on again.

I don't think Trump's comments will have any negative effect on his chances for (R) candidate for POTUS. Just the opposite, if anything. Even if he doesn't get the nomination, all of the other candidates are now going to have to see his nationalist ante and maybe even raise it.

People get freaked out and they'll listen to any damned thing. The crazier the better. The more the rhetoric affirms the crazy stuff in their heads, the more sense it makes to them.

[Slartibartfast]

Cruz is a guy whose views are fairly consistent over time, as far as I am aware, and he's pretty genuine whether you like what you see or not. He's intelligent and educated.

Trump, on the other hand, is 100% self-sales. There's not a thoughtful bone in his body; all of his energy goes into win.

Even if you hate both of them, they are not even close to being equivalent.

[Countme-In]

I agree they are not equivalent, though they both have entered the same race to the bottom.

Cruz is consistent, genuine, sincere, and un-hypocritical, all of the traits that make him more predictably and viciously dangerous, to my mind.

I'm not a big critic of hypocrites, that being the human condition. Most of the monsters in history do what they say they are going to do and rarely swerve into hypocrisy.

It's the consistent ones you have to watch out for.

Cruz is velociraptor with a law degree to Trump's Lord of the Rings cave troll.

Swift, adaptable, the very top of the throat-ripping reptilian food chain.

Trump bellows and bludgeons. He's top-heavy, easy to take down.

There is some evidence that those who know Trump generally like him personally, which is thin brew and no defense from me, but so I've read.

There is more evidence that those who have crossed paths personally with Cruz find him repellent and would never turn their backs on him again for fear of the shiv.

The latter will ultimately prove to be more to the taste of those legions who want to punish their enemies without mercy.

[Nigel]

Not so much LOTR troll, as simply troll.

It's quite possible that he'll get the nomination, a circumstance which gets a bemused shake of the head over here.
If not, as evidenced by Slart's post above, he serves to render those such as Cruz more considered/reasonable/acceptable, which in of itself is a pretty remarkable achievement.

[cleek]

i'm not sure Trump is going to be easy to take down. what people seem to love about him is that he says the kinds of things that would destroy any other candidate. so, i don't think he's going to gaffe himself out of it.

though, when you've gone too far for Cheney, who knows...
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/dick-cheney-donald-trump-muslim-ban-extreme

[Nigel]

Just saw him on UK lunchtime TV reported as calling ("reluctantly") for internment camps...

[Donald Johnson]

For some fair sized chunk of Americans extreme Islamophobic statements aren't a gaffe, but what they believe and think others are too PC to say. What the fraction is we are presumably going to find out.

[Ugh]

For some fair sized chunk of Americans extreme Islamophobic statements aren't a gaffe, but what they believe and think others are too PC to say.

They're like Col. Nathan R. Jessup and the Code Red. They think it and they're pissed off that they feel like they can't say it out loud and now finally someone in "authority" is doing it and they couldn't be happier. Once again, it's a big fnck you to all the liberals out there and makes them feel better about themselves.

Donald Trump is now ISIS's #1 recruiter. Congratulations, GOP!

[cleek]

resentment is a hell of a drug.

[Ugh]

It's the triumph of Richard Nixon. I blame Ike.

[Tony P.]

Last night, Rachel Maddow floated the notion that maybe The Donald is trying to get himself disowned by the GOP.

Whatever it may be that goes on under that hair, I have to assume that Trump's obsession is always and ever the greater glory of his "brand". Based on that assumption, Rachel's suspicion is not absurd.

I still want to see a Sanders v. Trump general election, FWIW. We'd find out once and for all whether the American electorate is irretrievably deranged.

--TP

[liberal japonicus]

Speaking of fractions, Nate Silver was suggesting that the way polls were, Trump supporters were basically the same as the number of people who think the moon landings are fake.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/dear-media-stop-freaking-out-about-donald-trumps-polls/

So it may be that Trump's support is simply the basic background noise of US politics. Though it says something that it is all concentrated in the Republican party...

[Countme-In]

It is instructive however that today's ascendant radical right-wing nearly uniformly considers Nixon a moderate squish, a traitor to conservatism.

While of course wondering what the big deal was with Watergate.

No, this thing in 2015 is a whole different set of heads on the hydra. True, Nixon, with his southern strategy made strides in perfecting the Republican Party's appeal to the dregs of our worst natures as a political strategy.

But now, we're not dealing with those who were at least willing to find new and clever ways of using the word "nigger", a la Atwater (following Nixon, Haldeman, and Mitchell, et al), in all of its forms, but with a crowd of authenticity seekers who wonder WHY we are so politically correct that we can't just go back to calling a spade a spade, as we did in the golden era of 1954, now along with publically waving weapons around in civilians' faces as we do it.

