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August 31, 2006

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Say hi to Hong Kong for me.

There is always the (high) chance of last second settlement! (Disclaimer: I know nothing about the case in question, the suggestion of a high chance of last second settlement is merely an expression of probability across all cases.)

Break a leg!

Who're you again? (Kidding, kidding...)

Bon voyage! Don't forget to forget your hair gel and underwire bras.

I'm on my way to the beach, myself, probably not to be heard from until Tuesday.

Hope you haven't already been here, von. I'd hate to have missed you yet again.

I hope you're wrong, and that the doing is as exciting as the sounding. Enjoy, as much as possible.

My experience with business trips varies immensely. Most are dull and uninteresting, as one gets no time to do anything but go from airport to meeting (or court appearance) and back.

On the other hand, about a decade ago, I was with a company that, for reasons never very clear, encouraged the lawyers to go out regularly to finish negotiating leases. Sometimes we finished a lease 2 or 3 weeks faster that way, and possibly the profit from the store being open that much earlier paid for the last minute plane fare, and the value of having the lawyer not able to handle other matters in the office that day. Possibly not.

On the other hand, a few times, the meetings did not consume the entire day, and I had time to see a museum or something I wouldn't get to see otherwise, which is at least something.

And then there was one of the better days. I went to Cleveland, and had nothing really to do except have everyone sit around a sign the leases -- no actual negotiation. On the other hand, the Landlord wanted to impress my company, to become our preferred developer in NE Ohio (where a real turf battle was going on then). As a result, the day conssited of getting driven to a couple of sites where our stores were going up (which I had next to nothing useful to do), lunch at the Stadium Club at Jacobs Field (no game that day, though), sign the leases, and then visit the Rock Hall of Fame. After that, I got taken to a high end dinner, along with my company's real estate agent. Not a bad day, all in all.

I won't be in town until the 14-15th, Slartibartfast, at which point I take up residence at the Westin. (And it now looks like I'm going to have to send someone else on the HK trip. Bummer.)

Ack -- "sit around a sign" should be "sit around and sign"

and

"conssited" should be "consisted"

Did you work for a REIT, DtM?

Sebastian, ordinarily I'd agree, but in this case the possibility of a settlement is only slightly less than the possibility of Yassir Arafat coming back from the grave to play sax in a band with Charles Johnson.

von, I know that you won't believe me, and I know nothing of your case (obviously), but I said something similar (I think I, less colorfully, employed a reference to snowballs in hell) about an incredibly complex and venomous litigation a mere 48 hours before we signed a settlement agreement. Eve of trial, natch. I was furious. The settlement was definitely in the best interests of the client, and I unequivocally recommended that they accept it, but damn...I wanted to try that f**ker.

Dantheman, are you at liberty to say who that Cleveland landlord/developer was? And more importantly, where did you have dinner? (I'm a former Clevelander.)

Von,
Resist the temptation to get lots of prezzies for the little one. Something small and unbreakable from the airport is usually the best thing. (though you are probably not the doting parent like I have been known to be)

von: have fun on your remaining trips.

I just got back, proceeded to take a wrong turn coming home from the airport and end up in DC at rush hour; and when I finally got home, two of my smoke detectors were chirping in the most annoying fashion, and it took me two hours to figure out how to get them to stop.

Aaargh.

von,

"Did you work for a REIT, DtM?"

No, a chain store (if I worked for a REIT then, I'd have been representing the landlord, not the tenant). Reasonably well known, but I am not disclosing the name.

Phil,

"Dantheman, are you at liberty to say who that Cleveland landlord/developer was? And more importantly, where did you have dinner? (I'm a former Clevelander.)"

Likely at liberty, but don't recall the specific name. The partner with signing authority for the landlord also ran a number of radio stations in Cleveland, and we signed the leases at the offices of the stations.

I don't recall the name of the restuarant, although it was posh and downtown (walking distance from Rock Hall of Fame). Since this was in 1996, not sure if it is still there, but if you throw out names, maybe one will ring a bell.

