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April 01, 2012

Comments

Slarti's on a roll. Wins thread, IMHO.


then shot him. simply because the kid was black. and this is what "conservatives" defend.

Cleek: Are you watching NBC? Where this:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

Becomes:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

I'm defending nothing. Not till all the facts come in. I earlier commented on the under the breath epithet, but even that is suspect with what NBC and ABC have apparently done. Emperor for a day? Do a full investigation.

BTW, nothing wrong with Emperor for the Day, although that's a bit presumptuous. My brother and I always used the hypothetical "King for a Day." LA's traffic problems? No way a modern bureaucracy can fix it. Needs a dictator. Benevolent dictator, of course, and it would take at least one year.

lj: I had that same washer (3.1 FL Fri/ge/more) and to think I sold it for parts on Ebay instead of doing that! I'm showing that to my wife tonight just for the cathartic effect.

Funny, I thought more like this

That made me laugh out loud; thanks for helping confuse the people around me.

I was going to suggest this, but yours was better.

Not till all the facts come in.

What additional facts are you waiting for?

What difference would they make in your understanding of the situation?

If somebody comes forward to say yes, Zimmerman and Martin had words, but Zimmerman was walking peacefully back to his car when Martin hit him from behind with a bat, then I agree, that would change our understanding of the situation.

Other than that, I'm not sure how this is turns out to be anything other than what cleek described earlier.

also - it looks like we have groovy new Captcha gizmo, that does not work in Firefox, at least on a Mac Pro.

Folks having a hard time may want to try a different browser.

Riffing off of bc's last comment (NB: I don't have any confidence that he, I, or cleek have anywhere near a correct grasp of things, so add grains of salt as needed) as well as some other comments: if you make Martin a white kid, this maybe never happened. Unless you have the freshly-white Martin attack Zimmerman. If you make Zimmerman a black guy, maybe it still happens, but the outrage goes away. Change both of their skin colors and maybe it still happens, but the outrage goes away.

Subtracting Martin's blackness out changes a lot, I say, but reducing the whole mess to shot for being black subtracts (and I repeat myself, I know) far too much.

Personally I think justice would be best served if we didn't have e.g. bounties being set on Zimmerman, or hoodies with built-in gun pockets, or any commentary at all by Spike Lee. Or me.

Exit, stage left: me.

reducing the whole mess to shot for being black subtracts (and I repeat myself, I know) far too much.

I agree with this.

I don't see the race issue as being the thing that places the responsibility for Martin's death on Zimmerman. It's certainly what is driving the media circus, but the most you can say about it's role in this situation is that it's less likely that Martin would have caught Zimmerman's attention if he had not been black.

It may well have also been a factor in how the Sanford PD handled the investigation. Saying so is not wild speculation, it's supported by the history of the department and their relationship to the black community in Sanford. And that also drives quite a lot of the outrage. But on that matter I agree that we don't have enough factual information to say one way or the other. I'm glad the FL AG and the DOJ are pursuing it.

I find Zimmerman responsible in Martin's death not because he's white and Martin is black, but because, if you're going to carry a weapon, the burden of responsibility for how that weapon is used falls to you. And if you're going to employ deadly force, you need to have a damned good reason for doing so.

Period.

And "that guy was beating me in a fistfight" doesn't seem, to me, quite dire enough to shoot someone to death. Let alone when it's a fight that you provoked.

Knuckleheads shouldn't carry weapons. Unfortunately, there is no objective standard for 'knucklehead', so, also unfortunately, lots of knuckleheads carry weapons. Per the current understanding of the 2nd Amendment, nowadays we consider it their inalienable right, bestowed by their creator, to do so.

But the responsibility for what they do with their weapons belongs to them, and them alone. You may have an inalienable right to carry a weapon, but there is no inalienable right to provoke other people into fights and then shoot them if you lose.

It may be legally permissible in FL to do so, but it ain't a right.

There were many, many points in the narrative here where Zimmerman could have stood down. He did not do so, and it ended with him shooting Martin to death.

So, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of however the law in FL construes that to the side, Zimmerman is responsible for the death of Martin. And for "responsible" please read "at fault", because unlike in McK's hypothetical way upthread, Martin was not breaking into Zimmerman's house. He was walking home from the 7/11, and got into a fight with Zimmerman due to circumstances that Zimmerman himself caused.

WRS (Why type it out at this point?)

I was going to suggest this, but...

Dude!

If the following is likely, under "stand your ground" (I'm still rooting for Sebastian's position on this issue vis a vis this case, but his opinion has the unfortunate drawbacks of being eloquent, humane, and reasonable -- and in these waning, thick-tongued inarticulate (assert "broccoli" at every turn), inhumane, unreasonable moments of the United States -- that won't get you far) only the last 60 seconds of Zimmerman's perspective is what will count in this case.

Facts, sclmacts.

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/04/george-zimmerman-unlikely-ever-be-convicted-killing-trayvon-martin

Concealed carry and stand your ground laws, in fact, appoint everyone Emperor and executioner.

Unfortunately, Zimmerman's dictatorial perspective during the last 60 seconds of the encounter he pursued violated Brett Bellmore's first principle for Emperors:

"I'm simply asserting that, given dictatorial power, the only ethical response is to refuse to use it."

As a result, I demand a second day as Emperor, which will be sliced into 60-second intervals during which I lay waste with my perspective.

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