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October 18, 2014

Comments

NV, saying "my boyfriend wouldn't like it" works for guys who are being hit on, too. So maybe it isn't gender so much as the existance of a third party which is relevant.

wj:

But it also means that someone who would like to go straight after "paying his debt to society" probably won't be able to.

One of the most eye-opening experiences in my life was living next to an ex-con, sincerely making an honest effort. And the never ending pile of crap that was shoveled his way.

I thought our justice system needed reform before that. But after meeting him, the absolute kafkaesque absurdity of entire system became apparent.

That you think we used to be more accepting of change of heart is hopeful. If nothing else, it means society has that capacity.

I'd be more hopeful if I saw any sign of willingness to even contemplate change. But "tough on crime" seems to be pretty locked in -- with politicians trying hard to look tougher by proposing ever more draconian punishments for ever more "offenses."

Indeed, that is my one reservation about ending the War on Drugs. I just don't know where the politicians will turn their eyes for a replacement demon.

Does anyone want to go to bat for these fun and games: http://fckh8.myshopify.com/?

wj: I'd say a man saying "I have a boyfriend/husband" is invoking a significantly different set of assumptions than a woman saying it. A woman might well be able to dissuade the aggressive party by invoking a girlfriend, but I'd strongly suspect in many cases she'd still be subject to more continued attention (or possibly abuse in its place) than the man invoking a man. I do agree it's an imperfect example, though, because there are other dynamics in play, and is too hypothetical to make meaningful judgments about. Would it be better to cite an example of the phenomena of women in a group being subject to street harassment, but not if there's a single male in the group? Granted, it's still a fuzzy and highly abstract example.

Anyway, the point was less the details of the examples and moreso that I think that was more what DocSci was referring to as opposed to privilege when invoking the concept of women as less than full persons.

"This is the same dynamic that allows Clive Bundy and Donald Sterling to be kicked about, allowing us to be assured of our own correctness."

Posted by: liberal japonicus

I'm sorry, but how was Clive Bundy 'kicked about'?
The man didn't pay his rent for decades, held off the police with force, and is *still* out of jail and breathing.

Harald K: " Thus you've got Christina Hoff Sommers and Cathy Young jumping in (resident feminists at AEI and Cato respectively), as well as Milo Yiannopoulos of Breitbart and the right wing lawyer and musclehead Mike Cernovich - the two latter having been quite derisive towards gamers in the past. They do not have issue ownership, but you bet they would like to."

Christina Hoss Sommers is not a feminist; she's a professional 'woman against feminism'.


The rest are also professional right-wing activists. Taking their word, presence or stance as indicative of 'women', in general, is like taking Clarence Thomas' stance as ndicative of blacks in America.

As for 'both sides', there is one side which is lying and terrorizing and threatening, and one side which isn't.

It actually is a very simple situation, despite the efforts of many to spin complications.

McK: what are we being asked to go to bat for? Do you mean the obnoxious video spouting banal, dumbed-down soundbytes in a way that's supposed to be "edgy" but ends up just being grating? Or am I missing something there?

Again, that was my take on what DocSci was saying...

and i assumed she was talking about stuff like "man" v "woman", "male" vs "female", "he" being the default singular pronoun, normal bikes vs "girl's" bikes; ie. all the subtle ways there are things and then modifications of those things for women.

and there's the similar phenomenon where white is the default color, and anyone else is a special case.

so, white males belong to the default group. everyone else is a special case of some kind.

Christina Hoss Sommers is not a feminist; she's a professional 'woman against feminism'.

No, no, no, Barry, I have it on good word from countless MRAs who recently discovered her that she's an "equity feminist", which is a REAL feminist as opposed to the misandrist "gender feminists" that run our matriarchy. See, you're just trying to pull a "no true Scotsman", and as any fool can tell you, just because you're born, bred, raised, and living in Wales doesn't mean you're not just as much a Scotsman as a person who's never set foot out of Edinburgh.

Again, that was my take on what DocSci was saying,

and i assumed she was referring to the way male is assumed to be the default in all kinds of subtle ways: "man" v "woman", "male" v "female", "he" being the default singular pronoun, "bike" vs "girl's bike", etc.. there are things and then there are modifications of those things for women.

and there's the similar phenomenon whereby white is assumed to be the default race and anyone else is a special case.

so a white male is the default. anyone else is a special case of some kind.

FYTP

(Gah, sorry, that last sarcastic invective was unnecessary; while the infuriating number of times I've seen Sommers invoked in discussions online in the last two weeks might explain it, it still doesn't justify it.)

I just don't know where the politicians will turn their eyes for a replacement demon.

Women who don't mow their lawn? http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/10/16/woman-sent-to-jail-for-overgrown-yard/

Judge Vann set a follow-up hearing in November to check Holloway’s progress and suggested that additional jail time may be added if the city isn’t satisfied with her lawn efforts.

"...and as any fool can tell you, just because you're born, bred, raised, and living in Wales doesn't mean you're not just as much a Scotsman as a person who's never set foot out of Edinburgh."

Posted by: Nombrilisme Vide

And in this case, have as their profession f*cking over Scotts on a daily basis.

might explain it, it still doesn't justify it.

All sorts of people are walking back comments.

Another reason to like ObWi.

cleek, good point. I tend to be resigned enough to take all that for granted at this point, and so I may very well have been digging for far deeper meaning than I needed to be. Although I suppose it's not entirely impossible we could also both be right, your simpler (but still wonderfully depressing) explanation seems the more likely one.

Another: "if there was a single marker for having been dealt a tough hand, it would be being born gay."

Posted by: russell "How about a gay, black junkie with one eye?

And yet, the man is a legend."

Over on Cracked.com, one of their recurring series is (the actual name varies) 'Guys who done such tough things that you want to crawl under your bed and never come out just for reading about them'.

