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September 15, 2006

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I just had this conversation with the Sig.Other: What is the fascination that women have with underwear? I mean, guys wouldn't get all misty over a pack of Joe Boxers or Fruit of the Loom for a birthday present.

I don't get it.

The comparison between the linked page and Fruit of the Loom is an excellent illustration of your point.

I dunno. It's fun.

crap!
too late.
my 10th anni was yesterday!

D+UG: I mean, guys wouldn't get all misty over a pack of Joe Boxers or Fruit of the Loom for a birthday present.

Well, I've known gay men who would. ;-)

Really: if your partner gave you a set of undies, and you knew she'd given them to you because she found you incredibly attractive in them and wanted to see you in them and then take you out of them...? Or isn't this something straight men think?

I know that the gift of something to wear from someone I'm involved with, knowing she gave it to me because (a) I'd like it (b) she'd like me in it, whether it's from Victoria's Secret or Marks & Spencers... that definitely gets me misty-eyed. And smiling. Whatever it is. Especially if she's right about (a). Actually, especially if she's right about (b). ;-)

"I just had this conversation with the Sig.Other: What is the fascination that women have with underwear?"

One observable phenomenon is that some women (and not others) are pleased by the reaction they get from men they love who regard certain forms of accessorization as a positive stimulus.

It's also perfectly possible, as it is with other such things-done-partially-to-please-another, to be mistaken about the effect this will have on some, or on everyone of the gender they seek to attract, and thus end up doing it more in competition with others of the same gender.

As in many things, attacking a problem overly generally, rather than aiming for the specific target, may not work.

Personally, I've tended to find that I was indifferent to accessories as an attraction when I was very young, but have become increasingly inclined to respond positively as I've grown older. This might be because I've become more brainwashed by my culture, or for any number of possible other reasons.

Or isn't this something straight men think?

Well, not to generalize about what straight men think (wait, what makes you assume I'm straight?), I am quite frequently the recipient of things that my s.o. thinks I would look good in, most recently a snappy black hoodie with red stripes on the arms. And while I'm pleased to wear such things, as she has much better taste in clothing, they do than I do, they don't often make my misty.

Possibly underwear is different because of the sex angle? I considered that, but then again, not many people seem to get romantically misty when their partner presents them with a bucket of red latex, jumper cables, and a french maid outfit and coos "you'd look really hot in these..."

Or maybe that's just me. That one time.

I'm completely odd about this: personally, I like nice bras, but I get incredibly embarrassed by wearing them when someone else might have occasion to see them -- I start thinking: will he think I'm wearing this to produce some effect or other, which God alone knows whether I am capable of producing? And I get all sheepish.

The net effect of which is that I tend, in this respect, to be much better dressed when single.

D+UG: Well, not to generalize about what straight men think

Why not? It's Friday. Have a doughnut, and generalize away. ;-)

Hilzoy: I start thinking: will he think I'm wearing this to produce some effect or other, which God alone knows whether I am capable of producing? And I get all sheepish.

I think this is the advantage of being given the nice bra. By someone who knows your size, naturally.

d-p-u: "Or maybe that's just me. That one time."

I'm sure you're very hot in the French maid outfit. At least so long as the jumper cables are also used.

H: "...personally, I like nice bras, but I get incredibly embarrassed by wearing them when someone else might have occasion to see them...."

I tend to find that the best partners are those who allow us not to be embarrassed about that which we might otherwise be inclined to be, and that partners who encourage or produce or simply don't alleviate our natural tendency to be embarrassed by various things, particularly when based on past experience, aren't doing well at being good partners.

I should probably clearly say that I'm particularly talking about partners we have sex with. :-)

(There are few things more crushing, at least for some of us, than confessing a desire to a lover and having them laugh. Or roll their eyes.)

Are purchases from that catalog supposed to replace marriage proposals in showing our agreement with hilzoy's writings? If so, then it's another thing I'm afraid my wife won't let me participate in.

There are few things more crushing, at least for some of us, than confessing a desire to a lover and having them laugh. Or roll their eyes.

I'd also add the gasping and recoiling in horror and disgust isn't very nice either.

