Kitchen Sink - Friday Open Thread

by wj

Obviously past time for a new one of these again.

Comments

[Countme-In]

http://www.knowyourphrase.com/phrase-meanings/Everything-But-The-Kitchen-Sink.html

I gave it all in the Totally Texas Thread.

What do you want from me?

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Hey, didn't we have a big discussion of kitchen sinks a couple of months ago, in a 'kitchen renovation' post?

I, for one, would love to hear an update on that project.

[Donald johnson]

Latest study (more of a literature review) of the death tolls of our recent wars.

http://www.psr.org/assets/pdfs/body-count.pdf

[thompson]

Sorry, a repost from Obergefell thread:

This made my day:

http://www.masslive.com/news/boston/index.ssf/2015/05/gloucester_police_chief_leonar.html

At a citywide forum Saturday, Campanello announced major changes in how police in this small Essex County city will handle the opioid and drug epidemic gripping Massachusetts and the rest of the country.

“We are poised to make revolutionary changes in the way we treat this disease,” he told residents at the forum.

Any addict who walks into the Gloucester Police Department with drugs and the remainder of their drug equipment – needles, pipes or other paraphernalia – and asks for help will not be criminally charged, Campanello said. Instead, they will be steered into a treatment program to help them detox and recover.

“We will assign them an ‘angel’ who will be their guide through the process,” Campanello said. “Not in hours or days, but on the spot.”

That is a man who takes civil service earnestly. Another profound part of the speech is that he would use drug forfeiture funds to support drug treatment. I'm still not a fan of civil forfeiture, but at least it would go to a good cause.

[russell]

Campanello's a good guy. I also live in Essex County, and opioids are definitely an issue here, friends of mine have died.

Gloucester in particular has a history with abuse of heroin, and now opioids in general.

Cool to see the chief of police there taking a constructive approach.

[cleek]

we just bought a new kitchen sink. our last had sharp, square inside corners; which meant they were always a little dirty. new sink has nice rounded corners, like a sink should have.

Mrs wanted to get a sink made from this new-fangled granite composite stuff (ground granite in epoxy, with pigment). but when i asked the sales guy if it scratched or scuffed, he showed us that it takes to scuffs from metal like a sidewalk takes to chalk. so, no.

[byomtov]

I am vaguely considering some kitchen work and wondering about sinks.

Is there a significant benefit to the thicker (more expensive) steel ones or not? I'm assuming I start with one that you can't just stick a fork through, but beyond that, what's the deal?

I have the original steel sink the builder put in and am confident it is far from high-end, but it has no dings or anything.

[CharlesWT]

Stainless: Gauge doesn't matter
More people buy stainless-steel kitchen sinks than any other type. We tested 18-to-23-gauge sinks; the lower the gauge, the thicker the steel. We also listened to the noise made by running water and dropped weights. We found the gauge had little to do with performance and sinks with sound-absorbing pads, placed on the exterior's bottom and sides, were quieter than those with a spray coating.
Sink buying guide

[Lurker]

In my opinion, there is nothing to beat a stainless steel sink. The best type is one where the kitchen countertop is also steel and the sink is part of the countertop. Such a sink-countertop I easy to keep clean and it is wonderfully scratch-resistant.

Of course, it is also a bit old-fashioned.

[byomtov]

CharlesWT,

Thanks. More or less what i suspected.

[Doctor Science]

I'm the one who's doing the home renovation, including kitchen. We're currently at the "demo just starting, ducks not completely in a row" stage. We have an order-cabinetry meeting with the kitchen designers next week, and I'm going to the appliance place tomorrow morning to start considering options.

I do have a burning question about kitchen sinks:

What's the attraction of these farmhouse-style apron front sinks? When I look at them, I think "they call them apron front because you're going to get water down your front if you're not wearing an apron". Or in my case, *more* water down my front -- I wear aprons all the time, and they tend to get pretty wet already if I'm at the sink for a while.

We're getting soapstone countertops, and I'm wondering about getting a soapstone sink, as well ... though my inclination is to use stainless, as less easy to break the wineglasses while cleaning them.

[cleek]

a history of the farmhouse/apron sink: http://www.nativetrails.net/blog/love-thy-farmhouse-sink/

i assumed they were to avoid having a strip of stone/wood counter top that would get all banged up from pots and pans. turns out it's something else.

[cleek]

SS in worse shape than we thought: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/retirement/social-security-may-be-worse-shape-we-thought-study-n355956

yay

[Doctor Science]

hmmm, so farmhouse sink = less lower-back ache. A v. attractive feature, no question.