That Ben Carson, for example, appeals momentarily to this crowd who believes "those people" might be getting a leg up via Obamacare or think that the armed forces should not be the place for social experimentation (Harry Truman differed, my dear f*cking Doctor), among his bizarre views, is a very special ingrown type of minstrelsy, but apparently an appealing, profitable one for the purposes of his grift, which his followers are too sincere and genuine (as sincere and genuine as a German chicken farmer in 1927) to catch out as a grift.

THIS, following, is good news, until you consider that the individual will be successfully primaried by the worst of the same on his next electoral go-round, merely for suggesting that lethally stupid is abroad in the land and in his own Party and might be dangerous:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/12/devin-nunes-explains-why-hes-less-conservative-he-used-be

It is touching that FOXNews management seems a little touchy and politically correct all of a sudden about Obama being called a "pussy" and "not giving a "sh*t" about terrorism and Scarborough is cutting to commercial just to shut Trump up.

What, NOW these people are discovering the right-wing whirlwind is in the thorn tree? And NOW, the virgins should trim their wicks?

Too late.

It only gains momentum from here. There are vast forests of thorn trees that will have to be cut down before this is over in America.

What the Republican Party is hoping is that the whirlwind will somehow subside and we'll come to look upon right-wing blue-eyed professional killers like Paul Ryan/Ayn Rand as reasonable alternatives after all.

[Countme-In]

Maddow can't predict what Trump is up to.

He's improvisational. He doesn't know anymore what's going to come out of this mouth tomorrow than a jazz instrumentalist, Sonny Mussolini, the trumpet player, can tell you what notes he's going to play at his next gig, and the Donald doesn't know whether he likes what he hears out of own mouth until the mob reacts.

The more they hate it, the more he likes it.

But whatever it is, it will be terrific.

[Countme-In]

If current trends continue, Texas textbooks will teach that the moon landings WERE fake.

[Countme-In]

More on the Nunes cite above:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2015_12/crazed_conspiracy_theories_con058906.php

[Countme-In]

And that goes for the media too.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2015/12/08/178385/

The media's idea of objectivity now is to bring in Doctor Rufus P Dumbass, Director of the Center For Rock Bottom Stupidity, to provide journalistic balance to whatever expertise happens to be on camera today.

That's about as politically correct as it gets.

[Countme-In]

And that goes for the media too.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2015/12/08/178385/

The media's idea of objectivity now is to bring in Doctor Rufus P Dumbass, Director of the Center For Rock Bottom Stupidity, to provide journalistic balance to whatever expertise happens to be on camera today.

That's about as politically correct as it gets.

[Countme-In]

That second identical post should have read "And that goes for the media two."

[novakant]

I have heard this intriguing conspiracy theory that Trump is actually on a mission to guarantee a Clinton win either by totally discrediting the GOP or by going independent and doing a Ross Perot.

Clinton is a bit of a psycho in her own right, though, talking about nuking other countries - Trump only wants to put people in internment camps ...

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Well, OF COURSE the Trump supporters think that the moon landings were faked!

How could they trust NASA when there was a Demoncrat in the White House, amirite?

[cleek]

plus, how can you trust NASA, when it's PROVEN that they faked three century's worth of climate data?

[wj]

Trump only wants to put people in internment camps . . . so far. You got to leave the man room for future statements. After all, the election is still almost a year away.

The question is, who will he propose nuking first? And how many places will he get to before he is done? My guess is that he starts with Nuking ISIS. And for his finale, just before the election, he calls for nuking Mecca. (I'd expect him to include Medina, but I doubt he is informed enough to think of it.)

[cleek]

Trump:

"We're losing a lot of people because of the internet. We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

http://boingboing.net/2015/12/08/donald-trump-thinks-he-can-cal.html

heckofajob, GOP. stellar.

[CharlesWT]

Well, Donald and Hillary seem to agree on one thing... :)

Your Presidential Frontrunners Discuss the Internet: Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton: compare 'n' contrast

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"Your Presidential Frontrunners Discuss the Internet: Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton: compare 'n' contrast"

I'd rather have Hillary help to set up email, that's for sure. Donald is probably still looking for the "any" key.

[Michael Cain]

Hobbyist "drones" are variants of quadcopters, with a lot of automatic stabilization to make them easy to fly without training. Model airplanes are more like "real" airplanes, and it takes some serious practice to get the hang of flying them...