In one case, back in the 1800's, this guy was given a (laughter here) 'sporting chance' by some Indians who weren't real sportsman like.

They gave him a running start.

Naked.

They chased him on horseback.

He eluded their pursuit by climbing over snow-covered mountains.

Naked.

He then walked 200 miles to civilization.

Naked.

Now, how much money would we have to offer *you* to do this?

What odds?

50-50?

51-49?

two things:

In the internet age you not only don't get to change your mind, but often you don't get to change what others say you believe.

Not to even mention the impossibility of the more normal process of views being held less (or sometimes more) strongly over time becoming different only in distant retrospect.

Every interaction demands one take a side, and in the absence of taking one, one is assigned.

Second, I am almost always defined as the worst half of my relationship. As are most men. I was saved from my abhorrent pubescent ways by my wives, and will be forever chastised for not being adult enough. Yet no one ever complains that I am only a full human being in relation to a woman, who makes me better, drives me, keeps me in line, and is always assumed to be better, more caring, more thoughtful, less rash, than I can ever be. Not to mention the thousand times or so I was put in my place in a bar much to the amusement of her friends(and mine).

thousand or so *times*

Married? I was born married!

And, I just hate it when those women can't agree on what to complain about. You would think they aren't frigging partial human clones after all.

Barry: "The Run Of The Arrow"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050915/reviews

Marty wrote:

"I was saved from my abhorrent pubescent ways by my wives,"

Were these consecutive wives, or concurrent ones working as a tag team to straighten you out?

It takes a village.

Take my village ... please.

I'd say a man saying "I have a boyfriend/husband" is invoking a significantly different set of assumptions than a woman saying it.

Fair enough. My phrasing was, perhaps, not entirely serious.

But a man saying "I've got a wife/girlfriend" (the more exact parallel) will also find that useful. Granted, a man is less likely to find himself being hit on, and so have fewer occasions to use it. But it does happen, and in my experience (and inexperience) can be difficult to handle as well. Invoking a third party stops it a lot better than anything else (short of direct insult).

cleek, not to argue about the cultural default assumptions. But it does occur to me that you could make a logical case regarding "man" v "woman", "male" v "female" that both could signify the latter term indicates being the former group and more -- i.e. better.

Not saying that is the case. Just that the mere form of the words doesn't prove anything one way or the other about assumed superiority.

Barry, John Colter's feat was out-running the Indian runners. Had his pursuers been on horseback, the only problem would be to outrun/evade them for the couple of miles. Over a long distance (like over the mountains), most reasonably fit adults can walk a horse into the ground. Far harder to outrun other human runners.

But a man saying "I've got a wife/girlfriend" (the more exact parallel) will also find that useful. Granted, a man is less likely to find himself being hit on, and so have fewer occasions to use it.

Well, and the woman is more likely to face persistence in the face of invocation of a third party regardless of the hypothetical third's gender simply because of gendered societal expectations about the propriety/attractiveness of "assertiveness" and/or gender stereotypes regarding proclivities for forthrightness (i.e., whether they're just "playing hard to get"). But while that's an area rife with problematic attitudes, it doesn't directly relate to the "full personhood" issue.

Indeed. I'd say it reflects more the simply fact that the male in either encounter is more likely to be physically larger. And, therefore, more able to physically resist any continuing pressure. Which may be an unfortunate biological inequity, but isn't a cultural sexism one.

cleek, not to argue about the cultural default assumptions. But it does occur to me that you could make a logical case regarding "man" v "woman", "male" v "female" that both could signify the latter term indicates being the former group and more -- i.e. better.

In a vacuum, that argument is solid. In practice, you end up with "man" equaling "person" and "woman" equaling "woman" (e.g., policeman = police officer, but policewoman = specifically female police officer), and it pretty much goes from there. Normal versus exceptional, and all things being equal, in practice being the exception is usually not positive.

via Balloon Juice, this:

https://medium.com/the-cauldron/why-gamergaters-piss-me-the-f-off-a7e4c7f6d8a6

I'd say ... case closed.

Now if this guy can be set loose on the bullying "pickletits" who are about to take over the Senate to initiate the murder of their fellow Americans.

I'd rather be chased while barefoot through thorn deserts by Comanches on horseback.

Barry asked
"how was Clive Bundy 'kicked about'?"

'kicked about' was a phrase I used to try and get across the idea that both he and Sterling were held up to be the problematic cases that could be held up to opprobrium while the rest of society can safely assure themselves that they aren't like them, so therefore America is color-blind.

The conversation has moved on a bit, but that dynamic, of being able to call out the outliers to preserve the group and thereby prevent any examination of group is a double edged sword. When it applies to the majority group, it becomes a way to safely elide examination of basic precepts. When applied to a minority, it becomes a way to force that group into patterns of behavior that are 'acceptable'. This isn't to say that we should go to one extreme of holding an entire group responsible for the actions of one person or a small group or the other extreme of assuming that everyone is an independent actor and no one can be judged on the actions of another. This is just to point out that the majority is a lot like house rules, in that the house always wins.

I had a feeling that was the meaning of your rather mysterious, but cunningly ironic comment, lj.

Two comments.

You're giving my comment credit for way more substance than was actually intended. Basically, you could read my comment as "I have nothing of substance to contribute to the thread, but hey - James Booker!!"

Sorry for the drive by!

I do thank you for assuming I had something significant in mind.

McKinney: The only meaningful assistance would be financial, direct or indirect. The socially/competence-challenged subset of society is one of many unmet needs, from the progressive view, with claims on the taxpayer. You have the poor-for-other-reasons, the lower middle class, the disappearing middle class, the blue collar worker, the uninsured, the elderly, infrastructure, clean energy etc, etc, etc, all claiming on the national treasury. I have no idea how to allocate the money.

