On Second Thought...

by publius

Ok - you guys win. The Utah boycott is a bad idea. I think the Prop 8 thing just really angered me, and I posted something quickly without thinking it through.

Specifically, a statewide boycott is extremely overbroad. As a commenter noted, it's different from a state-sponsored Confederate flag. The Mormon church is still an entity within the state (albeit a biggie), but it's not the state. Second, and more interestingly, Paulk notes in the comments that a boycott would only hurt the most liberal segments of Utah (i.e., business interests):

The attack on "Utah" is extremely misguided. Largely, this is because the consequences will fall primarily upon those liberal and business interests that are most supportive of gay marriage and who have already been fighting that fight. Economically attacking these groups won't put anyone in a better position. It won't make the people who gave all that money less inclined, but more. There is nothing that an economic crunch on the state will do to change the Church's stance, which is all that matters. What you are likely to see is a bigger backlash from the legislature against gays who live in the state.

That's a strong argument, and persuasive I think. So yes -- it's a bad idea. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

All that said, I still would support a more targeted boycott of businesses run by LDS members that donated a lot of money. That might be more effective, and it's certainly more fair.

Comments

[Curtis]

Is there such a listing of companies available?

[Barrett Wolf]

I stand awed.

So rare is it these days that I see any post, anywhere, followed by a discussion, followed by a second post indicating that the first post was done in haste, as it were.

You impress the hell out of me by genuinely listening to your friends, peers and visitors - And being willing to amend your ideas when they prove less than workable or reasonable.

I couldn't support ObWi more after this.
You fargin' ROCK!

[Katherine Hunter]

i live in SE Utah and believe me not everyone who lives here is a Mormon / you wd be surprised at the number of liberal and progressive folks that enjoy the magnificent wildscape of Utah and have nothing to do with the LDS church.

[publius]

thanks barrett -- though i obviously prefer to get it right the first time. :)

but in all seriousness, i think the commenters here operate on a very high level. it's rare that i don't learn something from a substantive thread (even when i don't participate).

and commenting is a particularly helpful writing tool -- i know that if i write crap, i'll be told it's crap. and that tends (one hopes) to reduce the "crap" i produce. though it slips through from time to time :)

[shirt]

At least a lot of christianists have the "grace" to display their lil' fishie thing. It's useful in avoiding doing business with those who would screw over non-christianists. (Why else display the fishie?).

[Ben Alpers]

They estimate that by 2030, Mormons will have become a minority in Utah.

Perhaps a better approach to punishing the LDS Church would be to have many non-Mormons--preferably committed gay couples--move to the Beehive State now in order to hasten the day!

It's a beautiful place and SLC isn't a bad town (then again I live in Oklahoma...)

[Jay Jerome]

publius: "All that said, I still would support a more targeted boycott of businesses run by LDS members that donated a lot of money."

But I take it you're not committing to a targeted boycott of Black businesses or churches in California, which had a much greater influence on the outcome of the vote than LDS members in Utah... Isn't that politically correct selectivity?

And following a blitz of local Spanish TV and radio ads here in California 53% of Hispanics voted YES. So are you committing to a boycott of Hispanic businesses and churches in California who paid and proselytized for the ads for the YES vote as well, or doesn't the Catholic church earn the same opprobrium as the Mormons?

[Nate W.]

Jay Jerome:

Who do you think was paying for those ads?

Publius:

Glad to hear it. FWIW, last night in Salt Lake City we had a rally where former mayor Rocky Anderson and 3 gay members of the legislature spoke (all from SLC). Crowd estimates were well over 2000 people, and that was with about 36 hours to organize.

[Jesurgislac]

Publius, I agree (needless to say!) that a boycott of "Utah" is way too broad.

This struck me as being a creative, targeted way both to express ire at the leadership of the LDS, and to pro-actively support the invalidation of Proposition 8.

Given that the courts have already determined that it is against the California constitution to deny equal rights to all Californian citizens, I think this case stands a good chance of success: and while of course the anti-gay crew will try to overturn it - again - opposition to same-sex marriage is so strongly age-related that even a few years could dispose of the tiny margin of victory won by the "Yes on 8ers".

