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July 25, 2008

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A different take.

A U.S. military official tells NBC News they were making preparations for Sen. Barack Obama to visit wounded troops at the Landstuhl Medical Center at Ramstein, Germany on Friday, but "for some reason the visit was called off."

One military official who was working on the Obama visit said because political candidates are prohibited from using military installations as campaign backdrops, Obama's representatives were told, "he could only bring two or three of his Senate staff member, no campaign officials or workers." In addition,
"Obama could not bring any media. Only military photographers would be permitted to record Obama's visit."

The official said "We didn't know why" the request to visit the wounded troops was withdrawn. "He (Obama) was more than welcome. We were all ready for him."

I’m sure you can guess that on the right that translates to “He canceled because he couldn’t get a photo op out of it.”

Yeah, Gration's excuse is thin. Basically, it boils down to: "We believed that based on the information we received that any presence, even his own and only his own, would get into a back and forth on whether his own presence was a campaign event." Everything else he discusses is consistent with the Pentagon's explanation of the governing regulations .... yet, the governing regulations do not explain or support Gration's belief. Gration does not even say that they believed that it would be treated as a campaign stop if Obama and Obama alone attended -- only that the campaign feared that it "would get into a back and forth on whether his own presence was a campaign event".

That's not a very compelling response.

A rare, but potentially significant, misstep by Obama. Good thing that it's coming on a Friday (possibly, this issue has been brewing for some time and Obama only canceled today because it was a Friday).

Like I said in the other thread, soemone needs to tell the military to fnck off every now and then.

By law only Republican incumbents are permitted to use the troops as campaign props.

Hey, who ever said Red State had no technical skillz (re: their recent donation drive to revamp the portal and bemoaning the apparent dearth of web devs of conservative political leaning to do the revamp for cheap)?

Following the "graphic design contest" link by directly clicking it returns a bogus "Error 500" page. I was suspicious because "500" is normally not just "Service unavailable" but "Server error" as in: something is horribly broken, either with the server or the specific page.

However, going directly to the page (by manually typing or pasting the URL, or just navigating around the RS site), the page comes up just fine.

I should say that this is probably not the best way to do that.

This Kos diary says that Andrea Mitchell was on Morning Joe and that the Pentagon was to blame, with some speculation that the McCain campaign was involved in scuttling it.

Redstate is having some very serious server issues this morning. The 500 server error seems to be intermittent, and based on the frequency I'd say that a portion of the web server farm dedicated to their site is having issues while still in rotation.

Note update: apparently, the Pentagon told him he could visit with Senate staff but not campaign staff. They told him this on Wed., when he was (obviously) already abroad, without any Senate staff.

Look: think about it this way. Whatever you think about Obama's personal views about the troops, it makes precisely no political sense for him to cancel this visit for his own reasons. Has be been given to this sort of screw-up? I don't think so. On the other hand, if the Pentagon put him in a position where he would either (a) cancel the trip or (b) be flouting their directives, of course he would cancel.

More from TPM.

Remember, of course, that McCain was allowed to speak at Annapolis, an event that was paid for by his campaign.

Not saying there is a double-standard. That would require a healthy dose of cynicism and almost paranoia. Since I don't suffer from either, I am sure it was just an oversight by someone.

Fortunately, John McCain would never illegally use the military in his campaign.

Everyone remembers the massive fuss the media made over that incident, right?

Right?

Hilzoy, it doesn't seem like the choice presented was either cancel or flout. It looks like he could have chosen to go ahead with the visit, just without any staff. Do you know why he wouldn't want to do that?

By law only Republican incumbents are permitted to use the troops as campaign props.

The organs of the State, even its defense forces, exist to serve the needs of the Party, because of the Party's unique role as vanguard of the Revolution.

All correctly oriented cadres know that.

If this was a "longstanding Department of Defense regulation[]," isn't it the responsibility of Obama's staff to know of it?

If it's not, of course, that's an issue. But the "we only heard about this on Wednesday" excuse doesn't sound like it's the fault of the military. This seems to be a plain and simple SNAFU by Obama, TPM's editorializing notwithstanding.

von: If this was a "longstanding Department of Defense regulation[]," isn't it the responsibility of Obama's staff to know of it?

Assuming that the "longstanding" nature of the regulation doesn't mean "invented by the Department of Defense to prevent Obama from making this trip", yes.

This seems to be a plain and simple SNAFU by Obama

If you assume that the Republican-run DoD would never, ever act politically to make the presumptive Democratic nominee look bad, yeah.