I guess I'm asking, in your view, does a low innate ability child born into a sh1tty family deserve any assistance from society at all? Since, as you note, they mean a "hell of a lot more" than skin color when it comes to success in life.

@mckinneytx--i'm certainly not suggesting it's impossible to be a loser in the easy mode, just recognizing the privilege that goes with it, as well as the difficulties involved in surpassing the harder settings.

@nombrilisme vide--i tend to see the issues involved in marginalizing women's opinions and thoughts as being bound up in the privilege society gives to men, especially white men. i may well have interpreted docsci's phrasing wrongly because of that.

You're giving my comment credit for way more substance than was actually intended.

Inadvertent substance? Accidental heft? Profound depth, unintentionally found?

What Russell didn't intend, is another way of putting it.

Not saying that is the case. Just that the mere form of the words doesn't prove anything one way or the other about assumed superiority.

i'm not talking about superiority, necessarily: just default vs modification. whatever those prefixes mean (or meant when they first started being used) they are used to modify "man" and "male". woman and female are derived from masculine words.

Inadvertent substance?

I wish I could take credit for inadvertent substance, but I'm afraid I cannot.

I have tried it around the house once or twice, but my wife sees right through it every time. :)

So that would presumably mean that Germany and Austria (Herren and Frauen vs. men and women) would then have less gender-based problems than the English-speaking world. Anyone know if that is actually the case? Hartmut?

It was a problem back in Roman times even:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUBAx8jbYNs

If folks think finding gender neutral terms in English is tough, try Spanish. Every noun is either masculine or feminine and the default on all plural nouns is masculine unless all of the group being described are either women or feminine nouns. For example, if there are 20 women and one man in a group, the masculine "ellos", not the feminine "ellas" would be used in place of "they" or "them". The same would hold if the speaker was describing a mixed group of objects, some masculine and some feminine, if twenty were feminine and one masculine, the masculine form would apply.

So, would it be cultural imperialism for English-speaking feminists to insist that Spanish-speaking cultures reinvent themselves and their language to conform to gender neutral principles?

Ah, into the works a spaniard has been thrown.

Relevant data:

http://www.pewinternet.org/files/2014/10/PI_OnlineHarassment_102214_pdf.pdf

I don't have particular thoughts on any of the results. Just saw it in my newsfeed and thought I would share.

IIRC, German is a gendered language also.

English was gendered until the 1200s.

So, would it be cultural imperialism for English-speaking feminists to insist that Spanish-speaking cultures reinvent themselves and their language to conform to gender neutral principles?

It depends.

"So would it be cultural imperialism for English-speaking feminists to insist that Spanish-speaking cultures reinvent themselves and their language to conform to gender neutral principles?"

This question raises yet more weighty questions.

First, counselor, I presume this line of questioning has some relevance to the case being tried before us, which at this point, even the Court has forgotten both the charges and who the defendant and plaintiffs are? Bailiff, read the entire thread back to me!

If twenty teenaged wetbacks rumored by Texas militia members to be prayer-rug toting ISIS warriors infected with Ebola cross the Rio Grande into Texas and nineteen of them are Hispanic female teenagers and only one is a male Hispanic teenager and they are gunned down from a helicopter like gooks by Governor Rick Perry, who then turns to his p.r staff person videoing the carnage for the 2016 election ads, turns his Rangers cap back around bill-forward and drawls: "I'll make these illegals my bitches", will the term "bitches" be translated in the next days' Mexico City newspapers as "ellos", not "ellas", and how does the one male wetback feel about the lack of gender neutrality in Perry's speech patterns, and further, will Rush Limbaugh and 19 conservative media hotties (http://www.rightwingnews.com/special/the-20-hottest-conservative-women-in-the-new-media-2013-edition/ ) mind if I refer to all twenty of them as fly-blown pig-filth, big swinging dick right bastards, to a man, in twenty languages for, well, just about every reason?

If we made a Hollywood movie of cultural imperialism insisting that Spanish-speaking cultures reinvent themselves and their language to conform to gender neutral principles, which actors would play the representative cultural imperialists and which would play the male and female representatives of Spanish-speaking cultures?

Since Natalie Wood and Eli Wallach (both voice-overed for the singing parts) would obviously be handed the Spanish-speaking roles (once again denying Katy Jurado and Cantinflas their rightful places), I guess we'd be stuck with Natalie Wood and Eli Wallach also playing the cultural imperialists.

Yes, yes, we have made progress and it will be interesting to view the twists:

http://deadline.com/2014/06/mgm-looking-to-re-team-denzel-washington-and-antoine-fuqua-in-mgms-magnificent-seven-remake-740662/

For a cinematic switcheroo, maybe we can get this guy to play the Americano Texan militia members gunning down wetbacks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ

"So, would it be cultural imperialism for English-speaking feminists to insist that Spanish-speaking cultures reinvent themselves and their language to conform to gender neutral principles?"

Let's revisit.

Yes, it would be.

I suggest Spanish-speaking feminists in Spanish-speaking cultures demand their languages conform to gender neutral principles, though if Gloria Steinem showed in support of the movement, I'm not sure which side of the border she'd be in danger of being shot in the head by the malignant caucus in the gaming community.

But, a further question, in the interest merely of argumentation.

Is the male superiority saturating the Spanish language "politically correct" or "politically incorrect"?

Would efforts to make the language more gender-neutral be "politically correct" or "politically incorrect"?

Just trying to get to the bottom of this made-up bullsh*t term, "political correctness".