I always try to work in a little extra time on business travel, and sometimes succeed. I've liked Cleveland more than I thought I would, and this is especially true of the R&R Hall of Fame. My most frequent destination is Philadelphia, though, and it took me 10 years to get to the bell. I did a thing several years ago where I had to spend 3 or 4 weeks over two months in Indianapolis, coming home on the weekends. I'm sure I didn't see everything, but Tippecanoe is worth the visit, just to see how little it takes to make one a war hero, and there are some interesting mounds northeast of the city as well.

Von, is the trial in your home venue, or on the road?

I may have a trial in early October in Springfield, Illinois. Does anyone know of anything good to do or eat there?

Charley,

My parents went to see the Lincoln house in Springfield, and enjoyed it. I don't think they thought there was more to see than would take a day or two, though.

good luck von.

Only business trips I've ever taken have been to D.C. I felt very fancy taking the shuttle in work clothes. It sounds like you're much fancier.

Charlie, I think there's some new Lincoln museum that opened last year, or was refurbished or something--I remember some ceremony where Durbin and Obama spoke--but I don't know the details. Never been downstate, at all.

It'll probably be a short trial -- if it goes at all: the other side has a motion for summary judgment pending. Lincoln sounds worth the visit. I'm still pretty annoyed at myself for not going to Nauvoo when I was out in Illinois for depositions in February.

I wrote a short post on my blog with a note about mixing pleasure and work travel. I http://charleycarp.blogspot.com/2006/05/goodbye-to-goodbye-to-river.html>link it (and http://charleycarp.blogspot.com/2006/08/kansas-she-said-is-name-of-her-star.html>another) here as homage to Mr. Farber.

What's Nauvoo?

Speaking of Illinois, this Tuesday I'm planning to join both the legal profession and the Chicago voting rolls.

What's Nauvoo? Only the wellspring (3.0) of Mormonism, Katherine!

Von, how about Putin, Chirac, Ahmedinajad, Blair, Zawahiri, Olmert, Cheney, and the Pope Benedict as a living jazz octet? Even if their gig were to benefit alien invasion (which might be the only proposition they could agree on), I would find a way to shell out the cash to see them.

See, now that's the glass half full version. I think of it as an experiment that failed through intolerance.

Think what would have happened had civic order been maintained. Smith lives. Nauvoo thrives. The founding Hejira is the small one from Missouri to Nauvoo, rather than out to the desert: this has to have a huge impact on how the faith and community evolve.

Katherine, surely one is permitted to register to vote several times in Chicago, just to keep up with the neighbors. Or the cemeteries.

okay, I have heard of Unpleasantness in Illinois, though I'd blanked on the town name and the details.

Everything I know about Mormonism is from Angels in America, Wikipedia, and the Monkey Wrench Gang.

Katherine, you won't regret reading Krakauer's http://www.reviewsofbooks.com/under_the_banner_of_heaven/>Under the Banner of Heaven.

...in this case the possibility of a settlement is only slightly less than the possibility of Yassir Arafat coming back from the grave to play sax in a band with Charles Johnson.

Now the kids are wondering why I'm giggling in front of the computer.

Hurry back, Von.

JackMormon, do you actually have land in the Yukon? Or was that the usual Unfogged silliness?

CC:

This may be too far away, but Allerton Park has really, really cool gardens and sculptures.

The Capitol Buildings (old and new) are sort of neat - I went there when the kids were little, and the New Salem village restoration of where Lincoln lived as a young man. I think that those are 9 to 5 tourist places, but Allerton Park you should be able just to drive there after 5 and walk around until dark.

Charley, are you trying to bait me? I suspect that American history would have turned out very differently indeed had the Mormons not been hounded out of Missouri or Illinois. Most of their contemporary religious utopian movements collapsed under their contradictions; the LDS was probably headed that way before Joseph Smith was killed and control passed to the Mormon frontier equivalent of Robert Moses.