What, von, you going to tell us that the DoD is just so completely honest and reliable that we know it would never, ever lie about something for a political purpose? At least, not since 2003... er, 2004 wasn't a good year either... 2005... oh, well, I guess not.


This also reminds me, WTF are we still doing with bases in Germany more than 60 years after WWII and more than 15 years after the cold war?

TPM's editorializing:

"It's unclear how Obama could have made the visit at all, given the Pentagon's directives. No Senate staff was on the trip, and the Obama camp says they received the Pentagon's directives on Wednesday, after they were already abroad."

...WTF are we still doing with bases in Germany more than 60 years after WWII and more than 15 years after the cold war?

Ensuring access to delicious beer and sausages? Maybe a nice, fruity Spatlese now and then.

Mind you, if Obama had had Senate staff on his campaign trip (thus allowing him to visit the tropos), the Right would have attacked him for having taxpayer funded staffers on a campaign trip.

I am so sick of this deliberate bad-faith Catch-22 bullflop, this insistance that Obama do some kind of placatory dance in order to appeal to the numbnuts on the Right whose entire repertoire (and raison d'etre, near as I can tell) consists of Manufactured Outrage.

I'd be Obama's slave for life if he up and told 'em all - including McCain - to Piss Up A Rope.

Ugh: WTF are we still doing with bases in Germany more than 60 years after WWII and more than 15 years after the cold war?

Because there were no German terrorist attacks on the WTC to force the President to withdraw.

Less cynically, because it's useful to the US to have large permanent military bases in central Europe, for refuelling stops, treating wounded soldiers, transferring extrajudical prisoners for torture, etc.

The Son of Cain is a veteran. That will serve as a handy excuse why he can and Obama can't (no allusion to the campaign slogan intended).
My bet is that this "longstanding regulation" is one invoked highly selectivly. Would not be the first case of its kind (cg. "flag abuse").

"This also reminds me, WTF are we still doing with bases in Germany more than 60 years after WWII and more than 15 years after the cold war?"

An imperial military needs bases all over the world, of course.

(Don't like "imperial" as a word choice? Substitute your own functional equivalent: the point remains the same.)

Why does he need staff to pay a visit? Regular people don’t need staff to pay a visit.

An imperial military needs bases all over the world, of course.

(Don't like "imperial" as a word choice? Substitute your own functional equivalent: the point remains the same.)

Uh, I've got my own ideas of what word or words to use, but in the interests of comity amongst most of the commentariat, imperial suits me just fine.

But really, I'd be willing to give up our access to delicious beer and sausages, not to mention sushi, Brunello, and other assorted delicacies available where our military is currently stationed across the globe in exchange for getting them the fnck out of all those countries.

"But really, I'd be willing to give up our access to delicious beer and sausages, not to mention sushi, Brunello, and other assorted delicacies available where our military is currently stationed across the globe in exchange for getting them the fnck out of all those countries."


But then how could we put the "F" back in "Freedom"?

Besides, everyone loves our...

...bases.

No, really. Totally.

They're convenient.

They're convenient.

We have a base in Naples? Sweet, I'll be there in October, maybe I'll stop by and tell the troops they can go home.

"This also reminds me, WTF are we still doing with bases in Germany more than 60 years after WWII and more than 15 years after the cold war?"

I'm currently stationed in Germany and I can tell you a few things why we are here.

1. The beer and schnitzel are terrific (not the best reason but certainly my favorite)
2. We are best located to respond to anything that happens in Europe or Africa.
3. We do a lot of training with foreign military forces in NATO and future NATO countries (currently conducting training in Georgia, Romania, and Bulgaria). Simply the best example of "Partnership for Peace" that you can get.
4. Higherups still look at Russia funny occasionally.

On the flip side paying for us to be here is insanely expensive. If you the tax payer knew what it costs to keep us here, especially with the weak dollar you would not be pleased.

If this was a "longstanding Department of Defense regulation[]," isn't it the responsibility of Obama's staff to know of it?

Wouldn't it be even more the responsibility of the military officials who were helping to plan the visit?

OCSteve:
I’m sure you can guess that on the right that translates to “He canceled because he couldn’t get a photo op out of it.”

Given he apparently planned to leave media behind from the beginning, and had no Senate staff along -- your translation is entirely in error.

From the reporst I read, the Germany trip was done without any Senate staff to avoid the appearance of a Congressional trip. (Other parts of his trip WHERE done as part of a Congressional trip, I think). The Obama campaign was working under the assumption, until the last minute, that Obama was to be allowed a private (him + staff, no media) visit on the last day of the trip.

