Support A Ban On Extraordinary Rendition

by hilzoy

Via email, Katherine the Sorely Missed tells me that Edward Markey has introduced a bill, H. R. 952, that would outlaw extraordinary rendition. Most readers of this blog are probably familiar with extraordinary rendition, but just in case: Katherine summarized the issues in an earlier post, in which she wrote: ""Extraordinary rendition" is the euphemism we use for sending terrorism suspects to countries that practice torture for interrogation. As one intelligence official described it in the Washington Post, "We don't kick the sh*t out of them. We send them to other countries so they can kick the sh*t out of them.” "

Markey's bill would require the Secretary of State to produce annually "a list of countries where there are substantial grounds for believing that torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment is commonly used in the detention of or interrogation of individuals." It would then prohibit the transfer of prisoners or detainees to any country on the most recent list, or to any other country which there is reason to think might transfer someone to a country on that list. This prohibition can be waived if we have reason to think that the country has ended the practices that got it on the list, and if "there is in place a mechanism that assures the United States in a verifiable manner that a person transferred, rendered, or returned will not be tortured or subjected to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment in that country, including, at a minimum, immediate, unfettered, and continuing access, from the point of return, to each such person by an independent humanitarian organization." But it cannot be waived on the basis of mere assurances that the person will not be tortured.

Extraordinary rendition is a loathsome practice. If we have grounds to think that someone is a terrorist, we ought to charge that person and try him or her in a court of law. If we do not have enough evidence to bring charges, our response should be to try to develop some, not to ship that person off to another country to be tortured. This is completely inconsistent with our respect for the rule of law, and with our claim to basic decency. It is unworthy of our country, and it should be banned.

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that it will be. A few weeks ago, Bob Herbert wrote:

"Unfortunately, the outlook for this legislation is not good. I asked Pete Jeffries, the communications director for House Speaker Dennis Hastert, if the speaker supported Mr. Markey's bill. After checking with the policy experts in his office, Mr. Jeffries called back and said: "The speaker does not support the Markey proposal. He believes that suspected terrorists should be sent back to their home countries."

Surprised, I asked why suspected terrorists should be sent anywhere. Why shouldn't they be held by the United States and prosecuted?

"Because," said Mr. Jeffries, "U.S. taxpayers should not necessarily be on the hook for their judicial and incarceration costs."

It was, perhaps, the most preposterous response to any question I've ever asked as a journalist. It was not by any means an accurate reflection of Bush administration policy. All it indicated was that the speaker's office does not understand this issue, and has not even bothered to take it seriously.

More important, it means that torture by proxy, close kin to contract murder, remains all right. Congressman Markey's bill is going nowhere. Extraordinary rendition lives."

This issue is too important, both to those individuals directly affected by it and to our moral standing as a nation, to let this bill die quietly. I would urge those of you who support this bill to write your representatives (you can find their email addresses here) and urge them to support the bill, and (if they are not already among its co-sponsors) to co-sponsor it. I would also ask those of you who have blogs to consider linking to this post and writing on this topic. Bloggers, notably including Katherine, helped bring the practice of extraordinary rendition to people's attention, and bloggers may be able to help raise awareness of this bill, or at least raise the political costs to those who oppose it. This is not a bill that should die without anyone noticing, and we can work to make sure that it doesn't.

This should not be a liberal or conservative issue; it's an issue that concerns all Americans as Americans. I love my country. I want it to stand for what's right, and that includes standing for human rights and against torture. That's why I support this bill, and why I hope that others will as well.

Comments

[Catsy]

I've made my opinions on TtWD quite well-known to the moderators in the past. I suggest we not turn this into a meta-discussion on Timmy's banning.

[Macallan]

What a joke.

This a ban purely on style and idealogy, not the posting rules.

[Jesurgislac]

Macallan: This a ban purely on style and idealogy, not the posting rules.

See, comments like this (while I don't disagree with Hilzoy's decision) are why I think that the announcement that Timmy was banned ought to have come from Sebastian (who has made some sharp comments to Timmy in the past about his behavior, which were AFAICS ignored), or Slartibartfast, or Von.

[DaveC]

Macallan,
This a ban purely on style and idealogy, not the posting rules.

