"He Didn't Know Enough About The Group"

by hilzoy

Quote Of The Day:

"U.S. Congressional candidate Tony Zirkle is facing criticism from one of his primary opponents, and a host of people on the Internet, for speaking at an event over the weekend that celebrated Adolf Hitler's birthday.

Zirkle confirmed to The News-Dispatch on Monday he spoke Sunday in Chicago at a meeting of the Nationalist Socialist Workers Party, whose symbol is a swastika.

When asked if he was a Nazi or sympathized with Nazis or white supremacists, Zirkle replied he didn't know enough about the group to either favor it or oppose it."

Um: how can you possibly be old enough to run for Congress and not know enough to decide whether you support or oppose the Nazis?

""This is just a great opportunity for me to witness," he said, referring to his message and his Christian belief.

He also told WIMS radio in Michigan City that he didn't believe the event he attended included people necessarily of the Nazi mindset, pointing out the name isn't Nazi, but Nationalist Socialist Workers Party."

Unlike the actual Nazis, whose name was, well, the National Socialist German Workers Party.

You might be thinking: well, not everyone knows the name of the original Nazi party. Mightn't Mr. Zirkle just not have known who he was talking to?

That's Mr. Zirkle giving his speech. Somehow, I don't think ignorance is the real explanation here. Especially since he was talking about Jewish pornographers and the threat they pose to whites.

***

I always wonder how people end up like this. Was Mr. Zirkle a normal kid once? By what trajectory could he possibly have ended up giving this speech to a group of Nazis at a Hitler's birthday celebration? I can sort of understand how people become cranky conspiracy theorists who worry about fluoridation or black helicopters. I can also understand how people take deliberately provocative views to bug their parents or their community. But wouldn't you think that when you find yourself in the company of actual Nazis in front of a Swastika flag and a great big picture of Hitler, you'd realize that you had gone too far? And if that didn't make you realize that you had crossed some pretty serious lines, what exactly would?

(h/t Orac)

Comments

[DaveC]

Oh for goodness sakes. They have a banner that says "Happy Bi" something or other. This may have simply been a birthday party gone bad.

[DaveC]

This could have been Joe Hitler or something, you never know. It just looks bad.

[Mike Schilling]

Jewish pornographers

He even got that wrong. It's left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers.

[russell]

I always wonder how people end up like this.

A question for the ages. Best I can make out is some folks are just messed up. Whether nature, nurture, or plain old ignorance, laziness, and stupidity, is anyone's guess.

It's too many for me. I have no idea.

I do think it takes some effort, though. It doesn't happen by accident.

But hey, here's my quote of the day from Zirkle's website:

Let's save our Jewish brothers and sisters from this tyrant king porn dragon before we get to another world-wide pogrom.

See, he only has the best interests of our Jewish friend sat heart.

h/t Atrios and Think Progress.

Maybe the guy's just the biggest dope on the face of the earth, or maybe he's a real, honest to God Nazi. I'm not a mind reader, although I'd say the evidence points to him being a little closer to the sieg heil end of the spectrum.

But mark my words, "tyrant king porn dragon" is a phrase for all time. It's a vision that could only be conjured by some toxic mix of old Bruce Lee movies and late nights watching Girls Gone Wild videos while eating bad leftover moo shi pork.

This guy's one weird dude.

I will also note that Indiana has a long and colorful history as the home of this kind of cornpone white supremacism. Not the only place like that, and I'm not trying to pick on anyone, it just is what it is.

Thanks -

[Mike Schilling]

From the same article Hilzoy links to, moral equivalence gone wild:

"That's the risk you have to take to get your point across," Zirkle said. "If the Black Panthers or the Jewish Zionists want me to speak about these issues, I'll do it."

[russell]

If the Black Panthers or the Jewish Zionists want me to speak about these issues, I'll do it.

LOL. I mean, literally, I'm laughing out loud.

That, my friends, would be a rare piece of entertainment.

Thanks -

[Aaron]

In case anyone was free on Wednesday, April 30th, Zirkle will be discussing his plans for a "Derrenger's for Dildos" policy to put guns in American women's hands instead of divorce aids."

[LT Nixon]

I wish the porn dragon would pay me a visit.

[Jay Jerome]

Poor Tony, even though it's obvious he's just speaking out against Jews involved in pornography to help them, dontcha know, apparently some people are taking it the wrong way:

"I've been getting a flood of e-mails and phone calls, some of which include death threats"

Really? Who woudda thought? Maybe some of the links he provides to articles in Aljazeera (Sex slavery: Israel’s low but thriving trade) and to Jewwatch (Jew Kiddie Snuff Porn: Jewish Gangsters Raped, Killed Children As Young As 2 On Film) explain people's confusion about his motives.