It was arranged to be the opposite of a campaign event. And it was scuttled at the last minute by the Pentagon.

It's not really OCSteve's translation. I'm inclined to agree that some will translate the cancellation the OCSteve says they will. I don't think OCSteve himself shares that translation.

...the way OCSteve says they will.

Obama could have driven up the gate with his campaign staff, got out of the car, paid a respecful and informative visit to the hospital, met wounded soldiers, learned something, and gone back to his campaign.

I mean how often does one get a chance to visit such an important hospital and see exactly how our military facilities treat our war wounded? Obama has never had the chance before and may not have it again for a very, very long time.

But since he could not get any campaign milage out of a visit, in typical Obama fashion, he decided to blow the hospital visit off his agenda and go sightseeing instead.

It's not really OCSteve's translation. I'm inclined to agree that some will translate the cancellation the OCSteve says they will. I don't think OCSteve himself shares that translation.

No of course not, he'll say it is how other people on his side of the fence see it. The same as he did the other day when pointing out, as he does here, that if you tell lies about someone, you can make them look bad to people to stupid to know that they are being lied to. He also pointed out that if you take someone's quotes completely out of context you can make them look bad to people too stupid to be aware of such tactics.

Left unexplained is the reason he is hanging out on the stupid side of the fence, given that he is not stupid.

I mean how often does one get a chance to visit such an important hospital and see exactly how our military facilities treat our war wounded?

Right, because a sitting United States Senator never goes to military hospitals. (Much less introduces legislation to improve them, as Obama did in 2007.)

WTF are we still doing with bases in Germany more than 60 years after WWII and more than 15 years after the cold war?

Oh, just small stuff, like running the invasion of Iraq for instance.

Which was actually (or rather, should have been) a problem for Germany, since its constitution forbids any wars of aggression originating from German soil. But for all their peacenik sanctimoniousness, neither Schröder, nor Fischer ever brought the issue up for some reason and dutifully provided extra manpower to guard the US bases.

...he'll say it is how other people on his side of the fence see it.

Do you mean the side where all the people who plan to vote for Obama sit?

Which was actually (or rather, should have been) a problem for Germany, since its constitution forbids any wars of aggression originating from German soil. But for all their peacenik sanctimoniousness, neither Schröder, nor Fischer ever brought the issue up for some reason and dutifully provided extra manpower to guard the US bases.

Paying the same respect to the German constitution that Bush has to America's.

Do you mean the side where all the people who plan to vote for Obama sit?

I mean the side of the fence where people find it a convincing argument that McCain is "concerned with their issues while Obama is off impressing the Germans". That is the side of the fence he claims to hang out on, and for which he feels the need to offer explanations.

Since OC Steve is so good at recognizing how the wingnuts will interpret Obama's every move, I think he should tell us just how wonderful their response would have been had he visited the troops in the hospital as part of his campaign. Somehow, even I, who am not as prescient about the right wing's reaction, can just hear the outcry about him using the troops for political gain.

If this isn't a catch 22, I don't know one when I see it, I guess.

now_what: I don’t know what you’re comment is all about. Are we back to OCSteve the Rove plant, here to turn all of ObWi against Obama?

I’ve got to work out a flat rate, ‘cause I’m dying working on commission…

I mean the side of the fence where people find it a convincing argument that McCain is "concerned with their issues while Obama is off impressing the Germans". That is the side of the fence he claims to hang out on, and for which he feels the need to offer explanations.

I'm not really sure what "the side of the fence he claims to hang out on" means exactly. Does that mean he claims to think just like the people who think McCain is "concerned with their issues while Obama is off impressing the Germans" and, therefore, thinks that himself? I'd like to see where OCSteve makes such a claim.

I do agree with you, Oyster Tea, about the catch 22. I just don't get the "hanging out on the side of the fence" thing.

Actually, OCSteve, if I had a complaint about you in general it would be that you still have the tendency to swallow right-wing spin as gospel. Or perhaps your tendency to react to things by "How will the GOP spin this" as opposed to "How was it in reality".

You seem to fight it, but your reflexive response here was to take the GOP spin as true without checking closely.

"It was a campaign event for the press". Well, no, it wasn't. The plans, from the beginning, were to go with no press. No photographers.

Sure, he could have left all his staffers at the front gate and gone in alone....and he'd have been blasted for that. McCain's spin would have been "Oh, since he couldn't get the media to go, he made a big deal of going by himself so they'd HAVE to cover it".