[russell]

Go after the LDS and you will simply confirm their belief that they are the embattled righteous few.

If you want to get right up their noses, the thing to do is target Utah for gay tourism.

If you actually want to change minds, you might want to just, you know, talk to some Mormons. Invite them to dinner. Invite them to a gay wedding.

It's the Sebastian strategy.

Skillful means wins the day.

Thanks -

[Scott H Payne]

I tend to agree with russell. As strongly as I feel about equal marriage rights, it strikes me that choosing to "target" opponents only further entrenches them and reifies the notion that they and, by extension, marriage are "under attack" by the gay community and its allies.

Finding creative and compelling ways to demonstrate that gay marriage does not pose a fundamental threat to their way of life and view of the world, while it undoubtedly involves a long haul, seems like the high road to a lasting change in perceptions. Certainly alternate routes, like the one suggested here, are available, but don't they just feed into and prolong the battle that we're trying to resolve in some equitable fashion?

Cheers.

[Jesurgislac]

Scott, the key thing with the LDS Church leadership is that sooner or later, if opposition to LGBT equality threatens the LDS tax-exempt status, the President will have a revelation from God that it's okay to treat LGBT people decently.

Whether you believe this is so because God has the LDS Church under special protection and extends useful revelations to the current Prophet as and when required, or for some other more secular reason, I don't think it really matters.

Individual Mormons can be made friends with: the leadership of the LDS church will only change their views when God tells them to, and He won't tell them to until the LDS church is under direct threat from the IRS.

[Graeme]

As a CA resident, I DO plan to boycott Utah. We were going to do a family ski week there, but we'll be going to CO or WY instead.

The way I see it, the Mormon church hurt our state economy, because those weddings were putting money in our coffers. Any weddings that were entirely between folks from out of state were even better for us.

So... Turnabout is fair play.

[North]

Another great way to get a little revenge on the LDS church would be to flood Utah with money/efforts to change their laws to be more friendly to queers, booze, and other sinful entities.

[libhomo]

You were wrong to back down on the boycott of Utah. What have the rest of the people in that state done to destroy the racist, sexist, heterosexist, and anti-atheist hate group that is the Mormon Church?

Absolutely nothing.

[Delia]

In the 1970s public pressure over the LDS refusal to allow black males to hold the priesthood began to take a toll. The high point was when Stanford refused to play BYU in football. Sometime after that came the "revelation" that ended discrimination. Outside public pressure directed at the church will eventually work, but it will be slow. They've also been meddling in other states' affairs when it comes to gay rights issues.

Publicity and legal challenges are the best weapons. I was raised Mormon: I and most of my family are no longer in that church. But take it from me, a good public image is extremely important to the LDS church. If this sort of meddling becomes counterproductive to that image, they will stop. I am not an attorney and don't know what the details of the tax issues are, but those need to be investigated. These mass demonstrations, especially when they get good press coverage are helpful.

Target large LDS-linked businesses that have given money (Marriott?) Target BYU.

[Dave Bennion]

Having grown up Mormon, mostly in Utah, I wouldn't be opposed to a boycott. Most of Utah business is LDS-owned. Though active Mormons aren't as high a percentage of Utahns as you might think, it's hard to overstate the Church's influence in business and politics in the state. Sundance, of course, has nothing to do with the Church and little to do with institutional Utah.

If you actually want to change minds, you might want to just, you know, talk to some Mormons. Invite them to dinner. Invite them to a gay wedding.

That is probably what will win the day over the long run. But sadly, until the Church leadership does an about-face like the 1978 Kimball revelation, the rank and file will fight gay marriage to the end. Many church members will not feel that they have a choice in the matter as long as the leadership speaks so clearly. Not all active members support the official anti-gay position, but those who don't will not often risk approbation and censure by voicing their opinions. After all, if challenge the leadership too publicly, you can get exxed.

I am beyond angry at the church's actions on Prop 8. The church claims not to take sides in political matters--clearly, that policy is overruled when basic civil rights are on the line. I will be requesting that my name be removed from the church records where it has sat for the last 11 years since I became inactive. I hope my liberal friends and family members still active in the church understand where their tithing money went this election season.

