My Photo

« Secrets, Iran and a Healthy Skepticism | Main | Blair Doubles Down: Even Preventive War is for Suckas, Part II »

December 14, 2009

Comments

Devastating.

I'm betting Mr Blair would like to have this part back: "I mean obviously you would have had to use and deploy different arguments about the nature of the threat."

Hit post too soon. The decision makers will cling to "We truly believed Saddam was a threat" no matter what documents pop up, 'cause otherwise, they're guilty of launching an illegal war.

I thought I'd already left this comment, but:

Tony Blair's political career is not over. He's only 56. There is neither law nor tradition in the UK that says once a person has been Prime Minister that's it, end of story: indeed, it's a long-standing tradition that a former Prime Minister will be granted a seat in the House of Lords to continue their political career from a different angle.

Not that I'm defending Blair's behavior in the slightest - I'm just saying: your comments here about

Once out of office, though, the refusal to countenance error is a slightly less excusable vanity. At this juncture, the politician's political career is over and there is little but the judgment of history to contend with, and yet the politician's reticence does a supreme disservice to the historical record and its ability to inform posterity.
certainly apply to George W. Bush, but not to Blair. Yet.

(Mind you, when Tony Blair converted to Catholicism, there was a joke running round about how long his first confession would take - Two days? two years? Until the priest burst into tears and asked him to stop? ...but the joke was usually "Two minutes: Blair doesn't believe he's ever done anything wrong.")

I thought he was aspiring to become pope Antonius the First ;-)
As an ex-Anglican him being married should not pose a problem.
Seriously, I doubt that Blair has a chance to become Prime Minister again (independent of his religious faith). I think the mere fact that he was 'Bush's poodle' should be enough to prevent that (I'd consider a return of Maggie more likely). On the other hand: I am not a Brit but my impression is that the British did not stop going to war over 'interests' because of moral qualms but because it was not feasible anymore (militarily and financially), at least if Britain did not act as junior partner of a superpower. Even the Falklands was possibly just a case of bad timing for the Argentinian junta (going in a few months later might have done the trick).

The weakness of Saddam at the time was temporary, caused by the sanctions and no-fly zones, etc. To leave Saddam in power was to commit to endless maintenance of these.

The sanctions were already falling apart, as the Euros and Russians were selling Saddam anything they could, and the corrupt oil-for-food program was subsidizing Saddam. The situation was unstable.

Since they knew from the experience of the first Gulf War that the whole thing would only take a few months, it seemed the prudent course. What has not been explained is why they ignored the warnings that Iraq would be hard to manage.

>>At least he conceded that different arguments would have been needed...<<

You're being way too kind to him.

To most of us Brits, his comment translates as: "I'd have come up with a different set of lies and half truths".

If you think I'm being ungenerous, read what his own DPP has to say about him:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8411326.stm

In other words, the new standard would be an evisceration of any standard at all.

As indeed it was and remains. This is why the standards laid out by Obama in Oslo -- but moreover any applications thereof during his time in office (specifically, hopefully particular cases where an argument could be constructed whereby force could be justified according to the Oslo Address, but U.S. leadership declines engagement, thereby rendering some life into the standard) are of critical importance.

Seriously, I doubt that Blair has a chance to become Prime Minister again

Hartmut, you're correct here, but there is a very good chance that he will be made a Lord, perhaps even by the incoming Conservative government (though not for a few years I imagine).

Your readers might like to have a look at the Chilcot enquiry into the origins of the British involvement in the war in Iraq.

The evidence presented so far is probably the basic cause of why Blair emerged (in a interview about his religious beliefs) to say what he did. He is due to go before them in the New Year and was smoked out by the Independent newspaper as intending to be interviewed in secret. This has largely been stamped upon.

What they have heard so far has not unequivocally confirmed that Blair promised full support to your President in 2002 but it is exposing the slip shod preparation for the war and the dishonesty of the Government's propaganda (word used advisedly). In particular it is clear that Blair had decided upon the end of war and the means were being manipulated to justify it. The hole he is in is that in shorthand, under the UK's laws, regime change without a UN resolution would have been an illegal war so the weapons of mass destruction were blown up into the causus belli and the Attorney General is reported to have been bullied into giving Britain's entry into the war his clearance.

