Just For Giggles

by hilzoy

From NRO's Campaign Spot (h/t Attackerman):

"So, the recent news out of the Obama camp is that they're planning a huge rally with thousands of people in a stadium, want to create a mandatory youth corps for national service, and are thinking about a big dramatic speech in Berlin.

It's like they're trying to sell copies of Jonah's book or something."

OMG! *hits self on the head.* Why didn't I see the ominous parallels before?

Obviously, giving a big dramatic speech in Berlin is a sure sign of incipient fascism.

And holding a big rally? In a stadium? Any moment now, Obama will be intoning one of my favorite ever lines from a Presidential speech: "But why, some say, the moon?" breaking out the yellow stars.

If he wins the election, then the parallel to Hitler will be complete, and our fates will be sealed.

***

Minor point: about that "mandatory youth corps": in the piece Geraghty links to, he describes Obama's proposal as "very close to echoing John Kerry's Orwellian call for mandatory volunteerism." In NRO-speak, "very close to echoing" just means: he didn't actually say it, but if I squinch my face up very hard, wish upon a star, and clap as loud as I can, I can pretend that he did. What Obama actually said:

"We'll reach this goal in several ways. At the middle and high school level, we'll make federal assistance conditional on school districts developing service programs, and give schools resources to offer new service opportunities. At the community level, we'll develop public-private partnerships so students can serve more outside the classroom.

For college students, I have proposed an annual American Opportunity Tax Credit of $4,000. To receive this credit, we'll require 100 hours of public service. You invest in America, and America invests in you - that's how we're going to make sure that college is affordable for every single American, while preparing our nation to compete in the 21st century."

That's not a "mandatory youth corps" by any stretch of the imagination.

Comments

[Adam]

Godwin's Thermodynamic Corollary: Hitlerity increases in proportion to density.

[Shinobi]

You know my HS required 120 hours of service to graduate. (And gave us 2 weeks of JR year to do 2/3s of it.) And honestly, it was one of the most valuable experiences of my life. I worked with the homeless, other people worked with special needs homes and schools. It really taught me to value my opportunities as well as the value of giving back to the community.

I think this is a great idea.

[John Thullen]

Yeah, I remember Gingrich, the pale paunchy satyr, in the 1990's, assailing the idea of FORCING kids to volunteer.

"It's very simple," he would state, simplemindedly.

I never cared for being forced to volunteer to do algebra.

I bridled.

[Adam]

This is something of a sidebar (but really, what is there to say?), but is anyone here at all familiar with the etymology of the term "fascism"? I'd read at some point that fascio (bundles, i.e. around a handle) was used to refer to the groups of nationalists running around Italy assaulting socialist party members who'd been running factories after the war, and that Mussolini adopted the term. But I'm not sure that chronology is right.

[Gus]

They don't call it the world's er, crappiest website for nothing.

[Doctor Science]

Adam:

I always understood that "fascism" it was a reference to the fasces, a long-standing symbol of things like "United We Stand" and "I'm gonna whup you with these sticks". Multivalent, they call it.

[russell]

This is something of a sidebar (but really, what is there to say?), but is anyone here at all familiar with the etymology of the term "fascism"?

It comes from the fasces, a bundle of birch rods containing an axe. It was a symbol of political authority in Rome.

It was a pretty widely used symbol, and (IIRC) shows up in lots of non-fascist places, including US political seals and buildings.

It was adopted by Mussolini for the Italian fascists because he thought fondly of the Roman empire, and because he was really, really big on state authority.

Thanks -

[russell]

P.S. -- please nobody tell the folks at NRO about the Boy Scouts.