Uh, I mean, I imagine it would be.

I'm also reminded at this point of the Unfogged thread in response to the romantic/makeout music question where one commenter replied something along the lines of "It doesn't matter, I can never hear it over the derisive laughter."

"guys wouldn't get all misty over a pack of Joe Boxers or Fruit of the Loom for a birthday present"

Well, I just read an interview in The Guardian w/ the San Francisco novelist Armistead Maupin, who was reminiscing about a guy who picked him up in a bar because he (Maupin) was wearing Bass Weejuns, so you never know.

Hil, I am already in love with this site. Was particularly struck by the offer to get knickers delivered daily until I realized that was just an email thing - sigh. Also, why do I have to live in unromantic New York, now that I know that Bella Lusso has "perfect fit parties all over Ireland"?

Gentlemen, all I can say is, you either get lingerie or you don't. If you think you could learn, do try, because you will make someone feel very ... pretty. Which is never a bad thing.

Could I possibly put up a less political post? Probably not, but it's been such an awful week in that regard that thinking about underwear seems like a brilliant idea.

Dantheman: I hadn't thought of the possibility of people sending me gorgeous bras whenever they agreed with my posts, but: hey, by all means, feel free. Especially since some of the best bras on that site (cough, Intrigue, cough cough) aren't on sale.

I have other expensive tastes too, in case anyone wants to express really serious agreement. I have always wanted a vintage Jaguar, for instance.

Alternately, you could donate money to Democratic candidates.

/far out theorizing warning/
This whole underwear thing is a holdover from Victorian attitudes about sex, I think. Men are supposed to be overcome by the desire to have sex, while women, whose job is to prevent men from succumbing to these instincts. Thus, a woman is permitted and even encouraged to think about the presentation, whereas the guy is not supposed to be worried about such things, cause when the spirit moves him, he just can't help himself. Underwear, in this reading, is functional, and, as Dave Barry says, if there is only a single thread of underwear molecules holding the article of clothing together, the guy won't throw it out. Getting into lingerie for one's significant other implies a certain level of planning about other events that might occur and would reveal that the guy could actually control his urges, and we know where that might lead, to that frightening territory known as 'responsibility'. Better to convince oneself that it is just a girly thing than to go anywhere near that place.

None of this should actually be suggesting that any of the fine folks in this forum succumb to this thinking.

This is a very ethical post. Highly ethical.
Impressively and deeply ethical. Did I mention ethical?

"What is the fascination that women have with underwear?"

I say yippee! Although my complaint is when function beats out my needs. There is nothing less hot than when a woman, say, wants to know why a man might be fascinated by, say, a bra the woman is wearing and she starts explaining the function of a bra .. lift, support, etc. If I want technical explanations, I'll buy Slart a drink. Because me be needy. But enough about me. I find women's fascination with underwear to be highly ethical. Especially ... well, enough about me.

"Or isn't this something straight men think?"

I'm thinking. O.K., now I'm thinking about baseball. Now I'm not thinking about baseball. I'm really cogitating. All right, this needs to stop because I was just rounding third in my underwear and the catcher looks vaguely like Julie Christie.

"Or roll their eyes"

Yup, there is nothing more boring than another person's fetish. That's why the Marquis de Sade was such a renaissance man. He was very understanding and very ethical. And I am just kidding.

"And I get all sheepish?"

You know, sometimes that works, too. I mean, a little embarrassment is kind of hot.

Jumper cables? I can't tell which is the positive or the negative poll. Is it the red or the black. Last time I used jumper cables I electrocuted myself. Which turned out to be her fantasy. Who'd a thunk?

;)

You could use the jumper cables to start the Jaguar, when the Jaguar, won't, you know, start.

The Victorians. That gives me an idea for some innocent, vague role-playing. Except the sweety always starts to giggle uncontrollably at such times. Then we have to start over from the beginning. Cut!


"Yup, there is nothing more boring than another person's fetish."

I find the fetishes of my (past) sweetie(s) fairly interesting, actually. There's a limit, to be sure, depending upon what it is, but generally speaking, if it gets her excited, I'm darned interested.