Even his Republican associates seem to have the wrong idea about him: the Republican Co. chair 'dis-invited' him to attend the Carroll County Republican meeting at Carroll High School -- he had cleared his calendar to be there, but after the dis-invite, stayed away.

[Pinko Punko]

Seriously, the "Happy Birthday" banner gets me everytime. I wonder if they were able to get a bakery that could do a swastika trim sheet cake.

Has any one quoted Jake and Elwood yet?

"I hate Illinois Nazis"

Cue the Wagner!

[Jay Jerome]

"I wish the porn dragon would pay me a visit."

Or you can pay the porn dragon a visit:
(probably what Tony did after the dis-invite)

Adults ONLY!

[John Thullen]

I give up.

I can't make fun of this guy, since he's so good at it his own self.

However, we Jewish pornographers (well, Presbyterian with naughty thoughts) must ask:

Did he do the funny walk when he left the podium?

[Uncle Jeffy]

Have you taken a look at Zirkle's website? This guy is from beyond the orbit of Pluto.

[Brick Oven Bill]

Mike Schilling says:
…“moral equivalence gone wild”

Human nature is raw, and in many ways the Nazis reflect it. Everybody likes to laugh at the Nazis because we can call them ‘bad guys’. Western leaders kept Hitler in place because they correctly believed that he would do more damage if he was kept alive. As an aside, Hitler hated Christianity, a religion which he considered ‘flabby’. He wished that the French would have lost at the Battle of Tours. He may have had a point.

But the Nazi ideology is actually milder than black liberation:

“Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him.”;

or Islam:

009.029
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

The reasons that the modern left mocks Germany-1938, and coddles the more raw ideologies, is that wealthy liberals consider black and brown people to be stupid, and incapable of executing plans.

[russell]

But the Nazi ideology is actually milder than black liberation

Sit down with a pad and paper and point your browser to your favorite search engine. As an alternative, take a walk to your local library, they'll appreciate the business.

Search as far and wide as you like and find every case of someone murdered by a black liberation theologian, or even someone murdered by someone influenced by black liberation theology. For each case, make a mark on your pad.

When you're done, add up the marks. If they exceed the number of folks killed by Nazis and their sympathizers, I'll buy you lunch. In fact, if you even fill up one page on your pad, I'll buy you lunch.

No fair using a big Sharpie, it's gotta be a pencil.

I don't expect to be buying you lunch.

wealthy liberals consider black and brown people to be stupid, and incapable of executing plans.

I could reply to this, but it would make the kitty cry.

I have no freaking idea what planet you're on, Bill. It ain't mine.

Thanks -

Is it just me, or is 'Zirkle' curiously redolent of 'Hinkel'?

[Sebastian]

If he isn't bright enough to pick up the subtle cues that those people were Pro-NAZI, perhaps he isn't bright enough to be a Congressman (barely).

[matttbastard]

Bill has officially bunny-hopped the shark.

But, hey, at least he's oh-so-fncking civil; that's really what is most important, innit?

Jesus wept.

[John Thullen]

Bill:

"wealthy liberals consider black and brown people to be stupid, and incapable of executing plans."

What's the annual income cutoff (or is it one of those secrets?) on this class of people, because I need to know whether or not to consider myself maligned?

I guess money does come with the elite status conferred on me by my association with Obama. Plus, we both get to be stupid.

Stupid and elite. But, can I manage stupid and effete simultaneously. I don't know, can I?

Show me the money.

Incidentally, since we've accounted for wealthy liberals and stupid black people, Bill, what accounts for you?

[Sean M. Brooks]

Dear Hilzoy: I hope you are well.

And, considering how tired I am from gall bladder surgery, I shouldn't be blogging at all. But, a quick note!

But, I agree Mr. Zirkle went way too far. There are certain groups self respecting (or ar least prudent)pols should not associate with. Communists and Nazis being two of them. Albert Speer's INSIDE THE THIRD REICH and Alexander Solzhenitsyn's THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO should be REQUIRED reading for all pols.

The crueties and abominations of the Communists and Nazis make them UNFIT company for any decent persons. And, I hope Mr. Zirle loses his race for Congress.

Sincerely, Sean

[Loneoak]

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community.

Wow, that is sooo radical sounding! I mean, its almost as if Black Theology is insisting that god must be in favor of liberating the black community from oppression. Which is roughly equivalent to murdering 12 million people!

Bill wins moron of the day.

[hilzoy]

Bill: Wow.

[hilzoy]

Sean: I hope the recovery goes smoothly. Long interesting books, that's my advice - although to judge by your earlier reading list, it sounds as though you already know that. ;)

[Jon H]

Bill: just what do you mean to put in that 'brick oven'?

