Sigh...

by hilzoy

Two things that are worth commenting on, but not worth their own posts. First, yet another lie from the McCain campaign:

"The campaign Friday launched a 30-second Spanish-language television ad charging that Democrat Barack Obama and his Senate colleagues torpedoed meaningful changes in immigration laws.

"The press reports that their efforts were 'poison pills' that made immigration reform fail," the ad charges. "The result: No guest worker program. No path to citizenship. No secure borders. No reform. Is that being on our side? Obama and his congressional allies ready to block immigration reform, but not ready to lead."

What that's wrong: Media accounts cited two votes as effectively killing immigration reform last year — and Obama was on the same side as McCain in both."

McClatchy helpfully provides links to both votes: 1, 2. Just for the heck of it, I went looking for analyses of the bill's failure at the time. They don't mention any amendments by Obama. They do, however, say things like this:

"It was a victory for Republican conservatives who strongly criticized the bill's provisions that would have established pathways to lawful status for many of the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants. They were aided by talk radio and TV hosts who repeatedly attacked the bill and urged listeners to flood Congress with calls, faxes and e-mails."

And this:

"There's plenty of blame to go around. Blame George W. Bush, a president whose self-inflicted wounds have left him too politically incapacitated to deliver his own party. Blame Republicans like Jim DeMint of South Carolina, John Cornyn of Texas and Jeff Sessions of Alabama, senators more focused on generating sound bites and 30-second attack ads than on solving the nation's immigration problems. And blame Democratic senators such as James Webb of Virginia, who ducked the hard vote while hiding behind a phony compromise proposal that had no chance. Although it was Republican senators who bear primary responsibility for killing off immigration reform, all of them conspired to reinforce and justify the public's disdain for politics as usual."

But, oddly enough, Senator Obama's name does not come up.

***

(2) The Obama campaign pointed out in a (mediocre) ad that McCain doesn't know how to use a computer and can't send an email. Jonah Goldberg has an explanation:

"Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "extraordinary." The reason he doesn't send email is that he can't use a keyboard because of the relentless beatings he received from the Viet Cong in service to our country."

This won't work. For one thing, a variety of press reports claim that McCain uses a Blackberry, so he can't be wholly incapable of using a keyboard. (John Cole has pictures.) For another, Jonah Goldberg might not realize this, but there are a lot of products out there that are designed to allow people with disabilities to use computers. For people with motor disabilities, or just a desire to avoid carpal tunnel syndrome, speech recognition software can be a godsend. It's not hard, it doesn't involve using your hands, and we know that McCain can speak perfectly well.

If McCain were an ordinary private individual, I might wonder whether finding out about this and then setting it up would be too great an obstacle to getting on line. But McCain has a personal staff whose job it is to figure things like this out. So: no, Jonah, I don't think we can put this down to his experience as a POW.

UPDATE: Wait a minute: the Viet Cong? Does Jonah Goldberg think that John McCain was imprisoned by the Viet Cong?

h/t k at ObWi and Rand Careaga at the Monthly.

Comments

[K]

Also, it wasn't the Viet Cong, but the government of North Vietnam, that held McCain.

[OCSteve]

This seems like grasping a little.

Everyone – take a weekend off from this crap. I am. I’m going to take the love of my life to another town where we shall walk a lot and undoubtedly eat too much. My mission shall be to drink too much.

I’ll judge my success by how crappy I feel Sunday morning…

[Roger Moore]

McCain was a POW, you know. Not that he ever talks about it.

[hilzoy]

K: yeah, just spotted that. Will update. Thanks.

[pamela]

You are being too kind.
There are numerous pieces out there where McCain says simply that he just does not want to use email or computers.
It would have been easy for him to say "I physically can't". It would have been quite moving too.

And to be honest, even though it is a cruel thing to say, as a commenter on BJ said, if he physically can't use a computer, then it is time to wonder if he is in a physical state to be President. Not a debate I wanna have but a legitimate questions nevertheless.

[michelle]

If that was the case it was a physical disability that prevented him from using computers, you would think the DC McCain press corps which has been foowing him for a decade at the very least and has been quite close to him as we know, would have picked up on that right off the bat when Obama launched that attack.

