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March 01, 2008

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I think these things ('slave sales') have been going on for a long time. At least as long ago as the late 60's when I was in high school. My rememberance is that there was no racial context but instead an upperclassman/lowerclassman hierarchy switch.

Where Mr Hagee runs into trouble is with "Slavery in America is returning... No mistaking that context, intended or not.

The more I see and hear from McCain, the more I realize he's basically kind of dumb. Witty, in a mean sort of way; but dumb nonetheless.

I especially love how he explained that having a "slave auction" was really just like having "black coffee." Has anybody in real life ever objected to the phrases "black coffee," "white paper," or "black eye"? Because that list sounds to me like the whining of a lout who got in trouble for his bad manners. And like most louts, he doesn't see the difference and thinks we're all just too sensitive. Odd, how every "political correctness" flap seems to involve what I would call simply the "very bad manners" of "morons."

I dunno, maybe churches, etc., HAVE been holding "slave auction" fund-raisers for decades, just not in my neck of the woods. But then, people have been glorifying the Confederacy and calling black people "niggers" for many decades too. Probably the same people.

Sorry, I seem obsessed with titles, but shouldn't that be 'lie down is canine American...'?

It's hard to tell if McCain is dumb or if he is willing to do anything to be president. If it is the latter, it is interesting because that was one of the big charges again Mitt.

I remember back in 2000, when I was painting my room with CSPAN on

Hmm, I've always wondered what's more interesting: watching CSPAN or paint dry. Can you tell us now?

Hagee is a stupid, insensitive and clueless old jerk, but in his slight defense he clearly knows racism is wrong--he's just not aware he's manifesting it. More to the point, I don't think McCain is any more responsible for Hagee's cluelessness than Obama is for who his pastor chooses to support.

What bothers me much more about Hagee and McCain is that Hagee is a founder of CUFI and his approach towards Israel is based on his beliefs about how the world is going to end. And McCain and Lieberman show up at CUFI meetings.

Link

So if McCain is to be questioned on this, and he should be, he should be asked what he thinks about CUFI and whether that organization is likely to be pleased with a McCain Administration's policy on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

CSPAN. Definitely. Not that that's saying much...

I find that C-Span 1 and 2 often run quite interesting book events, lectures, panel discussions, and the like, as well as invaluable campaign coverage where they just plunk a camera down and let it run.

To be sure, watching either the House or the Senate generally ranges from highly uninteresting to extremely uninteresting, absent the very occasional meaningful debate or speech, but that's only a minority of their broadcast time.

Granted, I'm well aware that, as in a vast number of things, my taste in this regard is in the extreme minority. I also like lots of PBS documentaries.

And also lots of trash. (But not reality shows, unless Jeopardy or Frederick Wiseman count. Lots of other kinds of trash, though. I is eclectic.)

Nobody ever held "slave auctions" in Brooklyn, within living memory of my lifetime, I'm pretty damn sure.

Not and lived to tell.

I have to say that I don't find "people used to do it around here" any more of an ameliorative than I would find it for requiring dark-skinned folk to ride on the back of the bus.

I'm sure there are many things Hagee needs to be called on the carpet for, but I'm having difficulty getting my knickers in a twist over a church "slave sale". For the past 50+ years adolescents have been auctioning themselves off at these events to raise funds for school and church programs and projects. This was not a "black slave sale". If it were, I would be among the first to rush forth and hurl stones. "Slave" is a generic term. Human history is littered with accounts of slavery; great civilizations were built on the backs of slaves. Many of us, regardless of race, have some slave ancestors.

"For the past 50+ years adolescents have been auctioning themselves off at these events to raise funds for school and church programs and projects."

Where, exactly? And do you have some cites to minority adolescents cheerfully engaging in this practice? Some black churches, perhaps? A couple of synagogues?

I'd find that very enlightening. Thanks!

Muldoon,
Your point might have some merit if you were talking about the word "slave" in a vacuum (although it would be impossible to hear, but that's another issue). But this is in the context of Hagee saying "Slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone." That's not a generic reference. It has real racial bite to it, and if you're not getting your knickers in a twist about it, maybe you ought to ask yourself why not.

Harvard communist Godless spy!!!

"It has real racial bite to it, and if you're not getting your knickers in a twist about it, maybe you ought to ask yourself why not."

To be clear, my view, at least is not that anyone who has put on one of these charitable "slave auctions" has done so with the thought in mind that "hmm, I want to do something that will offend African-Americans and others who think this is highly insensitive," nor even that anyone likely thinks "I want to be insensitive and indifferent to how this might appear to many people."

I think a lot of people, particularly in the past, but even today, are simply oblivious to why many people find it creepy and racially loaded.