On another note, it's been interesting to see Tacitus revive the anti-Mormon legislation of the late 19th c. as a precedent for targetting Muslims, btw. While I would need to read up on the scholarship to challenge his legal point (there are a number of books on my to-read list), it's probably not irrelevant to note that even mainstream Mormon tradition remembers that period as typifying persecution. To the extent that a lot of liberal Mormons felt sympathy towards the Branch Davidians.

double-plus-ungood,
At the very least, I have a moral claim to time on my grandad's cabin, which looks out on what used to be called Book Mountain, about a half-hour south of Carcross. The moral claim might very well be all that's left, though; it was a complicated estate.

Millenial religious movements, that's a topic I can get into. Wonder if anyone has read Harry Turtledove's stuff. The characters are wooden, and I wonder how 'creative' it is to simply take historical characters with whom we have some acquaintance with and recast them in different roles, but the Utah/Mormon thread (in which he has the Mormon's act as suicide bombers in the 40's) of the story, I'd be interested to know what JM thinks. This link is from the wiki Turtledove fans have started their own here, which is also quite interesting.

Bait is such an ugly sounding word. No, I was just imagining it myself at the time. I don't approve of mob lawlessness, other than as necessary to end tyranny. Even then, 'regime change' imposed from without, or general oppression -- and I think that is a fair description of the period -- when the body doesn't present imminent danger doesn't fit my idea of how people are supposed to act.

I'm an outlier on this, way out maybe, but I think statutes prohibiting religiously sanctioned polygamy are not constitutional. In law school I remember being especially offended by a http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=329&invol=14>Supreme Court decision upholding the Mann Act conviction of a polygamist. That's 'transporting a woman in interstate commerce for immoral purposes,' and here the immoral purpose was continuation of a marriage.

We conclude, moreover, that polygamous practices are not excluded from the Act. They have long been outlawed in our society. As stated in Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 , 164: 'Polygamy has always been odious among the northern and western nations of Europe, and, until the establishment of the Mormon Church, was almost exclusively a feature of the life of Asiatic and of African people. At common law, the second marriage was always void (2 Kent, Com. 79), and from the earliest history of England polygamy has been treated as an offense against society.' As subsequently stated in Mormon Church v. United States, 136 U.S. 1, 49 , 10 S.Ct. 792, 805; 'The organization of a community for the spread and practice of polygamy is, in a measure, a return to barbarism. It is contrary to the spirit of Christianity and of the civilization which Christianity has produced in the western world.' . . . The establishment or maintenance of polygamous households is a notorious example of promiscuity.
I expect better from Justice Douglas. This excerpt from http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=136&invol=1#49>Mormon Church upholding the seizure of all LDS property is also, in my view, over the edge:
It is distinctly stated in the pleadings and findings of fact that the property of the said corporation was held for the purpose of religious and charitable uses. But it is also stated in the findings of fact, and is a matter of public notoriety, that the religious and charitable uses intended to be subserved and promoted are the inculcation and spread of the doctrines and usages of the Mormon Church, or Church of Latter Day Saints, one of the distinguishing features of which is the practice of polygamy,-a crime against the laws, and abhorrent to the sentiments and feelings of the civilized world. Notwithstanding the stringent laws which have been passed by congress, notwithstanding all the efforts made to suppress this barbarous practice,the sect or community composing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints perseveres, in defiance of law, in preaching, upholding, promoting, and defending it. It is a matter of public notoriety that its emissaries are engaged in many countries in propagating this nefarious doctrine, and urging its converts to join the community in Utah. The existence of such a propaganda is a blot on our civilization. The organization of a community for the spread and practice of polygamy is, in a measure, a return to barbarism. It is contrary to the spirit of Christianity, and of the civilization which Christianity has produced in the western world. The question, therefore, is whether the promotion of such a nefarious system and practice, so repugnant to our laws and to the principles of our civilization, is to be allowed to continue by the sanction of the government itself, and whether the funds accumulated for that purpose shall be restored to the same unlawful uses as heretofore, to the detriment of the true interests of civil society. It is unnecessary here to refer to the past history of the sect; to their defiance of the government authorities; to their attempt to establish an independent community; to their efforts to drive from the territory all who were not connected with them in communion and sympathy. The tale is one of patience on the part of the American government and people, and of contempt of authority and resistance to law on the part of the Mormons. Whatever persecutions they may have suffered in the early part of their history, in Missouri and Illinois, they have no excuse for their persistent defiance of law under the government of the United States.