[michelle]

Oh and this LA Times story has Tucker Bounds saying McCain uses a laptop. DATED FROM TODAY. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2008/09/obama-slams-mcc.html

Goldberg and Steyn snarks Obama can't use Google. Well, it seems those cyber-savvy bloggers can't either.

FAIL.

[Roger Moore]

And to be honest, even though it is a cruel thing to say, as a commenter on BJ said, if he physically can't use a computer, then it is time to wonder if he is in a physical state to be President.

That depends a lot on exactly what physical state he has that prevents him from using a computer. If he had once been able to use a computer but now he couldn't because of age related decline, that would be a giant red flag. But, AFAIK, his problem is specific wounds to his arms that substantially limit his dexterity. He's had essentially the same problem since coming back from Viet Nam, and it doesn't seem to have limited his ability to perform as a Senator.

That's not to say that his health isn't in question. He's 72 years old, a cancer survivor, and seems to be showing some other signs of age related decline. I just don't think that his lack of computer skill is a good indicator of his general health.

[hilzoy]

pamela: I really disagree that if he couldn't use a computer, we should ask whether he should be President. If he were physically incapable of using one, it would probably be from e.g. broken fingers or hands. That would have nothing at all to do with his general physical capacity to be President, I think.

[hilzoy]

Or, what Roger Moore said. ;)

[pamela]

As I said, it is frankly not an argument I would try to make and construct.

And the bottom line he is perfectly capable of using a computer. He just isn't interested enough to do it which is if not a disqualifier certainly a problem for me - regardless of his physical condition.

Thanks for engaging what I said though.

(PS: Drudge picked up the original Goldberg entry. I am rolling my eyes)

[Warren Terra]

Computers have this nasty habit of generating records that can later be revealed, although the current administration has done their very best to limit this tendency. Not using a computer is therefore a plus for a Republican President.

And, yes, the Obama ad was a bit mystifying to me: who cares, really, whether McCain uses a computer. His being out of touch becomes relevant more when it's about his plan to tax health insurance and to skew tax cuts to the wealthy, not his websurfing capabilities. Given my druthers, I'd much rather just see 26 seconds given over to explaining that chart from the Tax Policy Center (http://blog.prospect.org/blog/ezraklein/updatedtaxtable.html>here's a copy Ezra Klein posted) to the undecided voter, or if they must avoid substance they could hit back on McCain's lies like in that Robert Greenwald video that just came out). One thought: maybe the only point of the silly computer ad is to make McCain mad, on the theory that his last several decisions have been notably awful and they'd like to see more?

[Tim O'Keefe]

OC Steve: This seems like grasping a little.

OK, I'll bite: why is that? On the outrage-o-meter, it might be far from the top, but item #1, at least, seems (at a minimum) to be a significant distortion of Obama's record in order to woo Latino votes through deception. Where is this grasping you speak of?

[Incertus]

UPDATE: Wait a minute: the Viet Cong? Does Jonah Goldberg think that John McCain was imprisoned by the Viet Cong?

You seem surprised that Jonah Goldberg would get a historical fact wrong. I sort of work under the assumption that anything he says regarding history is almost certainly incorrect, if not certifiably insane.

[I am AlGore's hairy backfat]

So, both Republican candidates have proven their ability to fly (have you ever filed a "flight plan", or passed the pilot's test?)- and Obama wants to brag that he uses e-mail? Go for it!

Besides, Biden isn't even smart enough to "pilot" an Amtrak train.

For another, Jonah Goldberg might not realize this, but there are a lot of products out there that are designed to allow people with disabilities to use computers.

There are innumerable Gov't programs for people looking for a job- it must take a person of unimaginable stupidity to need Food Stamps, Unemployment Insurance, "minimum wage" increases, EITC, and/or COBRA?-- not to mention "public schools" (use that damn public library that we're already paying for!).

[Fraud Guy]

et Al

So, both Republican candidates have proven their ability to fly ...

You do recall that McCain lost 5 planes, and so could have been designated an ace by the Vietnamese?

[Fraud Guy]

et Al, again:

There are innumerable Gov't programs for people looking for a job- it must take a person of unimaginable stupidity to need Food Stamps, Unemployment Insurance, "minimum wage" increases, EITC, and/or COBRA?-- not to mention "public schools" (use that damn public library that we're already paying for!).

A person would have to be committing fraud in order to really be collecting unemployment benefits at the same time they were working for minimum wage. Actually, strike that. The scenario you proposed actually could happen, and probably does way too often.