In all of this, arguing his client's case with all the plausibilty a legal man could muster, Blair acted as the Barrister he is.

I think Tony Blair has just admitted that he doesn't know the first thing about thinking. He starts with his conclusions and only then tries to look for reasons to reach the conclusions.

I suppose that's what "intelligence was fixed around the policy" always meant.

Absolutely disgusting. And apparently it's typical of our politicians on both sides of the pond. Cf. the American health care debate ... the Joe Lieberman edition being only the most recent example. The right is against it, whatever "it" may be, and they'll figure out their reasons later.

The weakness of Saddam at the time was temporary, caused by the sanctions and no-fly zones, etc. To leave Saddam in power was to commit to endless maintenance of these.

That's a compelling argument, Fred. But it doesn't make the war legal.

The weakness of Saddam at the time was temporary, caused by the sanctions and no-fly zones, etc. To leave Saddam in power was to commit to endless maintenance of these

But Saddam was easily deterrable regardless. War was unnecessary, even without sanctions.

Fred: Why launch a war to prevent Saddam from acting in such a way that launching a war to counter him would be necessary at some point in the future?

In doing so, you basically make the worst case scenario a reality without giving better alternatives a chance.

If Saddam was dumb enough to launch an invasion of Kuwait again after getting so utterly demolished the last go around, we could simply reprise Gulf War I. But chances are pretty good that he would do no such thing, in which case, war averted entirely.

But chances are pretty good that he would do no such thing, in which case, war averted entirely.

Eric, I don't know why you would assume that Fred agrees with you that, all things being equal, averting war is a good thing. I think it's pretty evident at this point that most Americans either think war is really cool (as long as it happens over there someplace and our involvement is limited to putting stickers on our cars), or that war is a simply an inevitability like death and taxes -- it's a drag, but what are you going to do? If the Almighty didn't want us to take up the White Man's Burden spread the blessings of democracy he wouldn't have made us so totally awesome.

Those of us who believe that war is a fundamentally Bad Thing need to remind ourselves from time to time that we are essentially in the lunatic fringe of the American polity.

I know of a country that possesses nuclear weapons, used poison gas against the Kurds of Iraq, has invaded neighbors repeatedly, and ruled millions against their will for centuries. They even attacked the US capital and burned it to the ground. Oh, and they actually invented the "concentration camp."

The UK seems peaceful enough at present, but with this track record, how can we trust them? I say that we need regime change now.

...even where they imagine nobel and just causes...

/spellcheck

If you don't accept the criticisms of preventive war, Fred's position makes sense. Since I do accept the criticisms preventive war, I strongly disagree with Fred's position. So what Uncle Kvetch said.

even where they imagine nobel and just causes

Perhaps a serendipitous error considering recent awards.

Alas, the spellcheck is powerless against such clusters of letters as they, too, are words in our language.

But will fix now.

Those of us who believe that war is a fundamentally Bad Thing need to remind ourselves from time to time that we are essentially in the lunatic fringe of the American polity

Sad, but true.

The weakness of Saddam at the time was temporary, caused by the sanctions and no-fly zones, etc. To leave Saddam in power was to commit to endless maintenance of these.

The sanctions were already falling apart, as the Euros and Russians were selling Saddam anything they could, and the corrupt oil-for-food program was subsidizing Saddam. The situation was unstable.

Where have I seen this before...Perhaps here.

"I will not leave the half-achieved Harfleur
Till in her ashes she lie buried.
The gates of mercy shall be all shut up,
And the flesh’d soldier, rough and hard of heart,
In liberty of bloody hand shall range"

Our hands were not tied, the atrocity of those sanctions not inevitable.

Egypt Steve, slight correction. The concentration camp was a Spanish invention (used on Cuba for a short time on a small scale), the Brits were just the first to scale it up and use it for strategic purposes (and not yet with murder as original intent). They made the idea popular.

Egypt Steve, another one: the British never used gas against the Kurds, or indeed anyone else in Iraq. Churchill thought that they should use tear gas, but his suggestion was never acted on.

You forgot to mention that not only does the UK have nuclear weapons, it actually holds the patent rights to the atom bomb.

The comments to this entry are closed.