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March 15, 2007

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This was my understanding of Black Irish, as found in the comments of the Worstall post:

Black Irish is typically referred to Irish people with dark features. Many people in my Irish family do have dark features and family lore attributed it to Spanish sailors who washed up on the shore of Galway and Mayo after the wreck of the Spanish Armada.

This one appeals to me, being both of Irish and Spanish descent (not to mention a few other nationalities, so it all amounts to about nothing at this point).

I had a roommate in college whose parents were off-the-boat Irish and who had visited his family in Ireland a number of times. He had just a touch of an Irish brogue mixed in with his Bayonne accent. He claimed to never have heard the expression "Black Irish" and, further, that his father said he also knew nothing of the term when asked.

Who's got who in the Madness? I've got Ohio St. v. UCLA, UCLA champs.

Oh, and Tiger Woods is good.

I've got Ohio State and UCLA too, except I have OSU winning.

Yes Tiger is.

And the myth about the "black Irish" being descendants of survivors of the Spanish Armada has ben pretty well debunked.

I have a strong Protestant Irish background and have never been called Black Irish.

And the phrase is pretty much limited to the US with little usage in Ireland.

I did say it was in my family argot....
I'm told that we've corrupted "Black Protestant" meaning Presbyterian into Black Irish.

in the same way that partisans on the left might check the Democratic Underground

if it wasn't for righties complaining about D.U., i wouldn't know it even existed. i've been there once, and that was just to see what the fuss was all about.

LGF is much higher-profile than DU, it was voted Best Conservative Blog (DU wasn't even in the running); and Johnson himself shows up on TV and radio, speaking for conservatives.

All the Same

Tangential to topic from LGM.

"In all, about three-quarters of the ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, when rising sea levels finally divided Britain and Ireland from the Continent and from one another, Dr. Oppenheimer calculates in a new book, “The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story” (Carroll & Graf, 2006).

As for subsequent invaders, Ireland received the fewest; the invaders’ DNA makes up about 12 percent of the Irish gene pool, Dr. Oppenheimer estimates, but it accounts for 20 percent of the gene pool in Wales, 30 percent in Scotland, and about one-third in eastern and southern England."

The Lady & I spent much discussing the sexual habits of the ruling class after this article.

I myself have the red hair, pale skin, alcoholism, poetry, and violence of my native land. Just kidding about the last three.

"Orangists?" I did some research when the web got big enough. I traced my personal roots back to Roscommon around 1810...Finger Lakes area? But IIRC correctly, the family name goes back to Normans.

Isn't this the same Glenn who complained only days ago about how it wasn't a valid technique to trawl for nasty comments?

And the myth about the "black Irish" being descendants of survivors of the Spanish Armada has ben pretty well debunked.

I've also heard about various incursions by various Mediterraneans (ie Portugese, Spanish, Italian and Greeks) over a number of years have contributed to the gene pool in the southwest. A variation on the theme that may be total crap as well.

Isn't this the same Glenn who complained only days ago about how it wasn't a valid technique to trawl for nasty comments?

I didn't see that post of his, but I imagine Glenn isn't pointing to the the comments for their nastiness, but for the seeming contradiction between a comments section whose general position on al Qaeda and muslims in general is "kill 'em all" switching on a dime to supporting al Qaeda plots (i.e., if they were just advocating killing Carter, it would be invalid trawling for nasty comments). But who knows, he has more credibility with me when he focuses on the law.

that is to say, I find Glenn Greenwald more compelling when he writes on the law.

Isn't this the same Glenn who complained only days ago about how it wasn't a valid technique to trawl for nasty comments?

Yes it is, and the point of his post, which he points out repeatedly, is not that these comments are representative of conservative ideology. In fact, his point is also clearly not as von blithely points out, that Charles Johnson presides over a cesspool. Noone, least of all Glenn will be surprised to find that this is true. His point is that the sort of comments that causes many in the media and in the right blogosphere to swoon and faint at the horrible excesses of those crazy immoral hippies, will be essentially ignored by those same entities when similar behavior occurs on the right. He points to this case in particular because it provides an almost perfect example of this double standard.

Tell me where he's wrong.

Sebastian, Greenwald talks about that in the post. One of his points is that the LGF commenters calling for Carter's death won't get the media coverage that the HuffPo commenters lamenting Cheney's survival did. Howard Kurtz isn't going to devote a column, or even a sentence, to them.

I take my 4:06 back (though I think it an interesting point), brant and KCinDC are right.

make that brent

Isn't this the same Glenn who complained only days ago about how it wasn't a valid technique to trawl for nasty comments?