As noted -- Obama's visited a number of such hospitals, without media. He's sponsered bills to improve them even as the "troop-supporting GOP" tries to cut their funding.

But all that doesn't matter, against a single spin-point from the GOP. Suddenly, it's gospel.

Stop reacting and start researching first. And before you say "Oh, but the dumb masses won't and that's what matters..."

I don't care about the dumb masses. Karl Rove and his ilk turned Cleland's own service against him. They'll take anything, no matter what, and twist it against their enemies. So there's no point trying to stop it, and there's no point even caring.

And more importantly -- we're not the dumb masses here.

Oyster Tea: Sure thing.

Some would have decried it as a photo op and nothing more. The best way to defuse that would have been to go with just Senate staffers/resources - or by himself if he had no staffers with. IMO that is almost expected of a Senator passing through the area. They really could not make too much out of that. Coincidentally it sounds like that’s all the military wanted.

I mean – “Senator Obama took time out of his campaign trip to visit wounded troops.” That’s a little bit tough to spin into something negative that sticks…

Morat20: Covered on the other thread.

I'm done in any case.

And more importantly -- we're not the dumb masses here.

Well, geez, speak for yourself.

I don’t know what you’re (sic) comment is all about

It's about a direct quote from you from one day ago. You did the same thing you are doing here, the "some might say" act. Some might say Obama is less concerned with people in the US than he is in impressing Germans. Some might say Obama should be more careful in choosing his words lest he be maliciously taken out of context. Some might say he canceled his visit because he couldn't get a photo op out of it.

And you have said that it is the people on your side of the fence (your wording) who are the "some".

And I find the argument obnoxious. Yes, if you lie about people, you can make them look bad to people who don't catch the lie. Yes, if you misquote people, you can make them look bad to people who don't catch the misquote. These things are trivially true. The question is why are the other people on your side of the fence so easily taken in by fallacious arguments and vicious lies?

now_what: I was trying to share some insight from a perspective that most folks here aren’t that familiar with. But some aren’t interested – don’t want to hear it, and others have it all figured out. I won’t bother any more.

I’m beginning to suspect that a lot of folks will be hanging around here on Nov. 5 bitching and moaning and trying to figure out how such a thing could have possibly happened (an Obama loss). It’ll get blamed on rigged voting machines or racism – but it’s happening right here and now in front of you.

You don’t see it because you know what’s really up. Great. Sleep tight.

Really done now.

We have a base in Naples? Sweet, I'll be there in October, maybe I'll stop by and tell the troops they can go home.

You are going to Naples? Voluntarily?

Seriously though, I have to words for you. Carney Park.

Inside a dormant volcano just outside of Naples and reserved for US military personnel. It's a blast, especially on fourth of July in the mid to late 80's.

Me, I always jumped the first train to Rome or Tuscany. But then, I was mostly trying to avoid the other squids.

I mean – “Senator Obama took time out of his campaign trip to visit wounded troops.” That’s a little bit tough to spin into something negative that sticks…


With all due respect Steve, you obviously don't understand the right side of the blogosphere.

Would you care for some examples? Or have you really seen them already? All this time? I doubt it.

You are going to Naples? Voluntarily?

More passing through on the way to the Amalfi coast. But probably will spend at least one night there (though that will likely be the night before jumping on a 6:45am flight home).

"It’ll get blamed on rigged voting machines or racism"

Or the inability of many people to think rationally, understand fallacies, fact-check, investigate if they're being lied to, and the general propensity of at least a third of the population of America to be particularly indifferent to, or unable to, enage in any of these things if it's Democrats or "liberals" or some other hate object being attacked.

Along with a lot of inability to understand that innumerable people outside their personal view live lives different from theirs, and a lack of interest in looking into how and why that might be, and a lack of caring, particularly a lack of caring about those who aren't middle class, or aren't American.

I was trying to share some insight from a perspective that most folks here aren’t that familiar with

We are familiar with it, though. Obama could say, "I don't think we should release every child molester from prison", and the loonier members of the right wing would then quote Obama as saying, "We should release every child molester from prison". From your arguments the last two days, you presumably would then chastise Obama for saying things that could be used against him, instead of holding liars responsible for being liars and instead of holding an evil and destructive political organization responsible for being harmful to the United States of America.

We're familiar with the perspective. What's not so clear is what the hell to do about it. We can't fix stupid. Should we adopt those tactics, since they are so successful on your side of the fence?

