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April 29, 2007

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This should definitely help the Republicans motivate voters in the Hispanic community... almost as much as the "surge" is helping in Iraq.

Utah County Republicans ended their convention on Saturday by debating Satan's influence on illegal immigrants.
I blame Xenu.
Illegal aliens are in control of the media, and working in tandem with Democrats, are trying to "destroy Christian America" and replace it with "a godless new world order -- and that is not extremism, that is fact," Larsen said.
Damn. How did we Jews lose control like this?

Hope these gentlemen never see _Prince Of Darkness_ and realize that to physicists a vat of Satan is just an excellent Ph.D. thesis.

Well, aren't a lot of illegal immigrants Catholic . . . ?

"Well, aren't a lot of illegal immigrants Catholic . . . ?"

Precisely! Don't you know that Catholicism isn't Real True Christianity at all, but a satanist-jewish conspiracy? Jack Chick said so.

Quick, extra tinfoil!
On the other hand, Rupert Murdoch is a foreigner of some influence in the media as is Mr.Moon (who is also not a white Christian). And given that the media is 100% liberally biased, those two must therefore be liberals too. And isn't Jesus speaking against the FOX in http://bible.cc/luke/13-32.htm>Luke 13:32?

Nice namecheck, rilkefan! An extremely underrated John Carpenter movie, IMO.

I wonder what kind of traction this story will get in Our Liberal Media. Think about, for example, the kind of regular mockery Dennis Kucinich is subjected to.

I think this is my favorite part:

A member of the audience moved that the convention suspend its rules to allow the "objectionable part" of Larsen's resolution to be stricken, retaining only the final paragraphs of the resolution, which condemn illegal immigration. Eventually party officials counted all delegates in attendance, only to discover that, with 299, they were about 30 short of a quorum and could take no action.
That just strikes me as hilarious and sad in the way that pretty much everything about Republicans is these days.

wow, just wow. You've made my day and its only 6:51 in the morning.

aimai

Thunk. Thunk. Thunk. (Sound of repeatedly smacking head on desk.)

The furor over illegal immigration never ceases to amaze me in a country built by immigrants. My own experience is doubtless not representative, but what I've seen of immigrants (I have no idea if they were legal or illegal and I don't care) they work damn hard and made me think that America was damn lucky to have them. The idea they hate the country or its citizens and are coming here to destroy them is a...fascinating...take on the world. It's a shame so many people have to live their life focused on their enemies, real or imagined.

Careful, Hilzoy. After all, if you highlight stories like this, you might make the Democrats look intolerant towards religious folk (who, as we know, are the only ones who can possibly be moral). Better watch out there, comrade. (/snark)

Send Jane Gooddall to investigate and record the activities of these dead-enders.

Man, this is great. Just get some prelate to bless the Pacific and Atlantic oceans and the Rio Grande, and the problem's solved! (except for Canada) It will have the added benefit of keeping out vampires as well as immigrants.

"Thunk. Thunk. Thunk. (Sound of repeatedly smacking head on desk.)"

I'm not even a Republican and haven't been one since I campaigned for Nixon in 1960 and I am making the same sound.

Not that Democrats don't have their own embarrassments, but when something like this is done by people who actually represent the Republican Party, it goes beyond self-parody.

BTW, what is "self-invasion"? I know I have been told to invade myself in ways which I am pretty sure are anatomincally impossible, but I don't think this is what was meant.

And I thought O'Reilly had the whole Satan thing copywrited so he could always talk about Madison, WI in those terms.

And I thought O'Reilly had the whole Satan thing copywrited so he could always talk about Madison, WI in those terms.

Hey now. There's a proper way to talk about Madison: Sodom On The Lake. We have t-shirts and everything.

Hey now. There's a proper way to talk about Madison: Sodom On The Lake. We have t-shirts and everything.

Let's not tell anyone that the most unamerican thing that usually happens here is that there is actually traffic on the bike paths, sometimes to the point of congestion.

Some of my fondest memories are of walking along Monona with my little voodoo doll and vials of blood and black hooded cape, looking for the sacrificial virgin. Never could find any of the latter in Madison.

Wow, we will all be dead, AND we will have abortion. I don't know which is worse.

Re: Cryptic Ned

Zombie abortions!!!

Of course the "we" part is only the GOP in the short term. The rest will die out because all will be forced to be gay/lesbian and any pregnancy that occurs nonetheless will be aborted. The rite of initiation will probaly be a heterosexual act in order to produce an abortable embryo/fetus/whatever. That would be standard Satanist practice. On a regular basis children born to underground Christians will be ritually sacrificed by the unholy trinity of Pelosi, Bill&Hillary Clinton on the Capitol stairs. Brown people will worship in the Bin Laden (former Lincoln) memorial and every 9/11 the reflective pool will be filled with the blood of STD victims.
[/sick fantasy]

Zombie abortions!!!