[Hartmut]

According to the Rude Pundit there actually is a porn dragon

Strangely, Porn Dragon is one of the Rude Pundit's favorite Japanese animated porn films, featuring tentacle rape, smelly white panties, and a black dragon with a fire-shooting dick. Although he always wondered why the dragon was circumcised and wore a yarmulke, yet still could dance. Now Zirkle has answered that.

Could not find it on imdb though (that does not necessarily mean that there is no such film. Japanese can be really weird).
---
Well, Zirkle obviously mistook those guys for the Charlie Chaplin Appreciation Society rehearsing "The Producers". Maybe the http://bp3.blogger.com/_bO3X-B8OBjI/R0sNZ-s_alI/AAAAAAAAAI4/Lz4vML9ny38/s400/Chanukka+Zombie.jpg>Chanukka Zombie will visit him and clarify things.

[felix culpa]

Paging Mr. Barnum.
Mr. Barnum, please come to the front desk.
We have a live one.
Paging Mr.Barnum.

(That’s re Zirkle. B.O. Bill, well, maybe for a sideshow.)

Z gives cites a bad name. Anyone notice christianparty.net/snuffjews.htm?

If I heard correctly, the aspiring congressperson said St. Augustine said prostitution should be allowed (which while beyond my expertise is possible, given his prostitute inamorata and his asking God not to save him yet), and that led to the barbarian invasion and the fall of Rome.

As B.O. Bill said, human nature is raw (and proceeded to demonstrate how raw his is). I guess that might explain his war on civilization. For him it’s all just one big razor-wire cage and the answer is the war of all against all.

Given the Republican record of opposing vices secretly treasured Zirkle shows signs of pornography addiction. (As JJ suggested.)

[md 20/400]

He isn't the brightest bulb. The banner for his campaign's website has a picture of the U.S. Capitol Supreme Court. If he ever gets to Washington, he's gonna need a lot of help to tell his knee from his elbow.

[Tsam]

Sorry, I couldn' resist mentioning the other elephant in the room.

[OCSteve]

Tsam: LOL. Thanks for that.

[ral]

Vote Hilter.

[DaveC]

That's not fair!

[borehole]

>>But wouldn't you think that when you find yourself in the company of actual Nazis in front of a Swastika flag and a great big picture of Hitler, you'd realize that you had gone too far?<<

If I was a white supremacist? Probably not.

Ow! I just cut myself. I gotta get an Occam's sheath.

[russell]

Brick Oven Bill -

Now that I've reassembled the various parts of my head left over after the explosion, kindly allow me to offer this thought for you to consider.

You seem to read things in books or websites and assume that they are an accurate reflection of what people actually do.

Life's not like that.

Perhaps you might consider what people actually *do*. It might shed a different light on things for you.

To give two simple concrete examples:

There are a billion and half Muslims in the world. Most of them, by far, don't spend their time hewing infidels to bits. Perhaps that is worth noticing.

To my knowledge, no black liberation theologian has ever killed anyone. At least not as an expression of their theology. Perhaps that is worth noticing.

Thanks -

[lightning]

Perhaps he was thinking "good publicity is where they spell your name right". Hopefully, he's wrong.

He's not the ony one to get conned. I'd think that these guys would have staff to check out organizations specifically to keep this kind of thing from happening.

Intelligence is not a qualification for political office.

[novakant]

I always wonder how people end up like this.

Well, Reagan in Bitburg was pretty cringeworthy too - ok he didn't celebrate Hitler's birthday, but then he wasn't just a Congressional candidate either.

[now_what]

So we are supposed to be outraged and/or amused by this, but not by a politician giving a speech in front of a GOP banner?

Extremely selective, this outrage and/or amusement is.

[Steven Donegal]

I assume this conclusively establishes that Mr. Zirkle is a liberal.

[Sean M. Brooks]

Dear Hilzoy. Thanks for your note.

Yes,I'm recovering, I think, faster than I expected. Still tired, tho. So, I've been taking naps.

Glad you liked my reading choices. I was trying to think of two quick examples of books about national and international fascism I wish more of our leaders would read.

I'm ASTONISHED and dismayed that Mr. Zirkle is running for Congress. I hope he loses. We don't need him there!

Sincerely, Sean

[Hartmut]

Another gem by Mr.Zirkle

I'm considering discussing divorce aids and my plans for a "Derringer's for Dildos" policy to put guns in American women's hands instead of divorce aids. I may discuss the historical fact that before there were Nazi doctors, there were divorce aid doctors. I may also call attention to the fact that one of the biggest commercial frauds is that divorce aids market themselves as for "novelty purposes only" so that they can avoid all consumer safety inspections and then go to court and claim they have a 1st Amendment right to privacy to abuse their bodies. Who knows what toxic chemicals these women are inserting into the most intimate areas of their bodies and how many men chase children because they can not find comfort from an adult women. Ezekiel noted women make male images and committed whoredom with them just before their 70 years of slavery, and Bertrand of Worms implored women to set aside their divorce aids about a generation before the crusades began.