Imagine a person who was laid off of a formerly decently paying job, say a pressman making @ $15 per hour.

They file for unemployment (1), and also have to file for COBRA benefits (2) in order to keep insurance on their family.

Now, after a short period of time, that person still can't find a job (unspoken recession, you know), and the family income is getting tight. Now the family applies for Food Stamps (3) in order to feed themselves (as many food pantries are running out of supplies--some in Illinois have had to cut back to one handout per week per family instead of 3/week due to increases in needy families and drops in donations with tighter budgetary belts).

Say this happens just after mid year, and so tax time rolls around before our displaced worker finds a new job. He calculates his family income and, voila, they are eligible for the EITC that year (4). Finally, to bring in extra cash, he takes a part time job (because that is all the company is hiring on) stocking shelves, being paid minimum wage. If his income from that job is less than his unemployment benefit, he can still receive the benefit, but it is reduced by the amount he earned (5).

With a little research and creativity, you could probably find 2-5 more public assistance programs this family would be eligible for, all because he was unbelievably stupid and trusted some politicians who said that the economy was fine; well, maybe a little turbulence. Don't even start me on their credit card bills they ran up when they were told that shopping would help us beat the terrorists, or the payday loans they took out to help tide them over when they had some medical bills!

And of course, his kids are going to public schools, even though he has to shell out hundreds of dollars in fees and supplies per child in addition to the property taxes they pay to the school district.

[Anthony Damiani]

I don't think someone who doesn't know how to use a telephone is qualified to be president.

In 2008, I don't think email and the net are much different in terms of importance.

I know, I know, it's elitist, there are millions of elderly Americans who still don't know how. But they don't get to formulate a net neutrality policy.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the person who has to make those decisions to have spent some basic time on the internet.

[Hartmut]

Concerning physical inability to use a computer:
Stephen Hawking, Stephen Hawking, Stephen Hawking!
Don't tell me that the Son of Cain has less command of his own body than this Brit egghead!

[Wildmonk]

Um...if you do a bit of research, the claim that McCain "doesn't use email" comes down to "doesn't type his own email"...Cindy typically types for him because she is so much faster.

Not only does he use email and a blackberry, he reads blogs and was widely cited as a pioneer for his use of the Internet in the 2000 election (including profiles by the NY Times). Indeed, McCain credits bloggers with helping to keep his campaign above water when it seemed ready to sink in 2007.

So...the actual claim is bogus. Obama's ad is flat-out wrong where it matters most: whether McCain is familiar with technology. It is "true" only in the most trivial sense: that he doesn't *type* his own emails because the torture that he endured now makes it slow and painful for him to type and that he often prefers other ways to communicate.

Worse than that, I'm sure the Obama and his cadre of fighting keyboarders face danger every day (you know - Outlook can be a real b*tch!) but do you *really* want to compare Obama's technical savvy with that of a man who flew jets from an Aircraft carrier? Seriously...

[Kevin]

You leftists are a riot, and you dweebs need to get your talking point straight.

One minor point, McCain was a POW and he was injured and he was tortured. These are undeniable facts, which the left will ignore at their own peril.

But my main point is this, on one hand Obama's ad claims that McCain can't use a computer, but on the other hand most all the Obama sycophants on this blog claim that he can.

If you don't see the quicksand you folks are walking into, I'm not going to explain it to you.

[William Teach]

So McCain can use a Blackberry, but not a keyboard? Gee, the way people type on a BBerry is completely different, since you use your thumbs primarily with the BBerry.

Now who is showing their inability to understand modern tech?

[Ben]

Kind fo ridiculous to say he's behind the times on technology and then point out his use of a blackberry as proof. Last time I checked, a blackberry is a pretty nifty and complicated piece of technology. I'd say all you really did is help the GOP shoot down this ridiculous ad. An ad that gives no reason to vote for Obama, but does a great job of making older folk want to vote for McCain.

The Obama campaign is having a lot of trouble. Obama himself pointed out his running of the campaign as his executive experience. Well he's taken a huge lead and turned it into a virtual tie. Doesn't sound like he's doing a very good job in his only experience being in charge. That's bound to happen when you are all flash and no substance.