[Gary Farber]

"But I take it you're not committing to a targeted boycott of Black businesses or churches in California, which had a much greater influence on the outcome of the vote than LDS members in Utah..."

I take it you're not committing to a targeted boycott of "white" businesses or churches in California, which had a much greater influence on the outcome of the vote than LDS members in Utah than "black" ones did?

Why is that, Jay Jerome?

[Gary Farber]

"We were going to do a family ski week there, but we'll be going to CO or WY instead."

Consider rewarding Democratic Colorado over still highly Republican Wyoming. :-)

[Suzii]

libhomo, in the name of my mother, my daughter, my brother and the other stalwarts of Salt Lake PFLAG and their allies, I take offense. They have stood, and are standing, against a flood of insults that you clearly cannot imagine.

[Delia]

PS: You can bet that there were a lot of liberal Mormons in that demonstration in SLC. Things are not as monolithic there as they appear from outside. People do have gay friends and relatives and are conflicted. In some cases they are just plain in favor of a tolerant and open society. The LDS church has been playing this traditional family values card because it's a very authoritarian structure. But it's also very afraid of extensive outside criticism because of Mormon history. That's what eventually happened with the issue of blacks and the priesthood. Right now they're trying to throw their lot in with the radical religious right, who actually don't like them for theological reasons. So they're in a dicier spot than it looks like.

So I would like to see a broad coalition of gays and straights coming together criticizing their meddling and their destruction of others' rights. They used fear tactics to win over voters and that needs to be exposed as dishonest, base and cruel.

[cowboyneok]

Nothing at all wrong with reacting in anger like a normal human being, then refocusing your anger into a more feasible way to beat back this blow to the LGBT community. We are all processing this, and determining the best way to fight this in real time. I agree we should target LDS and any other religious organizations who crossed the line in pumping millions into their political action. Think of how many homeless, and hungry people they would have supported with those millions being redirected into their tax exempt Political Action Committee Churches versus the good a church is supposed to accomplish in helping the poor and disadvantaged.

[Adam]

Before I consider the pros or cons of a boycott of Utah's tourism industry, I would like to know why anyone would plan a vacation in Utah in the first place.

[publius]

utah is -- by a large margin -- the most beautiful state i've ever been to. it's not just strikingly beautiful, it completely changes every 100 miles. I mean, start in Zion and then just drive north to Logan or whatever that city is. The landscape changes every couple of hours.

[Gary Farber]

"utah is -- by a large margin -- the most beautiful state i've ever been to."

I've been to something like 37 or so of the States, and I'd be hard put to make a choice like that. But, then, I'm always rotten at picking The Best of everything.

Utah has lots of beautiful stuff. Bryce Canyon, and Zion, particularly. But, then, so does Montana, and Glacier National Park. And Arizona, and not just Grand Canyon and Petrified Forest. And Wyoming, and Grand Teton, which is fantastic, especially from the Snake River -- and Yellowstone. Colorado has the Rockies and Black Canyon. Washington's Mount Rainier can hardly be beat, and not to mention the Cascades and the Olympics. Oh, and Mt. St. Helens was amazing after the volcano blew, and all the trees were down for so many endless miles. Sequoia Canyon in California is awesome, as is much of the Pacific coast, and, of course, Yosemite, and also of course, Redwood National Park (that'll make you believe in Ents).

Just off the top of my head. Hard calls.

You'd never know I'm partial to mountains, would you?

[Gary Farber]

And I've never been to Hawaii or Alaska, both of which have to be contenders.

[publius]

i suspect alaska would win the prize -- never been there. i have however spent some time in Wyoming. Tetons, etc. are obviously beautiful, but there's lots of crap too.

maybe i was a bit excitable on utah, but it was just the diversity of the land that stood out to me. i felt like i was seeing so many different kinds of landscapes. granted, any one of those landscapes probably pales relative to the tetons or glacier. but i was just struck by the state as a whole.

the american west is quite a thing.