(copied from the comment section at Orcinus)

[Blutarski]

He's just a mainstream Republican with really bad public relations instincts.

[Redhand]

Springtine for Hitler I guess.

[Svensker]

"divorce aid"? This guy has lotsa issues.

And, Bill, before you cast aspersions against Muslims for the gritty bits in the Koran, you may want to read some portions of the Old Testament -- you know the parts about stoning adulterers, slaying all the non-believers, etc. Then you might want to flip to the New Testament and reread Matthew 7:3, concentrating on that old beam-mote analogy.

[Tom Scudder]

Back up the page, to Jay Jerome's post: note that the aljazeera link is to aljazeera.com, NOT aljazeera.net, which is the tv station's web site. Aljazeera.com is a tiny fringey anti-semitic and in other ways kooky publication. I've read theories (but can't find 'em right now) that it is a Saudi front to discredit or embarrass Al Jazeera proper.

[hilzoy]

Tom Scudder: thanks for that, not just because it clarifies the link (which I hadn't followed, having already been sufficiently convinced that Zirkle was a nutcase), but for future reference. It's good to know that about things that purport to be Al Jazeera links.

[Prup (aka Jim Benton)]

But, but, I can't tell from the pic the answer to the truly important question:

Is he wearing a FLAG PIN to the meeting? That -- not the group -- determines whether this was a truly patriotic appearance -- doesn't it?

Sean, one good book on the subject -- though maybe not from the perspective you want -- is Weber and Rogge's THE EUROPEAN RIGHT. It deals not just with Hitler and Mussolini but with the now-forgotten fascist movements in other countries between the wars, like Rumania's Iron Cross and Finland's Academic Karelia movement. It is probably out of print, but try some place like alibris.

[SWV]

Did Adolf cause accidents? Like shower, car and plane? Like Obama he had charisma and it's known that can cause those. He also is a community organizer for 'workers parties.' Obama has risen just as fast and the US has a huge military. It can't be the oil, so maybe he'll free everybody and have global 'workers parties' take over so we can understand him and realize we are wrong and he is always right even if you think he's wrong because he had this life..............

[Jim Parish]

Sean, I'd also recommend Robert Paxton's The Anatomy of Fascism; I read it a few months back and found it fascinating.

[Brick Oven Bill]

Re: Hateful Ideologies and Academic Conditioning

The ideologies of the Nazis and black liberation are based on inferiority and are similar. Islam is based on superiority and is different.

The Nazis and black liberation are populist movements drawing strength from targeting ‘the other’. The other in Germany-1938 were the Jews. The other in black America-2008 is ‘the white enemy’. The Ashkenazis bettered the Aryans by around 14 IQ points; and a similar spread exists between black and white America.

Even the leadership of the two groups is a parallel. Hitler was of Jewish descent and hated his nose. Reverend Wright appears to be three-quarters European and is either bothered by that, or judging by his new choice of neighbors, is nothing more than a race-hustler in the mold of the Cherokee leadership.

But in the end, bad things come to people who harbor hateful ideologies. Truth is very powerful and motivates intelligent men.

Modern academic conditioning has parallels with the Catholic Church-1500s. It correctly labels the Nazis as ‘bad guys’, while it cannot bring itself to be critical of foreign hateful ideologies. Academic leadership has too much emotionally invested in their own mindsets to be objective. They are intellectually weak.

Enlightenment practitioners were called ‘schoolmen’ or ‘scholastics’. The Catholic Church was able to shut Galileo up, but in the end truth won.

[Donald Johnson]

Thanks for the book suggestions from the two Jims--I'd heard of Paxton, but haven't read him yet and hadn't heard of Weber and Rogge.

[russell]

Even the leadership of the two groups is a parallel.

Hard to know what to say.

If you were trolling, this might be kind of funny, in an annoying DaveC kind of way. But I think you believe everything you say.

You got some kind of weird, semi-paranoid mental shields of steel built there, dude. I got nothing sufficiently industrial strength to make any kind of useful dent in it. You seem to be a thoughtful guy, but IMO it's not leading you anyplace healthy.

If you are ever interested in talking about the actual life that actual human beings live in the real world, I bet I'd enjoy talking to you. In the meantime, Bill's world of scary quotes is just a little too spooky for my taste.

Nothing personal, I got no ill will toward you, I just think you're living in a dark place. Mentally, anyway. Way darker than necessary.

My two cents.