[Phil]

One minor point, McCain was a POW and he was injured and he was tortured. These are undeniable facts, which the left will ignore at their own peril.

Why "at their own peril?" Is being a POW and being tortured now a prerequisite for the Presidency?

And who -- by name, please -- is ignoring these facts? And, in your opinion, to what end?

[Turbulence]

do you *really* want to compare Obama's technical savvy with that of a man who flew jets from an Aircraft carrier? Seriously...

Given McCain's insistence on crashing those jets, then yes, I do want to compare them.

[Doug H. (Fausto no more)]

The Obama campaign is having a lot of trouble. Obama himself pointed out his running of the campaign as his executive experience. Well he's taken a huge lead and turned it into a virtual tie.

Why should I trust the advice of someone who doesn't understand what a convention bounce is?

[jesurgislac]

Kevin: One minor point, McCain was a POW and he was injured and he was tortured. These are undeniable facts

I know McCain was a POW and he was injured - for some reason, possibly because McCain reminds us of this non stop.

But according to the Bush administration, and therefore to John McCain himself, he wasn't tortured. No indeed. What happened to him when he was a POW is what the Bush admininstration refers to as "harsh interrogation". Not torture. Did you hear McCain say he was tortured since the Bush administration declared that beating a prisoner, waterboarding him, making him assume stress positions, depriving him of medical treatment - is not torture? Because the US does these things to prisoners, and Bush says the US does "harsh interrogation". Not torture.

[Jimmie]

Wow, that was a weak defense of a really, really uninformed and foolish advertisement.

[KCinDC]

And why should we trust the advice of someone who complains about "all flash and no substance" but is supporting Palin and her sidekick?

[Tom Maguire]

On immigration reform - too funny. The links provided are to the NY Times, LA Times, and Wash Post, none of whom blame Democrats for a failed attempt at bipartisan compromise - imagine my surprise.

Now obviously both sides will want to spin this to blame the other but an honest research effort wold at least have presented both sides spin. Let's try this from Earl Ofari Hutchinson at the Huffington Post; he was assessing the charge made by McCain last July that Obama torpedoed this reform:

This much is clear in looking back at the Senate immigration debate in the spring 2007, Obama did vote for five amendments dubbed "poison pill" amendments. They badly threw out of whack the carefully crafted, but always fragile, compromise package that Democrats and Republicans cobbled together to get a bill passed. The Amendments lowered the visa quota for guest workers, put a severe time limit on the temporary guest worker program, and the temporary worker visa programs, revised the system for evaluating immigrant citizenship claims, and changed the time limit on the renewal of visas for some immigrants.

The amendments were backed by liberal and labor groups. The intent was to make the bill more expansive, balanced, and fair. But it was also the classic case of noble intent clashing with political practicality and a very tenuous Senate Democrat and Republican consensus on the type of immigration reform bill that realistically could pass, and that Bush would sign. The amendments predictably were rejected. Both Senator Ted Kennedy and McCain turned thumbs down on them (McCain did not vote on one of the amendments). The time delay, energy expended and wasted debating the amendments (and others), upset the delicate balance and helped dig the hole deeper for the bill.

So in that view Obama contributed to the collapse by digging in with the partisans and raising the tension.

Here is Bob Novak - we all know what side he is on, but facts are facts:

Democrat Byron Dorgan, who seldom has tasted legislative success during 15 years in the Senate, scored a dubious victory last week. He was able to insert a poison pill into the immigration reform bill that aimed at emasculating the essential guest-worker program. The 49 to 48 vote that passed Dorgan's amendment included surprising support from two prominent first-term senators: Jim DeMint, a conservative Republican from South Carolina, and Barack Obama, a Democratic presidential candidate from Illinois.

Dorgan pushed his killer amendment by voicing the Great Plains populism of his home state of North Dakota, but the measure was the product of organized labor. DeMint, normally counted on to oppose anything with the union label, admittedly voted for the Dorgan amendment for the sole purpose of killing the immigration bill. Obama's vote was even more surprising, considering his participation in the closed-door bipartisan drafting of the immigration compromise that had secured a major change.

SO Obama voted for the Dorgan Amendment at the same time that a reform opponent did - the reform opponent wanted to kill reform. What did Barack have in mind? Did he not grasp the politics of his vote, was he afraid to cross labor, did he figure people would blame Republicans if the bill failed, or what?