And I think that obliviousness comes from a combination of a lack of empathy and from a concerted effort from powerful interests to make the white public think that we're living in a "post-racist world," which is really just a huge crock of crap. The racism has become so institutionalized that some people can actually look at that statement and wonder why anyone would be upset by it. Could it have something to do with the fact that a large section of the population is still dealing with the aftereffects of that system?

Castro went to Harvard and CIA paid him and he turned on us!!!! They all want the CIA money.

"I remember back in 2000, when I was painting my room with CSPAN on, and happened to hear the speech in which McCain described parts of the religious right as "agents of intolerance". I thought it was a great speech, not that my opinions did him any good. He should have stuck to his guns on that one."

Democrats are so cute when they mistake McCain pandering to them for integrity.

It's probably only because McCain came onto my radar in 2000, but it seems to me like he changed during that campaign. It seemed as though he tasted the real possibility that he could win in 2000, and after that, he was willing to do whatever was necessary, kiss whatever ring he had to in order to get the nomination, even embracing (literally) the man whose campaign had vilified his family and his daughter. Maybe he was always that guy--I don't know--but he really seemed to get more pathetic about his pandering after that.

? Because that list sounds to me like the whining of a lout who got in trouble for his bad manners. And like most louts, he doesn't see the difference and thinks we're all just too sensitive.

see also: my father-in-law

'Slave auctions' exist entirely in the absence of a history of slavery. I would expect USA has a lack of 'slave auctions' due to it's history as opposed to a larger number of them.

If they had not considered historic slavery it becomes more complicated whether we treat this and things like having drawings of Muhammad, being gay and proud etc etc equally in regard to the right to do them and the right to not be offended by someone doing them.

However in this case I have to admit the statement

"Slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone"

Sounds pretty damn boneheaded.

We had a slave auction fundraiser for some student group or other when I was in high school (1976 in California). I got talked into allowing myself to be sold, even. (And yes, I was bought, although I wouldn't call the bidding exactly lively, unlike some of my more attractive classmates). I can see why people would be bothered by it, and why it ought to be left by the wayside. Having been a "slave" though, I think the connection to the historical experience of real slaves is pretty thin.

Where, exactly? And do you have some cites to minority adolescents cheerfully engaging in this practice?

We had them (regularly, IIRC) in my secondary school in Hong Kong in the late 80s/early 90s. Cheerfully engaged in by adolescents of what in the US would be considered minority status, though with Hong Kong's demographics who knows?

slightly OT, but I do recommend William Rhoden's book, $40 Million Slaves, which is about black athletes. An excerpt from chapter 1 is here

Brett: since McCain was trying to win the Republican nomination at the time, I very much doubt he was pandering to me.

I can tell you from experience that 'slave auction' fundraisers in American evangelical circles aren't uncommon, and that quite often there really isn't any racist intent involved.

I think a lot of people, particularly in the past, but even today, are simply oblivious to why many people find it creepy and racially loaded.

Quite right.

However in this case I have to admit the statement "Slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone" Sounds pretty damn boneheaded.

Again, quite right.

There's a generous measure of insensitivity and general dumbness here, but probably no actual racism.

Thanks -

We had a slave auction at my high school, in Ann Arbor, MI, in the mid 1980s. I don't remember any objections to it, and it's a college town. However, it should be pointed out that I tried to pay as little attention as possible to all official school activities (often including classes) so I could easily have missed something.

Archie Bunker appeared in "menstrual" shows in blackface.

The lesson learned by idiots like Hagee from that is that Meathead was a politically correct Pinko for disapproving of minstrel shows and an elitist college boy for making fun of Archie for mispronouncing "minstrel".

I think we're on our way here to Obama being accused of wanting to engage in white slavery. Hide the womens because Mandingo is on the loose.

Eight months left.

McCain seems to be in a mode now where anything a Democrat says must be wrong and, what's more, always for the same reason: that it demonstrates a lack of seriousness on national defense. I was dumbstruck today, reading his defense of NAFTA.

"One of our greatest assets in Afghanistan are our Canadian friends. We need our Canadian friends, and we need their continued support in Afghanistan," McCain said. "So what do we do? The two Democratic candidates for president say they're going to unilaterally abrogate NAFTA.

There's plenty to be said on behalf of free trade. But if you are going to support NAFTA, have the nerve to argue for it. Attack Clinton's and Obama's position because free trade is a good idea. Not because it ... endangers the military support ... of Canada.

McCain's lack of political savvy for a career politician astonishes me at times. He doesn't seem to know how to pick his issues, either to stand well in the general or to win himself any friends within his own party. And when he finds the wrong issue, he doubles his problems by taking the wrong angle on it. Clinton and Obama, for better or worse, came out of the debate both having made some kind of committment. And they made a committment to use the threat of abrogation to get what they wanted of our neighbors. It looked gutsy to me. It certainly looked gutsier than refusing to call for renegotiation because your knees are quaking over what Canada would do with its 2500 troops in Afghanistan. Imagine for a moment the ridicule if John Kerry had said such a thing. Yes, picture that.