Would right-wing death squads in Mexico and Central and South American countries who began targeting (sticking American-supplied weaponry up their vaginas and pulling the triggers before they threw them from planes into the Atlantic Ocean) these obviously commie-inspired feminists (via Cuba, we'll be told) who dared correct the previously held political correctness of the Spanish language receive back channel aid and weapons from, say, a winking Marco Rubio Administration, with the crates containing the weapons dropped into right-wing encampments labeled in English because of English-only laws passed by the 144th Congress?

Would male gamergaters with their now well-established anti-woman prejudices find it to be cultural imperialism if a female Spanish-speaking Mexican, played by Natalie Wood, instructed them to stop referring to female feminist gamers as "cunts", who require killing?

If Phyllys Schlafly and a prominent male gamergater, both well-known dickhead vermin in my gender neutral pidgin English, met for lunch in a Mexican restaurant and retired to the restrooms, to be confronted with the Senors and Senoritas signs, what conversation would ensue:

Schlafly: You go ahead into the Senoritas, gamergater, because I'm a stander and you are obviously a sitter.

Gamergater: It could be worse, Phyllis, as you have pointed out, the signs could be in Kenyan and the Obamas might have been here before us and wiping their fat black asses on the toilet seats to deliberately spread the Ebola virus because they want us to be more like Africa."

Schlafly: Gamer, honey, this is one time I could use a unisex bathroom, because then maybe you could help me reach the zipper on my bunny suit."

In closing, always be closing, and apropos of nuttin, I thank all Republicans who voted for the McCain/Palin ticket in 2008 and very nearly placed the pig filth (gender neutral, but I owe a deep apology to pigs) Palin family, the girls and the boys and their delightful racist fellow partiers) right next to the button that would have blown all of us up by now.

Yes, yes, I know, the tax cuts would have made up for the nuclear Holocaust.

This comment is a riff on McKT's comment and has nothing to do with him, a reasonable man, but I hope will be taken into the black sadistic hearts of the right-wing filth who lurk at OBWI, probably with Erick Erickson's IP address.

Aye, it depends. It'd be easy for such a call to be extremely tone-deaf and ill-informed, though I'm not certain any such call should be labeled cultural imperialism sight unseen. Externally imposed feminism is a messy, dangerous thing because of this, and indeed a lot of excessively "theory-heavy" academic thought in general tends to be vulnerable to myopia and severe blindness regarding the degree to which they're bringing cultural baggage into their "universal" works. Differences in language is a traditional area for particularly egregious examples of this to manifest.

OTOH, even if the alleged issues and concerns caused/aggravated by linguistic constructs in one culture aren't absent in another, that alone can't be taken as proof that the alleged linguistic problem isn't problematic, for basically the precise same reasons.

FWIW, francophone feminists have often strove to add female gendered titles much the same as anglophones have sought to abolish them.

*in another whose language lacks the "problematic" features

blah blah blah

Let's revisit.

Yes, it would be.

blah blah blah

Some days, this is all I get. But I agree with every word that I got.

I disagree with one of the blahs, the middle one I think.

As Rick Santorum said, the blahs will get you every time.

More blahs, from The Education of Henry Adams:

"The Southern secessionists were certainly unbalanced in mind -- fit for medical treatment, like other victims of hallucination -- haunted by suspicion, by idee fixes, by violent morbid excitement; but this was not all. They were stupendously ignorant of the world. As a class, the cotton planters were mentally one-sided, ill-balanced, and provincial to a degree unknown."

No one learned a useful lesson from the Confederate school except to keep away from it. This, at one sweep, the whole field of on instruction south of the Potomac was shut off; it was overshadowed by the cotton planters, from whom one could learn nothing but bad temper, bad manners, poker, and treason."

We're stuck with these pig filth, even now:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/reagan-aide-calls-for-southern-secession

One can only hope THIS happens simultaneously:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/south-florida-wants-to-be-the-51st-state-because-of-climate-change-worries-20141023

I mean, if southern and other states, and the Supreme Court, want to deny the voting franchise yet again this election cycle, then bring on the dogs of war and violence.

There are so many millions of wonderful, open-minded people in the former confederacy. The folks who own Husk restaurant in Charleston, for one small example. So many of them are armed. Why are the worst among them, the enemies of everything this country stands for, the ones who rise to elective office, and are specifically encouraged to by one particular party, and to powerful media positions, like McKinnon and so many of his filthy vermin ilk, permitted to flourish after these near on 250 years without being confronted with loaded weapons by their decent white and black, straight and gay armed neighbors and finally, as Lincoln neglected to do, eliminate these internal enemies?

They threaten daily on any chosen media outlet to kill the rest us because they imagine some offense to themselves and/or seek to form governments to diminish our freedoms.

That goes for the rest of the country too, since the Confederacy has leaked as far north as Wasilla.

Ya know, streiff, one of the murderous filth over at redstate, wrote in a post on the threat of gay marriage to his tender fascist tendencies and his apparently shaky marriage the other day that he could be convinced to institute the death penalty nationwide for the crime of sodomy.

Can you imagine the invasive bureaucratic fascist state that would be required by government-hating streiff to enforce this directive?

As I've said before about the Republican Party, there is only one language they, as Newt Gingrich would say, "fundamentally" understand, and that is the language of gunfire.

Why do you think all of them have been armed by the NRA, including their like-minded gamer killer twits?

Because they know what's coming to them.

so, are you geek homos ready to admit that you were wrong about Michael Brown, unga bunga coates and every other misconception you hold about phoney black oppression?

Darren Wilson will be exonerated shortly.

We can get pretty worked up around here from time to time. But that 7:54 post is seriously over the top.

invoke them, and they will come.

It's like a seance for vermin tighty whitey pig filth.

Don't ban tighty whitey. Let's make OBWI more in the image of Republican America.

Got any more, tighty whitey?

