The Who was on first Friday open thread

by liberal japonicus

A fun article here about the Solutrean hypothesis. I love that one of the weapons in this argument is the phrase 'Iberia, not Siberia!'. The rhyme sounds like destiny to me.

Unfortunaely, with that age, it's not possible to adduce many affects in linguistic grouping, which is not the case for the Coastal Migration hypothesis, which is related to the Kelp Highway theory, and is contrasted with much older and more traditional Ice Free corridor theory, which was starting to show some problems. The Solutrean hypothesis a pretty radical theory, which I guess is part of the fun. 

So what wacky theories make your day?

Comments

[hairshirthedonist]

No theories, but I did see this headline after following the WaPo link:

"Jehovah's Witnesses Hurl Bibles at Pitbulls Attacking Grandma"

I can now say that getting out of bed was officially worth it.

[McKinneyTexas]

Cool links. I'm not that taken by the Solutrean hypothesis. There are only so many ways to whack a rock, it isn't surprising that two separate cultures, thousands of years apart, hit on a functionally identical process and kicked out dart points and knives that match very closely.

The bow and arrow developed independently in the two hemispheres. Why not stone tool technology?

As for wacky theories: Andrew Breitbart was murdered.

[hairshirthedonist]

The one thing that I find interesting is the dating. If I read correctly, they're finding stuff on the East Coast dating further back (as far as they can tell so far) than current widely accepted theories put people in the Americas, and on the other side of the continent.

Even if there's no Clovis connection, that's still something new. So Europeans may have gotten here (i.e. resonably close to my current location) first, even if they left or died off or whatever and had no connection to Native Americans as we know them today.

[McKinneyTexas]

So Europeans may have gotten here (i.e. resonably close to my current location) first, even if they left or died off or whatever and had no connection to Native Americans as we know them today.

There is a fair amount of evidence of pre-Clovis human activity in N America, but whether those people were from Europe is questionable, or at least, that's my take on the majority view.

[russell]

So Europeans may have gotten here ... first

What's really unclear to me when folks go on about this stuff is in what sense somebody who lived in the Iberian Peninsula or southwestern France 15-20,000 years ago can meaningfully be called "European", in any way that is relevant to anyone alive today.

[hairshirthedonist]

I don't personally think of them as European in the sense that, say, they were the ancestors of my Spanish or French ancestors, which they may or may not have been (more likely not would be my guess, not that it would matter either way).

I just take it to mean that they came from the place we now call Europe. So I guess I'm with you on that, russell, in that I don't impart meaning to it beyond that.

I sure as hell don't find it a source of pride as someone with at least mostly European ancestry, or that it somehow justifies Europeans coming along thousands of years later and stealing land from Native Americans.

[hairshirthedonist]

There is a fair amount of evidence of pre-Clovis human activity in N America, but whether those people were from Europe is questionable, or at least, that's my take on the majority view.

I think pre-Clovis activity is not considered to have come from Europe, but Clovis culture also isn't thought to have been the earliest coming from Central Asia.

What I got out of the article is that the dating they've done on the Delmarva findings puts it beyond at least the earliest of the widespread pre-Clovis settlements in the Americas (~15k years ago).

Considering the location of the findings, that's significant. If they found stuff going back 20k+ years in, say, western Canada, it wouldn't be such a big deal, I guess.

[russell]

I don't personally think of them as European

I wasn't thinking of you HSH, I was thinking more of the white supremacist neo-Odinist crowd.

Maybe even Pat Buchanan.

[Ugh]

I wasn't thinking of you HSH, I was thinking more of the white supremacist neo-Odinist crowd.

I've always wondered why they cared. Some sort of "that means North/South America was our land so we weren't taking it from Native Americans, we were taking it back!" As if that makes everything okay, or something.

[McKinneyTexas]

I don't personally think of them as European in the sense that, say, they were the ancestors of my Spanish or French ancestors, which they may or may not have been (more likely not would be my guess, not that it would matter either way).

Can anyone refer me to a read-able source on the unfolding ethnicity of the mid-east and Europe over time?

As for whether, for example, the cave painters of Lascaux were 'European', they were only in the sense of their location.

[sapient]

The theory that Europeans (in the sense of people who came from Europe) might have been able to navigate to North America is fascinating. I don't really have enough knowledge to be as skeptical as McKinney (although I'm sure there's reason for some skepticism - even the proponents of the theory aren't sure), and I certainly don't think that any political value needs to be attached to the finding.

It's fun to think about people having so little technology, and yet being so energetic and resourceful. Thanks for the post, liberal japonicus.

[russell]

The theory that Europeans (in the sense of people who came from Europe) might have been able to navigate to North America is fascinating.

There is still a living tradition of navigation, in canoes, without instruments, in the Pacific islands.

Navigators find fairly small island destinations across distances of hundreds or even thousands of miles, using a combination of celestial navigation and a knowledge of current and wave patterns.

The craft knowledge involved is often passed orally, and known by memory.

Here is an interesting discussion.

Historically the exploration of the Pacific is very recent - much, much later than the possible Stone Age travels of the Solutreans.

In terms of the technology involved, however, it is (or was) all handmade stuff, and no instruments. Just an intimate knowledge of the environment the navigators are in.

[liberal japonicus]

Well, this European was evidently a Sardinian.