If what I'm talking about here is unclear, check this out:

Adolf Hitler -- wanted to kill every Jew, gypsy, and gay in the Continent of Europe. Wanted to conquer and enslave anyone else left standing who wasn't an ethnic Aryan.

Rev. Wright -- no visible interest in killing anyone. Wants black people to be treated the same as white people.

Do you notice a difference? Hope so.

Thanks -

[zoe from pittsburgh]

My favorite part of Zirkle's website is where he provides "proof" that Jews are behind pornography-- a list of links that includes sources like "jewwatch" and David Duke and various other anti-semitic and white supremacy groups.

The guy is either an idiot or a white supremacist or, more obviously, BOTH.

I don't care if he might have been misled in the invite or claims he doesn't know anything about the group-- when he walked into the room he should have turned around and walked out. Who in their right mind would stand up in front of a picture of Hitler and give a speech?

The fact that anyone would give this guy any benefit of the doubt is just absurd. Comparing the Nazis and Black Panthers is EQUALLY absurd, it's something I'd expect to hear from Ann Coulter. Talk about your out-of-touch, embarassinigly ignorant people.

I also can't help but wonder if some random dem running for congressional office was photographed giving a talk standing in front of a Marx poster that it would be all over the MSM.

[redwood]

hilzoy, you say you wonder how people get like that. with due respect, and with statement only, I don't you're being honest with us.

their ideology is symptomatic of a pathological ignorance about other people which we're all vulnerable to throughout our lives.

people receive ideas and practices. some work some don't.

if one is not taught (or otherwise somehow perceive) the virtues of other people's ideas and practice, and instead see the other people's practices as threats to your inherited ideas and practice, one reacts in defense.

it's basic stuff. so cool it. too many american feminist do it everyday with men from islamic cultures.

indeed, the real untold story of this wicked war on terror is that a necessary condition for its existence is mean spirited feminist hatred toward islamic men, a fact not lost on Karl Rove.

[Barbara]

This is Monty Python territory. I thought that it must be a joke until I went to the link.

I guess it goes without saying that he has a seriously unhealthy obsession with race. If you read the article, elsewhere he defends himself by saying that he has talked to lots of people about this topic (prostitution of white women) -- he even spoke with two black journalists.

Why would anyone care about the race of the women or the journalists?

[bobbyp]

BO Bill,

Fritz Gerlich conclusively proved Hilter's nose was not aryan, but he was writing satire. What are you writing?

[russell]

the real untold story of this wicked war on terror is that a necessary condition for its existence is mean spirited feminist hatred toward islamic men

OK I give up.

Beam me up, Scotty.

Thanks -

[Brick Oven Bill]

“Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him.”

"Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy."
…

"After a thousand years and more, the last visible trace of the former master people is often seen in the lighter skin color which its blood left behind in the subjugated race, and in a petrified culture which it had originally created. For, once the actual and spiritual conqueror lost himself in the blood of the subjected people, the fuel for the torch of human progress was lost! Just as, through the blood of the former masters, the color preserved a feeble gleam in their memory, likewise the night of cultural life is gently illumined by the remaining creations of the former light-bringers. They shine through all the returned barbarism and too often inspire the thoughtless observer of the moment with the opinion that he beholds the picture of the present people before him, whereas he is only gazing into the mirror of the past."

Be truthful Russell, the only difference between the two ideologies is refinement.

[hilzoy]

redwood: I do understand things like xenophobia. What I don't really understand -- and I should probably have been clearer about this -- is this: there are lots and lots of ways of getting really, truly, completely screwed up that have their milder, less scary analogs. Full-blown, can't leave the house agoraphobia has its roots in minor fear of the unknown; OCD has its minor variants, as I find out whenever I travel (I always check roughly a hundred times to make sure I didn't forget my passport), etc.

But somewhere between the minor and horrific versions, there are lines that get crossed, lines that you'd think would tip someone off that things are going Way Too Far. I'm always puzzled by people who just breeze right past them. And surely between ordinary minor intolerance of difference and the photo in the post, there are a lot of those lines.

[russell]

Be truthful Russell, the only difference between the two ideologies is refinement.

Sorry, but no, I'm not going to engage in a discussion of whether Nazism and black liberation theology are different only in their relative levels of refinement.

Here is my suggestion to you, offered sincerely and in good faith.

Turn off your computer and go outside. Talk a walk, smell the air, listen to the birds sing.

That's my advice. Make of it what you will.

Thanks -

[Bruce Baugh]

Russell, you just know this is going to get us more posts about the raucous songs of blackbirds and how the ibis and other Persian birds practice ritual sacrifices of their young.

[Bill White]

Funny, no one ever considers what every white working person who can't afford a computer knows -- that the Jews run porn as an ethnic racket to add sexual exploitation of the white working class to their crime of economic exploitation of the white working class.