Greenwald highlights the differences in the last 3-4 paragraphs of his article.

I'd mostly agree with Brent the article focuses on the manufactured outrage produced by many rightwing blogs and how the media reacts to it. I'd disagree LGF/Johnson isn't conservative.

as KC and brent said, Greenwald is 100% correct: nobody expects the media to even mention that the LGF clowns are merrily chuckling over this.

if jingoist right-wingers call their political enemies "traitors" and joke about having them killed, that's old news. it's expected. it's what jingoists do.

Since this is an open thread, could I request a refresher on how one posts links in comments? (I know it's been mentioned before, but I didn't note it down at the time.) There are a couple of posts on LanguageLog about Oppenheimer's book that I'd like to point to, but I'd rather not post the raw URLs (which are rather long).

Jim - try here

to post a link: <a href="http://www.thelink.com">some text</>

Thanks, Ugh. So it's the standard HTML coding; I didn't realize that.

Just as a heads-up on Oppenheimer: LanguageLog has posts up objecting to his book on linguistic grounds and on genetic grounds.

ah crap! forgot my closing 'a'

to post a link, without breaking the page:
<a href="http://www.foo.com">some text</a>

I am enjoying The Black Donnellys. I’ll leave it there.

As to LGF vs. GG – I’ll leave it alone. No one here will agree with me anyway and I don’t feel like arguing about it tonight. Pass.

St. Patrick’s Day on a Saturday. That is an occasion I fear I will have to take advantage of. Look out Sunday.

As to LGF vs. GG – I’ll leave it alone. No one here will agree with me anyway and I don’t feel like arguing about it tonight. Pass.

There's always TiO.

And I wouldn’t have to argue about it there? Hmm – I could blame it on site problems…

At least at TiO you get the crazy crablike critters.

And you don't those of us who don't want to register there (or anywhere else).

"His point is that the sort of comments that causes many in the media and in the right blogosphere to swoon and faint at the horrible excesses of those crazy immoral hippies, will be essentially ignored by those same entities when similar behavior occurs on the right."

Not to put to fine a point on it, but didn't he just get this article published in Salon?

Not a single LGF commenter in that discussion condemned this support for Al Qaeda's assassination plot, nor has a single right-wing blogger (that I'm aware of) said a single word about any of it. It's irrelevant whether one agrees with the standards used to pump up the HuffPost/Cheney comments story into a major national press "scandal" (as I said at the time, I don't agree with those standards). But those are the standards that have been embraced, and they ought to be applied consistently.

As indicated, there are multiple reasons why these LGF comments are far more significant than the HuffPost comments. Yet why is it that it seems like a very bad idea to hold one's breath waiting for all the media outrage stories over how one of the largest right-wing blog communities is expressing support for Al Qaeda assassination plots against a former American President?

Well he does rhetoric well. "I don't want to mention my opponents penchant for always lying about everything but oops did I say that?"

He is a member of the media.

He is right NOW trying to hype a story by trawling through comments.

If he is successful at pushing this story, is he a part of the problem?

"If he is successful at pushing this story, is he a part of the problem? "

No. If the people who pushed the earlier story about the bloodthirsty crazed liberals are now shamed into doing a story on bloodthirsty crazed conservatives, the problem is solved.

This won't post at MaxSpeak, so I'm posting it here to put it out somewhere. Max counsels turning antiwar energy on swingable but as-yet-unconvinced members of Congress, rather than on our allies. ("Preaching to the choir won't work; the choir isn't big enough.")

Choir enlargement campaign opportunities: major media markets in Maine, Ohio, Indiana, Virginia, western Iowa/eastern Nebraska in order to peel off these Senators:

Snowe, Collins, Voinovich, Lugar, Warner, Grassley, Hagel.

Bonus if those happen to reach any of the House districts that are swingable.

Reid's S.J.RES.9, binding resolution to start withdrawing in 120 days, goal of out by March 2008, failed a few hours ago 48-50. Roll call.

I should note that the heretofore reliable FCNL guy and Webb's staffer both told me yesterday 'Plenty of time; vote won't happen until next week.' At least this vote got us a target list. I have no idea which way Tim Johnson (D-SD) would have voted; he will probably be available for the next major Iraq vote.

"Since this is an open thread, could I request a refresher on how one posts links in comments?"

You may. Guide here: <A HREF="URL">words here</A>

He is right NOW trying to hype a story by trawling through comments.

Again, the story he is trying to hype is not about the about the right wing blogs themselves. It is about the larger media's shifting standards of conduct towards the left and right wings of the blogosphere. This is an argument that can be reasonably made by pointing to those comments in particular because the reaction to them by the Howard Kurtzes of the world, that is the arbiters of our national debate, is to give them the attention they deserve, which is basically none.