Harlan Ellison's "Croatoan" is actually a little like that, and I keep expecting the Left Behind crowd to produce a Horror Movie For Jesus on the subject -- I sure hope Ellison owns the rights, b/c he would [checks Wiki re: Ellison's vital status & consequent verb tense] never let the fundies get hold of it.

Thanks for the tip, Anderson--I'll have to check that out.

Man, aren't one-party states great? I mean for the amusement value, of course--you sure as hell wouldn't want to live there.

Thanks for the tip, Anderson--I'll have to check that out.

I only dimly remember the Ellison story, & was half expecting Gary Farber to have set me straight by now ...

If you're thinking of the story of aborted fetuses riding crocodiles in the NYC sewers, you're thinking "Croatoan."

Larsen: “In order for Satan to establish his ‘New World Order’ and destroy the freedom of all people as predicted in the Scriptures, he must first destroy the U.S.”

Dude, if it was predicted in the Scriptures, why fight it?

von, you and your party have a lot to answer for...

Well, we know from Peter Jackson's _Dead/Alive_ that a zombie pregnancy only takes about a day, so I doubt that zombie abortions are too much of a worry.

"The furor over illegal immigration never ceases to amaze me in a country built by immigrants."

You shouldn't be; Anybody who's legally immigrated, or knows somebody who came in legally, is likely to be somewhat more than a little pissed off at line jumpers.

The problem here is that if you've got a policy that strictly limits how many people can enter the country legally, but let's people enter illegally at will, then you've essentially got a policy in favor of immigrants who are willing to break your laws. Which is, no matter what you think the ideal level of immigration would be, a stupid sort of policy to have.

Plus I doubt we'd have as many illegal immigrants if we didn't have such a messed up immigration agency. I saw the mess that my boyfriend (who was a post-doc at the Institute of Advanced Studies at Princeton) had to go through.

Remember all those stories about the local DMV? Take that, quadruple it a few times, raise it to its own power, use that as an order of magnitude, make it into a transcendental number, and you STILL wouldn't have one tenth of one percent of the bloody mess we force legal immigrants to go through.

You shouldn't be; Anybody who's legally immigrated, or knows somebody who came in legally, is likely to be somewhat more than a little pissed off at line jumpers.

Meh. Not so sure about that. I have a number of family who came here legally and illegally; given the draconian numbers for Chinese immigrants up until the mid 60s, I know that my relatives directed more of their ire to the government.

Take that, quadruple it a few times, raise it to its own power, use that as an order of magnitude, make it into a transcendental number, and you STILL wouldn't have one tenth of one percent of the bloody mess we force legal immigrants to go through.

Until June last year, I had two friends, one in the UK, one in the US. They'd met online, talked via webcam, visited each other, wanted very much to live together. The British friend had the more transferrable set of employment skills, and set about getting himself a green card to move to the US. It took him nearly two years of increasingly-frenzied effort to get a visa which gave him the right to work in the US: she had cancer, and he wanted at least to be with her.

My friend in the US died of cancer five days before the visa reached my friend in the UK: by some trick of government bad news, it got to him the day of her funeral.

As ludicrous and awful as the man is, I'm not sure that taking one wingnut in one county of Utah (it's Utah County, not the state of Utah) is really fair to the rest of the Republican Party. It's not like they don't do enough shit worthy of mockery on their own. I mean, our (Missouri's) governor take 400,000 people off Medicare and doesn't really give a shit that poor people die because of that. Seems more important to me than whether or not this guy needs to be committed.

Joe, I understand your sentiment, but although it was only one nut case presenting the case, those that opposed it were loudly booed. And remember there were over 200 people there.

Are these people representative of the Republican Party? I don't know anymore. Once upon a time I would have said no, they weren't. But now I am starting to think differently.

And Brett, your comment "The problem here is that if you've got a policy that strictly limits how many people can enter the country legally, but let's people enter illegally at will, then you've essentially got a policy in favor of immigrants who are willing to break your laws." isn't entirely accurate. It implies that there are no attempts to catch illegal immigrants, which is incorrect.

What the current policy is that if they can get across and find a job we will pretty much stay away from them. And this is primarily a sop to businesses who use illegal immigrants as cheap labor. Until you stop businesses from hiring illegals, the problem will continue.

What penalties do you want to see applied to businesses, large or small, that hire illegal aliens?