Maybe I'm the only one sick of seeing privilege libertine college kids and those feeding off the Washington political tit talking down to working people and their movement -- National Socialism -- but, somehow, I don't think so.

[Jay Jerome]

"And, Bill, before you cast aspersions against Muslims for the gritty bits in the Koran, you may want to read some portions of the Old Testament -- you know the parts about stoning adulterers, slaying all the non-believers, etc. Then you might want to flip to the New Testament and reread Matthew 7:3, concentrating on that old beam-mote analogy."

Well, two points:

In the here-and-now verses from the Old Testament and the New Testament aren't regularly being used to recruit suicide terrorists, but the Koran is, now -- as you read this.

Fundamental religious belief tends to inculcate the kind of corrupt judgment in the minds of adherents that turn them into monsters (the Inquisition anyone? Salem Witch Trials?). But that doesn't excuse modern Islam for current barbarities fostered in the name of their religion because Christianity was guilty of similar atrocities in the last 2000 years, or Judaism 3000 or 4000 years ago.

[Jay Jerome]

"indeed, the real untold story of this wicked war on terror is that a necessary condition for its existence is mean spirited feminist hatred toward islamic men, a fact not lost on Karl Rove."

So, if feminists didn't hate Islamic men, we wouldn't be at war?

Or we wouldn't be fighting terrorism? Which? Both?

Is it just feminists who hate Islamic men? What about strippers and topless dancers? You'd think they would hate them with a passion, since Islam seems to frown on bare breasts (and often bare heads and faces and toes).

And while you're at it, advise if it applies to women who work in massage parlors too...

[matttbastard]

This thread has made me realize that I may need to take a break from this place...

[xanax]

Bill White: "Funny, no one ever considers what every white working person who can't afford a computer knows -- that the Jews run porn as an ethnic racket to add sexual exploitation of the white working class to their crime of economic exploitation of the white working class."

Wow. The bar's been reset to a whole new low.

[Jay Jerome]

bill white: "Funny, no one ever considers what every white working person who can't afford a computer knows -- that the Jews run porn as an ethnic racket to add sexual exploitation of the white working class to their crime of economic exploitation of the white working class."

Billy boy, I'm a member of the white working class, and hang out with a lot of other working class people (of all hues) and I gotta tell you, almost all of the working class people I know OWN computers. What part of working-class America are you referring to? A community of lost coal miners, trapped underground the last two decades?

Yeah, no kidding, almost all working class folks (including their kids in elementary school, who are weaned on point-and-click from the first grade) own them and know how to use them. Especially the guys, who in addition to verifying sport's book point spreads, or playing on-line poker, also occasionally like to check out the x-rated (read that porno) sites available on the internet.

So, if the Jews are running porn as an 'ethnic racket' all the working class folks (yeah, even the working class women, who you must know, are as raunchy as the guys) give kudos to the Jews for providing a valuable service.

[Slartibartfast]

Be truthful Russell, the only difference between the two ideologies is refinement.

Well, there's the pesky engineering detail of one having wished (and actually taken nontrivially effective action on) all Jews, homosexuals and possibly a few other categories of People Who Aren't Like Us to become conveniently dead.

Other than that, not much difference at all!

Wake me if and when Bill wakes himself up, please.

[Frank Wilhoit]

Come on, think it through. Zirkle is a politician. Everything that every politician does is a pander. Who was he pandering to? (I don't know the answer, because I don't know enough about Indiana politics, but I DO know it wasn't the group he made a speech to.)

[magistra]

But, can I manage stupid and effete simultaneously. I don't know, can I?

Of course. If you can't load a shot-gun or milk a cow, in some places that would make you widely considered as stupid and effete. And if you don't want to live in those kind of places - why then, you're elitist, as well.

[Slartibartfast]

I thought the "Happy Birthday Adolf" banner was a nice touch, though.

I hate Illinois Nazis.

[trilobite]

Hilzoy, have you seen the movie "American History X"? It's a good answer to "what makes people get involved with the Nazis?"

Briefly, that film answers that they start out predisposed to authoritarianism, elitism, and violence/control fantasies, and are fed a diet of racism at home. They follow that to its natural conclusion. Having a sure-fire way to upset Authority Figures is also pleasant.

I note that Herr Zirkle also thinks men are driven to pedophilia by women having too much control over their own sexual satisfaction. This is not a normal person from the git-go -- and if he has children, I worry for them.

Redwood, western feminists didn't need Karl Rove to tell them that Arabic Moslem culture is extremely misogynist. And, yes, I am aware that millions of women are happy or at least too scared to argue with a culture that denies them even the right to show their own face in public and kills them for the crime of having been raped. That doesn't mean we have to agree.

Bill White, avaunt ye, troll. Take your fantasy creatures Larry Flynnovitz and Bob Guccioniski with you.