"If he is successful at pushing this story, is he a part of the problem? "

If he is successful in the way that he wants to be, which he states quite clearly, than the problem will not exist in the first place. What Glenn wants is not to have Howard Kurtz trawling the commentary of right wing boards. As he says in this post and the one about the phony Cheney flap, he doesn't believe that this is a reasonable standard for analysis. What he wants is to have people like Kurtz stop responding to the absurdly fake outrage on this sort of stuff that is created by people like Malkin. He would rather there be no hype at all over any of this sort of commentary but if there is going to be hype, there should be at least some attempt at consistency.

He is a member of the media.

I do not think its reasonable, even at this triumphant stage of blog ascendancy, to suggest that Greenwald's daily diary in Salon provides some sort of real counterbalance in the public debate to the Washington Post or television news coverage.

brent, thank you for writing the response to Sebastian that I was struggling to create.

I concur with your points completely.

Also, it should be noted that Glenn predicted the Cheney/comment outrage stories before they even came out.

Feels as if I should begin this with 'OT', even though this is technically an open thread:

Earlier reports that the Iranian general Asgari had defected along with his family appear to be inoperative. (via Laura Rozen)

His family held a press conference today in Iran to say they'd lost cell contact with him while he was in Turkey on December 9, a month earlier than anyone has acknowledged. They believe he was kidnaped.

His wife says also that he's 46, not 63, as previously reported, so he's pretty unlikely to have played any kind of leading role in the 1983 Marine barracks explosion in Lebanon, also as previously 'reported'.

U.S. State Department professes complete ignorance. If it turns out indeed that Asgari has been kidnaped, I believe it will turn out to have been an extremely unwise move. If it was a kidnaping, I hope our government was not the responsible party.

Also, appalled as I am at the lengths to which our current regime is willing to try to bend the entire government, including the judicial system, to its partisan purposes, and lie about it, we thankfully are not at the point where someone like Dana Priest or Josh Marshall is found to have fallen from a fifth-floor window.

I've been invited to a St. Pat's Day party at the law firm of McKay and Chadwell in Seattle tomorrow. The McKay in Q is John McKay's older brother,Mike, and former US Atty under Bush 1. I've skipped the last couple but I may just go this year.

I'm Irish - and dark enough that most people assume that I'm Italian. Half of my relatives are light and fair - the other half are dark (and hairy - at least the guys are) like me. My great-grandmother's maiden name (Co. Tipperary - UP TIP!) could easily be Spanish or Italian if spelled differently - and the family's been based in the same village since way before the Famine. I've been familiar with the term "Black Irish" all my life. So there are those of us out there.

Let's be clear, however: Johnson is not a conservative.

Unfortunately, he is typical of a large number of self-identified conservatives -- the same ones who cheered for Ann Coulter at CPAC. The same ones who got the message when Ronald Reagan opened his campaign in Philedelphia, Mississippi.

You don't get to disavow this contingent of conservatism -- its part of the breed.

Why think about St Patrick's Day when you could have been contemplating the Ides of March?

Why think about St Patrick's Day when you could have been contemplating the Ides of March?

Do you get to drink lots of green beer in celebration of the Ides of March?
Hah. Thought not.

FYI: Plame was "covert"

Does this mean Tom Maguire's head will explode? Not to mention those at Bizarro World.

I never got that controversy. Shouldn't the fact that there was no public evidence to settle it one way or the other have established that she was covert? She is established to have worked for the CIA, and before the outing there doesn't seem to be anyone whose knowledge of that doesn't go back to classified information who knew. If she wasn't covert, someone would have known.

"No. If the people who pushed the earlier story about the bloodthirsty crazed liberals are now shamed into doing a story on bloodthirsty crazed conservatives, the problem is solved."

Really? Sounds to me like the problem is made worse.

"If he is successful in the way that he wants to be, which he states quite clearly, than the problem will not exist in the first place. "

See above. He is attempting to get his comment trawling story into the media. If 'success' means keeping trawling stories from the media, his method exhibits a problematic misunderstanding between happy aims and actual means that is common to say advocating price controls, or consolidating poor people into HUD hellholes.

high-profile right-wing blogs get to complain about low-profile left-wing blogs in the media: no comment

high-profile left-wing blogs try to complain about high-profile right-wing blogs in the media: it lowers the discourse

just a note for all fans of 'Pie': i've made a small change that allows the Pie Factory to make Pie for people with spaces in their names.