If you're thinking of the story of aborted fetuses riding crocodiles in the NYC sewers, you're thinking "Croatoan."

Yeah! That! Zombie alligator-riding fetuses!

Are these people representative of the Republican Party? I don't know anymore. Once upon a time I would have said no, they weren't. But now I am starting to think differently.

I understand that it is just a county level convention. But speakers there included the state party chair, the Lt. Governor, the Utah AG, and Congressman Chris Cannon. The Lt. Governor said they were “guided by correct principles" and the "best of the best" of the Republican Party.

The resolution was not defeated – it got late and enough delegates had left already that they no longer had the quorum to have a vote. I suppose I should be thankful for that…

Satan may be at work here, but I don’t think it has anything to do with illegal immigrants.

Thunk.

Uncontrolled immigration, yet another infringement on our rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Impeach them all.
Last link (unless Google Books caves to the gov't and drops the title):
America Deceived (book)

I'm not sure that taking one wingnut in one county of Utah...

Agreed, it is a pretty small sample, and may be more indicative of the stereotypes we hold, rather than the positions they hold. Unfortunately if my own personal sampling (sw Ohio) is even close to correct, there's got to be millions of Americans with similar "circle the wagons" defensive traits.

Utah County would be more obviously an outlier if it weren't for things like the Texas state party platform.

I'm so glad I'm out of the country.

"It implies that there are no attempts to catch illegal immigrants, which is incorrect."

Carefully calibrated attempts: Enough to keep the illegals on edge, afraid to contact the authorities if subject to illegal working conditions, and create the illusion of serious enforcement efforts for a public that wants enforcement. But not enough to actually cut into the supply of cheap illegal immigrant labor.

Since me agreeing with Brett is likely a Sign Of The Apocalypse, I'm going to disagree purely by the force of my love for the world (:

Whoops. That was me, still in Philosophical Persona.

As it happens, I also agree with Brett on this one - which isn't all that much of a surprise, as we favor honesty and the absence of fear as general conditions of good living.

i'd still like to see Brett answer john miller's question from 3:14.

after all, why complain about the supply if you're unwilling to acknowledge the demand ?

Cleek, think War on Drugs and all will be clear...

Illegal immigration is a real-world exercise in survival of the fittest, which conservatives otherwise love.

You got to cross the Sonoran desert, or deal with snakeheads, work your ass off in a dangerous, shit job, dodge the cops, and La Migra -- it's not a gig for wimps.

Hell, they worked harder than my legal ancestors.

"What penalties do you want to see applied to businesses, large or small, that hire illegal aliens?"

I was thinking in terms of a bounty paid to the first illegal employeed by a company to report them, paid out of that company's funds.

And paid in the nation of origin, of course. They'd have to leave the country to collect.

Seems the most efficient way to make employing illegals too risky for businesses to bother.

Cleek, think War on Drugs and all will be clear

so... a multi-generational failure that eventually turns into a punch-line ?

awesome!

I was thinking in terms of a bounty paid to the first illegal employeed by a company to report them, paid out of that company's funds.

just the first?

how about:

1) loss of license (where applicable)
2) loss of assets (roughly enough to make up what employing a US citizen for the same job would cost, plus a penalty)
3) permanent loss of access to govt farm subsidies

Illegal aliens are in control of the media

I'll tell the guys who work for my neighbors' lawn service. Also the guy who cleans the office I work in, also the folks who work down at the car wash, also the dishwasher and bus girl at my and my wife's favorite restaurant, also the clean-up guy on my roofer's work crew.

They'll all be mighty pleased to know.

At the end of his speech, Larsen began to cry

You know, I had exactly the same reaction.

On a more serious note...

I was thinking in terms of a bounty paid to the first illegal employeed by a company to report them, paid out of that company's funds

I think you'd need to throw in a witness protection plan to make that work.

Seems the most efficient way to make employing illegals too risky for businesses to bother.

Fines won't do it unless you make the fine big enough to make the company bankrupt. Otherwise it's just part of the cost of doing business.

If you send people responsible for the hiring decision to jail for a couple of years, that might work. Seems kind of draconian, though.

On the other hand, we could just make it easier for people to come here legally and let them in.

Thanks -

Please, cleek. Your suggestions (1,2 & 3 above) would imply you think these people are serious about actually solving their so-called illegal alien so-called "crisis."

Where's your common sense?

Undocumented workers are good for business and great, politically, for the wingnuts. Why in God's name would they ever want to actually do anything to "solve" it?

On the "is this representative," to get a little more cynical/depressing: I suspect that most power players in the Republican party think guys like this are crazy, but are very very willing to exploit their irrational fears if it lets them pursue their own goals (criminalizing working without a visa, say, which makes it far easier to exploit workers).