Or do you require 20 minute intervals for your internet jackoff sessions? I bet more, when your taking breaks from massaging Eerick Erickson's prostate gland, NTTIAWWT.

It's a one-off, isn't it, from your mother's basement, who is on medicaid, you piece of parasite shit. Are you Moe Lane's ugly brother, I mean uglier?

Or are you the campaign volunteer who loads Joni Ernst's concealed carry weapon to shoot federal employees who show up in her state to enforce Obamacare regs, especially the ones that allow Americans with premeditated terminal conditions to die with a little insured dignity, despite the vermin republican death wish for them, and maybe a train ride through republican gated communitiesfor some sadistic track side heckling, you fuck.

You haven't been laid laid lately have you, except by livestock?

Do not ban him, or her.

Let it answer, because I'm not done yet.

word salad, flight of ideas, Countme-in, you sound like a bi-polar manic phase or psychotic. Take your meds. Achieve therapeutic blood levels and we'll talk.

That, or like blacks, your IQ is 1.5 standard deviations below the white mean (and even more below the Asian mean). Life must be tough when you are functionally retarded. You just can't keep up and you either quit and get nasty and arrested or you do the right thing and go back to what you're good at, sports, singing and dancing or, for the most part, picking cotton.

Seems you've chosen a bit of giving up in the form of alcoholism and singing and dancing in the form of incoherent posts that are, I must admit, mildly amusing, though of no intellectual value. Kind of like heyba wanba mamba Coates.

That's it. I might tolerate the ignorant bigotry. But someone who cannot appreciate the Count? Unacceptable!

true dat. But to be sure, I'm sure it makes more sense in the German original. Still, auf Wiedersehen, mächtig Kaukasier!

See, I knew a frequent racist, homophobic, but still a heterophobic onanist, because you suck your own dick, not hat there is anything etc ... your only flexibility in the affairs of the human race, and also true lurking representative of the republican party, who would reveal itself, like Regan awaking to vomit all over Father Karras during the exorcism, a sport that I'm good at, sport.

My alcoholic, bipolar arrest record and sports fandom is there I'm sure, on the internet, for all to see, but how does that prevent your irresistible urge to shampoo my liberal, commie crotch, or to shoot me, or to pick cotton from the plantation I'm going to plant on your grave.

Come and get it. Is that you standing under the streetlight across the street, you milf?

This dancing you speak of .. I've been thinking it would be nice to dance, haven't been lately. W

Wanna go?

By the way, I appreciate your acknowledgement, whitey kikekiller, you forgot the jews you republican vermin, of lj's superior Asian I.Q levels above the mean, though on the other MEAN scale, conservative dingleberry harvester, you are at the top of the tippy top of the fascist Bell Curve.

Your people will be in my Congress in two weeks.

I hope your hated, affirmative action, multi-asshole government bureaucracy protects them.

the conservative id has been let loose.

and they wonder why minorities avoid them.

Um, subtractive masculinity isn't created by men, it's created by women. Women tend to not find men sexually attractive when those men are associated with activities in which women regularly participate.

Tell you what, I will believe addressing subtractive masculinity can be productive when you can convince me that a 40 year old female CEO is going to take home and bang a male 18 year old waiter just because she thinks he's cute.

If you cannot convince me of that, this entire post is nothing more than you wringing your hands while complaining about how much you hate reality

when you can convince me that a 40 year old female CEO is going to take home and bang a male 18 year old waiter just because she thinks he's cute

are you asserting that older women don't pick up young men, or that women don't have one night stands ?

that older women don't pick up young men, or that women don't have one night stands

Yeah, I didn't get that either. I can't say I know "40 year old female CEO"s specifically, but I do know women that pick up younger men and have one night stands. Would an atty or dr satisfy you? Or does it have to be a CEO?

The existence of racism in America hinges on the guilt of Darren Wilson. If he is innocent, racism is dead.

geek homos

Leading off an argument with ad hominem is all the rage on todays innerwebs. But it doesn't really count for much here.

Read and comply with the posting rules, and/or begone.

word salad

The Count is making a point in there somewhere. If you didn't get it, he'll perhaps make it a different way. I like to think of him as an abstract artist, working in prose.

I will believe addressing subtractive masculinity can be productive when you can convince me that a 40 year old female CEO is going to take home and bang a male 18 year old waiter just because she thinks he's cute.

I will believe in ____ if you can convince me that _____ is not really an effective gambit. For one thing, not many people here care what you do or don't believe.

If you can't wrap your head around that there are perhaps distinctly different kinds of influences (borne by, among other things, expressed approval or disapproval) from male and female gender groups on any given person, maybe you need to think again.

I tend to disagree with a lot of what Dr. Science posts regarding cultural stuff, mostly due to (I think) that some of her paradigms are markedly different than their counterparts over here on my side of the screen. Sometimes I comment on these areas of disagreement, as I did in this thread, and sometimes I don't. But I don't ever, ever expect or demand agreement from her or others.

This holds in matters of opinion. In matters of fact, there really isn't any arguing other than presentation of factual refutation.

Oh. LJ already canned mighty whitey. Interestingly, and completely unshockingly, mw's IP is fairly close to IP addresses that former commenter "blackhawk" has used.

It's a big subnet, but it makes you go hmmmm, when you have a few seconds you care to waste.

the conservative id has been let loose.

Not really. Mighty Whitey is no more representative of conservatives than Sean Penn or Michael Moore or any one of dozens of others are representative of liberals.

Between the 40-year-old female CEO trolling for 18-year old skateboarder servers at IHOP (when does THAT movie stream on Netflix?) and Mighty Whitey stacking up against Sean Penn or Michael Moore, I need to take all of my equivalency meters into the shop for recalibrating.

I have no problem with imagining a 40-year old female as a maneuvering swine like some of her male counterparts, but the proposed setup is a little hinky.