Would I in fact get more water down my front, though? and can they be stainless steel, to combine ergonomics w/ easier on the glassware?

[Snarki, child of Loki]

probably too big, to thick metal, too many $$$, but yes, apron front SS:
http://www.kraususa.com/khf200-36-36-inch-farmhouse-apron-single-bowl-16-gauge-stainless-steel-kitchen-sink.html

f'in huge, if you ask me.

[Doctor Science]

But why do SS apron front sinks have such thick front edges? They look about double the thickness of e.g. soapstone.

[hairshirthedonist]

My best friend's girlfriend's brother just graduated Liberty University. Congratulations? Condolences? I'm confused.

[thompson]

russell:

opioids are definitely an issue here, friends of mine have died.

I'm really sorry to hear that.

Cool to see the chief of police there taking a constructive approach.

I think the thing that frustrates me so much about the war on drugs is how catastrophically it has failed to reduce drug addiction, and the enormous financial and social costs of the program. Yet it keeps on.

http://www.thewire.com/national/2012/10/chart-says-war-drugs-isnt-working/57913/

But actions like the CoP took give me hope that we might be shifting towards a sensible policy of some kind.

[thompson]

Congratulations? Condolences? I'm confused.

Business opportunity: Ambiguously worded greeting cards.

[bobbyp]

SS in worse shape than we thought:

Bullshit.

[cleek]

that's the best kind of shit!

[Snarki, child of Loki]

Dr. S; I think it's because the soapstone front is solid, and therefore plenty stiff. The SS is 16 gauge (heaver than normal), but that's still a lot thinner than 3/4" stone, so it has to have a thicker lip in front.

Well, speculation. But I'd bet that just a sheet of 16 ga SS across the front would be too wobbly. You could probably wiggle it back and forth with a finger, and it would make that wow-wow-wow metal sound.

(pausing now to imagine Dr. S playing the new sink and singing: "in the kitchen, the brand new kitchen, Dr. S sings tonight ...aweem awep aweem awep ...")

[Doctor Science]

ROFLMAO.

*Strongly* tempted -- Mister Doctor is quite a good percussionist ...

[wj]

Gotta disagree, cleek. Chickens produce far more useful fertilizer. Easier to deal with, too -- and I speak from childhood experience dealing with both.

(No idea why it got the negative connotations it has.)

[russell]

We're currently at the "demo just starting, ducks not completely in a row" stage.

Yikes.

The horse is probably out of the barn, but if not, you maybe want to get the design-level stuff sorted before tearing anything out.

Everything has a lead time.

[Doctor Science]

russell:

Actually, part of the reason the kitchen design isn't completely sorted is because there has to be some demo before we know exactly what space we're dealing with. e.g. the ceiling is odd: what's behind there? A doorway is very narrow, and we don't know why, what's interfering with making it wider.

It's an *adventure*.

[sanbikinoraion]

I'm only average height for a man, but I find these posh new apron/farmhouse/whatever sinks a pain in the, er, back, because they are so deep that I spend the whole time washing up having to hunch over in order to be able to reach things out of the bottom of them. Even worse for my partner, who is six feet tall.

[cleek]

i'm 5'11" and i find standard counter height (3') to be just a few inches too low. we have a deep sink, and yeah, that's a long reach.

i'm tempted to ask our builder to put the counters in our new place a couple of inches above standard height. but that would probably cause problems with appliances - ex. free standing ranges are built to standard counter height.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

You can always have sections of the counters (or peninsulas or islands or archipelagos or atolls) that have a different height. The added cost could be close to zero, depending on the transitions (if any) between sections, and it does make for a more interesting kitchen, visually.

OR, you could just suspend everything from the ceiling with a cunning set of ropes and pulleys and servomechanisms, so the height can be adjusted 'dynamically'.

[cleek]

or, put it all on vertical tracks, with lifting provided by hydraulics hidden in the walls.

House Of The Future!

[hairshirthedonist]

Maybe a trench in the floor just in front of all counter tops, with covers for shorter people to stand at normal elevation.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

The good thing about the "ropes and pulleys and servomechanisms" plan is that first you can try it out in the master bedroom, and then...oh, wait, I've said too much.

[Doctor Science]

Actually, we're considering having the counters at 37.5 inches, already. I'm 5'6" or so, while Sprog the Younger is 5'10" and Mister Doctor is 5'10" to 6 feet, depending on how his back is feeling.

sanbikinoraion:
I think I need to try out the sink before going for it. It's true that extra-deep sinks, whatever height they are, are a pain for most household tasks.