I was trying to share some insight from a perspective that most folks here aren’t that familiar with

We are familiar with it, though.

Really, I've been reading those folks since 2001, and read Memeorandum regularly. That's why I know so thoroughly well how impossible it is to do anything to make them see reason. They're self-selected extremists lost in an echo chamber of ever-increasing looniness, for the most part.

"What's not so clear is what the hell to do about it."

Best thing I can think of is put out the truth, and focus on doing what's productive, and not being dragged down by wasting much time and energy on lunatics.

now_what: We are familiar with it, though.

No. You are not.

Obama is getting his a** kicked this week. Disregard that if it makes you feel better. It is still happening.

Good night.

OCSteve,
Obama is getting his a** kicked in the same places, by the same tactics, by the same people as he or any other Dem would.
From my perspective, he didn't have that much of a chance in the general anyway, but things being what they are, this year was his best chance, as was Hillary's. The Amer. public is sick of what they have. The question is, are they really ready for something different?

now_what: We are familiar with it, though.

No. You are not.

OCSteve: you occupy a different position in the political spectrum than most of the commenters here. However, this does not mean that they (we) are incapable of seeing the same thing you are seeing. You seem to be arguing that he's doing everything wrong ATM. As has been pointed out upthread, would he be better treated if he were doing something else? He would not. He's a center-rightist who's desperately triangulating - and it's not enough, it can't be enough. The lazy feckless corporate media won't warm to him and will try to crucify him at the behest of the rightward pols. That it'll be for their best beloved McCain is but icing.

More pointedly:

Obama is getting his a** kicked this week. Disregard that if it makes you feel better. It is still happening.

And what does not disregarding it do? Do you have a course of action that you think will change this? I ask this not rhetorically. Sincerely, do you know something that might be done otherwise, as to avoid such unpleasantry? Because if not, there's no call to disregard it or not, it'll be the same one way or the other.

It was called off because because Gration was pissed off that he couldn't go with Obama and would have to wait in the plane. Gration knows the military rules. He used to be stationed at Ramstein for crying out loud, not to mention that he was a...... GENERAL.....HELLO! He knows that media coverage is never allowed in military hospitals out of concerns for patient privacy. That is the reason for the military photographer. Decorum and privacy insurance. No unauthorized photographs taken on the sly. It is not allowed in civilian hospitals for the same reason as far as I know. Why didn't he advise Obama of this from the very beginning?

Obama canceled because he did not want to alienate Gration by leaving him to cool his heels sitting in the plane. That is my opinion. There was absolutely no other reason that Obama could not have gone on to see the soldiers with just a military escort (along with his Secret Service escort)as a Senator or private citizen on a private visit. I am sure some of those soldiers would have been thrilled to have their picture taken with Obama by the Military photographer. Some, not all.

http://www.eucom.mil/english/CommandStaff/gration.htm

13. September 1990 - August 1991, F-16 instructor pilot and operations officer, 512th Fighter Squadron, Ramstein AB, Germany

This is VERY interesting reading also........
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/12701/?ck=1
http://polarik.blogtownhall.com/

Where is the Senate investigation on this one?

Meanwhile, John McCain is in Denver the other day and instead of visiting the VA Hospital he jets off to Aspen to visit the Dali Lama. Sounds more like Sean Penn than someone who supports our military.

/snark

Why does McCain hate our troops?

Personally, I'm very grateful for OCSteve's take on how it looks. If it doesn't interest someone else, they could just skip to the next comment.

Part of the reason I'm interested is that I don't think it's nearly enough to say: they will hate everything anyone does. They will hate different things in different ways. Best to be prepared.

Personally, I'm very grateful for OCSteve's take on how it looks.

Same here. Not just to be prepared, but because we all live here and we all damned well better learn how to get along.

That said:

I appreciate that some folks are not that interested in the rest of the world. I'm not sure that's a very helpful point of view, but it's a legitimate point of view, nonetheless.

What I have no patience with are people who embrace their own ignorance like it was their best friend.

People who think Obama is a Muslim are ignorant.
People who think he is a communist are ignorant.
People who think any of the 10,000 other insane things that are handed around as gospel on the various right wing media outlets are ignorant.

Not stupid. Ignorant. Lacking the facts.

It's not hard to find out the truth about stuff like this. Any knucklehead can do it. I can do it -- Q.E.D.

IMO the best possible thing to do about folks who, for whatever reason, steadfastly refuse to inform themselves about even the most rudimentary facts concerning our public life is to freaking ignore them.