Maybe a 24-year old waiter at an upscale bistro serving risotto to the female on her third glass of chardonnay after she's been roughed up by some demanding Wall Street analysts at the shareholders' meeting because earnings were a penny short this quarter.

Then we can move quickly to all of the familiar tropes of her asking if he would like to clean her pool this weekend as he wheels the dessert tray over and gallantly retrieves her cloth napkin from under her table, cracking his forehead on the edge of the table in an endearing manner, as she removes one of her high heels, kneads her foot and declares her need to get off her feet sooner rather than later.

Now we're cooking.

Still, given the state of the job market, I suspect the guy would be angling for a job at her company, one with healthcare benefits his current employer probably denies him, although certainly all of the other perks of having a friend with the other benefits on our minds would loom large in his legend.

As to Mighty Whitey's equivalents on the left, I'd lean more toward whichever of the Kardashians harbors cracked dreams of a socialist paradise to relieve them of the pressure of whoring themselves out in the supermarket tabloids, or maybe that ONE guy during the Occupy protests caught on camera crapping on the car fender who, by the way, was actually held up as "representative" of the left on a couple of cable news networks.

I mean, say what you will about Penn's and Moore's political views, but they have actually accomplished a few things in their lives besides referring to "homos" and "unga bunga" Coates (is that Tarzanspeak or just the ravings of your ordinary and quite representative and boorish, racist, homophobic, and no doubt drunk Republican candidate for State Representative in any number of state legislative elections -- as we speak -- tweeting his real feelings in the wee hours and still polling within the margin of error, now THAT represents) on the internet.

Maybe Alec Baldwin would be an equivalent representative on the left, given his penchant for projectile vomiting rancid language.

Maybe I'm Tighty Whitey's equivalent on the left, but I work at it. It doesn't come naturally, like it does for him/her/it.

Here's who is NOT representative of the so-called conservative movement's current crop of Steve King, racist, homophobic, and misogynist candidates for national, state, and local representative offices who represent in word and deed Mighty Whitey's charming point of view:

MckT, Slart, Sebastian, and the other decent conservatives who are regulars here. Neither does today's Republican Party represent you in your common human decency, regardless of our differences on substantive issues.

I suspect if any of you ran for elective office on what is now inaccurately termed the Republican ticket, the lot of you would be instantly challenged in the primaries and lose badly to any number of the truly representative John Birch Society offal Erick Erickson and company could dredge up from their bottomless manure pile of horror show freaks, and the Koch Brothers would weigh in for the freaks with a million dollars to every one dollar you guys could convince me to donate to your campaigns.

Count, your last two paragraphs pretty much nail it. Most of us conservatives here would have a rough time in Republican primary for not being conservative (actually reactionary) enough. But then, so would Ronald Reagan or Barry Goldwater if they tried to run today. (Not to mention Gerald Ford, or George H. W. Bush, or Eisenhower.)

Mighty Whitey is no more representative of conservatives than Sean Penn or Michael Moore or any one of dozens of others are representative of liberals.

as soon as GOP chairmen stop getting busted for sending racist emails, and we no longer see regulars here on ObWi seriously pushing the idea that blacks are poor because they just don't work hard enough, and we no longer see "conservatives" leap to defend whichever racist or black-murdering yahoo who grabs Sean Hannity's attention, i'll stop believing trolly here isn't tapping into something that runs deep through mainstream conservatism.

it's not like trolly up there is saying anything substantially different than what you can find anywhere on any "conservative" site or radio show, or around my living room when the Old Home State relatives pop in for a visit. he's just saying it a with a bit more zing than we usually see around here.

Not really. Mighty Whitey is no more representative of conservatives than Sean Penn or Michael Moore or any one of dozens of others are representative of liberals.

what trolly said was not substantially different from what we've seen conservatives argue here; nor is it much different from what you can find on any conservative website or radio show, or in the comments of any local newspaper's site.

blacks are poor because they're lazy and Asians are the proof that minorities have it great? that gets propped up by some conservative every time the topic of institutional racism comes up here.

Brown was a thug and therefore Wilson is not just innocent but a hero! conservative dogma.

trolly sang the classics with a bit more gusto than we're used to hearing around here, but i'm sure everyone recognized the tunes.

what trolly said was not substantially different from what we've seen conservatives argue here

Even if true (which I don't buy), the way that he said it definitely was.

blacks are poor because they're lazy and Asians are the proof that minorities have it great?

If anyone here has said that, I must have missed it. I do seem to recall reading something to the effect that some blacks, and some whites, are poor because they are lazy. But that's as close as it gets. Even Marty when he is wound up doesn't go further IIRC.

I am absolutely open to the idea that maybe not everything that we were told about what happened in Ferguson was true. I am also absolutely open to the idea that maybe things will not turn out as rosy for Officer Wilson as people might think, based on recent information. I am, in short, of the wait and see persuasion.

Regarding race and intelligence, I am absolutely open to their being a correlation; I think that has been established. But the people who make race the cause of lower intelligence are being a little premature. There are other factors that correlate to race that could weigh heavily; factors that were inflicted on black people by white people.

Anyway. These thoughts don't make me conservative or liberal; they make me willing to look at not just the evidence that makes me have a good feeling. Kind of like this:

Sometimes.

If anyone here has said that, I must have missed it.

take a trip back to late Spring.

the echoes of that thread made me wonder, if only for a second, if our new visitor wasn't, in fact, Mr Bellmore yelling at us from the bottom of a fifth of Jack.

Even if true (which I don't buy), the way that he said it definitely was.

which is why i put that nice little metaphor at the bottom. sheesh.

cleek, say what you will about Mr. Bellmore, but I don't think he'd come back under any name but his own. I was actually thinking, given tone and subject, that it was the dearly departed informed observer/Blackhawk/what-have-you back to bother us anew.