I have to say that, like others, I find agreeing even somewhat with Brett is more than a little unusual but this is, I think, right on:

Enough [enforcement/arrests] to keep the illegals on edge, afraid to contact the authorities if subject to illegal working conditions, and create the illusion of serious enforcement efforts for a public that wants enforcement. But not enough to actually cut into the supply of cheap illegal immigrant labor.

Except, of course, that I don't refer to people as "illegal," since it's impossible for a person to be illegal, only an action can be illegal. We don't call imprisoned felons "illegal," we call their crimes illegal.

Shorter Brett: Ratchet up the exploitation/fear factors.

And Joe "I think this is right on" Thomas?

Perverse.

YMMV.

cleek,
punchline, yes, but it also underscores how clueless Americans tend to be with questions of demand, regardless of whether it is good (pop culture overseas) or bad (drugs and illegal immigrant labor, or, dare I say, medical care) Perhaps other countries are as bad, but we Americans seem to have a special lacuna when considering what people want.

Brett: I was thinking in terms of a bounty paid to the first illegal employeed by a company to report them, paid out of that company's funds.

And paid in the nation of origin, of course. They'd have to leave the country to collect.

Sounds like a great way to maintain the status quo.

A bounty paid in US dollars to anyone in the country illegally who reports on their employer, plus - with the bounty - a green card. In short, if you're being employed illegally, reporting your employer is the fast way to change your status to legal and get setup money.

Of course, as you pointed out yourself upthread, the status quo is so beneficial to employers, why would anyone want to change it?

(FWIW, I think the same should apply in my country - we treat illegal immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers shamefully from beginning to end.)

The point is to encourage illegal aliens to inform on their employers, and do so promptly. Not to figure that they'll just collect their paycheck until somebody else informs, and then get the informers bonus automatically. That's why only the first informer gets the bonus.

And they don't get a green card, because that would encourage them to immigrate illegally specifically TO inform and become legal immigrants.

No, I think this is the best enforcement mechanism, because it drives a wedge between the employer and the illegal immigrant, making the latter a substantial danger to the former.

"Fines won't do it unless you make the fine big enough to make the company bankrupt. Otherwise it's just part of the cost of doing business."

Nah, it's not like there are no alternatives at all to the labor of illegal aliens. They're just cheaper and more convenient than the alternatives. (Which are automation, and paying people here legally more.) All you have to do to stop employment of illegal aliens is to make it more costly than the alternatives.

Brett: And they don't get a green card, because that would encourage them to immigrate illegally specifically TO inform and become legal immigrants.

If the price of informing on your employer is immediate deportation, of course no illegal immigrant will inform. Why would they?

No, I think this is the best enforcement mechanism, because it drives a wedge between the employer and the illegal immigrant, making the latter a substantial danger to the former.

Not at all. No employer is seriously at risk from an illegal immigrant informing under your scheme.

And they don't get a green card, because that would encourage them to immigrate illegally specifically TO inform and become legal immigrants.

If they could get a job. If the onus is on the employer to ensure that all employees are legal immigrants, and all employers know that if they employ an illegal immigrant they risk swingeing fines and a jail sentence, while the illegal immigrant gains much and risks nothing by informing on their employer, that would cut down on employing people who couldn't prove citizenship.

All you have to do to stop employment of illegal aliens is to make it more costly than the alternatives.

But so long as people are unwilling to do so, as you evidently are, it will continue.

Oh, and fairly obviously - and everything I've said applies to my country, too - in order to cut down on illegal immigrants, it has to be made more possible for people to get in and work legally.

All you have to do to stop employment of illegal aliens is to make it more costly than the alternatives.

That's a good point, but I think the reality is somewhere between my earlier statement and yours here.

In order for a fine that merely raised the cost enough to equal doing things legally to be effective, it would have to be highly likely that the fine would be levied. Not 100%, but high enough that it wasn't worth the risk.

Short of that, the fine would have to exceed, substantially, any benefit the employer could realize from hiring undocumented workers. If it didn't, there would always be folks who would take the gamble.

There are already fines and other criminal sanctions available for folks who hire undocumented workers. They aren't getting the job done.

We can either make the punishment more draconian and see if that works, or we can address, perhaps even embrace, the fact that millions of people are willing endure extreme hardship to come here to work and live. By "embrace" I mean let them do so legally.

Thanks -

"In order for a fine that merely raised the cost enough to equal doing things legally to be effective, it would have to be highly likely that the fine would be levied."