As I said, both sides will spin this. A researcher would at least present both sides.

[hilzoy]

Somehow, despite the bias Tom Maguire alleges, the WaPo did manage to blame a number of Democrats, like Jim Webb. They just didn't blame Obama.

There are serious differences of opinion about guest worker programs. You can oppose them without wanting to kill the bill.

[Ben]

"And why should we trust the advice of someone who complains about "all flash and no substance" but is supporting Palin and her sidekick?"

Exactly where did I say I support Palin and McCain? All I did was say Obama's campaign was faltering.

And another response to my comment mentioned that I don't know what a convention bounce is. Yes, I do. And I also know that Obama got virtually no convention bounce, whereas McCain has had a huge one. So maybe you should get beyond the convention bounce meme and realize that something a lot bigger than a bounce happened. Or you can continue to live in your fantasy land where Obama has a huge lead and no chance of losing.

[Kevin Hayden]

I've never had a typing course, I'm not great with finger dexterity. At 45, I got my first computer and didn't have the advantage of offline tutors. I regularly typed out long passages in my first 3 months before an online contact enlightened me to the wonders of copy/paste.

Most of the time, I type with two fingers and a thumb on my right hand, and my left thumb. With 9 months of experience, I was coding web pages and launched an ezine. At my best, I manage 35 wpm and have to look at my keyboard. And yet I've blogged almost daily for nearly 6 years.

McCain doesn't use a computer because he doesn't want to. Even he has never claimed his disabilities have prevented him from doing so. His defenders simply like to make up excuses to account for McCain's lack of initiative, his stubborness and his ultimate disinterest in doing what more than 200 million Americans do.

[liberrocky]

So your proof that he uses a blackberry as an e-mail device is a picture of him using it as a phone. Wow.

The dude's elbows appear to work 100% but the ROM (Range of Motion) of his shoulders is severely limited.

If you can show me a video of him holding a blackberry in the standard manner (thumbs on the keyboard, screen about 12 inches from the eyes) and typing for an extend period of time then you have a case.

Oh but that would show that Obama's commercial is bullshit...hmmm dilemma.

[Gromit]

From a July New York Times interview:

Q: What websites if any do you look at regularly?

Mr. McCain: Brooke and Mark show me Drudge, obviously, everybody watches, for better or for worse, Drudge. Sometimes I look at Politico. Sometimes RealPolitics, sometimes.

(Mrs. McCain and Ms. Buchanan both interject: “Meagan’s blog!”)

Mr. McCain: Excuse me, Meagan’s blog. And we also look at the blogs from Michael and from you that may not be in the newspaper, that are just part of your blog.

Q: But do you go on line for yourself?

Mr. McCain: They go on for me. I am learning to get online myself, and I will have that down fairly soon, getting on myself. I don’t expect to be a great communicator, I don’t expect to set up my own blog, but I am becoming computer literate to the point where I can get the information that I need – including going to my daughter’s blog first, before anything else.

Q: Do you use a blackberry or email?

Mr. McCain: No

Mark Salter: He uses a BlackBerry, just ours.

Mr. McCain: I use the Blackberry, but I don’t e-mail, I’ve never felt the particular need to e-mail. I read e-mails all the time, but the communications that I have with my friends and staff are oral and done with my cell phone. I have the luxury of being in contact with them literally all the time. We now have a phone on the plane that is usable on the plane, so I just never really felt a need to do it. But I do – could I just say, really – I understand the impact of blogs on American politics today and political campaigns. I understand that. And I understand that something appears on one blog, can ricochet all around and get into the evening news, the front page of The New York Times. So, I do pay attention to the blogs. And I am not in any way unappreciative of the impact that they have on entire campaigns and world opinion.

As of two months ago, according to the man himself, he was more or less totally computer illiterate, and needed folks to show him things on the web or on their blackberries. This is not just a matter of needing someone to type for him, but of disengagement from the world of information technology. This component of the Obama ad might be silly (I haven't seen the ad yet, so I can't judge), but unless McCain himself is lying, the claim in the ad is completely accurate.

[Lee]

McCain is willing to blatantly layer lie upon lie and abide corruption as long as he wins.

What a boon to failed and craven politicians! A McCain presidency would make GWB look good in retrospect. Warren G. Harding must be in Hell rooting McCain on.