[Gary Farber]

"the american west is quite a thing."

I've loved it ever since taking a camping bus trip across the country when I was 14. I'm particularly fond of the Pacific Northwest, which is my favorite corner of the country. (Maine and Vermont are nice, too, but lack sufficient mountainage.)

Although I do think Montana goes on long after it's made its point. 630 miles is a long way to drive across a single state.

To be sure, Texas is worse, at 790 miles, but I've never ridden across Texas.

[Adam]

I'm particularly fond of the Pacific Northwest, which is my favorite corner of the country.

Having grown up there, I'm not sure I agree with you. Would have been nice a hundred years ago, maybe.

To be sure, Texas is worse, at 790 miles, but I've never ridden across Texas.

Strongly disagree -- West Texas is the most pristine part of the country, in my opinion; A West Texas storm over those big mesas is quite a thing. It is something of a drive, though. Quite a bit more than Montana...

[Gary Farber]

"It is something of a drive, though."

That was all I was saying.

[now_what]

Before I consider the pros or cons of a boycott of Utah's tourism industry, I would like to know why anyone would plan a vacation in Utah in the first place.

If you've ever wondered what the night time sky really looks like, southern utah would be a good place to begin to find out.

And if you thought the landscapes in the old roadrunner cartoons were made up you would be in for a surprise if you went there.

But you shouldn't go there. I agree with the original premise, boycott the whole state. Having a state government run as an arm of a church is bad enough when they stick to their own state, when they try to dictate their bizarre religion to other states, it is time for people to stand up.

Enough.

[Gary Farber]

"when they try to dictate their bizarre religion to other states,"

Right, because Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Shinto, Hinduism, and on through the others, make ever so much more sense. And because fundamentalists of all these other sorts are so much less inclined to dictate to those they wish to dictate to.

I propose we think bigger, and boycott the U.S. as a whole; why not be consistent in the application of one's logic?

[now_what]

Right, because Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Shinto, Hinduism, and on through the others, make ever so much more sense.

You try to enact those as state religions, I'll fight those too.

[Gary Farber]

"You try to enact those as state religions, I'll fight those too."

And the evidence that Mormons have tried to enact Mormonism as a state religion in the U.S. more than Christians have, is what, exactly?

[now_what]

United States history to Farber, come in Farber....

[Gary Farber]

"United States history to Farber, come in Farber...."

Ah, the "support for my point is so obvious I need not state it" answer. Always effective.

[Slartibartfast]

Hawaii has 11 of the 13 possible climate zones. If that isn't variety, I don't know what is.

So if you're looking for change, Hawaii is probably your place. Depends on what you're looking for, I suppose. Beauty is sometimes closer to home than you suspect, though. Colorado has some absolutely breathtaking spots. Just go see the Black Canyon sometime. Well, maybe that's closer to frightening than beautiful.

I've driven Texas from Texarkana to Amarillo, and it's...well, not really all that nice. The miles would go a lot quicker if there was much other than scrubland and tumbleweeds to look at. I suspect the long shot across on I-10 is similar. If anything, it's an argument for 100mph speed limits.

[Slartibartfast]

The route I took is only 575 miles or so. Still, it seemed like forever.

[novakant]

Right, because Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Shinto, Hinduism, and on through the others, make ever so much more sense. And because fundamentalists of all these other sorts are so much less inclined to dictate to those they wish to dictate to.

Ohh, so all religions and religious groups are the same, so it's best to let them all be and do absolutely nothing against them, so as not to be unfair to any one group.

[Gary Farber]

"Ohh, so all religions and religious groups are the same,"

I hadn't noticed that suggesting that one religion is not particularly objectively less "bizarre" than another means that, no. But, by all means, pick a religion and explain how there's nothing bizarre about it at all, objectively speaking. I have popcorn.

"...and do absolutely nothing against them...."

Oh, no, engaging in religious wars and persecutions always works out so much for the better.

[Pinko Punko]

Utah has mountains for Gary Farber, as well as red rock and sandstone of enormous varieties of color and terrain. Bryce and Zion don't even begin to cover the diversity present in the state. Whether it is the most beautiful or not, it most certainly has the greatest diversity in terrain, perhaps second to Hawaii, which has 0-13K feet in such a small package and both arid and tropical rainforest.