I don't care if they vote, I don't care who they vote for. There's not a damned thing I or anyone else can do to make even the tiniest dent in their consciousness, so I refuse to waste my time.

My only goal is to outvote them. Period.

If folks want anything from me in the way of understanding their point of view, they have to at least get off of their @ss and get some information. Then, they need to demonstrate some interest in *my* point of view. That's called "meeting me halfway".

Then I'm happy to have a conversation. Otherwise, they're just in my way.

My two cents.

I have another rant available about "the heartland", but I'll save it for another time.

Needless to say, OC, none of this is directed toward you. IMO, everything you post here is a demonstration of good faith.

Thanks -

Hilzoy: I’ll shoot you an em if something looks like a problem. For the rest – well, I was told the other day (correctly) “a wise man would have stopped there” – to which I responded something like “a wise man would not have wasted his time”.

I think for once I’ll take my own advice.

russell:

Thanks -

Steve, I wasn't trying to discourage you from, or stop you from, posting about stuff that you think needs addressing, or attention. If it seemed as if I was, I apologize, as that was not my intent at all.

I'm just not sure what you want people here to do about it. And I lack patience, myself, with bothering to respond to the endless stream of unbelievably stupid and incredible (that word has a specific meaning) accusations churned up against Obama and Democrats every damned day of the week by the lunatic fringe.

I just lack patience with dealing with the people who are so credulous that they believe in that sort of stuff, or even pay attention to it, at all, I'm afraid. That you have more patience is to your credit, and to my discredit, not vice versa.

I'm happy to read here what you think is worth paying attention to, or should be noticed, and I value hearing that from you, so please go on doing it. Just don't expect me to patiently give it credence, or worry about the kind of dimwits who do.

You I have lots of time for.

Gary – that was in no way directed at you. You and I have had this conversation at least 5 times I would say.

If enough people tell you that you are drunk – it’s time to sit down…


If enough people tell you that you are drunk – it’s time to sit down…

Sounds to me like you are performing a public service for the rest of us by "checking" the contents of the punchbowl, so we'll know if it's safe to drink (or not). Some after effects are to be expected in that situation. Thanks for what you do, you're a better man than I!

Now let me go fetch a pillow for you..

:-)

Btw, Obama "death lists" begin to circulate.
Beginning with beheading classmates at the tender age of 9 (a mandatory initiation for all muslim boys) and including people that were already murdered by the Clintons. the latter is obviously a proof that Big O has also voodoo powers to raise the dead to kill them anew. Other people on the list seem to be nonexisting in the first place, which means that either Obama created them (more voodoo?) or that his satanic powers allow him to erase his victims from memory and databases not shielded by tinfoil. Not to forget that he had the people killed that knew that it was him who met "Mohatma" Atta in Prague.
The most depressing thing here is that there will be lots of people believing this kind of stuff.

WTF are we still doing with bases in Germany more than 60 years after WWII and more than 15 years after the cold war?

From what I remember, back in 1989/1990, as a condition of their leaveing East Germany, the Russians insisted the US stay. Having had certain unpleasant experiences in the past with German aggression, they wanted to have someone handy to prevent any recurrence.

I don't really know for sure, but it seems that the reason for the cancellation had more to do with them not being able to land at the air force base with campaign staff on board the plane then that the visit off the plane would have only been Obama. In other words, I'm wondering if he was not even allowed to land the plane on the base because he had campaign staff on board, thus they were forced to re-route and Obama would not have been able to make it back to the base alone before it was time for him to get back to the states.

"Btw, Obama 'death lists' begin to circulate."

See here and here, and here, for example.

Gary, thanks, I think.

REVEREND DAVID MANNING - Former head of the Trinity Baptist Church in Chicago. Was murdered during the apparent robbery of a catfish restaurant in 1972.

When he was 11, Obama ordered a hit on the pastor of the church he was going to join more than ten years later? I can't WAIT to vote for this guy.

MERCEDES HUGLEY, one of Obama’s many white, female conquests while at Harvard.

To quote Blazing Saddles- "Hey! Where the white women at?"

But jeeze. Obama 'death lists?' I'm crawling in a hole until November.

Btw, Obama "death lists" begin to circulate.

Two can play at this game.

Where was McCain when Jimmy Hoffa went missing?

Isn't there a lot of doubt about whether Albert DeSalvo was the Boston Strangler?

And who killed the Black Dahlia?

Thanks -

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