You're wrong:

Here's the difference, I think: liberals tend to have faith in the ideal or the goal--truth, justice, human rights, democracy--and the process by which you seek that goal -- banning certain types of speech if you the intentions behind that speech are bad, or accusing people of to being an apologist for torture, or being cowardly and pathetic -- is totally justifiable.

Macallan, you are probably close to being on the list. I think Tacitus got unbanned, however. (It would be nice to see the list.)

bob, you responded to my comment about the Moe thing in a totally classy way. Thanks. I used you as an example because generally you are a thoughtful guy, and we all sometimes get emotional when we are discussing things (even conservatives who have no feelings.)

[DaveC]

And also to clarify things, I don't really think that Moe gave up the blogging because of mean comments. He got married and I think his priorities changed.

[Macallan]

Macallan, you are probably close to being on the list.

Ahh, the "list" is it?

[ral]

There's the pestilential nuisances
Who write for autographs,
All people who have flabby hands
And irritating laughs
...

[Anarch]

DaveC: Macallan, you are probably close to being on the list. I think Tacitus got unbanned, however. (It would be nice to see the list.)

Can I suggest that, if you're not a ObWiHiveMindGod kinda person, you don't a) try to speak for their decisions or b) make veiled remarks about people's potential banning? They're plenty capable of the former and are the only people who can properly do the latter -- plus, they've been very good at being forthright about posts that irk them so there's no needed for the circumspection anyway.

Put another way: other sites might require in-thread surrogate moderation but this one isn't one of them. Trying to do so turns existing threads into meta-commentaries about the suitability of various posters, which inevitably dominate the discussion and ultimately end in meltdown. Just trust in the HiveMind to do their jobs and email the kitty if you think they're not.

[rilkefan]

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list--I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed--who never would be missed!

[Anarch]

That's funny; I sort of assumed that LJ would turn out to be a closet Mikado, not ral!

[Anarch]

...or rilkefan. Good grief!

[ral]

I knew I was in with a good crowd here. (oops, is that another song cue?)

[hilzoy]

Groan. There is no list.

I love the Mikado.

[ral]

If you are a G&S fan, you will probably enjoy Anna Russell's "how to write your own Gilbert & Sullivan opera."

[Anarch]

If you are a G&S fan, you will probably enjoy Anna Russell's "how to write your own Gilbert & Sullivan opera."

In fact, I do! I think I even saw it live, maaaaaany years ago when I were but a wee lad; I'll have to check with my parents about that.

One of my music-snob friends heard her Ring Cycle -- another one of those pieces that really needs to be seen to be properly understood -- a few weeks ago and was absolutely blown away. Said it was one of the funniest things he'd ever heard, and I can't really blame him. I just hope she's got it in her to do one last tour...

[ral]

Her "Ring" is on that same album. I saw her live once (also several years ago) -- she did the do-it-yourself G&S ("this is the chorus hat"). She's great live, even funnier than the recording.

[rilkefan]

I'm not actually a G&S fan - "Patience" offends me deeply as a poet - I somehow thought there was a song with that "little list" line in "Sweeney Todd". Probably was thinking of "A Little Priest". Anyway, in the time it took me to determine this ral totally scooped me.

As usual, Anarch speaks for me at 2:18, though I do think it useful to point out what one considers incivility before things get out of hand.

[Anarch]

Probably was thinking of "A Little Priest".

Is it really good?

[rilkefan]

No, you see the trouble with poet is,
How do you know it's deceased?
Try the priest.

[hilzoy]

One of the many, many reasons to buy Richard Thompson's '1,000 Years of Popular Music' CD is to hear his version of 'There is Beauty', about which he said: "trying to render an Arthur Sullivan orchestration with acoustic guitar and snare drum is pretty desperate stuff, but may, at a stretch, be thought "charming." " Other reasons include his versions of 'Oops, I Did It Again', along with a medieval sort of version, 'Marry, Ageyn Hic Hev Donne Yt'. Also, his version of Shenandoah.

("The idea for this project came from Playboy Magazine - I was asked to submit a list, in late 1999, of the ten greatest songs of the Millenium. Hah! I thought, hypocrites - they don't mean millennium, they mean twenty years - I'll call their bluff and do a real thousand-year selection. My list was similar to the choices here on this CD, starting in about 1068, and winding slowly up to 2001. That they failed to print my list among others submitted by rock's luminaries, is but a slight wound.")