I'm surprised that model airplanes haven't started incorporating automatic stabilization features.

[Tony P.]

I'm tempted to cut and paste the entire Reason.com Hit&Run blog post that CharlesWT links to, because it's shorter than the average comment around here. The accompanying photo is good for a laugh, though.

Those wacky libertarians have a marvelous way of "reasoning". They seem like people who "compare and contrast" songs by reading the lyrics, or paintings by looking at black-and-white photos of them.

--TP

[novakant]

Turns out Clinton still wants to nuke Iran, she thought she had succeeded in putting her genocidal pet peeve behind her since the campaign against Obama - but her subconscious is playing tricks on her:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary-clintons-freudian-slip-the-nuclear-option-should-not-at-all-be-taken-off-the-table/5494380

[sapient]

novakant, it's called mutually assured destruction, the policy that kept nukes from being used since WWII. It's understandable that you don't get it. How old are you, 22?

The premise is: Warning: Don't nuke Israel, or we will nuke you. (We obviously don't want either situation to ever happen, but the threat is "not taken off the table" so the one party doesn't presume to act without worrying about the consequences.)

Is it a good policy? Obviously it's pretty grim, and I'm not going to be "for" nuking anyone. But arguably, it has paralyzed the people who have nukes from having used those nukes for the last 3/4 century.

[wj]

Deterrence generally works better, however, if you make it a little clearer that the nuclear option is not off the table in the specific circumstances of an Iranian nuclear strike. Otherwise, it is all too easy to to misinterpret the comment as suggesting the possibility of a first strike.

Which is exactly the approach which would make the target likely to strike first. After all, if you don't (yet) have hardened missle silos or missle subs, you wouldn't be able to respond to a first strike at you. So you are incentivized to do the first striking.

[sapient]

Unlikely that Hillary wants to nuke Iran, wj. You may disagree, but i'd be a lot more worried about those singing "Bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran," and their party.

But maybe that's just my bias.

[sapient]

After all, if you don't (yet) have hardened missle silos or missle subs, you wouldn't be able to respond to a first strike at you. So you are incentivized to do the first striking.

But the incentive would not be enough in that instance, or am i missing something?

[wj]

I don't think Hilary would make a nuclear first strike on Iran either. But the issue isn't what you or I think she meant. The issue is what the Iranians, specifically the Iranian government (which sees itself, accurately, as surrounded by enemies), think she meant.

[sapient]

Whatever, wj. i'm not worried about it. The Iran deal was a many-years-long process, and kudos to John Kerry for pulling it through. But Hillary's state department was working on it too. The Iranians are pretty knowledgeable about who's who here.

[Countme-In]

Cruz is detestable.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/why-cruz-wont-be-the-republican-nominee/

[JakeB]

All I can say is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7XvU4sWLAo

[wj]

If linking to a cat video isn't a violation of the posting rules, maybe we need to revise the rules. ;-)

[Nigel]

Around a quarter of UK voters are down with Trump's idea:
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/674548714875277312/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Reading polls like that make me quite grateful for UKIP - it's drained a significant portion of the right wing from the Conservative party, and has little prospect of obtaining any real power.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

"Around a quarter of UK voters are down with Trump's idea..."

I'm guessing that "Around a quarter" would be 27%, with the appropriate error bars.

Eventually, a genetic cause for this phenomenon will be discovered, no doubt.

[Ugh]

Eventually, a genetic cause for this phenomenon will be discovered, no doubt.

They're System 1 people. I'm 75 pages into that book and it's fascinating, BTW>

[novakant]

F off, sapient, I have experienced the last 15 years of the Cold War right here at the sharp end in Europe where the nukes would have been flying.

Anyone with half a brain realizes that the doctrine of mutually assured destruction is both ethically and practically problematic, well, basically insane.

How it applies to Iran remains a mystery though. What is quite clear though is that a president to be shouldn't go around threatening to "obliterate" other nations, never mind the odds of that actually occurring. If memory serves, Reagan was the only one who made such a threat and it was supposed to be a joke that turned into a major scandal at the time - we have come a long way...

[Slartibartfast]

sapient seems to be highly confident in his nuclear power expertise. Either he's a) part of an advisory thinktank on nuclear strategy, or b) talking directly out of his ass.

I am betting on b), myself.

A little less swagger would have me in a less annoyed position.

[Slartibartfast]

s/power/strategy

[russell]

They're System 1 people.

Everybody has a lizard brain, and barring severe neurological deficits everybody also has the capacity for considered reflection, self-awareness, empathy, and self-control.

It's all about what you do with the equipment.