[cleek]

And I also know that Obama got virtually no convention bounce,

false. Gallup gave him an 8-point bounce. here a picture

[tgibson]

From Forbes circa 2000:

In certain ways, McCain was a natural Web candidate. Chairman of the Senate Telecommunications Subcommittee and regarded as the U.S. Senate’s savviest technologist, McCain is an inveterate devotee of email. His nightly ritual is to read his email together with his wife, Cindy. The injuries he incurred as a Vietnam POW make it painful for McCain to type. Instead, he dictates responses that his wife types on a laptop. “She’s a whiz on the keyboard, and I’m so laborious,” McCain admits.

How does it feel to support a candidate low enough to falsely mock someone crippled in the service of their country?

[KCinDC]

Tgibson, see Gromit's comment above. Was McCain lying to Forbes or lying to the New York Times? If he can't keep his story straight it's understandable that people might get it wrong.

[Gromit]

This is pure speculation, but maybe both of McCain's stories are true, in that McCain's web and e-mail privileges were revoked by his handlers. E-mail and blog comments can be very hazardous things in the hands of an impulsive and rage-prone person.

[Mike]

"One minor point, McCain was a POW and he was injured and he was tortured. These are undeniable facts, which the left will ignore at their own peril."

They're not ignoring them. They're pointing and laughing.

[hilzoy]

Who is pointing and laughing at McCain's injuries and imprisonment? Not me, and not anyone I have read.

I have read people who make fun of, for instance, his handlers who suggest that anything he does is explained by the fact that he was a POW. But that's not mocking his experience; it's mocking the degradation of that experience by others. (Likewise, if I tried to get out of a speeding ticket by saying that I have a PhD and someone mocked that, they would not be making fun of my Phd, just of the idea of using it to get out of a speeding ticket.)

Here, I think Jonah Goldberg is eminently mockable. Again, though, he is not McCain, and mocking him is not mocking McCain's experience as a POW.

[disgruntled lib]

If only all the left had but one neck!

[Kevin]

It would seem it's not only the Obama campaign that just can't be arsed to be accurate.

"Given McCain's insistence on crashing those jets, then yes, I do want to compare them."

Posted by: Turbulence

McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them, both due to engine failure. A third was destroyed on the deck of the carrier USS Forrestal when hit by a missile fired accidentally from another plane, triggering a disastrous fire that killed 134 sailors and nearly killed McCain. A fourth plane was lost when he was shot down over North Vietnam on a bombing mission over Hanoi. There's no evidence that any of the four destroyed planes were lost to pilot error.

A fifth alleged "crash" turns out to be a misinterpretation of a biographer's description of a flight accident that did not result in the loss of the aircraft.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_mccain_crash_five_planes.html

www.americanarmed.blogspot.com

[A.W.]

Um, morons, it is not a defense to the charge that Obama is making fun of a disabled man, who gained that disability in service to his country, because one guy mentioned the wrong exact faction that held him.

Do you really think it makes a damn difference whether it was the VC, or the NVA? The point is McCain is a hero, and these scars are caused by his service to his country.

Wow, you guys must be desperate.

[gwangung]

Wow, you guys must be desperate.

Not much on reading comprehension, are you?

[Phil]

Hey, where the fnck were all these trolls commenting in this thread when John Kerry -- who got shot in Vietnam -- was being mocked by Republican jacktards wearing Purple Heart bandages at the 2004 RNC? Why, it's almost as if they don't have any ACTUAL principles and merely conjure them up when it's convenient to do so.

AM I right? Kevin? A.W.? Mike? tgibson? Come on, guys, dazzle me here. Show me you're principled. Amaze me.

[Kevin]

John Kerry was not "shot" in Vietnam, he suffered minor shrapnel wounds to his arm and buttocks and got his arm bruised when the force of a mine explosion threw him against the bulkhead and door on his PBR. And the shrapnel in his ass was from a grenade he himself threw in to a cache of rice to keep it from being used to feed VC. Not exactly what I would call a true combat wound. There were many men who turned down Purple Hearts for injuries much worse than Kerry's because they felt it didn't rise to the required level to rate such an award when their comrades were being killed and maimed. But Kerry used those medals and took the earliest opportunity to high tail it out of Vietnam.