One pretense for this obstinate course is that their belief in the practice of polygamy, or in the right to indulge in it, is a religious belief, and therefore under the protection of the constitutional guaranty of religious freedom. This is altogether a sophistical plea. No doubt the Thugs of India imagined that their belief in the right of assassination was a religious belief; but their thinking so did not make it so. The practice of suttee by the Hindu widows may have sprung from a supposed religious conviction. The offering of human sacrifices by our own ancestors in Britain was no doubt sanctioned by an equally conscientious impulse. But no one, on that account, would hesitate to brand these practices, now, as crimes against society, and obnoxious to condemnation and punishment by the civil authority. The state has a perfect right to prohibit polygamy, and all other open offenses against the enlightened sentiment of mankind, notwithstanding the pretense of religious conviction by which they may be advocated and practiced.

The difference between consensual adult polygamy and human sacrifice ought to have been obvious enough to the Court. But then, this is the same set of men, more or less, who decided Plessy v. Ferguson.

You know, I'm a bit baffled by the fact that Utah is so solidly Red after reading the steps the government took against the Mormons, but there is a similar phenomenon here in Japan, in that the New Komeito party here seems to support every big government, nationalist revival notion the Liberal Dem party has proposed, which is quite bizarre to me, because the party is closely linked to Soka Gakkai, whose founder, Tsunesaburo Makiguchi, and 20 of the leaders of the sect were imprisoned because the refused to acknowledge the emperor as a deity and Makiguchi was tortured and died in prison. There have been occasions when the church disagreed with the party, but those disagreements are few and far between.

What's Nauvoo? Only the wellspring (3.0) of Mormonism,

if that's 3.0, does that mean Palmyra, NY is 1.0 ?

Putin, Chirac, Ahmedinajad, Blair, Zawahiri, Olmert, Cheney, and the Pope Benedict as a living jazz octet?

i immediately pictured the cantina band in Mos Isley (Star Wars, ep.IV)

Don't insult the cantina band.

LJ, it's taking a while for people to figure out that the Republicans aren't the small-government party anymore (assuming they ever were), just as it took some time for some Southerners to figure it out when the Democratic Party stopped being the party for racists.

Also, the fact that the Republicans aren't the small-government party doesn't mean that the Democrats are.

At the very least, I have a moral claim to time on my grandad's cabin, which looks out on what used to be called Book Mountain, about a half-hour south of Carcross.

Carcross is a lovely spot. If you haven't been there, I highly recommend it.

if that's 3.0, does that mean Palmyra, NY is 1.0?

That's how I was counting, but I think there's a phase I'm missing.

Carcross is a lovely spot. If you haven't been there, I highly recommend it.

It's a good jumping-off point for even lovelier spots.

I'm a bit baffled by the fact that Utah is so solidly Red...

I blame the Patriarchy!

And Charley, I knew those decisions were strange, but I never knew how strange. I really should look more carefully into the post-Young period.

Likely at liberty, but don't recall the specific name. The partner with signing authority for the landlord also ran a number of radio stations in Cleveland, and we signed the leases at the offices of the stations.

Ah, OK -- there's a name in the back of my mind, but I moved away 7 years ago so it's not coming easily to my tongue. The number of locally-owned stations in Cleveland was small even then, largely limited to AM stations and a few urban-format stations. Everything else had a large, out-of-town corporate parent.