[Nigel]

Irony ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35052505

Mind you, there are a few previous candidates who might have deserved the same treatment.

[cleek]

dear GOP,
Bob Dole wants you to knock off the nonsense.

[Donald Johnson]

Seems to be some differences of opinion and uncertainties regarding nuclear winter theory these days, but we might not be able to nuke Iran without causing a famine everywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter

Aside from whatever one thinks about the ethics of nuclear deterrence.

[Nombrilisme Vide]

The premise is: Warning: Don't nuke Israel, or we will nuke you. (We obviously don't want either situation to ever happen, but the threat is "not taken off the table" so the one party doesn't presume to act without worrying about the consequences.)

Israel ambiguously possesses something between the world's third largest nuclear arsenal and its eighth. They also complete the nuclear triad, are entirely capable of executing a second-strike nuclear launch (especially against a nation who is as of the writing not even a nuclear power), and have been quite vocal in "mad dog" MAD rhetoric even as they avoid officially admitting their status as a nuclear power. They're all growed up; they don't need us to be menacing their strategic rivals for them, no matter how much they enjoy Big Goy doing it for the sake of convenience.

[wj]

Bob Dole -- the last Republican Presidential nominee that a moderate or liberal Republican (yes, there are a few still out there) could, in good conscience, vote for. Ditto for some of us moderately conservative (albeit not "conservative" as the term is currently used) voters.

[Slartibartfast]

Bob Dole wants you to knock off the nonsense.

That would be maximally funny if Bob Dole had said it.

[wj]

It's even funnier if you take "knock off" in its meaning of "a cheap imitation". Because that seems to be what a lot of the candidates' rhetoric seems to be -- cheap imitation of the nonsense being spouted by others.

[sapient]

They're all growed up; they don't need us to be menacing their strategic rivals for them, no matter how much they enjoy Big Goy doing it for the sake of convenience.

Although I agree with you about this, I also think that Hillary Clinton's statement isn't evidence that she's a psychotic warmonger intent on using nukes. Even if it was a dumb thing to say, I think that the least of our worries at this particular moment is the prospect of Hillary getting elected, and then using a nuke. YMMV.

[sapient]

the ethics of nuclear deterrence

As long as "nuclear deterrence" is actually deterring, I think the ethics are pretty clear.

[Donald Johnson]

They're really not clear, for various reasons. One is that if you target cities, you are saying it is okay in some circumstances to kill millions of civilians (in response to the killings of millions of civilians). If so, then why not apply the same reasoning on a smaller scale?

And the whole scary thing about the Cold War is that on a few occasions, either via accident (mistaken radar readings) or miscalculation (the Cuban missile crisis), it might not have worked. Suppose there was a 1 percent chance of a nuclear war per year. Then the chance of avoiding war over a 40 year period is better than even, but it wouldn't be a great endorsement of the system.

[Donald Johnson]

Trump's Muslim comments aren't necessarily hurting him much in the polls.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-12-09/bloomberg-politics-poll-trump-muslim-ban-proposal

Not a huge surprise.

[cleek]

Not a huge surprise.

nope. sure ain't.

they sure are making it hard to not call the GOP 'racist'.

[sapient]

Then the chance of avoiding war over a 40 year period is better than even, but it wouldn't be a great endorsement of the system.

I'm for doing whatever works. That includes nonproliferation and disarmament treaties to the extent that they can be negotiated. I'd also be in favor of unilaterally reducing our own stockpile.

All that said, the current "system" is flawed and scary, and subject to catastrophic failure, but it has worked for some time. The fact that the technology exists makes it essential to assume the possibility that someone will use it. How to stop that from happening has been a challenge (met successfully) since 1945.

And to reiterate, the subject came up because Hillary Clinton was being savaged as a psycho, intent on genocide, because of her rhetorical support for the "system". She is not a psycho, she's not intent on genocide, and it's hard to imagine any scenario where she'd actually use a nuclear weapon. Obviously, one doesn't have to agree with every position she's taken over the decades to reject the idea that she's a genocidal psycho.

[cleek]

Clinton? she's no better than Dick Cheney.

PUMATime!

[hairshirthedonist]

Clinton is a bit of a psycho in her own right, though, talking about nuking other countries...

This is the statement where Clinton was "savaged as a psycho, intent on genocide." The above italicized quote may be a bit of an overstatement, but it doesn't quite fit that particular bill.

[Nigel]

Herbert, a former soldier from Portsmouth, who served in Iraq with the Yorkshire Regiment, lost his leg in a roadside bombing in Basra. But far from spouting hatred of Islam, Herbert's post goes on to praise the Muslims who served next to him in Iraq and helped him recover from his injuries...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-35054442

In contrast to this young man, Trump is simply a coward.

