Sheesh! (Special Jeff Goldstein Edition)

by hilzoy

It's been coming on for a while now. There was his claim that "constant naysaying" from the left has "has objectively hurt the war effort", and more recently this fascinating prediction: "I’m beginning to think that a (non-violent) civil war is coming—and that, frankly, it needs to happen." But now it's finally happened: in my completely unprofessional opinion, Jeff Goldstein has come unglued.

Basically, here's the story: Atrios wrote a snarky post about Jeff. Apparently, Tristero said something good about it -- I can't find it on Hullabaloo (the relevant time period seems to be off their main page, but not yet in their archives), but since Jeff apparently didn't read it either, I'm not sure what it would add. Jeff apparently took offense at the fact that Tristero was commenting on Protein Wisdom while criticizing him of Hullaballoo, and wrote a bizarro comment banning him. It has to be seen to be believed, though it is not work-safe (actually, it's pretty revolting.) In it, Jeff not only provides several different graphic (and completely gratuitous) descriptions of things Tristero is supposedly doing to or with his (Jeff's) dog, but also the fascinating suggestion that Tristero has been fellating, not Atrios, but one of Atrios' posts. (Is that conceptually possible?)

Jeff also says that Tristero "has the intellect of a gibbon". This DVD, which I highly recommend, has an interview with Tristero, so you can judge his intellect for yourself. (If you get the DVD, you can also compare Tristero's creative work to Jeff's. I was tempted to add that that wouldn't really be fair, but then thought: why on earth not? The only real difference I can see, other than quality, is that Jeff Goldstein advertises his artistic pretensions, while Tristero wears his so lightly that you wouldn't know they were there.)

This was just one of those moments that's too weird to pass unremarked.

Comments

[Jeff G]

What Tristero said is that I really am too stupid to realize how stupid I am -- which is what Atrios' post argued by way of "explaining" me through a 1999 study. I found Tristero's eagerness to please Atrios by approvingly citing his assessment of me rather obnoxious and unfair; I further found it ungracious of him, given that he'd posted 40-50 comments on my site over the last couple weeks, and I don't recall being rude to him, or impeding him in any way from expressing his opinions.

If he finds me to be an idiot, why the desire to engage? Or, if he's the genius you claim he is, why is he hanging out poking us clearly inferior (both intellectually and, evidently, creatively, too) mouth breathers with a stick?

At any rate, you have much factually wrong here: first, I stopped reading tristero's comments on my site. I had been trying to stay out of arguments in the comments sections and concentrate on posts, so I simply skipped over them. Some of the threads have 400+ comments. So I can't read and respond to them all. That doesn't mean I didn't read his POST, which is what I took offense to. I did.

Second, you note the "civil war" comment but neglect to mention that my purpose, which I later explained quite clearly, was to frame it as an extension of the culture war -- particularly the war for the soul of classical liberalism, which I see as being under attack from what is a pernicious brand of collectivism that shows itself in identity politics, the "diversity" movement, and a particularly dangerous, epistemologically decentering form or multiculturalism inspired by Edward Said -- and I noted that I had no idea how it would happen, but that it could manifest itself in demographic shifts or certain states re-dedicating themselves to federalist legal principles and legal conservatism. Now, I realize it doesn't seem quite so shocking put that way, but there you have it, all neatly explained.

Third, if you don't believe the "Bush lied" meme -- and other idiotic repetitions have objectively hurt the war effort -- then you must believe that words carry no weight. The question becomes, if these mantras are so ineffective, why spend so much time repeating them? Do they effect public opinion, which then impacts poll numbers? If so, they are weakening the public will -- and this was a strategic aim of UBL. Read his own words. Denying that words have an effect (and here's an idea, ask a few soldiers -- plenty of them comment over at my site, or read some of the work Austin Bay has done on the subject) is a way to avoid responsibility. I have had no problem criticizing what I believe has been done wrong as far as military tactics and strategy in Iraq; why should those whose rhetoric had an impact on the way the Iraq narrative has been formed and peddled not be willing to take responsibility for their efforts?

Finally, if you're going to pimp my fiction, pick something that is at least finished. This or this might do.

Incidentally, I was asked by readers to expand my "about" section and post some of my fiction. I did this only very recently, though my site has been running since 2001. So I hardly think I go out of my way to "advertise" my artistic pretensions.

That's all. I'm glad you have a high opinion of Tristero. Me, I had no opinion of him whatever until he decided to ingratiate himself with Atrios by taking an unprovoked shot at me.

Not that any of this will matter to you. You have your story, told to you the way you wish to hear it, and you'll stick to it.

[Josh]

Now, I realize it doesn't seem quite so shocking put that way, but there you have it, all neatly explained.