Thanks -

[Phil]

Roy Edroso notes that, as usual, these dummies can't even keep their narratives straight for ten seconds:

. . . I went online and found an excerpt from William F. Buckley's Gratitude: Reflections on What We Owe to Our Country, in which the founder of National Review argues for something very similar, powered by incentives and "sanctions":

It is feared by many opponents of national service that the use of state power in whatever form, even in a voluntary program, is nevertheless an effort, even if half-hearted, in that direction: an effort to change the human personality, and for that reason to be resisted categorically... Milton Friedman, my hero, was quoted as finding in national service an "uncanny resemblance" to the Hitler Youth Corps.

This last occasions only the reply that by that token, all youth programs, including the Boy Scouts, can be likened in the sense that they have something in common, to the Hitler Youth program, plus the second comment, that because Hitler had an idea, it does not follow that that idea was bad. (Albert Speer is said to have reflected, soon before his death, that it was a "pity that Adolf Hitler disliked Picasso.")

...Some libertarians will never agree with the Founding Fathers that a responsibility of the polity is to encourage virtue directly, through such disciplines as service in the militia, reverence for religious values, and jury service -- the kind of thing Prime Minister Gladstone had in mind when he proposed "to establish a new franchise, which I should call -- till a better phrase be discovered -- the service franchise." Opponents of national service must establish, to make their case, that national service, unlike the state militia, or jury service, or military conscription in times of emergency, is distinctively hostile to a free society.

Funny, just a few weeks ago they were blubbering over the sainted Buckley. Now he's a liberal fascist.

[liberal japonicus]

God, Edroso just keeps banging out those hits. I loved this

As to content, I've pointed out before that these guys have started using fascism as a synonym for popularity, especially now that nobody likes them.

[Bernard Yomtov]

Of course the comparison is silly, but I must admit I'm not crazy about the idea of a stadium speech. The symbolism seems all wrong. Convention halls feel democratic. Stadiums don't.

[hilzoy]

Bernard: speaking as someone who is part of a blog two of whose members will be going to the convention, but which has only one credential, I am personally thrilled. No flipping coins to see who gets to go to the speech!

[Bernard Yomtov]

hilzoy,

It's nice, of course, that many more people will be able to attend in person, but to me the "atmospherics" of the stadium just seem wrong. Among other things, the connection with the audience is weaker, and the feeling too grandiose. YMMV.

I wonder how it will play on TV.

[Katherine]

The atmospherics of a basketball stadium--which is what most convention centers are--and a football stadium don't seem real different to me. Madison Square Garden isn't exactly intimate; I doubt the Pepsi Center is either. Wbat makes it sound democratic is calling it a convention hall. I prefer an open field to both, but that's unfeasible.

[trollhattan]

Jessie Owens is totally going to mess up Obama's evil scheme. But, they can still release the Surprise Ponies after the speech!

[celticdragon]

"You know my HS required 120 hours of service to graduate. (And gave us 2 weeks of JR year to do 2/3s of it.) And honestly, it was one of the most valuable experiences of my life. I worked with the homeless, other people worked with special needs homes and schools. It really taught me to value my opportunities as well as the value of giving back to the community."

Well, I'm glad that worked out for you. If I had been required to work for free, I would have done everything possible to make the program regret having me there. It's one thing if I decide to go help. Telling me to work for a third party, and not paying me anything at all? I don't think so. I absolutely would have found a way to get injured...get sent to a hospital...waste time...break something....you get the picture.

Helping the homeless or some such is a very good thing. I have donated time to causes in my area. The thing is, I chose to do so. I could leave if I liked. If I was busy or whatever, I wasn't obligated. IT WAS MY TIME!

I'm not sure just what mandatory community service teaches kids, except you can get work out them for free in order to get the diploma.

[celticdragon]

"You know my HS required 120 hours of service to graduate. (And gave us 2 weeks of JR year to do 2/3s of it.) And honestly, it was one of the most valuable experiences of my life. I worked with the homeless, other people worked with special needs homes and schools. It really taught me to value my opportunities as well as the value of giving back to the community."

Well, I'm glad that worked out for you. If I had been required to work for free, I would have done everything possible to make the program regret having me there. It's one thing if I decide to go help. Telling me to work for a third party, and not paying me anything at all? I don't think so. I absolutely would have found a way to get injured...get sent to a hospital...waste time...break something....you get the picture.