Granted, and the lower the probability that the fine will be levied, the higher the fine has to be. The problem today, as I point out above, is that effective enforcement of immigration laws (Against Mexicans, anyway! Other nationalities don't get the same break.) is contrary to long established, if nominally denied, government policy. No enforcement technique can work when the people implementing it don't intend it to work.

Ideally, I'd like to see legal immigration greatly increased, and not just for people coming from Mexico. The problem with massive immigration from Mexico is that, when you assimilate immigrants, you are also assimilated to some extent. And, let's not kid ourselves, Mexico has a severely disfunctional culture, which we are importing along with their food. The fact that we give preference to Mexicans willing to break our laws only makes this worse.

Encouraging immigration from a wide variety of cultures would make assimilation easier, IMO. To give an example, when the UK gave Hong Kong residents the shaft, stripping them of their right to travel through the UK so that they'd be trapped when China took over, I thought we should have opened our borders to them. Would have given us a great cultural shot in the arm.

I see that Natives United To Block Alien Growth has a chapter in Utah county!

Brett: To give an example, when the UK gave Hong Kong residents the shaft, stripping them of their right to travel through the UK so that they'd be trapped when China took over, I thought we should have opened our borders to them.

In the your-country my-country argument - I thought the Conservatives were mad not to say that any Hong Kong legal resident who wanted a British passport could have one. (Not to mention, unethical.) What they would have got with that simple act would have been hundreds of thousands of natural Tory voters...

let's not kid ourselves, Mexico has a severely disfunctional culture

I guess I don't agree with this.

Mexico's a poor country. It suffers from a variety of social problems common to poor countries.

That's not the same as having a culture that is so fundamentally "dysfunctional" that letting Mexican people emigrate here legally would damage the US.

I'm not sure there is such a culture. I'm pretty sure Mexico is not an example of one.

Thanks -

It's worth noting that the vast majority of Mexicans do not emigrate, and that while it is a country with a lot of poor people, Mexico also has areas that are doing pretty well, with real middle classes and everything. There's so much emigration, legal and illegal, because the US is both richer and close, but it's very easy to exaggerate many Mexican problems. (It's also easy to understate them and for those of us in the US to dodge how much of Mexico's poverty is the direct result of policies popular in the US, but tht's another story.)

I wrote, in response to Brett: But so long as people are unwilling to do so, as you evidently are, it will continue.

I apologize for "as you evidently are" - it was a cheap shot and inaccurate.

More religious news. A Mormon courting the Sc**nt*l*g*st vote? Who the hell is advising Romney?

Who the hell is advising Romney?

Could it be ... Satan???

"On the other hand, Rupert Murdoch is a foreigner of some influence in the media"

Actually, he became an American citizen in 1985, so as to be able to legally own tv stations here.

Cleek, I salute you for clever use of the topic title!

When I saw Gary had commented on this thread I expected it to be a disquisition on Battlefield Earth.

This discussion seems to be quite extensive for a hockey player.

"When I saw Gary had commented on this thread I expected it to be a disquisition on Battlefield Earth."

I don't quite follow that, but it is Mitt Romney's favorite novel.

There hadn't been much activity in the thread for a while, so I thought when I saw the recent comments list that your comment might have been sparked by mine at 9:25, especially since it was SF-related.

Gary, I didn't check Murdoch's current citizenship but formally he is an immigrant (i.e. not a native citizen) and he had influence in the media even before becoming a US citizen. Moon is not a US citizen afaik (I think even his being in the US legally is in dispute) and I hope his criminal career prevents him from becoming one. Moon's declared goal is also clearly "undermining Christianity" in the US.
My sarcastic remarks above were aimed at the fact that those immigrants that actually fit the description (at least partially) are clearly on the exreme right end of the spectrum and definitely not in cahoots with those satanic liberals.
My personal opinion: Mr.Murdoch has no loyalty to any nation state but only to himself. In Germany his newspapers agitate(d) against Britain, in Britain against Germany and France etc. He is obviously right that those who read his stuff aren't likely to find that out.

"...when I saw the recent comments list that your comment might have been sparked by mine at 9:25, especially since it was SF-related."

Ah; I'm afraid I missed that comment; apologies for inadvertently posting the same link.

I noticed the "Croatoan" exchanges, but didn't have any comment, although I could express faint confusion at who else Anderson thought it likely would hold the rights to Harlan's stories (Harlan has been incorporated as "The Kilimanjaro Corporation," for purposes of copyright and rights, for several decades, actually; that's not an unusual move for a successful writer).

Regard Harlan's being quite alive (just as well you missed the typical storm that raged through the sf community after the past Worldcon, and Harlan's appearance), my last post mentioning him is still on my front page.

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