Hmm, I appear to have been spamtrapped. Not that it's a big deal given the content of the comment, but still...

Regarding race and intelligence, I am absolutely open to their being a correlation; I think that has been established.

I agree. Black people vote 90+% for the party whose policies tend to benefit them; white people vote 60+% for the party whose policies tend to screw them. What more evidence do we need that, as a group, black people are smarter than white people?

Correlation is not causation, of course, but they often go together.

--TP

Correlation is not causation. But lack of correlation certainly suggests lack of causation....

cleek, I guess you are just too subtle for me. At least on a Friday afternoon. Obviously I need to get out and spend some quality time doing absolutely nothing....

Obviously I need to get out and spend some quality time doing absolutely nothing....

You'd be surprised how often that helps.

I just set three spam comments free. Given TOAF cleek's run-in with our spam filter, there are two things to be careful about.
-posting multiple comments after one gets hung up
-the interaction between the IP address you are posting to and if you are linking back to a blog or other website. cleek from hocb
changed the email addr on the comments, no luck. changed my name on the comments, no luck. changed web site, no luck. changed all three: luck! put website back to my blog, blocked.

caveat scriptor...

to be honest, i'm not seeing that a correlation between race and intelligence has been established.

the thing is, if you're talking about populations in the US, i doubt that there is any meaningful way that you can isolate the racial or ethnic heritage of enough people to make a persuasive case about the relationship of race to pretty much anything of interest.

what's "african heritage"? are you talking about folks from the maghreb, or west africa, or central africa? all represented in the "african american" population, and all different ethnic groups, equivalent to lumping swedes, italians, and turks into one big pile.

and how "african" do you have to be for your african heritage to be the cause of your apparent dopiness? 50%? 20%? 100%?

the pool of people who are demonstrably 100% any kind of ethnic extraction in this country is really small. that's especially so for american blacks, the last of whom came here directly from africa in the very early 19th C., and whose gene pool has been subject to corruption via violent rape for most of their sojourn here.

why not say that scot-irish people are genetically FUBAR? their gene pool is probably as well represented among american blacks as any african ethnicity. if the social backwardness of many quote-unquote redneck communities can be cited, there's a correlation between that ancestry and general bone-headedness at least as strong as that between african heritage and low IQ.

claiming that you can isolate and identify the effect of "african heritage" on the natural gifts available to the 12 or 13% of Americans who identify as "black" is foolish. leaving all of the many moral and ethical issues aside, from a "scientific" point of view, it's complete and utter crap.

some people want to blame black people for the numerous harms that have been done to them. they need a justification for the social problems faced by blacks, and the idea that the rest of us can't seem to stop treating blacks differently than everyone else is just not on the menu of acceptable reasons.

so, dark skin, big lips, and kinky hair must mean you're stupid. what other explanation could there be?

"why not say that scot-irish people are genetically FUBAR?"

The scot-irish people are genetically FUBAR.

There. I look forward to charges of political correctness, or political incorrectness, or whichever of those labels anyone wants to sling, with an explanation of what those words mean.

Especially the ones who made their living, and our miserable original sin, though certainly they weren't alone, as southern planters, and whose genetic ancestors now run for office as Republicans instead of as Democrats, like they used to when all white Americans, except for John Brown, were racist twits.

I'm 3/4 German. Surely the genetic and social inferiorities (advanced education, fathers present in every household, that maddening blondeness) endemic to my relatives cultural hardheadedness and their behavior toward Jews, blacks, homosexuals, Gypsies, Poles, (the list of the superior (to German) races, sexual orientation and nationalities goes on and on), ought to be looked into by Charles Murray .... Murray? Murray!, now there's a true Scotsman dead giveaway though I can't think what Richard Herrnstein's excuse was for overlooking the Aryan contribution to high IQ genocide quotients.

I can't think, given my genetic profile and the history of my people's psychopathic behavior toward the human race in general, clearly visible to the average bystander (goosestepping, German nose, Schubert on the iPod, the concealed Mauser, the vague aromatic residue of sauerkraut on my breath; alas I was skipped over when they handed out the gorgeous blue eyes) why I'm not immediately gunned down by the cops during routine traffic stops for making the wrong move to retrieve my papers from the glove compartment, because, you know, we Germans all look alike, well, except for the short squat, red-faced gauleiters with the riding crops riding in motorcycle sidecars.

Heck, even my Welsh grandmother, who during any conversations decades ago regarding German behavior during World Wars I and II, would practically spit on the plush carpet as she excoriated The Hun, gave the assembled Krauts, her husband (full-blooded), her sons, her daughter, and her 18 grandchildren a free pass on this predeliction (in the very genome, at the cellular level) for mass murder.

But if anyone brought up the subject of Aunt Ann's missing silver candle snuffer (one of many she owned), there would be dark mutterings of suspicion cast toward Pearl, the Aunt's black cleaning lady, because, ya know, THOSE people.


America is clearing making progress in the fight against prejudice, of all kinds, by kicking its ass.

Mighty Whitey, suffering from Ebola of the mouth, surfaces again:

http://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/10/24/watch-texas-airline-crowd-tackles-antigay-attacker

Now, when do the Republican candidates, officeholders, and big-money PACS across this country who feed Mighty Whitey's hate and indeed encourage him/her/it to take that hate into the voting booth get their asses kicked, and, I mean, physically?

And, I mean, a pile-on.

"clearly"

"the echoes of that thread made me wonder, if only for a second, if our new visitor wasn't, in fact, Mr Bellmore yelling at us from the bottom of a fifth of Jack."

Last I noticed, a few days ago, he was being disemvoweled over at Crooked Timber.