[rilkefan]

hilzoy, missed the quotation marks originally and was scratching my head about why Playboy turned to you for music suggestions, and which rock luminary you are.

[Jesurgislac]

Hilzoy: Groan. There is no list.

I think there should be many lists, and we need an open thread to post them. ;-) "List of Bloggers With Whom You Would Have Tea". "List of Bloggers With Whom You Would Have Coffee". "List of Bloggers With Whom You Would Want To Get Drunk". "List of Bloggers To Hang Out With At A Science-fiction Convention". "List of Bloggers To Follow Around Listening To Everything They Say Because They're Smart and Cool". "List of Bloggers To Worship".

[Anarch]

"List of Bloggers To Follow Around Listening To Everything They Say Because They're Smart and Cool". "List of Bloggers To Worship".

Huh. I glanced at that too quickly and thought you'd written "List of Bloggers to Cool-Whip". Not entirely sure what that's supposed to mean but I suspect we'd get some pretty interesting answers.

And hilzoy, the title alone of 'Marry, Ageyn Hic Hev Donne Yt' is giving me stitches. I can only hope the recording is worthy of such genius.

[Jesurgislac]

"List of Bloggers to Cool-Whip"

I forgot that one! List of Bloggers To Cover With Cool-Whip And Then Do Interesting Things To.

[ral]

Like make pizza? (c.f., fafblog!)

[hilzoy]

Anarch: it's actually more of an instrumental snippet (it's a live album, and this sounds like something they did between sets, included for fun.) But the renaissance 'So Ben Mi Ca Bon Tempo' is fun.

I wonder if I could put a couple of songs in my .mac public folder fro a short period of time... but I have no idea how.

[liberal japonicus]

Hmmm, a closet Mikado. Ouch.

(btw go up the link and you'll find midi files for all of the GS songs so it is possible to sing along at home. Please, however, do not tell your spouses I put you on to this)

[Catsy]

I forgot that one! List of Bloggers To Cover With Cool-Whip And Then Do Interesting Things To.

I certainly have such a list, but it'd probably be poor taste to post it publicly. :> Safer to quietly pine from afar.

[Anarch]

Anarch: it's actually more of an instrumental snippet (it's a live album, and this sounds like something they did between sets, included for fun.) But the renaissance 'So Ben Mi Ca Bon Tempo' is fun.

Speaking of instrumental snippets, I meandered through Amazon's collection of PDQ Bach snippets earlier this morning. "Eine Kleine Nichtmusik", which I haven't heard in almost ten years, still reduces me to tears of laughter in about ten seconds; I may have to go out and get the recording.

[Isha]

Hi I'm Isha...I'm representing extraordinary redention at the Model United Nations and I'm very serious and concerned about this topic.But I wanna ask how I can tell them at the MUN to put an end to this torture and put a stop to it diplomatically and tell them why it is bad in almost every way for not only the person and the nation concerned but the world as whole as well.
Thanx =)

[nickzi]

It seems that some bloggers have achieved their aim of disrupting a serious and honest discussion of extraordinary rendition, which I regret. Would it be unreasonable to remove off-topic, disruptive and offensive posts so that the thread can actually proceed as a discussion of an important issue? If a poster spend his or her time simply posting random quotes to the list to disrupt it, surely these would be removed.

On rendition, I think it should be remembered, from a US-centered perspective, that it has aroused immense anger and concern in Europe, (especially after remarks to the effect that the US can kidnap British citizens if it feels so inclined). This is, in my opinion, an excellent strategic reason for addressing rendition seriously.

I will go on record as thinking that rendition has been grossly abused, even beyond its general undesirability as part of the apparatus of any civilized state. If anything acts as a recruiting tool or focus of anti-US sentiment in Europe and globally, rendition, along with torture would have to be primary causes. Both clearly are flagrant human rights abuses as well as violations of international law. It hardly strengthens alliances, or good will, for the US to be both complicit and an active and eager partner in these activities.

[nickzi]

Sorry, "spent" not "spend".