Jay, IMO you have a point, but you would make it one heck of a lot more clearly by skipping to the argument you just made instead of quoting nasty texts from the Koran every week. That might also force you to notice that the problem is the culture, not the text.

[OCSteve]

magistra: If you can't load a shot-gun or milk a cow, in some places that would make you widely considered as stupid and effete.

No – just lacking in basic skills. We can teach you and we would. The cow is much harder than the shotgun BTW…

;)

[trilobite]

Jay, got interrupted while posting that. I was responding to yours of 2:41.

Matt, this thread is SO atypical, I wouldn't worry. Hopefully, BrickOven will return to his usual level of delusion, and Bill White will tire of playing "shock the normals" and go home and drown some kittens or however Nazis usually spend their days.

[hilzoy]

trilobite: he's no troll, he's the genuine article. I've opted not to respond.

[Sean M. Brooks]

Dear Mr. Benton. A quick note.

Thank you for recommending Weber and Rogge's book THE EUROPEAN RIGHT. Altho I'm dubious as to what ties the Romanian Iron Cross has with the tradition represented by Edmund Burke, John Adams, Disraeli, Churchill, Russell Kirk, or the recently deceased William F. Buckley, Jr.

From what little I know about it, the Romanian Iron Cross seems to have been inspired by Italian fascist ideas of autarky or "national" socialism.

Sincerely, Sean

[Nate]

I know it's been commented on before, but seriously, the crooked "Happy Birthday" sparkly banner on the front of the podium moves this to the point of absurdity for me.

Very Monty Python territory.

Why is it that our political life has completely outdone satire over the past years?

[Anderson]

At the event, Hitler's birthday was observed with a cake with a photo of Hitler and the words "Seig Heil."

I wonder if the Illinois Nazis really misspelled "Sieg" on the cake?

At least they got their swastikas pointing the right way.

Inept neo-Nazis reassure, but also infuriate, me.

[russell]

the Jews run porn as an ethnic racket to add sexual exploitation of the white working class to their crime of economic exploitation of the white working class.

The hits just keep on coming.

OK, the surprisingly large size of the national socialist fan club is ruining my good mood. *I* am going to turn off my computer and go outside.

My wife and I put some shrubs in today, I'm gonna go look at them and admire our handiwork.

Plus, we have two sparrow families moving into our birdhouses, they are sure to raise a cheerful racket, and it's finally warm enough to sit outside and watch the sun go down.

Bottle of Harpoon hard cider for me, martini for the missus. We got some homemade soup on the bubble, that'll be ready in an hour or so.

See y'all later!

Thanks -

[Gary Farber]

In case anyone hasn't checked the URL Bill White gives, he's the proud commander of some rinky-dink American Nazi Party.

Also all in an uproar at LGF, of all things.

[Jay Jerome]

"Jay, IMO you have a point, but you would make it one heck of a lot more clearly by skipping to the argument you just made instead of quoting nasty texts from the Koran every week."

The Koran makes no bones about hating 'disbelievers' (me) and Jews (some of my loved ones) and isn't too complimentary about Christians (most of my childhood friends, and current fishing buddies) so why can't I point that out on a regular basis?

Islam claims to be a theology of love, but some of it's core beliefs are hateful... so why can't I reaffirm that on a regular basis?

When they expunge (or at least deemphasize) those passages I'll turn on my mute button.

[liberal japonicus]

Where is this Koran guy? I would like to give him a piece of my mind...

[cleek]

i come back from a long weekend of camping - no contact with the outside world at all - only to find that ObWi's been overrun by the black helicopter crowd.

sigh

[Anthony Damiani]

Quite aside from the overwhelming atrociousness of his pro-nazi positions, and his ignorance and deceit in trying to dismiss it-- this man suffers near criminal levels of incompetence for an American politician. To allow yourself to be photographed at a Nazi-flag festooned event while running for Congress is tantamount to admitting you never really wanted the job in the first place.

[Sean M. Brooks]

Dear Mr. Parish. I hope you are well.

Thank you for recommending Robert Paxton's book. I think I came across mnention of that book somewhere. Perhaps in college?

One book I would highly recommend to you is Jonah Goldber's LIBERAL FASCISM. A truly fascinating piece of historical analysis.

Sincerely, Sean

[Gary Farber]

"Quite aside from the overwhelming atrociousness of his pro-nazi positions, and his ignorance and deceit in trying to dismiss it-- this man suffers near criminal levels of incompetence for an American politician."

I find it a little bizarre that people keep referring to Zirkle as a "politician" and questioning his "judgment." He's a white supremacist antisemite Nazi. I mean, three seconds look at the site linked above should make that clear.

He didn't just show up for the pictured party by accident.