(oh yeah... and you can get it, here)

My husband (half British, half Irish) has always been called 'Black Irish' and my aunt in Australia said that that's probabely why he ressembles her son (she married an Irishmen). For me the term has always been clear and familiar.

I'm much darker than the average Dutch person, so I've always assumed that our Spanish overlords left some genes in my family tree.

No St. Patricksday celebration here though: it is not that big in the Netherlands and I have to play basketball so we won't even go to the Irish pub.

it is not that big in the Netherlands and I have to play basketball so we won't even go to the Irish pub.

Bummer. March Madness over St. Pat’s day?!? :)

Tomorrow is a treat for me, just because it falls on a Saturday and the last time I had a free day to “do” the holiday was about 25 years ago. I’m up for green beer and whatever comes. My better half is less enthused but she will humor me for the day. (Then on Sunday she will gleefully give me hell for whatever indiscretions will be forthcoming tomorrow.)

Too bad the weather sucks.

I got warmed up for SPD earlier tonight at the Luminox. It's very cool.

CharleyCarp: How is that I never twigged to the fact that you are in the UK? Weird.

Well, OCS, the fact that I've only been in the UK since Thursday morning, and will be leaving Sunday morning might well account for that.

I'm not expecting you to have obsessively catalogued my movements, location, url, or anything else.

I'm not expecting you to have obsessively catalogued my movements, location, url, or anything else.

Yeah, that's what the NSA's for OCSteve.

Yeah, that's what the NSA's for OCSteve

And I’m sure they keep a close eye on him :)

CharleyCarp: I misunderstood – I was thinking you lived there.

Happy St. Paddy's Day!

I've been traipsing about the house all day talking in Barry Fitzgerald's brogue from "The Quiet Man". Aye, thar'll be no patty fingars, if you please.

Since I'm involved in a long-term affair with the Blarney Stone, I've decided on a unified theory of the Kennedy assassinations, based on Andrew Sullivan's musing's lately about unsubstantiated reports from FBI files on Bobby Kennedy's alleged role in Marilyn Monroe's suicide.

Both Kennedys were taken out by the Mob, at the request of Joe Dimaggio, who was calling in chits owed to him for years and bringing vengeance down upon the Kennedys for the death of his fragile true love. Plus, there was talk of a Mob-funded baseball franchise in Havana, which fell thru after the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

Think of it: four of the biggest folk heros in 20th Century American mythology in one beautiful conspiracy. If we could get Anna Nicole's baby into the story, we'd have something.

I'd swear to it on the grave of me own sainted mother, which thanks be to the little green men, remains empty.

You forgot KSM.

You forgot KSM

KSM's prominence has really made me start to feel bad for these guys.

Maybe these guys can go to work for them.

NPR's "To the Point" is having a discussion of Islam. They have David Frum, of all people, on as an expert to talk about whether Obama is or was a Muslim and is now an apostate who will thus be under a death sentence from the Islamic world.

NPR's "To the Point" is having a discussion of Islam. They have David Frum, of all people, on as an expert to talk about whether Obama is or was a Muslim and is now an apostate who will thus be under a death sentence from the Islamic world.

You're kidding me.

On the bright side, such a death sentence will make him more appealing to certain portions of the far-right.

It gets better: Frum went on to say that Americans used to have overwhelmingly positive attitudes toward Islam, which got even more positive after 9/11, but then after the Danish cartoon controversy (which we all know every American was following obsessively) their attitudes became negative.

but then after the Danish cartoon controversy (which we all know every American was following obsessively) their attitudes became negative.

WTF ?

wow

Frum went on to say that Americans used to have overwhelmingly positive attitudes toward Islam, which got even more positive after 9/11,

Usually having 3,000 of your fellow citizens slaughtered one day by people claiming to act in the name of a certain religion makes you feel like loving that religion even more than you did before - but when people display outrage at cartoons a certain religion considers blasphemous?!!? That's right out.

I agree with cleek, WTF?

Yeah, it doesn't appear to be online yet, but if it shows up I definitely want to transcribe what he said.

Oh, I should have blamed KCRW and PRI, not NPR.

Oh, I should have blamed KCRW and PRI, not NPR.

Can we even get the bulk of NPR programming in DC these days? I can't seem to find it after 90.9 went classical.

My radio is mostly on WAMU 88.5, Ugh. Not sure what NPR programming I'm missing, but there's a fair amount on.

My radio is mostly on WAMU 88.5, Ugh. Not sure what NPR programming I'm missing, but there's a fair amount on.

ah, thanks, for some reason I don't ever search below 90.1, I'll try that next time I'm in the car.

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