[hairshirthedonist]

I can't help but initially reading "Solutreans" as sounding like "Soul Trains" everytime I see it. I must still be mourning Don Cornelius.

[McKinneyTexas]

Well, this European was evidently a Sardinian.

IIRC, the virtually inaccessible interior of Sardinia is peopled by a culture that is very, very different than Italians or historical Sardinians. Different language, physical characteristics, etc. It would be fascinating if these are a remnant population of pre-celt, pre-indo-european later immigrants.

HSH, there is a lot of scholarly work coming out directly linking the Lascaux culture with Mo Town Sound.

[j_h_r]

I keep reading this as Soul Train, and now I can't get the idea out of my head that the migration of peoples to America involved the most EPIC Soul Train Line in history.

Jeebus in spandex, that funky love groove spanned the GENERATIONS!

[chris y]

Logic dictates that the Solutreans almost certainly were ancestral to at least some modern Europeans. There they were; what else would have happened to them? 100% extinction is unlikely, far more probably they would have interbred to some extent with later groups coming into the area, and their descendents would have passed a small part of their gene pool down to the present day. (So they've probably made it to America by now.)

[joel hanes]

There are only so many ways to whack a rock, it isn't surprising that two separate cultures, thousands of years apart, hit on a functionally identical process and kicked out dart points and knives that match very closely.

McTex, I'd like to think that if you studied flintknapping a bit, and then studied the world's stone tool traditions, you would be embarassed to have made this remark.

The Solutrean tradition was a very high and sophisticated technology in stone tools, a distinctive characteristic of an entire culture. You could spend your entire life trying to produce a fine large blade (such as the ones shown at the site I've linked) and never succeed.

Scroll down the linked page to see a side view of a particularly fine leaf-point. Notice how thin the blade is, the large even flaking that shapes the faces.

[joel hanes]

Personally, I think it likely that the Western Hemisphere was "first peopled" many times, along many avenues, and that most of these settlements eventually met the same fate as the Viking settlements in Greenland and the English settlement at Roanoke.

Too-small gene pools don't make for thriving, expanding populations. Nor does a home cultural tradition that's ill-suited to the new land. People tend to attempt to re-create the lifeways they knew, even when climate and ecosystem are wildly different.

[Hartmut]

There is no reasonable doubt that stone age people had the technical skills to built ocean going vessels. Even Heyerdahl underestimated that (he overlooked the easy trick to make a reed raft/boat able to tack). The only question is whether they actually undertook the specific voyages or not. On that point Heyerdahl overplayed his hand (no genetic signs that e.g. Easter Island got settled from South America). For comparision, Roman ships would not have been able to do some of the trips.

[John M. Burt]

"Iberia not Siberia" could one day rank right up there with "nature vs. nurture" and "God's works and God's words" as rhymes which impair thought.

Russell, thank you for correctly identifying the racist Aesir-worshippers as "Odinists", as opposed to the Asatru, who follow the actual Nordic tradition of intermarriage and adoption (I happen to know one of the latter).

Joel Hanes, Vinland and Roanoke did not meet exactly the same fate. There is no genetic or historical evidence that the Vinlanders survived at all, while we know that Roanoke colonists were adopted by neighboring tribes because their descendants still have the same surnames.

[joel hanes]

no genetic signs that e.g. Easter Island got settled from South America

But, later and in the other direction, there are anomalously-dated chicken bones from South America that hint at a Polynesian landing before Columbus.

John Burt, thanks for the information about the survival of people from Roanoke. I had not known about that, and now I'll look into it. I was under the impression that "Croatan" was the sum of our knowledge of their ultimate fate.

[McKinneyTexas]

McTex, I'd like to think that if you studied flintknapping a bit, and then studied the world's stone tool traditions, you would be embarassed to have made this remark.

I haven't studied flintknapping, but I have looked, fairly extensively, at stone tools used in Europe, N America and N Africa. There is a lot of commonality, particularly when the medium is flint. I don't find overlap or even nearly identical techniques used continents apart particularly surprising.

[russell]

McTex, I'd like to think that if you studied flintknapping a bit, and then studied the world's stone tool traditions, you would be embarassed to have made this remark.

There is a lot of commonality, particularly when the medium is flint. I don't find overlap or even nearly identical techniques used continents apart particularly surprising.

I have no claim to make as far as expertise in flintknapping, but I'll weigh to say that I'm generally in agreement with McK here.

The tools created by the Solutrean industry apparently were, head and shoulders, of greater sophistication and quality than those of any near contemporary. They were, in fact, not actually examples of flint-knapping at all, but of a different stone-working technique altogether, see here under "pressure flaking".

That said, the same technique shows up over 50,000 years earlier in South Africa. Which, IMO, argues for independent discovery, by different people, at different times.

Some techniques are inherent in the material that you're working with. I.e., the material itself affords a particular repertoire of ways to work with and use it.

So, "only so many ways", which does not take away from the fact that some ways are extraordinary.

HSH, there is a lot of scholarly work coming out directly linking the Lascaux culture with Mo Town Sound.

LOL.

I knew those brothers were deep.

John Burt, thanks for the information about the survival of people from Roanoke. I had not known about that, and now I'll look into it.

Likewise.

Also for the information about Odinists vs Asatru, any intelligent distinction I made between the two was purely inadvertent. I'm glad to know more about it.