"One book I would highly recommend to you is Jonah Goldber's LIBERAL FASCISM. A truly fascinating piece of historical analysis."

Sean, I'm sorry to hear about your gall bladder surgery, and I'm glad that you seem to be on the road to recovery, and I wish you all the best for the quickest and most painfree recovery possible, but you might want to look into some of the reviews and criticisms of Jonah's opus, when you're up to Googling around a bit. It's not been universally acclaimed, even on the right.

[trilobite]

Jay, it's a free country and a tolerant blog, and you can go on quoting offensive bits of the Koran all year. But people will just reply, again, that the Tanakh has equally offensive bits. Not only is this exchange tedious, but you lose -- because you make mainstream Islam look as innocuous as mainstream Christianity or Judaism.

Your real point seems to be that the Arabist mainstream of Islam takes the offensive bits much more seriously and literally than most of us take our Book's troubling portions. Why not just skip to that? Then we can have productive conversations about the fact that there is a range of opinion in mainstream Islam, that not all Moslems are terrorists or even particularly hate the West, and that we need to do something about the number and armaments of those who do.

Or, you can stick to inept literary analysis, but you're not convincing anyone with it. Even those of us who think there is, in Irshad Manji's phrase, a problem with Islam today, do not think the problem is the text. Blowing off our reasoning to that effect and repeating your (nonreasoned)point as though we were too dumb to get it the first hundred and fifty times is unpersuasive.

[Gary Farber]

"Islam claims to be a theology of love, but some of it's core beliefs are hateful... so why can't I reaffirm that on a regular basis?"

So should we really be doing this for the Torah, Tanakh, and New Testament, each week, as well?

I suppose we could fit plenty of Hindu texts in, as well. And Buddhist monks aren't shy about beating each other up, so I suppose there must be some offensive Buddhist texts that can be dug up as well.

Why shouldn't everyone get in on this exercise, for other major religions, as well, Jay?

Also, as is often the case, what trilobite said.

[CMatt]

One book I would highly recommend to you is Jonah Goldber[g]'s LIBERAL FASCISM.

Winner.

[Nell]

Sean M. Brooks: Thank you for recommending Robert Paxton's book. I think I came across mnention of that book somewhere. Perhaps in college?

Depends how recently you were in college. It was published in 2004; the paperback came out in 2005. I'm a biased reviewer, because Robert O. Paxton is my cousin, but many more qualified than I agree: it's a major contribution to the field by a career-long historian of fascism.

[Nell]

Not a good idea for me to stay on the thread, having just finished Primo Levi's The Drowned and the Saved.

The sparkly banner... I want to laugh, but...

[Anarch]

At this point, I can only quote Flight of the Conchords. The scene: Jemaine has forgotten how he met Bret, and is trying desperately to cover this up.

B: We watched a movie...

J: It was something like but not necessarily Schindler's list... We watched it and we wept...?

B: It was Police Academy 4.

[russell]

In the here-and-now verses from the Old Testament and the New Testament aren't regularly being used to recruit suicide terrorists

Two words: Christian Identity.

Lots and lots of sleeper cells, and not-so-sleeper cells, right here in the USA, right now. They've infiltrated the US military and some even hold positions in the federal government (nice to meet you, Congressman Zirkle).

You are right about the suicide part, though.

And while we're at it: meet Bill White.

Woodwork squeaks and out come the freaks.

I'm gonna go take a shower now.

Thanks -

[Slartibartfast]

You call that a brown shirt, Bill? It looks more tan, to me.

[Barnabas]

I was triggered by the humorous link above to the film "Downfall" (der Untergang) which I thoroughly recommend. It depicts Hitler as a person with whom you could identify and who was not sufficently divorced from your own thinking and behaviour for comfort. Leaving the Fellini/Python aspects of this incident aside for the moment, the question that Hilzoy asks is the most interesting one. How do we become like this? How do we avoid doing so? Surely the famous Stanford experiment demonstrated how easy it is to slide into these toxic mindsets.

[Barnabas]

@Gary. The problem is not the religions of course, it is the human beings inhabiting them.

[Sean M. Brooks]

Dear Mr. Farber:

Thank you for your good wishes as regards my recent surgery. I'm tired, but better.

And, yes, I knew of how controversial Mr. Goldberg's book LIBERAL FASCISM is. I have seen reviews, both pro and con. But, one thing whihch impressed me, while reading it, wsa the enormous care of the author to present his argument in painstaking detail.

Sincerely, Sean

[Sean M. Brooks]

Dear Nell. Thanks for your note.

Then, I definitely did not read your cousin's book--because I graduated from college in 1980. It was another book I had in mind--the title of which I can't quite recall. I'll gogole "Robert Paxton" tonight.

Sincerely, Sean