I don't think it was him, either. Brett has a certain mannered dignity to his ravings, plus he has the courage, as was pointed out above, to use him own name.

Maybe blackhawk or his iterations.

But since I invoked Redstate in this thread, on purpose, I'll nominate one of their minions.

The diminutive johnt, (not to be confused with John T., that iffy character who comments sometimes at TIO) comes to mind, given the viciousness, one of streiff's flying monkeys.

But there ae legions to pick from.

Was Mighty Whitey, Louis Gohmert who represents from Texas?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/23/1338660/-America-s-Dumbest-Congressman-says-gays-getting-massages-in-the-Army-will-lead-to-terrorism

This guy needs the same gang massage the guy in the airport received.

We really should consider the possibility that "mighty whitey" was a true troll in the Rush Limbaugh (or, if yu prefer, the George Wallace) tradition. Someone who spouts disgusting nonsense which he personally does not believe for the sake of the reaction he can get.

Personally, I feel that is even viler than someone who actually believes that sh*t.

wj, that observation is really interesting when you think about this in regard gamergate. How many of these people doxxing women would, if they were face to face with a woman at a party or something similar, would spout this stuff? Or, if confronted with it, would say they didn't really believe that, they were only trying to get a rise out of some other group of people, be they those who are trying to dictate what goes into games, those who don't think women can be sexy, or whatever other criteria they use. It's not hard to imagine a similar dynamic here.

This shouldn't be taken as trying to excuse them. As Vonnegut said in Mother Night: “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.” If you pretend to be an asshole, that probably makes you an asshole.

LJ,
I mentioned George Wallace for a reason. He has a reputation from his days as Governor of Alabama, shouting things like "Segregation today! Segregation tomorrow! Segregation forever!" But few people are aware that, the first time he ran for office, he ran as a liberal talking about improving race relations.

He lost to an ardant segregationist. And declared (pardon the language) "They out-niggered me. I'm never going to be out-niggered again." In short, he had already showed that he didn't actually believe the racist bile he spewed; he did it because that's what he thought it took to win elections.

No doubt there are those with objectionable views who wouldn't admit to them in person, or in from of a member of the group they scorn. But there are also those who dissemble in the other direction. When their doing so incites the bigotry of their audience, that is what I really object to.

Adolph Eichmann was said to be quite the entertainer and could do a wicked soft shoe if pressed.

Were he still around, he might fit right in as an audience fluffer and announcer for Limbaugh and any number of his ilk.

http://crookedtimber.org/2014/10/22/adolph-eichmann-funny-man/

wj, I knew that about Wallace. I just don't know what to do with it, given the republican political operatives like Lee Atwater and Tea Party types who studied Wallace's schtick for comedy pointers and its marquee appeal and are still entertaining us, with great success.

It's like being tickled and then raped by a bipolar clown. Gee, right up until the rape, that guy was funny!

Oddly enough, Arthur Bremer wasn't that impressed by Wallace's antics, only that the latter was famous enough to shoot. That's gotta be something -- to get an over-the-top reaction, but not because the shooter thought your material was particularly entertaining or convincing.

If Limbaugh is in fact an entertainer, I have hard-right Republican acquaintances who don't seem to get the joke.

One of the funny things about Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert is the number of Republicans who appear on or respond to their shows who don't get that they are the objects of ridicule and satire. It's hilarious, the absolutely clueless expressions on their faces as their neckties are set on fire and the whoopy cushion makes its farty sounds.

Until the last year or so, especially with Colbert, who is now pissing certain conservatives off, or whatever these people call themselves.

I will say that I think Sarah Death Palin believes every word she says, once she hears it come out her mouth, because the brain power required to spew nonsense and keep a straight face like Jack Benny because it's schtick is just not available to her.

Her humor is not unlike Eichmann's, inadvertent but it kills in certain parts of the country.

to be honest, i'm not seeing that a correlation between race and intelligence has been established.

Given that the concepts "race" and "intelligence" tend to be rather normative concepts...well, yup.

As always, thanks, Russell.

Count, you have to wonder how clueless someone can be to not understand what Colbert was doing. Especially after some lackwit invited him to perform at the Bush White House Correspondents' Dinner in 2006. Anyone who didn't realize after than has the brains of a rock. A very dumb rock.

"Personally, I feel that is even viler than someone who actually believes that sh*t."

I could be convinced that some of the political leaders and media personalities who fomented the slaughter of their countryman in Bosnia/Serbia and in Rwanda where Hutus slaughtered Tutsis started out their hate campaigns with a playful smirk on their faces and then things got out hand.

Vladimir Putin strikes me as a sort of impresario of insincere hamhanded comedy gone awry, which in turn he goes with because of the roar of the crowd and the smell of the greasepaint.

He tells his comedy writers "more Ukrainian rebel jokes, cut the conciliatory punchlines, and for God's sake, tell wardrobe we're going on shirtless from now on!"

It's instructive the Putin-love displayed by some quarters of the Republican Party, in defiance of the black President of their own f*cking country, which it isn't, by the way, and if they keep restricting the voting franchise across the country, they will find out in a hail of gunfire.

Yeah, I think there was a moment after the Bush White House Correspondents Dinner when too many conservatives said to each other, "I thought Colbert was one of us! Are you telling me that runt Greg Gutfeld's lame humor on FOX is all we've got?"

Entertainment, satire, or vermin murderous Republican pig filth of the sincere variety.

https://twitter.com/politiCOHEN_/status/525458055971229696/photo/1

Let's put the Nielsen people on it overnight, and maybe in the morning Diana Christenson can come up with a fall-lineup featuring murderous Republican marksman shooting Mexican kids crossing the border, Anne Coulter the Soothsayer, and a reality show featuring Barack Obama being lynched by FOX and Friends,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHzQis2fO0U

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