Somehow, I don't think shocking was the word hilzoy would chose to describe the "civil war" comment. At least, not the way you seem to mean it...

But as for this:

Not that any of this will matter to you. You have your story, told to you the way you wish to hear it, and you'll stick to it.

Then what exactly are you doing posting here?

[hilzoy]

Josh -- it's his bid for the Karnak award, no doubt. Though since he divined that I think Tristero is -- a genius? I'm never sure how to use that word -- at any rate an extremely good composer, as good as anyone now living that I can think of offhand, without my so much as saying a word one way or the other, he has a better track record than a lot of Karnak contenders.

Maybe being epistemologically decentered helps. Who knows?

I still can't figure out why he kept dragging his poor dog into it, though.

[Sifu Tweety]

Jeff, I love you man, you're like a drunk, 10 year old literary postmodernist. With the thin skin! I never knew such a thing existed. Maybe you could go on the road as the right-wing comedy Chomsky?

Hilzoy: I think we've got him on the ropes. Every Keyboard Kommando launched embarrassingly over the edge is a notch in our teepee, eh?

[DaveC]

Hi Jeff,

I don't comment or read the comments at your place because of limited time, but look at protein wisdom fairly often, maybe 3+ times a week, and find informative and eloquent posts, plus some amusing stuff and even short stories from time to time. Thanks for dropping in. I imagine you run your household sort of like Pat Conroy's dad did, except you are a wimpy stay at home Mr. Mom instead of a dogface. Still, yelling at a toddler for not keeping their caulk bead consistently thick and straight is something I'd like to see. Do me a favor, give Gary Farber a call some time (he's in your neighborhood), take him out to Chuck E Cheese and immerse him in a quasi-Lileks experience. Then you can both write about it, which would be sweet, and maybe fix up the grout in the shower afterwards.

[hilzoy]

Sifu Tweety: I think he launched himself. (Maybe with a Hindrocket!)

[ImJohnGalt]

Does that fact that UBL has also said his goal was to bankrupt the US by having it spend its treasure on fighting terrorism mean that Bush is hurting the war effort by doing what UBL said he wanted the US to do?
Just curious.

[Steve]

Careful, gents. You don't know where that face-slapping extremity has been.

[Josh]

you're like a drunk, 10 year old literary postmodernist

I want to frame this.

[hilzoy]

Steve: until I checked out Balloon Juice just now, I didn't know that Tim F. chose today to wonder why everyone is picking on Jeff. And until I read the comments, I didn't know the comment you're referring to. What with all those face-slapping genitalia, molested dogs, even me "pimping" his writing, there's a certain sameness to his metaphors. (Although, now that I think of it, pimping writing is sort of unlikely, in the same way as fellating Atrios' post.)

[Steve]

Unlikely in the same way, perhaps, but the latter seems more prone to result in splinters.

[hilzoy]

Steve: maybe he should slap the post with the pride of his manhood...

(OT: my second favorite sentence from a trashy novel: "The glory of his manhood filled the room."

Best of all time: "Her breasts glowed like amber melons."

Both remembered from over 20 years ago in college; when something makes you laugh that hard, it's hard to forget.)

[The Heretik]

A one hundred twelve "word"-- epistomological-- and I noted, sentence. A pernicious brand of a Goldstein record. Or something.

Second, you note the "civil war" comment but neglect to mention that my purpose, which I later explained quite clearly, was to frame it as an extension of the culture war -- particularly the war for the soul of classical liberalism, which I see as being under attack from what is a pernicious brand of collectivism that shows itself in identity politics, the "diversity" movement, and a particularly dangerous, epistemologically decentering form or multiculturalism inspired by Edward Said -- and I noted that I had no idea how it would happen, but that it could manifest itself in demographic shifts or certain states re-dedicating themselves to federalist legal principles and legal conservatism.

Oy.

[rilkefan]

I dunno, I don't think I've ever seen anything in the least interesting under Tristero's name at Digby's place, while Jeff (if I'm not confused) is considered by Plameologists to be one of the sharpest people in their ranks. And I would I think react rather negatively if I found out that someone commenting here in apparent good faith and civility had anything positive to say about a post comparing an ObWi PTB to people at "at the 12th percentile in tests of humor, grammar and logic".

[Straw Grasper]

pernicious brand of collectivism that shows itself in identity politics, the "diversity" movement, and a particularly dangerous, epistemologically decentering form or multiculturalism inspired by Edward Said

I love this shit. String together four standard-issue rightist catchphrases, add the hated Edward Said, and toss "epistemologically decentering" in there for pseudo-intellectual spice and Goldstein thinks he's got some grand theory of all that is wrong with left/liberal politics, "neatly explained." Like a college freshman who got drunk instead of doing the reading so he just throws some jargon in his essay hoping to bullshit the TA into a C-.