Fetishes of non-lovers, less so, sure. Then it's more a matter of how in accord they are with mine, how well the person expresses themselves, and whether it makes me hot. :-)

I'm watching PBS NOW!, by the way, which is all about political bloggers, and the Kos Convention, and The Place Of Blogs. Lots of Markos's face in the camera.

All to the backdrop of the CU football game crowd roaring, out my window, a couple of dozen blocks from here.

John, there's nothing wrong with uncontrollable giggling as foreplay.

My lady had expressed to me a desire to view a little adult entertainment. So I obtained, through various unsavory means, the movie "Pirates", a pornographic movie about some very oversexed buccaneers and their erotic exploits. Unfortunately, the movie wasn't sext at all, just stupid and boring, so we turned it off after about a half hour and got ready for bed.

When I later slipped into bed, my lady was already completely naked. So, I put my hand on her behind, leaned down toward her ear and whispered my best, pirate "Arrrrr".

Neither one of us could stop laughing for almost ten minutes.

I should probably mention that these discussions re underwear with significant other were based on the great discomfort that I experienced when I took my twelve-year-old daughter bra shopping. Despite reading Bitch PhD's article on the subject, I was well out of my depth, and the longer the experience went on, the more I felt like a big pervert.

I won't even go into the purchase of thong underwear by the s.o. for said twelve-year-old, who was upset by some VPL in her back-to-school pants.

Sigh. Boys are way easier. "You like these boxers?" "Yeah. Could you buy me ten pair please?" "Done!"

Except the sweety always starts to giggle uncontrollably at such times. Then we have to start over from the beginning. Cut!

I'm thinking that "cut" is the worst safety word ever.

For Chuchundra

Oh this reminds me of really good story. But I am so not putting it on the internet.

Ask if we ever meet in person....it is really funny.

:)

Seb? Put out, please.

Anything silky and black looks sexy against the skin... gives me butterflies.

"Neither one of us could stop laughing for almost ten minutes"

Did the parrot think it was funny?

Lovely wedding dresses made entirely of toilet paper!

via Treacher

I watched "400 Blows" earlier tonight, and there is a scene in which the boy's mother removes her nylon stockings, a garment which melds function and hamana-hamana perfectly. There is something about the dexterity with which women put them on and took them off, like when girls put their hair up in back complicatedly but with ease with a barette, that makes me want to live forever.

Pantyhose and nerve gas are two of the worst inventions of the 20th century. They work, yes, but you don't feel so good afterwards.

DaveC.:

How were the bridesmaids dressed?

I wore a tuxedo made entirely of blue cheese to my senior prom.

I think John Thulen's 10:39 post is the best Thulen comment ever.

pew, that is a mighty high bar (don't forget to check the comments)

Well, I should have added to Hilzoy's "And I get all sheepish?" reaction, that a guy can always, you know, use the, uhhh, wool.

Now I feel all sheepish.

Aside from the few who wouldn't cotten to that.

Lovely wedding dresses made entirely of toilet paper!

I swear, one of those women is dead ringer for my ex-wife.

Are purchases from that catalog supposed to replace marriage proposals in showing our agreement with hilzoy's writings?

If so, then we're definitely going to need to know her measurements. For accuracy in ordering, see.

Which actually brings me to a question I'd been meaning to pose. I read (and forwarded my partner to) Bitch PhD's article a while back on bra shopping. Jess is, shall we say, extremely well-endowed, to the point where it is difficult for her to find anything that fits, let alone is comfortable. Anyone know of a good place for her to go in the Seattle area?

"I read (and forwarded my partner to)"

Was that via TCP and SMTP? Or UDP? FTP?

Catsy: rumor has it this is the best lingerie store in Seattle. They do not seem to cater to larger cup sizes, but would probably know who does.

Alternately, I'd suggest googling Seattle + one of the decent larger cup size brands. Try Freya, Fantasia, Miss Mandalay.

"Catsy: rumor has it this is the best lingerie store in Seattle."