Helping the homeless or some such is a very good thing. I have donated time to causes in my area. The thing is, I chose to do so. I could leave if I liked. If I was busy or whatever, I wasn't obligated. IT WAS MY TIME!

I'm not sure just what mandatory community service teaches kids, except you can get work out them for free in order to get the diploma.

[Gary Farber]

"Convention halls feel democratic."

I've run an awful lot of events in them, and I can't say I see why you'd say that. It's not as if one would be, or could, hold a debate in them -- any hall holding more than a thousand people, say -- and an acceptance speech isn't a debate, anyway. It's a speech to the masses, whose only role is to cheer and wave signs.

I don't think every large-scale event smacks of a Nuremburg rally, myself.

And acceptance speeches have always been held in venues where more than 20,000 people could attend. How is going from ~20,000 people to ~70,000 people "less democratic"? What's "democratic" about 20,000 listeners versus 70,000 listeners?

Not to mention that fascist JFK did his acceptance speech in at the Los Angeles Coliseum in 1960.

I can see a difference between a room with 200 people, versus a room of over 1,000, but beyond that difference in scale, what's the significant difference in "democratic-ness," exactly?

Have all the ~20,000 attendee political convention acceptance speech events for the last century and a half been somehow undemocratic?

[Gary Hussein Farber]

"I'm not sure just what mandatory community service teaches kids, "

So who is proposing that, exactly? Cite? Barack Obama isn't, after all. Who is?

[celticdragon]

"So who is proposing that, exactly? Cite? Barack Obama isn't, after all. Who is?"

I'm not quite sure what Barack Obama is actually suggesting. I was responding to the anecdote concerning 120 hours of community service required for graduation from High School. Several districts across the country have similar requirements, and I am absolutely opposed to them. I would have subverted the system in any way possible, and in the most destructive way preferably, had I been forced to work for free in order to get my diploma.

[Gary Farber]

"I'm not quite sure what Barack Obama is actually suggesting."

Then make yourself familiar with what he's proposing, and we can talk about it.

[Phil]

I would have subverted the system in any way possible, and in the most destructive way preferably, had I been forced to work for free in order to get my diploma.

Which is, in fact, exactly what happened, unless your report cards happened to come with paychecks attached. (Mine didn't.) Or unless you happened to pass through high school without ever being, you know, tested or graded.

It would appear, however, that your clever subversion of your education was eminently successful.

[Texas Dem]

You can tell the right is getting desperate when they start comparing Obama to Hitler. I'm starting to lose some respect for the right wing smear machine. Is that the best they can do? I know this election is far from over but I'm starting to get the feeling that some people on the right are basically throwing in the towell. They seem to know that McCain is doomed and they're psychologically packing their bags for exile.

[celticdragon]

"Which is, in fact, exactly what happened, unless your report cards happened to come with paychecks attached. (Mine didn't.) Or unless you happened to pass through high school without ever being, you know, tested or graded.

It would appear, however, that your clever subversion of your education was eminently successful."

Ah! Snarky insults for anyone you disagree with! I just love anonymity, don't you?

I don't equate school attendance with work, as you seem to. Nothing in my posts suggests that I did. Perhaps your reading comprehension skills could use some brushing up...but I digress. School "work" is not a commodity that can be sold or traded wrt your time spent. Working in a homeless shelter, doing dishes or whatever "community service" is done, is in fact, a commodity with actual value, both intrinsic and monetarily. I am all for volunteer work, and have donated time to causes I thought worthwhile. I cannot imagine what is to be learned from compulsory service, except that it is a way of getting something of value from you for absolutely nothing...including your time that may be better spent elsewhere, such as: band practice, watching over your siblings while your parents are at work, studying for the SAT, doing the schoolwork you know you have been putting off, or even actually doing PAID WORK!