I don't recall the name of the restuarant, although it was posh and downtown (walking distance from Rock Hall of Fame). Since this was in 1996, not sure if it is still there, but if you throw out names, maybe one will ring a bell.

John Q's? Majorca? Greek Isle?

Hilzoy:

Hmm. We might have passed each other in the airport. I was just in Tyson's Corner.

CharlieCarp:

Von, is the trial in your home venue, or on the road?

On the road. And it's too bad: it's in a place where you want a trial to go in January, not September.

ST, I know you're never supposed to say never, but I'll say it: This case won't settle.

Then go forth, von, and drive your enemies before you.

Don't forget to hear the lamentation of their women, too.

"ST, I know you're never supposed to say never, but I'll say it: This case won't settle."

Some cases do go to trial. It is just really rare. If this case does, it is a good reminder that talking about statistical chances isn't the same as talking about a specific instance.

von: if we did pass like ships in the night, that's probably lucky for you: after ages and ages in the plane, waiting for customs, etc, I was not feeling particularly chipper. I would have liked to meet you, but I regret not having done so yesterday less than I would under other circumstances.

It would have been even worse if you had beamed into my living room after the two hours of chirping fire alarms. I was not a happy camper.

Phil,

None of the above restaurants sounds right. I recall a number in the name, and want to say it was 23. The cuisine certainly does not sound like what I would expect at the last 2 you mentioned.

I agree with the Under the Banner of Heaven recommendation. Very interesting. Not difficult reading.

Good luck on your travels, von.

Since this is apparently an open thread, I have a question for anyone with better search skills than myself. I'm trying to track down an ObWi post that hilzoy made in the last year or two refuting in great detail the "Democrats have no ideas/policy proposals" meme. There may have been more than one, but I'm remembering at least one with all sorts of supporting linkage. I should have bookmarked it at the time and now I'm having trouble finding it.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can find the url for that post.

I'm guessing you are thinking of this one .

And in the spirit of teaching him how to fish:

I found it by going to google and clicking on "Advanced Search"

In the "Domain" selection I entered the general address for ObsidianWings: http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/

Then you put in whatever words you think will help. In this case I used "democrats no ideas".

Alternatively you could enter "democrats no ideas site:http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/" in the general google search engine, but I always forget the exact syntax so I go through the advanced search function.

Thanks, Sebastian! I had tried searching with "democrats ideas", but for some reason I didn't think to add the "no".

Tony: Here are the two that leapt to (my) mind: one, two.

hilzoy, thanks! It was actually the first one you linked to that I was remembering, but the more recent one is useful too.

As we approach election season, I'm starting to hear the "no ideas" meme again, and I wanted some ammunition for arguing with.

sock here.

It's a sad day for all of us sock-puppets--really a black day for the whole guild.

As you may know, one of our gang got busted yesterday. Sprezzatura. Turned out he was working with a low-life scum named "Lee Siegel".

And now a decent sock, a guy I've known for years, is out of a job. And people are crowing about it! All over the internet. Makes me feel pretty sick, I've got to tell you.

I keep telling my guys: watch who you work with! You're a sock-puppet--all you've got is your reputation! And maybe buttons for eyes, and some thread where the mouth goes, maybe. But that's it--if you lose your reputation in this game, you've lost it all.

And now Sprezz has lost it all. People never think about the socks, how it affects them. What will this mean for his family?

I mean, it's easy for me--I'm single. Lost my mate awhile ago--and just don't even do the dryer jokes, they're not funny.

That's why I'm not so choosy--I freelance here and there, pick up work with anyone who'll pay me.

But for Sprezz--this was his only gig, he'd been doing it for years, and now: this. Kablooey.

Damned sad day, is all I've got to say.

"APOLOGIES. I will all-but-disappear for the next several months...."

Meant nothing but kindly: this would be different from the past year, how?

"Wonder if anyone has read Harry Turtledove's stuff."

Yes.

LJ: "You know, I'm a bit baffled by the fact that Utah is so solidly Red"

Meet Jim Matheson.

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