[Nigel]

Appealing to cowardice.

[Countme-In]

Can you imagine psycho Trump's business card, or Cruz's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cISYzA36-ZY

The rest of the Republican primary candidates, and I suppose Clinton too, are rushing to the printers to have more exquisitely effective ones printed up to meet the competition.

Their prospective clients, the now psycho American electorate, demand only the very best in psycho killer presentation, qu'est-ce que c'est, unhh ha hunh huh, unhh ha hunh huh, for the big sales meeting next year.

[russell]

I think this is the statement where Clinton was accused of being "intent on genocide":

Turns out Clinton still wants to nuke Iran, she thought she had succeeded in putting her genocidal pet peeve behind her

I'm not a huge fan of Clinton's, and her relative (to other D's) hawkishness is one reason my vote and money went to Obama when she ran against him.

But (a) it does indeed appear that novakant considers Clinton to have genocidal intent toward Iran, and (b) that seems, to me, to be an overstatement measurable in orders of magnitude.

[sapient]

hairshirt, don't forget this gem of novakant's: Turns out Clinton still wants to nuke Iran, she thought she had succeeded in putting her genocidal pet peeve behind her since the campaign against Obama

Yes, it ticks me off. Sorry that I don't subscribe to the "not a dime's worth of difference" doctrine.

[sapient]

Thanks, russell, for your 6:04. I'm trying to practice anger management, but sometimes I fail. I'll take a break now.

[hairshirthedonist]

I stand corrected. My apologies. It seems novakant does think Clinton a genocidal maniac. Weird.

[Countme-In]

Trump's demand to prohibit all Muslims from entering the country and putting the ones here in concentration camps seems a half measure without also keeping all female virgins out and rounding up the few left who live in the U.S for detention.

[Girl from the North Country]

Just feel I ought to let you all know that, further to the YouAintNoMuslimBruv hashtag previously linked after the London Underground knife attack, have just heard, re Trump, YouAintNoChristianBruv. Seems about right to me.

[sapient]

Seems about right to me.

Yep.

[novakant]

Clinton threatened, and I quote, to "totally obliterate" Iran, nuff said.

[Tony P.]

If a man declares that he is a Christian -- or a Republican, for that matter -- who can gainsay him?

Do Christians -- or Republicans -- have the same obligation as Muslims do to renounce, abjure, and detest those who bring their tribe into disrepute?

And (bonus question) what gives them the standing to do so? I mean: how is an atheist -- or a Democrat -- expected to decide whether Pope Francis is a true Christian but Rev. Falwell isn't, or Bob Dole is a true Republican but Donald Trump isn't?

--TP

[novakant]

And just a couple of weeks ago she considered "the Iranians" her enemy, not Khamenei or whoever, but "the Iranians".

[wj]

Clinton threatened, and I quote, to "totally obliterate" Iran, nuff said.

Of course, the US totally obliterated the USSR. Not only without nuclear weapons strikes, but without any significant military action. Just a combination of economic force and a bit of cultural imperialism. Iran would hardly be a harder nut to crack.

'Nuff said.

[wj]

Baby steps. A decade ago, I had a consulting gig in Riyadh. Saudi Arabia had just held their first ever elections (for municipal offices). One of the guys I was working with (obviously an enormous optimist) said "Next time, we move up beyond just municipal offices. And we let the women vote!" Of course nothing like that happened for years.

But even in Saudi Arabia, things do change. Perhaps, like me, you missed the news in September. And this weekend, the election arrives where women finally get to vote.

It's been a long time coming. But for the Saudis, what the rest of the world considers (long overdue) baby steps are giant strides.

[novakant]

Come on wj, you're better than that

[Hartmut]

Given the current king and the likely crown prince, Saudi Arabia may reverse even those baby steps when no one is looking.
They have to out-fundie ISIS after all (while still inofficially funding the movement).

[CharlesWT]

If the price of oil stays low, the Saudis will run out of money to buy off their citizens.

[cleek]

how about we look at her actual words?

when asked to clarify her position, in the hypothetical situation where Iran launches a nuclear attack on Israel, she said:

"In the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them. That's a terrible thing to say but those people who run Iran need to understand that, because that perhaps will deter them from doing something that would be reckless, foolish and tragic."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=857guwaNbRc

[Donald Johnson]

Actually wj's comment reminds me of what some say about the intent of the Iranian words when speaking about Israel-- they are repeating what Khomenei said about the Soviet Union. He wanted the government to disappear.