[jeff]

Doc, hoping you have set up a pleasant temporary kitchen.
The quickest I have ever gutted and completed a kitchen was three weeks (not needing to wait on subcontractors). The couple set up such a nice kitchen in their patio room that they didn't move into the new kitchen until winter arrived, but they were a unique couple who only added a dishwasher for resale value.

[byomtov]

I just measured my counters, which seem to be at a comfortable height for my 5' 11" self. They turn out to be 36 3/4, maybe a smidge higher.

FWIW.

[cleek]

perhaps i have freakishly long arms.

[bobbyp]

perhaps i have freakishly long arms.

Put on your shoes.

[Countme-In]

You can leave your hat on.

[Snarki, child of Loki]

+9.5

[Slartibartfast]

I like the extra-deep sinks because you can wash more produce in them. That's pretty much all. They do take more time to fill, which is a pain, especially if you have the ones whose bowls are in the shape of rectangular prisms rather than rounded.

I have a heavy-gauge steel sink because I like it, and because it's a lot cheaper than solid gold, which I might also like. Soapstone would probably function well as a touchstone, which means that either you'll spend a lot of time trying to erase the marks that various metal implements leave on it, or you'll just have to leave that accidental overlay of traces on it and hope that it eventually becomes decorative.

I can't help you with counter heights, other than to note that one of the previous occupants of our home was under 5', and so the bathroom counter was sized to that scale. It hits me just above mid-thigh level.

Needless to say, gutting that bathroom will be high up on our list of things to do next.

[byomtov]

perhaps i have freakishly long arms.

Then you want the counter lower, I think, not higher.

[cleek]

nobody was supposed to notice that

[hairshirthedonist]

Try holding your arms straight out while running through a barn at 90% of the speed of light. Then we'll know what kind of sink you need.

[cleek]

a heat sink, is my guess. a really big heat sink.

[wj]

And probably more than one.

[hairshirthedonist]

So my wife just called to say the exterior pane of glass in our back door is shattered. Something happened when no one was home.

I don't know if we'll have the glass replaced or just get a new door. Does anyone have any recommendations on choosing between a steel or fiberglass door? I'm thinking less glass if a new door, too.

[cleek]

we're in the process of trying to choose a front door for our new place. the guy at the door store told us to avoid steel doors because they conduct heat so well (compared to fiberglass). they also dent.

[hairshirthedonist]

That would explain the dent in my steel door (with the shattered glass). And my back door faces the south, with no shade. I painted it white, but still.

My wife is attached to the 12-lite door, but never liked the idea that someone can quickly get into my house with nothing but a decent-sized rock.

I would like to take the opportunity to have glass just at the top of the door, rather than going down well past the door knob and dead-bolt lock, within a few inches of both.

[cleek]

yeah, ditto all that. sidelights, too.

they do provide a nice place to stick your Smith And Wesson sticker, tho.

[wj]

If you want a steel door, get as much glass as possible and make it double-pane. That will keep the heat transfer down, just as double-pane windows elsewhere do. (They've made a huge difference in our summer cooling bills!)

[hairshirthedonist]

We have the sidelights on the front door. It's all very early-2000s McMansion, Jr.

We actually went with the phoney "Beware of Dog" sign and the highly effective security-system warnings.

I am a caricature of suburban, middle-class America. (Wanna hear about our minivan?)

[hairshirthedonist]

If you want a steel door, get as much glass as possible and make it double-pane.

That's actually what we have now, just with a shattered outer pane.

[cleek]

It's all very early-2000s McMansion, Jr. ... I am a caricature of suburban, middle-class America.

we could be neighbors.

[wj]

Minivans are merely sensible. You get the cargo capacity of a station wagon, which is a plus for anyone who has matured past the psychological need for a sports car. Plus you get improved vision, because the driver's seat is higher, which makes safe driving easier.

[russell]

I got a small mini-van (Mazda V) because I took up vibes and marimba, and they're pretty long.

It's a great vehicle, I can leave a drum kit in the car and still have enough room for a dump run.

Plus, the sliding side door means I can pull right up to the doorway at venues when I load in and out. Which is great on a rainy day.

I get about 30 mpg on the highway if I use the cruise.

Thumbs up.

[wj]

Plus, there is enough head and leg room for those of us over 6' -- which is definitely a "must have" when I go car shopping.

[russell]

“We are poised to make revolutionary changes in the way we treat this disease,” he told residents at the forum.

Just heard of another friend gone.

We don't do a very good job of helping people with addiction issues here in the US. Maybe it's our once-upon-a-time Puritan heritage or something, but we seem to just want to throw people in jail.

It doesn't seem to be helping.

I hope the folks in Glosta are able to move beyond "poised" and into "achieved". Best of luck to them.