I will say that he did deserve the Bronze Star and more likely the Silver Star for pulling that Ranger out of the water.

That being said NOTHING John Kerry did in his less than 4 whole months in-country can hold a candle to what John McCain did there. McCain was wounded severely enough in the USS Forrestal disaster to be offered a trip home, but he turned that down and volunteered to stay and fly off the USS Oriskany- from which his ill fated mission was launched.

What Kerry did after he returned should be enough to prove he was and is, unfit to hold the office of the president.

And in case you didn't get the memo, John Kerry didn't run this year.

www.americanarmed.blogspot.com

[jesurgislac]

Phil: AM I right? Kevin? A.W.? Mike? tgibson? Come on, guys, dazzle me here. Show me you're principled. Amaze me.

...and Kevin shows up promptly to prove he's as unprincipled as the rest of the Purple Heart Bandaid Republicans.

[Hartmut]

Excuse my Godwin but these trolls would fall on their knees in praise of another highly decorated war hero who ended his war experience (for which he volunteered) as a (temporarily) blind victim of poison gas* and later became head of state and executive branch, if he had been an American. I am sure of that given that US rightwingers love to plunder his speeches (and those of his clubfooted spokesman) for their own use (without giving the source of course).
[/Hail Hynkel]

*a core part of his election campaign(s) together with the claim that the left lost the war the right was in the process of winning.

[Phil]

Yep, Jes. I expected nothing less, and I got nothing more. It would be funny if it weren't nauseating.

[Kevin]

Everything I said is factual and documented. Unlike Mr. "John McCain crashed 5 aircraft".

Last I checked JK could still raise his arms above shoulder height and had no discernible limp.

He does, however, have the quite apparent mental disease commonly referred to as "Elitist Liberalism"

[AndyK]

Was this post linked to at some troll holding facility? I'm not sure I've seen such a sudden onslaught here before, and I wish it hadn't more or less derailed the original point.

I hope I'm pushing back at least a little toward the initial subject by asking: If Karl Rove says a Republican (as well as the Democrat, of course) has crossed the line, that's really something. Video clip at
huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/14/karl-rove-mccains-ads-hav_n_126280.html

[AndyK]

Whoops. Last minute edit rendered that less than grammatical. Change "asking" in line 4 to "suggesting."

[jesurgislac]

Was this post linked to at some troll holding facility?

Yes - Hilzoy crossposts at The Washington Monthly.

[Mike]

From Newsweek's rightwingNazithugnican website:

To conclude that McCain can't click the SEND button simply because he doesn't--and then to mock him for his imbecility--is a low blow.

Also mentioned as "mockery" at another bastion of right-wing extremist thought, the LA Times.

So I guess I stand corrected; you guys aren't pointing and laughing, merely "mocking." Whatever. Y'all just keep right on doing what you're doing, y'hear? Us bitter, clingy rubes out here in Podunkville just love us a good, sniffy lecture, and don't let anybody tell you different.

I'll be in my briar patch.

[Gary Farber]

Was this post linked to at some troll holding facility?

Yes - Hilzoy crossposts at The Washington Monthly.

Hilzoy posts at TWM, but without links to, or mentions of, ObWi, that I've noticed.

[Anarch]

Tom Maguire: Now obviously both sides will want to spin this to blame the other but an honest research effort wold at least have presented both sides spin.

If you're genuinely concerned about honesty: why?

Kevin: Not exactly what I would call a true combat wound.

Our military should be thanking god that you're not in charge of those decisions, then.

Mike: So I guess I stand corrected; you guys aren't pointing and laughing, merely "mocking." Whatever.

If you don't think it's appropriate to mock a would-be President of the United States for not knowing how to use email, then your notion of what it means to be qualified to be President is so abhorrently anemic as to be mockable as well.

[cleek]

He does, however, have the quite apparent mental disease commonly referred to as "Elitist Liberalism"

is that anything like the ailment wherein people from states without coastlines, and the media figures who want to placate them, pretend that they are the only true Americans ?

please, tell me again, Only True Heartland Americans, how thankful I should be that you allow me to live in your country.

[Slartibartfast]

Speaking of which, cleek: the rent's overdue. I thought we had a talk about this last month.

[cleek]

cleek: the rent's overdue.

oh no. yet yet, it isn't. the two giant checks i mailed out last week have until midnight tonight to get there.