I have no idea what it's been like in the past twenty years, and neither am I the right person to give a review of lingerie stores, but a former sweetie did buy some nice stuff there decades ago, if I'm not confuzzled.

Was that via TCP and SMTP? Or UDP? FTP?

I had to set up a CNAME for her, actually.

Is there any accounting for the economics of the thing? Why do a few pieces of thread cost $200? Why are women's clothes more expensive than men's clothes?

Off-topic (but speaking of threads): yesterday I had a bitter argument with someone dear to me (I ended up plugging my ears and shouting "ad hominem" much to her disgust) on the topic of whether there was anything offensive at all about what the Pope decided to quote. I thought it was bad form to quote something bigoted unless you can't get by without it. She thought I was full of it. I'm wondering if there's any consensus here on the topic. Is it worth opening a thread?

It seems to me interesting not as a political question but just as a question of etiquette.

Ara:

I don't think anyone should quote very old texts in a bigoted way while dressed as a Pope wearing a black lace teddy underneath. It would be O.K. if a person was wearing a hoop skirt, a leather apron, and jodhpurs and holding a jar of Bosco in one hand and plastic tongs in the other while reenacting scenes from Reconstruction during a George Allen/Tom Tancredo campaign whistle stop in Gatlinburg.

As to the economics of women's clothing, I have a related question. In any given department store or women's apparel store, there are acres of women's garments as far as the eye can see, even at the end of the season just before the new stuff comes in. They take this stuff somewhere.

Where? Are there women's clothing landfills secreted throughout the country? Think of the volume!

JT: I was under the impression they were taken to outlets somewhere pretty far away from already being pretty far away from it all.

I hear the people living in the border towns of Nevada are uncannily well-dressed.

I don't know about other people, but I have always thought that if God had wanted us to pay standard lingerie prices, He wouldn't have given us clearance sales.

hilzoy,
He??

JT,

Ara and hilzoy have it about right. At the end of the season, excess women's clothing first goes on sale, then to outlets and discounters.

What I've found more amusing is the relative amounts of women's clothing for sale compared to men's at the average mall (I'd estimate 3 to 4 times).

Defending the Caveman had an explanation for the sexes' different attitudes towards shopping, with the male attitude summarized as "Me need shirt. Me get shirt. Go home. Watch football on TV."

Not all mens clothing is cheap...

Not all mens clothing is cheap...

...or good.

lj: Since I don't believe in God anyways, I don't particularly care about its gender. God seemed to be called 'He' when I was a Christian, although most theologians were a bit mystified about what gender could mean in that context, so as far as I'm concerned, 'He' it is.

"God seemed to be called 'He' when I was a Christian, although most theologians were a bit mystified about what gender could mean in that context..."
In honor of all those little penises that have been trimmed, God as "She" would be an unkind cut, imo.

Especially for chuchundra :)

Eeuuwwww Slarti... and I thought women sufferd to look beautifull (...By an ingenious system of nylon threads, space-age pulleys and a piton hammered into the breastbone, the wearer can always be sure his waistband is right where Dame Fashion decrees it should be.)

Hilzoy: If theologians are mystified by what gender could mean, what then could paternity mean between two divine beings (or 1 1/2 divine beings), specifically paternity between God the Father and Jesus the Son? I would think that, if anyone, Christian theologians would have to figure out divine gender.

And -- off topic -- does a theologian who believes that the soul is created at conception also believe that a chimera has two souls?

"Where? Are there women's clothing landfills secreted throughout the country?"

Much unsold and used American clothing gets resold in Africa, in fact. There was a very long NY Times Magazine article about how it works, about a year and a half or two ago.

Of course, that was mostly about tee-shirts. But it would be callous of me to restrict people's imaginations.

"what then could paternity mean between two divine beings (or 1 1/2 divine beings), specifically paternity between God the Father and Jesus the Son?"

Why would a non-human being, let alone an omnipotent one, be assumed to reproduce bisexually? An awful lot of even just Earth life doesn't.

Maybe Jesus is a bud.

Maybe Jesus is a bud.

According to the Doobie Brothers, Jesus is my friend.

That would make him a budDY I quess :)

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