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February 18, 2011


"I've no doubt that all of the conservatives (with the exception of the occasional drive-by from john t. and other murderous Redrummers) at OBWI, in their varied approaches to conservatism, will provide shelter in their root cellars and attics to crithical tinkerer and other liberals here when the Serbian Becks, Ailes, Limbaughs, Levins, Norquists and the rest of CPAC finally loose the machetes and their other well-fondled and beloved weaponry on their enemies."

That didn't happen but in very very limited numbers. Barely any protection given by moderates due to extreme peer pressure.
While spending 3 months in concentration camps, one of the guards was my fairly good high school friend, i received 4 sandwiches accompanied with despise in the eyes. Maybe i got less beating and maybe he kept me alive confirming results of my interrogations but i can not know what happened behind closed doors. I know that he arranged the death of a math professor that failed him one year. The teacher that was in the same camp as me and died after numerous beatings stopped short of the last breath.

Peer pressure prevents the dialogue when emotions flare to extremes. Anyone dared to openly help was being killed by their own side.

Wisconsin will be on its way to being just like freaking Mississippi, only colder.

That's the actual plan, russell. Mississippi and Alabama are 'conservative' Valhalla, as they have been the entire time they've been states. I happen to know Mississippi pretty well. Lots of good people; state/local governments are an absolute piece of you-know-what. Plantation mentality. That's the plan for the whole country. God must love humble people because he made so many of them, ergo, it's good to be humble (poor and docile).

Serfdom is a kind of Freedom® - freedom from education, from aspiration, from complexity. In fact, serfdom is simplicity itself - so few of those pesky *options* to worry about. Let's just learn to accept it, people.

I thinkthat what the Republicvan party lacks is a sennse of the common good. An awful lot of Republican voters lack that, too.

Refusing to connect the dots is part of how peole rationalize support for the rightrwing agenda. Wilson's attack on collective barganing is not isolated, and not the agenda he ran on. As pointed out up thread, he ran on the usual Republican platitudes and hot air, no specifics about the unions, collective bargaining, or anything else realting to the currant controversy. Furthering the decline of the middle class probably was his real agenda since he's a Republican politician, but it is unlikely that he got elected on that platform.

Russel is correct to label this as "Norquistian". What Walker is doing is part of a larger picture, the larger picture of Republican efforts over the last thirty years to create deficits and then use th edeficts to destroy the social safety network, the unions, those government programs that keep people out of abject poverty like Socail Security, Medicare and Medicaid, and anything else that does not translate into support either for red state ecdonomic interests or the corporate donors.

So yes this fight is worth the levels of anger. In fact anger at the intellectual dishonesty, hypocrsy, and meanspiritness that is core to the rightwing approach to politics should have broken out long ago.

"Peer pressure prevents the dialogue when emotions flare to extremes. Anyone dared to openly help was being killed by their own side."

On the other hand, recently in Egypt, at the height of the unrest, Christians watched over Muslims as they prayed during the day.

All things are not equal.

"They can vote him(Walker) out in a few years if it doesn't suit them."

That would be true if this attempt is not about destroying the institutions that help Democrats. The unions are the main organizing factor for Democrat's vote. Effectively preventing them to get union dues and making them to spend the money and effort around survival every year will limit unions to effectively work on elections.
This is about destroying the Democrat's base, like it happened to ACORN, not about the budget. GOP is effectively working on permanent majority in power, very very effectively.


I noticed that this thread brought out some fighting spirit from participants I didn't expect (e.g., Anarch, Bernard Yomtov).

Paul Krugman today pretty much expresses my point of view on unions. They are just as subject to human foibles as any other institution but they are a necessary counterbalance to the power of capital.

In a prior thread McKinneyTexas and I sparred briefly on the subject of power. A Maoist would say it comes from the barrel of a gun. My view is that in our society more often (thank goodness!) it just derives from money.

The only lever labor has in this struggle is the threat to strike -- to withhold labor. That is what makes collective bargaining work.

Separation of powers was a brilliant design of the founders. The idea applies just as well in power relationships other than the federal government. Taking away the only (non-violent) weapon labor has will not end well.

I am not advocating lawlessness. I have observed that it is on the rise. I don't like it but we ignore it at our peril. Just giving in to Republican bullying is no answer.

Marty:"On the other hand, recently in Egypt, at the height of the unrest, Christians watched over Muslims as they prayed during the day."
This is very superficial outsiders view on sides in Egypt.
Sides in Egypt were Regime on one side and all others on the other. The sides were not lined up as you see it. Muslims and Christians were on the same side against Regime which was Muslim

I like it when Russell erupts in some righteous anger.

Marty, if OBWI existed in a vacuum, I could see us carrying on like "The Dobie Gillis Show" --- ah, cmon, fellas, things can't be that bad!"

Marty, if your shrugging, bland-faced centro-conservatism (maddening in and of itself ;) ) ruled the waters we swim in outside of OBWI, things might be different.

But, in the real world, thugs like Andrew Brietbart (calling liberals, animals) and Joe the Plumber show up in Wisconsin to support Walker in his union-busting.

Why don't you pop over to Redstate and moderate there, where you could learn all on one thread that the teachers in Wisconsin are commies AND that the first thing commies do when they gain power is outlaw unions, unlike Walker ... or something.

Not speaking for Russell, but he doesn't need a crossing guard to tell when it's O.K. to cross what you think is a dangerous street.

The downside of RINOs being demonized and thrown out of the Republican Party is that now we have to humor them.

Which we don't mind. ;)


Nor would McK and Count be on opposite sides of any conflict in this country. My point exactly.

One must me careful what parallels one draws.

Kicking out RINOs is the perfect example of peer pressure by organized extremes against sensible minority.

No-bid sales/contracts suck pretty much by definition, Marty. I'd