[novakant]

whatever, Gary

[Pinko Punko]

Novakant, don't be sore when you have you behind handed to you. If I want Mormons to think about equality for gays, maybe attacking their entire doctrine is not the way to go about it, whether or not I agree with it. Whether it affects other people is another thing, and that is certainly my business.

[Adam]

If anything, it's an argument for 100mph speed limits.

There is a stretch of I-10 that is perfectly straight for ~27 miles. I know this because I was keeping track, because there was nothing better to do.

100 mph seems about right to me. I mean, it's not as if there's actually anything to run into.

[Dave Bennion]

I will be requesting that my name be removed from the church records where it has sat for the last 11 years since I became inactive.

Done and done. Ok, I'm done shaking my tiny fist for now.

[novaknat]

We simply disagree Pinko.

For instance, I know a lot of former Irish Catholics who attack the entire doctrine of the Catholic church and wish it would simply go away. And they have very good reasons to feel that way: abortion, child abuse by priests, workhouses for "fallen women", homophobia, indoctrination of young people, undue influence on politics and society in general.

I can imagine that a liberal in Utah might have similar feelings towards the Mormon church and I wouldn't dare telling them that they are wrong feeling that way.

Now, realistically the church isn't going to go away anytime soon, so the best you can hope for is that their grip on society diminishes and/or that they reform themselves so that their doctrines are more in step with secular humanist values.

And there undeniably are churches more in step with modern society and therefore what one might call less "bizarre" than others, say, the Church of England or the protestant churches in Germany and the Scandinavian countries. They are much less rigid in their doctrines and don't throw away their weight in society nearly as much, which is why I can live with them in an uneasy truce.

But I will fight churches who indoctrinate their members, openly discriminate against others and try to dominate society.

[Anarch]

100 mph seems about right to me. I mean, it's not as if there's actually anything to run into.

I'm told that one of the most accident-ridden lengths of roadway is a several hundred mile stretch of perfectly straight road through the Gobi Desert. My high school use to run trips to the area, and there were vehicles crashed by the score on the "shoulder"; apparently, it's so straight and so flat that drivers would almost become hypnotized...

[Jim]

The LDS are the easy meat. Almost everyone lready despises them; being outed as a Molrmon was enough to lose the nomination for Romney. So going after them won't change anyhting of work any kind of change.

Go after the Catholic Church in California, and the Mexicans.

Some steps California should implement immediately:

1. Revoke the Church's tax exempt status.
2. Revoke priests' status as agents of the state empowered to perform legally valid weddings. Let them gag on that for awhile, like until they change their behavior.
3. Pass a nuisance tax on the public use of the Spanish language, whether in signage visible from the street, any published item, or the public use of Spanish surnames. Make the last ...hmmmm....$5,000 per person per annum.

Some things the demonstrators should focus on:

1. Drop the Mormons and picket Catholic churches.
2. Burn Mexican flags and desecrate images of the Virgin of Guadalupe - the more inventive and disgusting the better.
3. Boycott businesses owned by or employing Catholics. Start with big ticket item businesses such as car agencies. Get buyers to make the deal contingent on the company not employing any Catholcs, with a form attesting to this fact to be signed by the salesman - sale void if the attestation is later found to have been false.

Half my ancestors were Catholics and they suffered under laws like this. Tough shit. The Church has obviously not learned its lesson.

[Gary Farber]

"Go after the Catholic Church in California, and the Mexicans."

Mexicans don't vote in national elections in the U.S.

"2. Burn Mexican flags and desecrate images of the Virgin of Guadalupe - the more inventive and disgusting the better.
3. Boycott businesses owned by or employing Catholics."

It's sad to see that some people's response to one type of discrimination is to recommend other types of discrimination.

Just sad.

[a Punk from SLC]

Publis,

I posted my opinion in your original boycott Utah comment thread before I saw this one. I just wanted to thank you for actually reading the comments and reconsidering your position. For that, you rock!