This really has to play within his party about as well as attacking a Democrat for being to belligerent towards a country whose name ends in "-stan". Did he really thinks he woud score points among Republicans by standing behind erstwhile ally Pakistan, where bin Laden is hanging out today? Doesn't he realize that the only people left who share his full-throated endorsement of the war are people who'd rather we march on Saudi Arabia just on principle? And we was cautioning for appeasement? Towards Pakistan???

So we don't want to upset Pakistan when we hunt for bin Laden. And we wouldn't want to tick off Canada in a trade treaty. We already know what we can and cannot do as far as Turks are concerned (can't pass nonbinding resolutions concerning indisputed events that took place a century ago).

If the global war on terror has the implications for international security that we've been reassured time and time again that it has, then our allies ought to be beholden to us. We have committed the overwhelimg majority of troops to its cause. One would think, if they are as concerned with international security as we are, that we ought to hold profound leverage over them. But, for some reason, the leaders of this great and urgent war have become beholden to those whom they are fighting it on behalf of. This kind of reckoning will not be lost on the very people McCain's hawkishness towards Iraq is most likely to attract.

First; I’ve perhaps spent more of my life watching paint dry than any other single thing (hey, John said he thought my drugs worked ok) and there’s nothing like it except watching clouds (which is another favorite thing) or watching the colors change in a sunset, except it lasts longer. Oils get lighter, acrylics darker. You have a pretty good idea where it’s going, but you can’t be sure, and it can be a little intense if you love a juxtaposition while the paint is wet. It may die or it can turn magical. Since magic is what you really want but can’t depend on (speaking as a non-Rembrandt/non-van Eyck; Titian always struggled with his refractory medium), you can watch with dread or hope, depending.

Nothing against C-Span, except their lousy web feed. No excuse, and far more tedious than the broadcast version.

Gary, back at yr 9:35, I think the answer is “I want to be insensitive...’ Hey, sometimes insensitivity is the only thing that gets you through the day. People consume inordinate amounts of alcohol for that very purpose.
Not everyone aspires to integrity. And indifference or at least its appearance is essential to cool. Tread lightly, for you tread on my dreams.

Ara (as in ara pacis?), Canadians are a bunch of malcontent troublemakers. If it weren’t for their resources, electrical power, and compliant, cooperative corporate and financial sectors, their puny population could be eliminated and their land annexed. They complain that NAFTA is all to the US’ advantage and warn their diplomats to not help with the task of torture. Just worthless layabouts, though they do produce a few actors and comedians— I know, same difference— Howard Shore used to live a half block from me in Lorne Michaels house (in Toronto) and where the hell would you be without those guys? So maybe leave it as a comedian farm.

And; Digital Amish, are you really? That is, or would be too cool.

There are admittedly a few Canadian writers and poets worth saving.

Came across this at Open Left.
Not recommended for children. Kinda stuff is pretty prevalent in some parts. Was where I grew up; ’course didn’t have all those garish colours and pictures and stuff.

It’ll give a real good picture of that mind; in consequence it may make you quite sick, so consider the consequences of rash and careless acts.

Appalled but not surprised, the spookiest scariest thing is that there are people— lots of them, who sit there counting on their fingers and counting on catastrophe, and they have all the answers they want or need right there. Jes’ like he says, they know names, dates and places.
They’re ready.
More than any mere human being can expect to be.

Seriously. It’s calculated to give you bad dreams.

I'm seriously tired of the word "racial" being substituted for "racist."

Oils get lighter, acrylics darker

Thanks, felix! I was painting my bathroom earlier this morning and getting concerned about when I touched up a spot I had painted earlier, it was a lighter color. Finished the first coat and went off to my computer to look at ObWi, feeling a little bummed and like maybe I had done something wrong painting. Then I read your comment and the scales fell from my eyes! A little later I went down to do the second coat and that color distinction had vanished. Whew!

As another data point my high school in Ottawa, Canada used to have "slave auctions" on at least a yearly basis by the student council for fund raising. I'm quite sure there was no racial (let alone racist) intention.

Hilzoy, Hagee is certainly a loathsome figure, but this case is innocuous and getting in a tizzy about it dilutes your impact when discussing important matters.

"I'm seriously tired of the word 'racial' being substituted for 'racist.'"

It's not a huge difference. It tends to only be made by people who believe that there is such a thing as immutable and definable human "races," and that these are valuable distinctions that should be preserved. "Racial" distinctions are no more real or defensible than "racist" distinctions, after all.

But the majority of people still clearly seem to be ignorant, and hold to false beliefs on the existence of human "races," and "racial" distinctions, even though it's no more than 18th-19th century pseudo-science trash. It'd going to be decades before people are fully educated out of that nonsense, even in the most educated societies.

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